Your Mind Matters – Beldon Haig, Masks Of Power Through Music

What is a normal child like? Does he eat and grow and smile sweetly? No, that is not what he's like. The normal child, if he has the confidence of his mother and father, pulls out all the stops in the course of time. He tries out his power to disrupt, to destroy, to frighten, to wear down, to waste, and to wangle. At the start, he absolutely needs to live in a circle of love and strength, which 'with consequent tolerance, if he's not being too fearful of his own thoughts and his imaginings, and to make progress in his emotional development.' This is a quote by the renowned pediatrician and psychoanalyst Dr. Winnicott, Dr. Donald Winnicott, who lived from 1896 to 1971. His observations of various babies and children gave rise to the theory of the good enough parent. This theory confirms and supports the natural instinct of a parent creating a stable and healthy family. This theory defended the good enough parent against a growing threat of intrusion into family life of the ordinary mother and father. This threat was being exerted by professional experts, and Winnicott stood against the concept of over-idealizing the parental role and ability in nurturing their children. He also recognized the value of a good mother against the devoted mother, or good father against devoted father. Of course, we know that every child is influenced by their parents, and his theory was not stated to condone the parent who did the bare minimum to raise their child, or the failure to discipline, feel, nurture, and care for the child. But it was against the overpowering mother or father who thought of nothing else but their child which would add to the psychological burden of the child. Like many child experts, Winnicott recognized that parents are not machines and perfection is impossible, but he placed value on minor parent misses because of their rich teaching and learning potential. And mothers must have been relieved to hear in the '60s that perfection was an unfair, unattainable, or moreover an unproductive goal. His theory was not giving parents carte blanche into neglecting their children, but to ease up on the tension of becoming the perfect mother, which is full of self-criticism, doubt, and self-reprimand in order to achieve the perfect child. The good enough parent fulfills their own lives enough to permit their child to observe the parents as role models and develop their own needs, their own needs to develop their own talents, to become the person who who stands on the shoulders of his giant parents. My guest today is Belden Haig, who is a comedy satirist, and we will discover his parents were more than just good enough. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska and can be found on www.mariakempinska.com, and this is Your Mind Matters interview, which— where I will be discovering how Belden's parents influenced him into becoming a world-renowned comedy singer-songwriter saturist. He has been causing a global stir by performing with masks of all global leaders. He has a million viral views on YouTube and over 200,000 followers on Facebook. Welcome, Belden Haag, and thank you for joining me today. Thank you. And, uh, tell me, let's start straight away with your singer-song— you know, you're a singer-songwriter. How did you get into that? Part of your life? Um, I've always done it. Um, so I think I first picked up a guitar when I was 10 years old. Um, and in fact, there's a bit of a pact between me and my parents, which was that we all had to learn. I come from a family with 4 children in it, and, uh, the, the, the idea was we'd all learn something for a year, and if we wanted to stick at that thing after the year, then, um, then my, my mom and dad would continue to support it. But if we wanted to give that thing up, then we could. So they wanted us to, to get invested into something else other than school, if you like, or, or sport. And, um, and so actually, um, my other siblings chose the piano, but I, I chose the guitar. And, um, I, I was writing poems at the time as well, and I found that, um, joining the, the guitar music and the, the poetry together worked pretty well for me. And, and, um, and I, and, and I very quickly just, um, found a sort of a home for, um, my, uh, my need to express myself. And so I, I, so I've always written songs, you know, um It's just something which I do. It's— I, I compare myself to the person who sits at the, the side of the, the, the harbor and always paints pictures. You know, it doesn't really matter whether this— the picture is good or bad or indifferent or a masterpiece or whatever. That person is going to do that painting every day because that's what they like doing. And the same with songs. I don't tend to judge them too much actually anymore. I just tend to tend to, uh, churn them out, um, because I like doing that. And then sometimes in, in moments of reflection, you, you look back years later and say, oh, I really like that one. Yeah, you know, and you, and you have the ones that, that you, that, that you are fond of. And but, but, but in the moment when you're doing them, you, you really like them all. And then it's, it's, it's like later on you sort of start sifting out what you think was the work that was the, you know, the better quality work, if you like. So you actually— so you started at 10? Yeah. Before we delve into your background, you actually have led a fascinating life because you've got two sort of strands to your life, but let's follow down the music route. Root for the moment is, uh, you actually were signed up to a label, is that right? Yeah, I was with BMG, um, in the '90s, and I was, um, I was, you know, various, various things that we did in a band called Box and Clever back in those days. We, we did a lot of touring, we played a lot of gigs, we did a lot of recording. You know, a whole bunch of sort of rock and roll stories. And actually, it was a massive amount of fun, you know. And still quite fond of the recordings that we did back in those days as well, actually. In fact, we dusted one down, which I'm going to release in about 3 weeks' time, which we— which was called Listen to the Rain. And I got it sort of slightly redone for today actually, but that's a totally different story. But yeah, and, but we started off being quite theatrical back in those days, you know, even performing with masks on and, you know, playing a mixed set of stuff which had a bit of drama, a bit of social content to it, social commentary to it, a bit of fun, but then gradually became sort of more morphed into a, a pop band. Um, and as, as people invest more money into you and things like that, you start— well, at least we, we became a little bit more influenced, if you like, by what people thought of us and started to churn out music which was probably a little bit more formulaic, I would say, you know, in hindsight. And I think that's a natural thing to do when, when you've got people who are backing you financially. You, you, you want to sort of repay their, their trust and faith in you. But whilst that's happening, you, you know, you— it does influence your output, you know. And I think that's— that was one big lesson that I learned through that period, was that, you know, um, that it, it was great and it was a real privilege to have been involved with with so many interesting people. But I guess what I do now is a bit less compromised. No, and also we're going to come on to that, but during that time when you were developing your sound, you did the— you were the frontman, so you were the singer, and were you the songwriter, or did you work in the band with that, or were the band supporting you? I think it's a mix of things, you know. So I, I, I, I, I, I, because I write a lot of songs, then, you know, I'm churning out a lot of material. But, you know, I'm always interested in collaborating with other, with other musicians and songwriters. And so, you know, there are other, there are other people as well who had a really strong influence on, on, on the music and, you know, sometimes the lyrics as well. But generally speaking, I would collaborate more where I'd get other people to help me arrange the music, but I would have the story because I see myself more as a— well, just as much as a storyteller as a songwriter. So I like music that tells a story, that has some sort of message in its core that might be a little bit unconventional, that might be a little bit sort of off the beaten track of what you normally listen to. You know, yeah, so it's quite interesting because as I read here, you know, sort of about Winnicott, when he talks about a child developing and the power of a child being able to disrupt and destroy, to, you know, to be able to frighten and to wear down something else. Is, is it our job, do you think, as human beings to come into the world and to make changes, or to make the appropriate changes in life? And music is a very big conduit for doing that, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, you know, I mean, I was fortunate in that I was, you know, able to get into Bob Dylan, um, you know, at a point when Bob Dylan was really probably totally in his prime. Yeah, you know, and, um, you know, I love Bob Dylan. I mean, Bob Dylan, the simplicity of— but at the same time, genius in, in what Bob Dylan writes is— had the— has the ability to be able to provoke you and, you know, stir you up emotionally, you know, and land a sort of knockout punch with a message all at the same time. And, you know, but he does it with such simplicity. And I think that, you know, that's where a song is a fantastic way to communicate a theme, a message, an idea, a philosophy. But it helps you also to develop the discipline to be able to try to put that into a sort of 3-minute format, which is not easy, you know. And so it's the hardest thing in the world to write a simple song, and it's, it's a lot easier to write a complicated one. Yes, totally. So you were at the height of where 3 minutes was part of— I mean, DJs just didn't listen to music if it was over 3 minutes. I think now they do, but at that time— Lucky, I think, if you get 2 and a half minutes now. I think now, yes, I think that it's even more, you know, the TikTok sort of generation are looking for it in sort of, what, 20 seconds or something, right? So you have to make an impact. Yeah, and I think that's not, you know, I think there's an optimum, isn't there, amount of time. I don't think 20 seconds is enough, you know, but it's interesting, it's an interesting discipline in terms of understanding what lands a punch, if you like, what actually does disrupt. And I think I personally believe that we have to disrupt because if you don't take it into your own hands to be a disruptor, then you leave that to everybody else to do it. And very quickly, other people can just take control of the message, you know, can take control of the whole agenda. And as we've seen, you know, in the last few years, um, very clever people, um, with very clever campaigns, you know, are able to be able to, to grab the oxygen, grab the conversation and use their own powerful means of disruption, not necessarily as a power for good, you know. So, so, I mean, I would like to think that I'm— I disrupt as a power for good, you know. That's, that's, that's my view of it. But, but I think that there are a lot of people who use disruption as a power purely for commercial gain, or purely for some form of gain, whether it be personal, political, whatever it is, you know. So I think it's about disrupting, you know, what's your intention? What's your intention when you disrupt? Is it coming from a good place? Yeah, and is it coming from a place that's not just selfish, not just for you? Because of course everything has to be a little bit for you because we are who we are. And this whole sort of— there's this whole movement towards narcissism, a movement that sort of seeks out the narcissist. But in a way, we all have narcissistic tendencies, and all babies are born with that narcissistic tendency. Of course, they would never grow if they didn't have that, but it's how our intention also feeds into the world that makes the world a better place. So this leads us very nicely to your upbringing and your parents that gives you that sort of, that, um, confidence to be disruptive. To allow you to have not only the talent— so, you know, nowadays more and more people are able to access music as a medium to communicate, but we're talking about slightly different lifestyles. So you've got a fascinating parent, you've got fascinating parents who are sadly no longer alive. But tell us about your— but, you know, when you were growing up, the influences that you had, what happened there? Um, so my Mom and Dad were kind of very much a sort of yin and yang type of thing, you know. My, my mother was, um, a disruptor massively, um, and she was a, she was a firecracker in terms of she, uh, she could be quite explosive, um, in terms of what she wanted to do. Um, she was very tough, she was very resilient, she was very creative. She's very articulate, and she changed the system when it came to female ministry because she was the first female priest in Scotland, and she had to sort of take on— well, I would not use that, I wouldn't say take on the system, but she had to change the system, and in doing that she had to use a variety of tools and, you know, and resources in order to basically influence and change that system. Um, and, um, you know, so she was involved with that journey, you know, throughout, um, throughout my childhood. So whilst I was in my teens, my mum was kind of really busy changing the world, which was kind of fascinating to see. Were you aware when you were growing up that your mother was doing this? I was aware that she was doing something that was controversial. I was aware that she was doing something which wasn't, um, wasn't in the sort of normal pattern of what people's mums do. Um, you know, I mean, being, being a female priest back then, I mean, they didn't have them, you know. So, you know, so the fact that she decided that she wanted to do that and that the fact that she decided that she was going to go ahead and make that happen was, you know, I suppose she was massively unconventional from that point of view. But then, you know, my dad was so kind of cool and accepting of it and supportive of it that— and so we thought, yeah, I mean, this is good, what she's doing. And we would, you know, of course we did. And But at the same time, she was our mom, and so therefore, you know, she did all the things that, you know, your mom does. You know, she's a great mom. She was really good. She was a really good cook. She was really good at running the sort of the, the household's expenses, if you like. We, we didn't have a lot of money, and so she was really good at making, making money, um, go pretty far, um. And they didn't tend to sit down and do your homework with you, you know, that wasn't the types of parents. And they were much more actually, you get your homework done yourself kind of thing. They were very good at sort of setting parameters about what it was you had to do and what it was that they would do. And they were pretty hands-off actually, you know, from that point of view and didn't really offer a lot, oddly enough, you know, of advice. You know, they would always, if you went to them with a problem, they'd say, what, well, what do you think you should do? Right. So there's a lot more of that sort of problem-solving approach rather than, okay, I'm going to tell you what to do. Yeah. You know, which actually is, you know, a fantastic art. I wish I was better at that myself. But where were you in— you've got there's 4 boys altogether, and what number are you? I'm, I'm the second oldest. Yeah, you're the second oldest. Yeah, so I've got an older brother. Yeah. And was he, you know, sort of the leader in the 4 boys, or did you find another child taking up leadership, or were you that leader? Oh no, I think, I think, I think my older brother was definitely the, you know, the, the one who was the the best at adopting that sort of leadership role. But that's often what happens with the firstborn, isn't it? You know, they're the first to learn the rules, and then they try and then they keep the other ones, you know, within the rules. What do they say? The first child, you know, follows the rules, the second child breaks the rules, and the third child makes the rules. You know, and what about the fourth child? Yeah, they just get pulled along. Well, yeah, I mean, this— I don't know, but they say that like the fourth child, or, you know, further down, you become very good at getting other people to do stuff for you. Absolutely. And that never changes, actually. It's funny, isn't it, with families, that whenever you have families and when you have family gatherings you always revert back to those childlike, um, hierarchy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it really is. Um, but I, I, you know, I think, I think having an insight into it is, is, is— yeah, it's good as well to see it for what it really is, in that, that actually life does change massively. But, um, the way I look at my siblings is they're you know, they're a massive resource because you're the strongest link that you'll ever have with your past. Totally. And, and people forget that, you know, but your, your, your siblings know you better than anybody else, you know. They've been with you for that whole journey. You might have got friends and, and, um, and lovers and, you know, partners and people like that that you meet along the way, but there's very few people that have been with you every single step of the way. And it's one of the reasons why I think it's so important to, to, to maintain that link and build and grow. You you know, build and grow it, um, because they, they can be massively helpful resource to you for you. And they know you, right? They've witnessed every trial, every tribulation, every little bit of ease and every little bit of wrangling that you've done in your life. They know you so well and how you've come through. And some people, you know, you have come through very difficult childhoods in many different ways, or experiences in their lives, and it's the brother or sister, the sibling, as you say, is the one that witnesses that and can actually comfort you through that. And through that ability to sort of see how you've grown and how you've developed. So do your siblings come and see you when you perform? Yeah, yeah, they do actually, if they're around. Yeah, I mean, they also give you the odd kick up the backside, don't they? Oh, do they? Yeah. How did they do that with you? Well, I think that's what you do, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that's your job, isn't it? They can kind of see through— they can kind of see through you a little bit as well. They know They know when you're kidding yourself on, yeah, and they're probably not afraid to tell you, whereas— and you may not be afraid to tell them. And there's an honesty to that which you don't always get, you don't always get, you know, with friends and other people that you meet along the way, you know. And especially you, I should think, you know, you didn't come from, you know, sort of, you weren't London-born, So to actually get signed up to BMG, which is at that time a very, very big label, so you must have become quite popular quite quickly. I don't know, I think that— I'm not sure about— when you look back on it all, I think that We had some really good songs and I think we— oh gosh, it's difficult to think back on that period of my life and figure it out actually. Because see, when you look back at yourself in your 20s, maybe this is just me, but you— I'm probably more critical than I should be, you know what I mean? And so, um, uh, and, and I think I look more at sort of, oh, I would change that, or I would develop that, or whatever, you know. I certainly— I think we never set out to be popular, but I think we just did loads of gigs. I mean, I think across about a 2-year period, we must have played something like 250 gigs. I mean, it was No, sorry, somebody told me it was like over a 3-year period. It was a bass player in the band, you know, told me this recently. So we were just very, very hard working. Yeah, but also you had to get the gigs to perform there. So you were really— I mean, Boxing Clever is a very famous name, isn't it? And it's such a great choice of a name. Yeah. Where did that come from? It came from Two things really. There's a Prefab Sprout song that uses it. Oh yeah. Yeah, which, uh, and, um, called When Love Breaks Down. And, and, uh, I think the lyric is something like, you know, and, and it's, it, it's actually talking about people boxing clever in relationships, which is sort of tiptoeing around each other a little bit. But at the time as well, it was a reference to how we wrote pop songs and we would try to throw the odd unusual chord in, you know, or the sort of odd unusual arrangement. So we would try to box a little bit clever with the music. And so again, if I'm being a bit critical of myself, I think there's a pomposity to that. Oh, there could be, there could be, but not necessarily so. Yeah, you know what I mean? So, so I think that, um, yeah, I mean, it certainly was a catchy name and yeah, and we wrote catchy songs. Yeah, and you were very well known. But coming back to songwriting, you know, it's quite interesting because when you sort of growing up and you want to be a songwriter, and I think lots of people want to be, lots of people obviously don't make it. And of course Bob Dylan being a master of songwriting and his songs are being covered by all sorts, including Adele, and made him— and he's coming back on tour, by the way, um, and he's still performing. But you know what's so amazing? You think songwriting is easy, but it is an art, isn't it, to actually craft a song? Absolutely, yeah. So you saying that you're trying to add something that is quite different to it means that you add your own little touch to it, your own tweak. So that's quite a good way to do it. Because if you sort of say you're writing an academic piece, you labor at an academic piece. It takes a long time. And a song is the same thing. People can make a fortune out of the right song, that just that one hit that can be the fortune maker for people that just never sing it. But there you were, and that's what you did. So where you're self-critical, it doesn't mean other people are. So you moved on from that. Now, uh, did you leave songwriting and start another career? You did start another career, or was that running at the same time? And do you want to tell us about that? Yeah, I, I started a business, um, in the, in, in, in the '90s, and I, I stopped performing and I stopped, uh, collaborating. I had a little studio in the house and I, and I, and I turned it into much more of a hobby for, um, for, for quite a long time, um, and it would just be something that I personally did myself whilst I sort of got this business off the ground. And so, you know, I developed a, you know, pretty successful training company, um, through, uh, through the '90s and 2000s. Yeah, um, and, and used a lot of the creativity, I think, uh, discipline that you develop through songwriting and through music, to brought that into, into the, the business that I, that I built up. Um, and, um, and yeah, I found a lot of the tools that you learn by being in a band, um, really apply well into, uh, into being in business. In fact, you know, as I saw on the news that Rishi Sunak was saying that he was going to get rid of all these degrees, or he was going to look at a way to not get rid of them but like phase out, you know, uh, degrees that, that, that, that, that don't help people's earning potential, right? And I thought, well, you know, the things that— thing— things that most improved my earning potential were actually I did a year in drama school, you know, um, and I played in a band, and I learned— I learned more about leadership more about creativity, more about being resourceful, more about negotiating, more about business creativity by learning those things than I would if I'd gone and done a 2-year accountancy course, you know, or a 3-year. And so I think that the sort of application of, you know, value judgments is fascinating. I do think though, don't you think, I mean, I agree with you because, you know, I've done a similar thing, not music, but you know, to act— but also to actually make it work in the real world, not just the academic setup, which is very cushioned. Or people read books and never know how to apply them. It's like, you know, thinking you can make a recipe, uh, you can make a meal out of a recipe without actually switching on the oven. You've— the oven is the furnace of life, isn't it? The oven is how we learn to make something really happen in the real world. So when you are putting your band together, You've got to actually put it on stage. The band has to be what they call tight. It has to really work together brilliantly and smoothly, and that takes a lot of time. But then you've got to perform, and people have to like you. And in a university setting or a college setting or a family setting, they don't actually have to like you because they love you anyway, so they're so pleased that you've done this. But in the real world there's a critical faculty that goes on between us and what we create, or the creator, and the audience who might like you or not like you. That's the hardest part, that's the furnace, isn't it? And that's what helps us develop. And I think that's the joy of actually making it when you are successful, and you were successful there, and you still are in various forms. We'll come to your success factor shortly, but as a performer I think it's the very big difference of what works for the audience and what works for the family, what stops being a hobby and starts being financially viable. Did that make it harder for you? Oh, make what harder? When you were actually in front of an audience trying to get the audience you had. You said you did so many gigs in front of an audience. It's very different than doing it for your family, isn't it? Yeah, and you know, sometimes the audience is one man and a dog in a village hall in Kinlochew, you know, and then another time you'd have, you know, hundreds of people, you know, in a gig in Manchester or something like that. And I think that's the other side of it, you know, the story of being in a band is, you know, it's got its ups and its downs, you know. And I think it's about, it's about really enjoying the ups actually, but also not getting too despondent about the downs, you know, almost seeing the funny side of it, you know. Yeah, very much you have to, you know. Yeah, that's interesting because you've translated all your experiences, as you say, to bringing a band together, and somebody has to almost rule that band unless you're so well-formed. I mean, it said like The Stones, I know Mick Jagger's always in charge of that, but he's kept the same team more or less together throughout the years. As Coldplay do, they keep together and they learn who each other, what strengths and weaknesses they have, and they choose different producers to work with. But it does take somebody to rule that band. Somebody has to be a lead singer. Somebody has to take if not actual control, they have to take performance control. And that's the same in your training, isn't it? Because you have to go through highs and lows in performance, whether you're at work or in day-to-day life. So how do you train people? How do you help people, say in sales— I know you do sales— to get up every day and continue even if they haven't made a sale for a long time? It's the same as anybody gets up every day and says, ah, what do I have to achieve today? Is that a good— what sort of questions should they ask themselves, or what statements should they make to develop a positive attitude? So, I mean, I think that I can use a metaphor of music if you want, you know, to sort of build on this a little bit. But I mean, the great thing about being in a band is that, you know, no one's making any money, you know. I mean, the, the vast majority of a lot of musicians don't really make very much money, you know. And, and, you know, despite the fact that, that, that we did pretty well actually from a sort of commercial point of view, we didn't really make any money, you know, um, because unless you really become a massive act, you know, then, then it's difficult. So when you're in that, when you're in that place people need to basically engage with it because they want to, you know, because you're not, you're not throwing thousands of pounds at people all the time to make them do it. So you don't have that, you don't have that resource. So, so about— so when you've got a group of people, say 5 people in, in the band, they, they need to believe in it. They really need to believe in what, what they're doing. So they need to believe in you as a person. They need to believe that, that you're taking it in the right direction, that, that you've got a vision, that you've got, that you've got some semblance of, you know, you know what you're doing, um, and, and that you're worthwhile being with. And I think that's the same thing with the company, it's the same thing in business, you know. Have you got the competency? You know, do you know where you're taking it? And do you have a vision for where it's going? If you've got a strategy behind it And, and, you know, does the band have good songs, right? Yeah, you know, so, so do you enjoy playing those songs? So like, so you translate that to a company. Well, have you got good products? You know, do you get, do you get good levels of customer satisfaction? Do your staff go home at night feeling like, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing here, you know, this is working well for me, you know, you know, is my, is the output good? Does it feel good when you do it? Or when you're playing the music, does it just not feel right? And people get that instinct to feel when, if they're in a job, does the job feel right for you? Does the team feel right? Is the team clicking? Is it communicating? Is it efficient? Does it feel like it's running well? Or just does it feel really clunky and not joined up and all that type of stuff, right? And these are real hygiene factors for people, you know, and quite often, you know, they'll go to work and they'll think, you know, is this— this isn't quite working for me, but don't really know why it's not working. But actually, if you bring it down to some of the basics, like, well, do you know where it's going? Do you know how it's going to get there? You know, your role in that, you know, and do you know what it feels like to be tight? You know, did you know what that feels like? And And you know what, when it's not tight, you know, what's the approach towards problem solving? You know, if it doesn't go well, what's the approach towards it? Is the approach to kind of run around, you know, looking for people to blame, or does everyone get around and just sort of break it down and figure out where it is that we need to improve? You know, is there a constructive approach towards that? And you learn that in music because because you can't throw money at things in the same way that you might be able to throw money at things, you know, in a corporation, you know. And you can't just swap people in and out in the same way that companies might think that they can just swap people in and out. You can't do that in the same way because you've, you've, you've developed a sound, right? And that sound is kind of something that's owned by everybody in the band, if you like, because there's a certain way the guitar player player plays this, and there's a certain way the drummer plays, and that, that helps you form— like you mentioned Coldplay— that helps form whatever it is that the sort of signature sound is. Yeah. And so you start to cherish what it is that people bring more, and then you start to kind of think about trying to understand them more because they're not quite so easy to replace. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean I don't even— what was— where did the question— no, I think it's— I think you've actually answered quite a lot of it because it's such a big question. Yeah. And, you know, you, you've hit on so many aspects to it. The, the, you know, the relationship between the individual and the team and understanding the whole process and where you sit within that process. Yeah. And your— the vitality of you as a component, you were saying, of the music. Yeah. Of that particular band that gave it its uniqueness, because each band has its own sound that is recognizable. And that's the same in a way for people within a family. So coming back to your early days in your family, as you said, that you were— when you had a problem, your parents would say, what do you think the answer is? How do you want to solve it? Do you think that helped you? Because, yeah, and, and do you think that having the balance between your cool, laid-back dad and your feisty, fiery, disruptive mother enabled you to see the world from those two so often opposing angles, which people very, uh, find it quite hard to actually navigate very often. But you actually had the embodiment of that in your parents. And your mother, as you say, was a disruptor. And you are a disruptor, um, in, in your own psychology, the way you do things, the way you approach things. And yet within that you still managed to train people to work together. Yeah, I think that, um, you know, my mum and dad would argue a lot, you know, and, um, but actually that was really instructive as well because, because they would, because they would argue, you know, they would talk things out. They, they didn't just kind of both throw in the towel and say, right, okay, well, you know, we're not going to keep doing this. They would argue. And, and so I think we kind of, you know, you would, you would look at that and think, right, well, you, you, you learn to solve problems sometimes, and you become comfortable with conflict a little bit as well. So I think you do have, you do have parents who, who are very different. Yeah. And my parents are very different, and that doesn't always lead to like perfect harmony. Sometimes it means that there are arguments, you know, but in the end you solve them. And I think if you observe that as a kid, then it helps you to understand, oh crikey, you know, you can have some fairly tough arguments going on, but you get to a solution in the end. And I think you sort of learn through that, you know what, there's nothing we can't solve, you know. It might feel like you've got to run away from things and there's no solution to this, but But, you know, you get, I don't know, a sense of that things are solvable even though they might appear to be difficult. So, you know, I think the influence that they brought in terms of my perspective on how you work with people is, you know, it was obviously completely accidental, you know, because, you know, well, not accidental, but it wasn't like there was a master there was a plan behind it and there was a sort of a whiteboard in the house that was all about parenting. It was a lot more instinctive than that. But I think they encourage us to own things, right? So what you, you know, if you think about what you said to me earlier about, you know, my dad and saying, you know, well, what do you think you should do? By having to come up with that solution yourself and then you own it more, You know, and it's the same thing in a band. You know, if you tell, if you tell the bass player exactly what to play, you know, then he's not going to love it so much. And anyway, you, he, he should be able to write a better bass line than me, right? So I can, I can give him some steer and give him some feedback, but in the end, you know, he's, he's— you've got to credit the, the individual contributors with the fact that they, that they are the masters of their instrument. And, and, and that if you take that away from them and you become too prescriptive and too dominant, then you'll take the fun away from it. But actually, you also take the magic away from it, because the magic comes from everyone making that contribution and having that sense of ownership and empowerment. And I think that translates to a business as well. You know, if you, if you're too heavy-handed in how you, how you, and too strict about the processes and, and everything that everyone has to follow, you just take away someone's ability to be an individual and to bring their own creativity and their own answers into a situation. Same thing being a parent, you know, whilst you want to be able to offer good advice to your kids, there's times when you should just stand back and let them discover it for themselves because they're the ones that are gonna have to own it. And do you think, because you've been very successful and you seem to have The Success Gene, which we'll come to. But you are— do you think that aspect of instinctively knowing when to lead and when to let go is part of the skill of being a great leader? I think it's a constant debate that you have as a leader, because there are times when you need to intervene, um, and we've all got different leadership styles. And so, you know, I think it's an awareness of it is really important, an awareness that if you're overly controlling, you'll create a situation where nobody can really talk to you because they're afraid of what you think and afraid of being judged and afraid that their well-meant comments will be interpreted in the wrong way, you know. And so, and you see that a lot, obviously, in lots of different businesses. You see people who are really just afraid to not toe the line, or what's considered to be toeing the line. And then, you know, and that— so I think it's a constant work of care as a leader to actually be asking yourself the question about whether you're— whether— and also, it's very easy as well to be completely hands-off as a leader and abdicate responsibility and say, well, I'm empowering and I'm trusting, and you know what, if they make mistakes left, right, and center, it's, you know, that's because I'm an empowering leader. The buck stops with you as a leader. So, you know, it's all very well saying, well, I'll be totally hands-off, but then if the performance that night as a band is just dreadful because you haven't pointed anything out in the rehearsal, you've got to look to yourself. So, you know, a leader has to set standards as well. So you've got this constant sort of challenge about, are you setting the right standards? Are you maintaining those standards? Are you keeping the right tempo going? You know, is everyone performing in the way that, that, you know, is in line with strategy and the vision? Great. But there's got to be room as well for that individual expression and and that individual ownership. It's a balancing act. And do you think— this is a big question, actually, but combining your knowledge as a leader, whether it's in music or in your businesses, which have both been successful, super successful, uh, let's go through that sort of the area of mental health. When, if somebody feels depressed that they can't get out of bed and the world's you know, just against them all, there's no place for them. How— what is the self-talk you would advise people to have? Is there something that can engage people that they just can galvanize themselves to get up and get out? Because you're a self-starter, both of you. All your work has been created by you, whether it's your band or your business. So you need to be able to get up every day and have that faith that something good is going to happen. 'or there is going to be something that is worthwhile.' What is the self-talk that people could engage with? I think I'm inherently an optimist, you know, and, um, but I, you know, like anybody else, I've had periods in my life where I've been fairly pessimistic and got myself into situations where I'm not happy with the way I'm talking to myself. And but, um, because I, I, um, I like to consider I'm pretty open-minded about where I look for help myself, you know. I think that's the first thing to recognize is that you— we, we, you know, I wouldn't have learned to play guitar if I hadn't had a guitar teacher, you know. In fact, in fact, I had two guitar teachers, um, um, but but, um, not at the same time, but, um, but, you know, and then various other people who've given me tips and all of that along the way. So it's about recognizing that, you, you know, we don't know everything, and, and we, we need to be able to, um, seek advice, seek support, seek help. So when it comes to my own mental health, I'm, I'm, and I've tried a whole variety of different approaches, you know, to maintain it actually, and to keep healthy, and to keep a certain level of energy and optimism and creativity, which I consider to be at the level I want to perform at, if you like, as a— just as a person, you know. And I suppose what I've learned in that time is that I've learned to confront, to to, to, to be able to look at any of the sort of, um, uh, fears, um, that, that I needed to face, you know, in life. I, I've learned, I think, to address certain embedded messages that might be in there from, um, from things that happen to you when you're young, which, which, which end up sort of in your subconscious which again you, you need to sometimes have a conversation with because, because I think, you know, say, say you're bitten by a dog when you're 6 years old and then you develop a fear of dogs. It's not actually that logical, but, but, but in fact you can see where it came from, but it's potentially holding you back in your life and it can affect other areas of your life. So, so I think it's, it's worth addressing some of your subconscious fears. And it's worth staying open to, to anything that you feel actually nourishes you and gives you the right kind of energy in your life. And yet, you know, helps you to, to feed positive thoughts in, in your head, you know, and, and reduce negative thoughts, actually, because that there's— there are You know, that's in our control. What we think about is in our control, you know, and sometimes it feels like it's not, but ultimately it really is. Because I mean, if you can't control it, who can? Yes, so true. Yeah, so I think first of all, recognizing that your self-talk is completely in your control and how you can how you can hijack the negative thoughts and, and take them in into a positive place. And whether that's through music or sport or, um, meditation or whatever it might be that works for you. And I think everyone's got to find their own way with that, you know. Yeah. And I think what you've actually addressed here also is powerful. It's not just the incidents that happen at home or within the family setting. There's incidents that can happen outside that can affect you in a big and what you've addressed. So if you've been bitten by a dog at 6, it does have a knock-on effect, or can have, that is bigger and greater than we anticipate, because everything is amplified when we're very young. And it doesn't mean that the parents could have stepped in or made it right. But your disruptive ability has not only worked for you in training— and if we had more time, we'd go into a lot more about this— but here you are performing and in your performance you are satirizing leadership without going into the particular politics. Yeah, you are satirizing powerful leaders here, and that in itself needs to have a certain approach and a certain understanding of leadership because you are actually taking a pop at other leaders. You're not just doing it from a position of you know, sort of a schoolboy type of, oh, I hate dominance and I hate leadership. You're doing it in a very highly intelligent and sophisticated way. What should a leader be? Now, you've already said that in terms of music, uh, you've talked about, you know, changing the education system. What do you think a leader should be in this modern age that we're not getting? And you've got a powerful understanding of this. Um, they should have a vision. I mean, you know, I, I think what we're getting at the moment is bread and circuses. Okay. You know, they— we're not getting people with a long-term plan. We're getting some— we're getting people who will tell us what we need to be doing for the next 6 months, and, uh, you know, here's what 'Here's what we'll give you right now.' And if you think about that just from a point of view of parenting, it's just ridiculous. And, and yet, you know, people are voting for that, you know. And so it— what, what I find fascinating about, about the current approach towards leadership is it's so short-term. Yes. You know, I, I would, I would— I think we're crying out for somebody that says, 'You know what, this is going to take about 10 years, but here's how we're going to do it. Yeah, we're going to address the really big issues that, that we face, like climate change, you know, because we absolutely have to, you know. But what, what we're getting is, whilst we're in the middle of all of these myriad of crises at the moment, we're getting people who say, all right, well, we're going to give you a tax cut. Yeah, yeah, great. Okay, we'll vote for that. But what about the spiritual nature of change? Uh, and your mother was quite— obviously she was a priest. As you say, there is a sort of an understanding in the spiritual nature of change, right? And how effective do you think people could be if they engage and understand the spiritual nature of change, but also using that to affect change in a good way? You know, that everybody is united on one level, and I think the more globalized we become, the more we are aware that globally each spiritual sort of doctrine, if you like, or understanding has a connection that we're all rooted in humanity and that we could move forward effectively if we recognized our connection. Do you think that could play a bigger part if you became a spiritual connector and leader? I think that a lot of the leaders that we've got at the moment have hijacked certain, of certain parts of this, the, the way you connect with people. So they, they— that you get these dog whistles which are blown, which actually hijack people's, um, decision-making. So, so they confuse, you know, oh, I like the way that person speaks, you know, they're speaking directly to me, you know, they're feeling, they're feeling a spiritual connection, right? The, the, the, the, the individuals are feeling spiritual connection. Individuals felt a big spiritual connection with Donald Trump. They said, you know, he communicates directly to me. I, I feel like he's somebody that I can have a, you know, have a drink with or whatever, right? So, so they're feeling that as a voter, they're feeling a spiritual connection. But the real issue for me is about the systems. Yes, and that's what I mean, because the systems, yeah, are over and above the individual, really, aren't they? Yeah. So, you know, what we've got at the moment is systems that aren't working, it's whole systems, it's whole systems of government in the world, you know, which just are not working right. And I feel that the conversation needs to be elevated towards countrywide and global systems that need to change, because otherwise what will happen, we're having this continuous sort sort of petty bunfights where mudslinging is more important than actually our progress as a society. Yeah. You know, even actually the, you know, even actually the survival of mankind seems to have been stuck on the back burner. Well, you know, we can talk about nuclear war because that's fine. You know, we're sort of used to discussing that now. I'm sitting there thinking, What are we on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that is— but you know, interestingly enough, you're dealing with very high-powered people when you do your performance now. As you say, you wear these masks and things. Bullying— do you feel that we are in the world of leaders that are bullies as opposed to leading? And do you think, what is the art of leading with a spiritual bent to it as well? As you've said, you've got to be self-aware. Vigilant, you've got to be aware of what you're doing. Do you think people have the capacity to do that? It's a worry actually that it's so hard to take on the system, you know. I think that's, to my mind, that's a worry for all of us, is that— and the system is also leading to corporations globally becoming more powerful than governments. And again, another really good reason why we need to look at systems change when you've got governments that are afraid of corporations. But, you know, that's not a new thing, but it's something that certainly needs to be addressed. And so I think the big challenge for leaders today is like, I mean, they need a massive amount of resilience because they're really up against it. You know, I mean, if, if you want, if, you know, to be a— and I'm sure that there's, you know, most political leaders, I would imagine, are pretty well motivated, pretty decent people actually, um, because they get into politics because they want to do good, right? You know, I mean, I know we can, we can knock them all day long and, you know, we don't like which side they're on, but, you know, generally speaking, I would think most Most people probably go into politics in this country because they're well-meaning, right? And, but, you know, it must be difficult for you to be able to maintain that level of good intention, you know, when faced with so much aggression, I think, from, you know, from either corporations or other governments or just generally what's happening in the the world. So I think in terms of what makes great leadership, it's got to be the sort of qualities that Nelson Mandela, you know, uh, with his absolute resilience, his ability to be able to stick at something and stick with his core beliefs no matter what is thrown, has been thrown at him. And, and I, I think, you know, that's, that's, you know, it's a, it's a big ask, isn't it? It is a big ask, you know, and It's interesting because Nelson Mandela has been, you know, sort of put up on a pedestal, but he himself knew the turmoil that he had to get through, the disruption, the violence that he at some point engaged in and removed himself from. And almost by being locked away for all those years— I think it was 25 years— he had time to reflect, and that reflection had to be spiritual. Do you think if people really understand humanity, that the ability to be self-reflective and to have a spiritual understanding of your role as a leader gives you that ability to be resilient? I think it's a huge advantage. Yeah. I think it's a huge advantage if you like believing in the power of good, for example. I mean, my parents were both religious, you know, and I was, I was brought up in, in a religious environment. I'm not massively religious myself, but, but I, I benefit massively from the fact that I, that I was around that a lot, uh, when I was young. And, you know, and I, and I believe in, in a power of good, and, and I believe in having that as part of my spiritual core.. And I think that's some— that is a resource which you, which you can always utilize. And, and in moments of doubt, you can go to that as your sort of true north. You know, this is, this is what I should be doing. This is what a good decision looks like. This is what doing the right thing means, you know. And so I think, um, I think that's a big a big privilege actually to have had that personally, and I think it's worth nourishing. And that's wonderful to hear that about, you know, your vision of leadership with your experience. And can you just, before we finish, just remind everybody the name of your band? Well, it's Belden Hague. Belden Hague. Belden Hague. Yeah, Belden Hague, and we are a band. We, you know, we perform you know, relatively frequently. And we are, you know, on social media, YouTube, iTunes, Amazon, all those places. Got a new single just out called, um, Old Black Eye. And Old Black Eye actually is about, um, yeah, it covers some of the things that we're talking about now, but it's about rivalry, you know. Um, and it's about rivalry with others and battle with yourself. Yes, absolutely. But it's, um, hopefully it's an empowering, uplifting kind of song which looks at a sort of interesting topic, you know. Amazing. Golden Hague, this is Your Mind Matters. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska. Thank you so much for engaging in this interview discussion, telling us about your life and what influences you and how you influence the world, and I'm so pleased that you're doing that. It's been a real pleasure and real privilege, and, um, you know, I'd love to come back soon. Definitely, definitely, I'd love that. Thanks a lot, Maria. Thank you, thank you, thank you.