Your Mind Matters – Anshu Bahnada, Healing Child With Cancer

'Every man or woman who is sane, every man or woman who has the feeling of being a person in the world and for whom the world means something, every happy person is in infinite debt to a woman.' This is a quote from the pioneering psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott on the mother's contribution to society. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska, a psychoanalyst and business entrepreneur, and this is Your Mind Matters. You can contact me on www.maria-kempinska.com. The themes I'm covering with my guest today is the mother-child relationship, along with the story of a very ill child and how that made an impact on the child, the mother, and of course the family. But before I start my interview with Anshu Bahanda, I will give you an overview of some of the theories that are the basis of this particular interview. 'Why Love Matters' by Susan Gerhardt explains that a loving relationship is essential to brain development in early years and how these early interactions can have lasting consequences for future emotional and physical health. An attentive, loving mother reads the signals of her child. The mother understands the pre-verbal signs that an infant communicates to arouse attention of the carer. If these messages are not listened to, then stress increases. When your child is ill, it's often the mother who is the one who lays in hospital with the infant, protecting and connecting with their baby. It is the bond between the mother and child that has been proven to help in the healing of the child. It is in these moments of experiencing the wound that the wounded become the healer. The figure of the wounded healer in Jungian psychology takes on a profound significance for those in the healing professions. As an archetype of the collective unconscious, the wounded healer represents patterns of initiation and healing. When Carl Jung spoke of his interest in ancient patterns found in myths and legend, he was not simply regressing back to older obsolete ways of thinking. He understood the gods of legend to represent the psychological patterns through which healing energies may flow if they are treated with the same respect that the ancients once accorded the gods themselves. These are now represented in the variety of healing modalities. And Anshu Bahanda, through her own experience, which we will talk about shortly, has begun her own podcast called Wellness Curated. The aim for Anshu is to share information about health and wellness so that audiences can help themselves and their community of family and friends. Welcome, Anshi. Can you please begin by telling us what occurred in your life for you to begin looking into the healing therapies? Thank you, Maria. What a lovely introduction. Um, so when my daughter was 1 and a half— my older daughter, who now thankfully is 25 years old— um, she was diagnosed with leukemia. And at that point in my life, that was really— I mean, that was really devastating for me because I knew nothing about cancer. There was no family history of cancer, so I didn't know what it meant for her. She had 2 years of treatment where she got quite sick with the chemotherapy as well. Because I guess, you know, a child who's 1 and a half years, chemo is very, very strong for them. So we had, uh, different stages during those 2 years where we didn't know what next— what the next day was going to be like. But we made it through that. She's well. But what happened as a result of that was that she had a lot of— after the 2 years of treatment She was left with a lot of side effects from the chemo that we had to deal with, one of them being that her liver was badly damaged. Um, and it took us about 13 years to deal with those side effects. And that's how my path of trying to find healers and therapists and experts so that we could get all kinds of toxins out of her body That's where my path started. And in the process, what happened was that I started— uh, people started asking me for help. So I started connecting them to different people all over the world. So I started connecting someone whose child was not well, or someone whose parent wasn't well. And somewhere along the way, I realized that there was a need to do this beyond just my friends and family and their friends, you know. And that's how I started Wellness Curated. It's a way of— sorry, sorry, it's a way of— it's a way of trying to empower people with health and wellness so that— and what we always say is so that they can then go out and empower others. Yeah, absolutely. And, and before we go into any more detail about empowering others and everything you've discovered. How— where were you living? What was your life before you had children? So I grew up in India, and I grew up in quite a spiritual, uh, family in India. And when you grow up in a country like India, almost by osmosis, you absorb lots and lots of healing and therapies and yoga and fasting and rituals, which are actually very— you know, a lot of the rituals have very scientific basis from the Vedas. So I grew up in India, then I went to the US to study, and then I met Sandeep, my husband, who lives— who lived in the UK. So that's how I came to be in the UK. And what did you study? I, I love the, you know, sort of Ayurvedic uh, remedies, you know, so the way of thinking. And also they talk about body types, you know, uh, kapha, pitta, and so on. And, you know, so it's something that a lot of people are now beginning to see the benefit of a lot of those teachings. And that's— and, um, you know, I'm sure that has inspired you. And that's a lot to say. So you went over, and what did you study when you were in the States? So I did my bachelor's in India, was in economics, and my master's was in computer science. And then I went on to be a consultant, and then I went on to the banking world. So it was a very different start to where I am today. It's quite an interesting journey you've had, and I do believe in the journey, the soul's journey, which is very different from what we think our journey should be. Absolutely. Do you feel that, that you've been taken on the correct journey for you now? Yes, I, I now feel that at this point in my life, this is what my purpose is. Yeah. And this literally happened just before lockdown, uh, where I— for years I've been thinking, how can I help beyond my friends and family? And I'm not— and I'm not a social— and I wasn't a social media person at all. Like, if one of my friends would post my photograph, I would call them and say, please take it down. You know, I used to feel like, oh my God, this is an invasion of my privacy. So finally, I was at Viva Mea, which is a medical spa in Austria, which is like a health resort and medical spa, in February 2020. It was before the pandemic hit us. And that's when I did my first Instagram post on— or, you know, I started this page called Wellness Curated, and I did my first post about, you know, trying to just opening up the platform to anybody who was interested. Um, so that's where my— I mean, that's where I decided, after a lot of sort of toing and frothing and thinking, how do I do this? I thought, well, social media does reach people. If I want to help people, If I want to help everyone and anyone who needs it, how do I do it? It would probably— that's— so I started an Instagram, and then we went on to doing weekly talks with experts and therapists, which later became podcasts. So we started doing weekly podcasts. So now we do weekly podcasts and we live stream them on YouTube, so people can register to be part of the podcast as well. And that is such a detour, isn't it, from where you thought you first began? But yes, I always believe, looking back at my life, and I've done lots of different things, that they all lead you to a road that you're meant to be down, that nothing that you learn is wasted. And I say this a lot to a lot of my clients that think, you know, what am I doing here? Why am I here? Why am I sort of doing this work? Or why have I taken this journey? Or I've been in no man's land for so long. And I said, there's a reason for all of that. You will find out later. You've just got to have trust and faith that you will make the most of this, that this will become apparent to you later on. But how did you, in your early days with your daughter being so ill, how did you find your faith, trust in life to keep going and to help her get through her terrible, terrible illness? So I always knew deep down And, you know, I don't know if it's mother's intuition, but I always felt like— I felt like this child is here for a purpose and I'm here for a purpose. So we'll both be fine. Because there were times in those 2 years where I didn't know that, you know, whether I would be able to survive those 2 years when she was going through treatment. Absolutely. How did you survive? What did you cling on to? How did you get through those? I mean, it's a— it's heartbreaking. It's devastating, isn't it, for a mother to find that your child is so ill with something like leukemia that is so hit and miss, you know, and so deeply devastating? How did you clean— you know, it actually— that's where my journey started with gratitude, because we were at Great Ormond Street Hospital, and when I saw the children around, I actually was grateful. I mean, it's a really weird thing to say, and people look at me and think I'm crazy, but I would— I would— I was grateful to the universe that she just had ALL, the kind of leukemia which was easier to deal with. But it was heartbreaking to talk to other mothers and hear their stories. So, you know, no matter where you are in life, it taught me that there's always, always there's always something to be grateful for, no matter how hard you think your situation is. The fact that we're even having this conversation, or someone's being able to talk, because who knows what tomorrow is going to bring. So it's— there's always something to be grateful for. And that's what really, I think, helped me. And what is the victories? And what is your spiritual belief, Anshi? So I, I grew up, like I said, in a very spiritual family, and In India, we would, you know, so there was, there's a spiritual belief and there's a religious belief, but the way we were brought up was we were taken to every, we were taken to temples, we were taken to churches. I went, I was, I studied at a convent, so I went to the church every day. And then we were taken to gurdwaras, we were taken to mosques. So we were, we were brought up to believe that, you know, there is, there is a power out there, and it doesn't matter what path you take towards that power. So it was about connecting to the universe, which is probably, you know, the way to put it. And that's what I tried to do. I mean, there were times during those 2 years when my daughter was going through treatment where it wasn't easy, and, you know, there wasn't even that second to sit down and try and meditate or pray. Because you're always doing things which you, you know, you think are going to keep the child going, or you're so busy in hospital. But there was always this deep belief deep down, and I'm telling you, gratitude. It was the little wins. It was, you know, seeing her smile. It was seeing her being able to get out of bed and walk one day. It was the little wins that I was just so grateful for. It was every time she would go through treatment. It was like, you know, after that when she would start start coming back to normal, when her hair would start growing back. It's being grateful for the little, little things. I think that's what kept me going. And you are now in the UK, and how did you cope? Were your parents in India? So my mom was here, luckily. My mom sort of has this routine where she spends most of the time in the UK and she goes to India for winter, so that really helped me. The fact that, you know, she was here and she was like a pillar of strength, and she would always, you know, I mean, all night I'd be with my daughter Ananya in hospital. So in the morning she would come and say, okay, go home and sleep. So I would get 4 or 5 hours of uninterrupted sleep because I knew she was with the child, and then I would go back. Yeah, so coming, and as if you're talking to people who may be experiencing this as they're listening, how, what sort of help can you advise them to have around them? What support? Should they have, should they look out for? So they need to look up— you need to— so what I did, that I can only tell you from my experience, so what I did that time was my husband and I decided one of us needs to go out and earn a living, which he decided would be him, which we decided would be him, and one of us needs to totally focus on the child and treat this like a project. So, you know, there was a lot of people around us getting emotional. There's people crying, there's people saying, how can this happen? We said, we've got it, you— we've got it. That's all noise. We've got to, you know, just focus on getting the child back. Yeah, the people who will be touchy, then, you know, there's a lot that goes on in a situation like this because people love the child, right? You know, the grandparents, the aunts, the uncles, everyone loves the child, you know, family, friends, everyone wants to help. But we decided we would treat, treat this as a project, and only what's going to work for that project. We're literally going to treat it like— and focus and make sure that she gets all the best treatment, the best alternative therapies, the best medication. And anything that doesn't work, we will cut that out for the moment. And you know, it's heartbreaking sometimes because there were times when her immunity would be low and friends would travel from out of town to see her. We would just get a blood result that her immune system is low, you know, that her— so we would say to them, you can't see her. And they will be, you know, there were people who would have traveled in from different parts of the UK, people would travel in from India, and we'd say, sorry, you can't meet her. But then obviously you have to think of the child first. And because I like, you know, what you're saying, but when you were talking about, you know, sort of people were loving but you had to cut out the noise, you weren't being disparaging towards emotion. What you were trying to do was understand what you absolutely had to focus on, and that had to be the well-being of your child. And although other people were loving and caring not everybody has to be there to show their love and care, because the feeling of love and care, like the power of prayer, travels, doesn't it? It can. Absolutely. It can. You don't have to be with the child to think of the child and to actually make an impact on the healing of a child. Absolutely. But where it is crucial, as you say, is to do with the parents, how you as parents looked after your child, and also that you were giving— given some support from your mother that you trusted, that you could say, yes, it's okay, it's my mother, she can take over now. You didn't have to question anything about her. You just knew that her love was there, her intention was to look after your daughter, her granddaughter. And how powerful that whole setup is. So in a way, your economic and analytic brain, and both yours and your husband's, both helped you with this. Didn't it? Yes, and there, you know, it's not, uh, the thing was that we wanted her to have lots of people, family and friends around her, but for those 2 years, very often her immunity was so low, they would do her bloods every week almost, sometimes more often, and her immunity was so low that there were times that literally she could only be exposed to as few people as possible, and What that taught us was you learn to be grateful for little things. When we took her for a walk, sometimes you would be grateful for being able to take the child for a walk because she's not allowed to leave that room otherwise. And so for her, that stimulation to be able to see the outside world as well is important, isn't it? Yes. So it, it just taught me to appreciate little simple things that, that we just take for granted. Going for a walk is something that, you know, we don't even think about twice. But being able to take that child outside the room, I was so grateful for it. But also what you're— what I'm hearing from you, because this is natural to you, Anshu, this is who you are as a family, how you work together, is that you all coordinated together. You spoke about it, you set a plan. And I think that's so important when it comes to children. It doesn't matter whether they're ill or not. It's if couples can work together to create a plan. Yes, to have the loving energy around, but also what actually works between you and for that child is so important. Yes, absolutely. And you know what, I think I'm very, uh, grateful at that point that I had my mother who, who fell in, uh, fell in line with any decisions that my husband and I make. Because I sometimes look around me and it's not easy because, you know, sometimes everyone wants to run their— you know, sometimes you have grandparents or aunts and uncles who have very strong opinions, but you can't have everyone running the child's life. It's only the parents. And sometimes when you have to deal with chemo and sort of extensive medicine schedules and, you know, things like that, What— literally one person has to do that, and we decided that'll be me because my husband had to go and work. But your mother listened to you and you had that wonderful communication with her. Yes, well, she said that really helped. Yeah, because you have to have that message coming through quite clearly, and it has to come from the mother to the child, because unless there's something wrong with the mother, very often it's the mother who holds in a way the health of the child, and that ability to communicate has to come from the mother. So that's an amazing way that you did this. It's, uh, very powerful. So how did you get through— how— now let's begin on the healing trail that you started with your daughter for her liver. How did you go about that process? So that we had a lot of side effects, so she reacted fairly— I would, for lack of another word, I would say her body reacted fairly violently to the chemo. So we had liver issues, she got balance issues. They were worried she developed something called— I think it was called dyspraxia, where she would lose her balance. And they said, we don't even know if she'll ever be able to do things like driving. You know, I'm in touch with the child that just passed her driving exam. She's totally fine now. So You know, thank God for that. But there was a lot of side effects that we had, and there was— and some of them didn't have cures, so to say, in the medical world. Like the liver, I was told, they said the liver might heal itself, it can heal itself, but we don't know. So that's when I started out on this journey of trying to find experts and healers, because I was determined that this child will have a normal life. And that, you know, we, we're going to sort things out. I don't know, it was just some deep down belief that she's here for a reason. But also you have to activate that, you have to manage that, you have to enable that thought to— you have to act on it in itself and find the people. What's your daughter's name? Is that okay to ask? Yes, of course. Her name is Ananya. Ananya, how lovely. Lovely name. Um, and Ananya, so when you started looking for all these remedies and therapies and all the people, you then had to decide what was working and what wasn't working. And how did you cope with trying to keep her as now a normal child enjoying life in the normal way? And so— sorry, sorry, no, and all her learning as well, because she's now at university, or she's just finished. Very bright girl. She's gone through all this, but you had to keep her on track as a normal person whilst dealing with all these therapies and remedies. How did you do that? So as soon as she was— you know, when her blood counts would be okay, we would send her to school so that she would be able to interact with other children, because she spent so much time in hospital that we didn't just want her to have an isolated life. And just trying to get her to— just not trying to treat her differently from other kids. And I remember a friend of mine, once we were on a trip in India, and she said that to me. And it, it makes me quite emotional to think about it now. She said to me, you don't mollycoddle her or treat her any differently from, you know, the other kids around. And I said, but I try so hard not to do that. Because, you know, people said to me, oh, you won't be able to take her to India again because, you know, keep her in the UK near the doctors. I was like, no, nothing doing. This child is going to lead a normal life. She's going to be the way she was before. Um, and I was also here as well, where the support of my family and friends was incredible. So anyone who would hear about a therapist or a healer would come and tell me about it, and then I would go and try them first on myself. And if I felt it would work, then I would take them to Ananya. So whether it was an Ayurvedic doctor whether it was an acupressurist, whether it was an energy healer, whether it was a nutritionist. That would be our pattern. I would try them on myself. If I felt it would help, then I would take Ananya to them. And she's been all over the world, and she's tried all kinds of therapies. Now she's just like, Mom, leave me alone, just let me be. Now, of course, I can't get anything done to her for the moment. The therapies, yes. But you know, she knows when, when she's, uh, when she needs anything, she says, Mom, can you activate all your people, as she calls them. She calls them my people. So even now, if she's not feeling well, she's like, can you activate your people and get me sorted? So even if it's something like a cough or a cold, she thinks I can wave a magic wand. And what is she studying? Who Which she went to UPenn in the US, University of Pennsylvania, uh, to do urban planning. Okay. And then she was working with a consulting company here. Now she starts in October with a company called Palantir, which is a tech company, so which she's very, very excited about. We're excited for her. That's wonderful. Thank you. And, um, you've got some more children now, haven't you, as well? You've got other children. And what's the age gap between Ananya and your other children, or other child? So I have another daughter, a younger daughter, Amara, and there's a 5-year age gap between the two of them because Ananya was 1 and a half when she started treatment. She was 3 and a half when she finished treatment, and she was actually desperate for a sibling. Yeah. So at that point, we were so kind of overwhelmed with where life was taking us. But she would go every morning— do we have a little temple at home? She would go every morning and pray for a sibling. So at some stage we decided we have to have a second child sooner rather than later. So because, because of, because of her, sort of, she would say— and then she would start praying, and then she would start praying louder if she's seen us coming so that he could influence us into giving her a sibling. And what does Amara do? Is she at university now? Yes, so Amara's at university in the US. She's at New York University, at NYU. And what's she studying there? She's studying media and communication. Oh, perfect. Yes, that makes sense, doesn't it? Yes, so it sort of synchronizes with you. How important is it for parents to keep in communication with each other, to be on the same page? So when they're going through the treatment, I think we were very lucky that we managed— both of us managed to be on the same page, because it's very, very hard. I mean, it's one of the hardest things you do. And I remember a doctor friend of us saying to us, you know what, it'll either get you really close together or you're both going to just drift away from each other. Um, and so you— and you have to make that time for yourself. It's very hard. You're in hospital, how do you make time for yourself, right? But even, you know, again, if you had half an hour to have dinner with each other, again, that was something that was so precious. It taught us to value that. If Sandeep and I, my husband and I, even had that half an hour where we could go from the hospital to eat together and, you know, leave someone with her, that was so precious. But your husband must have a similar view to you, does he, about children, values, same spiritual belief? Yes, we do. Yeah. Is that also what connects you? So I guess, I think, uh, intrinsically, we're very different as people, you know, like I'm into art and he's into, um, football. That's a very good example. So yeah, it's a The, you know, but I think we enrich each other's lives. Also, our values are very similar. Yes. And our spiritual beliefs are very similar. And that's— we both— yep, yeah, yeah, sorry, go ahead. You were saying we both— we both come from worlds where, you know, a lot of it is about helping people. Yeah. And involving, you know, and taking people along with you, empowering people along with Yeah. And that, you know, and that I think is a huge factor connecting us. Yeah, I really believe in that. And I remember talking to a young, actually Indian couple before they got married, and, uh, one of the young man— and they were both absolutely stunning and just love— in madly in love with each other— and he said, is it okay if we love each other first and then we can do things for everybody else? And I said, absolutely. I love that. I know it's very sweet, but it was important for them because in the aspects, you know, I'm not going to eulogize about any culture. My parents are Polish, and it's almost, you know, sort of within a culture there are certain amazing aspects of each culture. So if we're talking about the amazing cultures of the Hindu or Indian countries, you know, sort of the aspects of it is that, that you do for yourself, then you do it for us, and then you do it for the other. And I think that's so powerful. And I do think that if couples don't have that same understanding, if you go into a marriage and if one is pulling one way and one is pulling another, and one is saying, no, this is all for me, I've got to be looked after, or the husband is saying, well, why are you looking after the child you know, and you're not looking after me. It's, um, it's very difficult, you know, to look after your children properly. So you really do have to have the correct values. So Maria, I'm going to take it a step further. I'm going to say there's something that I learned when I was going through my daughter's treatment, or when my daughter was going through her treatment, was that the first person you need to look after is yourself, because you cannot You can't pour from a cup that's empty. It took me years and years and years to get over what I went through when she was in hospital. And I didn't know at that age what I know now, probably, is that I had to look after myself. Because at that point, I was just thinking of looking after her and any spare time, you know. And then Sandeep and I were really lucky that we prioritized ourselves as much as we could as a couple, but I forgot about myself in the process. Well, I can't imagine how much pain and the trauma of that pain, because just finding out from that moment must have been very traumatic. So you find out and then you've got to act on it, and you're on high alert, which is what PTSD gives you, isn't it? That high alert hypervigilance. And when your child is ill, you have got that hypervigilance for extra periods of time. When did that actually go? When did you— did you notice that you were relaxing a little bit, that you didn't have to worry so much? How long did that take? So, you know, for years, even when I had my little one, even if she would develop a little cold, I would take either of the children who were with even a slight cold, I would take them to Right. And I think I've told a lot of people the story, but when my older daughter Ananya— so the one thing she was told we have to be careful about is chickenpox, because if she developed that in her first year after treatment, it could affect her immunity very much. So every time she would develop something that was— looked like a spot was about to come up, I would take her to the hospital. To emergency. And we would, in the middle of the night, we'd be sitting in emergency and my husband would be like, this is ridiculous. And I remember once we took her to emergency because I thought a spot was going to come up. The doctor said, please go home, you're wasting my time. Two days later, she developed chickenpox. So I diagnosed it before it could medically be, because you know what you're saying about PTSD and hypervigilance, it's happened to me. And I became, for lack of another word, I became too— I mean, everything I was watching about the kids. And then when I started working on myself, I realized I have to let go and I have to relax. And I think years later, she still goes to the hospital every 2 years to be checked. But years later, I think 12, 13, 14, probably more, 15, 16 years later, We went to hospital once and I forgot the hospital number, and I thought, that's the best thing that's ever happened to me. I had to open my phone to pull out the hospital number, and that's when I thought, oh my God, you know, I cannot believe this just happened to me. And I didn't know whether to be happy or sad at that point because I was like, how could— I was feeling guilty. Yes, I was wondering about guilt. At what point, how Did you cope with any feelings of guilt? Did you— were you feeling guilty that you weren't doing enough, that you weren't finding the answer? How did you cope with that? So the first thing that happens— and you know, Maria, this is such an important topic. In fact, I'm doing a podcast on it next week, that there's feelings of guilt, because I've been through it. The first thing that happens to you as a mother is, what have I done wrong? Why has this child been diagnosed with this? It must have been something I've done. And, you know, and also sometimes people around you say, what did you do? Oh, why has she been diagnosed with leukemia? So then you just— that sends you into literally a state of shock, of course, and the trauma just gets intensified, and it's a burden. Yes. So there was that, and then there was feelings of like, you feel guilty about everything. You feel guilty when you smile. I remember the first time my husband and I went away after her treatment was over. We went for 2 nights to Venice. My mom was with her, uh, the nanny was with her, uh, my niece was in and out of the house. And in spite of all that, I remember at one point my husband said, you have to stop calling home to find out if she's okay. I'd called 23 times. Yeah, in less— in a day. And that, that's when I thought, I, you know— and so I've been doing— so with Ananya, we worked on her till we thought her side effects were gone in terms of, you know, all the different healing therapies. But with me, I never stopped. I keep doing things, I keep trying things because I— so that I can— because the more normal I am, the more the energy that I give out to her is normal, or to the world is normal. To my other daughter, you know. Um, and it took a while to get rid of this, the trauma, the guilt. But with a, you know, as she's leading a normal life and my other daughter is leading a normal life, they also tell me sometimes, you know, they've also taught me, as kids grow up, they have a— kids have this beautiful way of being connected and saying things very honestly directly and putting you in your place, especially teenagers, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So, and you know what happens with the feeling of when you feel guilty, it pulls you back, of course, and then you're pulling everyone else back. Yeah. And you can— and did you find yourself overcompensating in any way? Yes, because what I was doing was— this was, you know, like taking them to a hospital in the middle, middle of the night, and all that were forms of overcompensating. And then the other thing is, because your head is always working with the guilt, right? And your system is always working, and you're on high alert, as you said. So your adrenal glands always working, you're not in rest and recover mode, you know. It's not— your, your sympathetic nervous system, your parasympathetic, everything has gone out of sync. Everything was— and did you become ill at any point? So I— my immunity took a real knock. And I am, in any case, I'm the sort of person who'll keep going, and then after, you know, sort of every 2 months, 3 months, and I'm trying to work on it, but I'll just collapse for a week. I'll be unwell, I'll be in bed, because I just keep going at such a pace because I feel like I've got to do this, I've got to do that, I've got to help this one, I've got to do it, you know. I feel like And I shouldn't. I should let things flow more. But that, that I find, that's something that started after Ananya's illness. And it's the fact that every few months I spend a week being sick. But I can't complain. It's a little flu, or it's a little viral, or I picked up, you know, I can't complain if that's all that happens to me. Yeah, so, and I know physically I've done it to myself, so. But do you feel it's almost like a release, that it forces you to stop? And it's a release of all the toxins? I mean, people talk about toxins, but everybody's body is so different. We all work differently. But do you feel it's like, okay, and so you've got to stop and just release all of that stress through your body, come, you know, just to calm yourself right down, to force you to sleep a little bit? To go back into yourself a little bit, to recover every part of you internally, and then go back out into the world. Yes. So that's one thing that happens. And I do— I mean, I remember my sister-in-law, one of my sisters, laughing at me the other day because I said to her on the phone, I'm so excited, I'm not well, I can spend the week in bed. So exactly what you're saying. There is one more thing that I do once a year. I take time out for myself. Someone wants to join me, great. If no one wants to join me, I will go to a health resort. Yeah, for a week. And there are so many times I've done it alone, but that's my time. Yeah. And I will— and that's all about me from morning to night. It's about mental, physical, emotional, spiritual development. And I would do that without fail every single year, whether it's here, whether it's in India, wherever I go to. You know, I go to the Mayer Clinics and the Viva Mayer Clinics in Austria. I've been to a place called Pema in India. I just— it's just time to focus on me. And can you tell us what worked? Which therapies worked for your daughter as she was younger and then grew? And then the therapist that that worked for you and the ones actually that work for Amara, because you're all three different types? Or is there one that works for all of you because you're connected, or generally is the best for everybody? A big question in one go, but you might— yeah, I'm sure you can handle it. So one of the things that I do a lot is— so even when the kids were young, when I started realizing that I'm behaving like a mad person by going on taking them to emergency all the time, Yeah, rather than give them medical treatment, I would first try and treat them through two different ways. One would be either homeopathy or Ayurveda. Yeah, so I have a homeopathic kit at home, right? And I have homeopaths, so I've learned enough so that if they've got a cold, you know, will the Aconite sort it, or do I, you know, do I need to resort to the Calfolds of the world? Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. So I have my, you know, little Ayurvedic kit, so and I have my homeopathic kits, and I would try and heal through home remedies. Can I just give them ginger and turmeric? You know, that kind of thing. But it— you know, my home remedies went to a completely different level. They laugh and say, Mom, you just have all these home remedies that you treat us with. So that's one thing that I try. The other thing is we have an acupressurist in London called Dr. Sharma. And he, he would come and do acupressure on the body to help the body to heal itself. Yeah. And he taught me, uh, some— like when Ananya's liver was affected, he taught me some liver pressure points that I would do on her morning and evening. And it took us 13 years, but her liver, touch wood, was back to normal. Amazing. But these, you know, it's slow, but it, it works. Yeah. Well, at least there's a solution. There is a solution. And I know you're saying it's slow, but on the other hand, her liver may never have recovered had you not done that. Yeah, exactly. Because it does take time. Because there is this sort of myth of healing the body very, very quickly, you know. Oh, you know, take 5 minutes, if you do this every day, by tomorrow it will heal. You know, like they say, the, the liver regenerates every 6 weeks. Yes, but it regenerates in old way every 6 weeks. So you've got to change quite a lot. All those acupressure points will affect other parts of the body, mind, the spirit, and the heart. And everything has to be connected. And it's not something that you can will into action. It's not a conscious thing, is it? It seeps in very little, sort of like water into our body. It just seeps in very slowly. But you have to help to do that. You can't— it's very difficult to do it for yourself, isn't it? No. Yes, absolutely. I mean, there are some pads, this, that, but you need someone to help you do that. And, uh, so Dr. Sharma would come once a week to treat her, but I would treat her morning and evening every day because he told me what pressure points to press. Yeah. And then I have energy healers. So like, I have an energy healer in Goa in India. I've been, you know, I work with an energy healer in Thailand. I work with— I worked with a shaman in, uh, in Peru, yeah, in Mexico, you know. So there's people all over the world. Can I just go— yeah, can I just go into the shamanism? Because I've trained as a shaman and it's quite a fascinating— it's quite a fascinating training. Um, the whole— now when you do your— it's slightly different, isn't it, to acupressure and other energy healing techniques, the whole aspect of shamanism, because it's awakening a different part of your energy, isn't it? I don't know how you experienced it. Can you give us an idea of how you experienced it? So we did an interesting ritual in Mexico. It was called Temazcali, and it, it's It's a ritual where the shaman takes you into a completely dark room and he does this energy healing which is like a rebirth. Ah, yes. So you're being reborn and he's cleansing you of any energies. And like when you're born, you're completely pure of any negative energies. Similarly, the shaman is cleansing you anything negative, and you're being reborn so you can start your life afresh. So that was one of— that was a very powerful— did you both have to— did you both learn it together, and did you both experience it together? How did it work for you? So there was me, my husband, and my older daughter. My younger daughter would take to these things only after she's 21. One. She's 20, so I, you know, at the moment I think she's a bit young for something this strong. Yeah, it is quite strong, isn't it? It's good that you say that. It's a good— you know, you've got your feet well firmly on the ground because you understand that to do certain energy healing and certain healing can be too much for the body and can be too much for a person at such a young age. So the three of you went, and how long did it last? How long Was it a ceremony or the healing itself? So it was like a ceremony, and you— and they take you into this hot— it was like a little cave, and pitch dark, and they do the healing with these hot rocks. So it's like you're in a sauna. And then they do all these chants, and they do they make you ingest some, uh, smoke of some sort. It's like a tobacco smoke, and you go through— it's like a whole ritual around it. But what I found, Maria, was with my conversations with the shaman, this one gentleman who I'd met in Mexico, he was in the desert in Mexico, you know, outside any of the cities. What I found very interesting was there's a lot of similarity to the Indian Vedic thinking and practices. Even to the extent we have something called Vastu in India, which is the placement of the house and how the energy will— should work in alignment with the Earth and with the magnet at the center of the Earth. Yeah. And they have something very similar. Yes. Placement. So when you're talking about the energy world, there might be different ways of approaching the same thing, But it's about the same thing. It's all about being connected to a power, to some power which is within us and outside, you know. So the universe is within. We are the universe, I believe. Well, the microcosm of the macrocosm, isn't it? But we are that very small part of the universe, and I— yes. I hear what you're saying, and it's so profound that within us, if we can join together, that's where we all can affect change. But it's all got to come from the right place. That's why I'm always concerned when people do the power of— you know, they sort of talk about the power of, uh, whatever it's called, to get what you want, you know, manifesting. That's it, manifesting. And I always think, yes, I always think that's quite good, But you might be manifesting what you want but not what you absolutely need. And that's what we've been talking about. What you need may be very different to what you want. And that whole per— and people forget that when they're being taught. You may need something very different to what you think you want. Because people might say, oh, I'm going to go and get money, let's all go and get money. And there's this big thing about money, isn't there? You know. Yeah. Um, yeah. And let's not talk about— we're not talking about politics, we're talking about this sort of drive. Getting money will do this for you and do that for you, but you can lose it just as quickly. And it has an energy of its own. But if you do it in the wrong way and get money for the wrong purpose, you— and you can get money, but then you might not hold on to it because it's not what you need to learn. And within us all, we've got a root to our lives that if we tap into it, it's almost like levels. And if you tap into that lower— I call it not a lower, lower frequency. Yeah, it's sort of a lower level, not so much in terms of its quality, because its quality is almost the highest. But if it's on a lower level, it's always there within you. It sort of vibrates. It's like a river. I call it, that runs through you. If you know what your journey is about, you can always tap into it. And then when you do manifest, uh, your beliefs, or manifest something that you're meant to be dealing with, or willing, you know, sort of to come through for you, it's manifesting what is right for you, not just what you want. And then the world changes. Then we're all in tune with each other. So Maria, you know what you're saying about manifesting and people trying to manifest things. What I always say to people is that when you're trying to manifest something which is not in alignment with the universe, it doesn't just flow. There's a lot of struggle attached to it. But when you're trying to manifest something which is, like you said, your purpose, or which is in alignment with the universe, you will see that things just flow. Like, people ask me, how do you find a different expert or therapist every week? We've now done 75, 76 podcasts. It's just flowing. I'm not doing anything. The universe is doing this. Yeah, I mean, I'm doing very little work for it. I mean, I'd be— of course we're doing the work and setting it up and making sure voice quality is right and making sure that the, you know, your YouTube videos are right and all that. But the people are just coming because it's flowing. It's not something— I'm working in alignment with the universe, I guess. So the universe is sending all these people to me. And also, but you've done a lot of the work that you've needed to do. And I do believe that sometimes if our world goes wrong in one direction, it's because you're being pushed into another direction. But you have to learn the skills. Often people say, oh, you know, sort of, if you haven't got the vision it, you know, it doesn't matter what skills you have. Uh, I read something like that. You need a vision and doesn't matter about the skills. I don't agree with that. I think sometimes we're being stopped because we don't have the skills. We haven't really looked into it. We haven't earned our way to that level. We haven't earned the way to look at something differently. And when I go through my life and if something— if I'm held up in in some way. I say, what— okay, what am I learning here? What is it I'm being taught? And our teachings aren't always easy. It's not like going to school and getting a maths paper, you know. As you can tell, maths was never my best. My mother was a mathematician, but— oh, I love math. Me too. It should be taught as a game. But, um, you know, it's the whole element of mathematics is fabulous. But what I'm saying is sometimes it's taught in a way that somebody doesn't make sense of it. But what I'm saying is our life teaching for us individually can be quite hard. It can be quite taxing, as you've learned that, and it can actually throw you off the path you were on. And it's now saying, well, why am I doing this? What, what is this about? What is it teaching me? And that's what's happened to you. You've been learning all this time, and now that you're putting it in the right direction to teach others, it's flowing because you've done enough for the moment. So Maria, on that note, on what you're talking about, about how the hardships in our lives are actually teaching us something, that is such a beautiful spiritual way of looking at it. Because in fact, yesterday I did a podcast with this beautiful lady called Carla Picardi, and she says, teach— treat each obstacle as a gift. How beautiful is that? Because the obstacle has come to teach you something. And that's what Vedanta also says, right? That, you know, the people who are creating the most problems in your life, they're your biggest gift. Absolutely. And the situations that are creating the biggest— because that's where, if you look at life as more than just I mean, if you look at consciousness and your own consciousness more than just this lifestyle— lifetime— not everyone agrees with it. Then if you believe that there is something more than just the life we're living now, then every obstacle we've had in our life has come for a particular reason. Oh, I agree. I think that I do believe in reincarnation. I was brought up a Catholic, but I do believe in reincarnation. And interestingly enough, the Catholic religion believed in reincarnation till the 4th century. And I, and do think that we, um, come with certain obstacles given to us so that we— it's almost like we, we're trying to make a new sculpture of ourselves and we've got to work at certain things. That's why it's so difficult in certain areas, and we've got to struggle and wrestle with certain elements of ourselves and to put them in the right direction. I don't believe that we will ourselves to be hurt. I don't believe in that. I don't believe that people go through terrible times because they're being punished. I don't believe in that. But I do believe that we— if we can find a learning somewhere and find the people around us who can help us, give us strength through that difficult time— and some people— you've gone through a very difficult time— some people go through horrendous times that have been, you know, sort of put on their shoulders at very young ages as well. And somehow they've got to come through this. And if other people can be there to support them in a loving, caring way, that they have had to learn something for them that is individual to them. Because at the end of our lives, frankly, and I do say this to a lot of my clients and to people generally, on our death beds. You'd never talk about how many shoes you've got, how many handbags, how many yachts you've got. There's not one person I've experienced that doesn't talk about relationships. Yes, absolutely. I had the right relationships. And it's within our relationships, as you say, and Jung talked about it, the whole element of projecting. What am I projecting onto that person, or what are they teaching me? What are they bringing to me? Do they have to be in my my life? Have I learned enough from what's going on here in this interaction? And so on. And it's learning what people are in our lives for. But to know that if we can learn from this life as well and move on effectively and become better than we were when we started— yes, yes, we've done something to fulfill this journey in this lifetime. Yes. And Another thing, it's very interesting what you're saying, that you discuss with people that the end of their life— because even I very often would say to people as joke, right, that what would you, what would you want your last meal to be? Yeah, who was the last person you'd want in the room? Yes, when, when you're going. And you know what, you're absolutely right, it's all about love. Yeah, it's all about relationships and who Who you love, and most people will say their children, their, you know, their spouse, their parents. It's all about your deep relationships, and at the end of the day, it's all about love. And my favorite quote is, where there's love, there'll be miracles. I absolutely— and that's been shown in your life. The only caveat I put to that is you don't have to overlove people that are damaging you. Either. Yeah, but because I, I do think— I, let me just put that into the correct frame here. You can love them, but you don't have to have them in your life where they're damaging you and are hurting you. Because there are some people that are damaged, and sometimes by showing the boundary of what you can do and what you can give actually helps them. Understand when they're not behaving properly. Because we're in a, in a time where people are just spilling out all their dark shadow side, as Jung calls it, and all their negative stuff on others without a care who they're affecting. So it's protecting yourself well enough, but as the Greeks call it, give them the agape, that type of love, the love of humankind, the compassion love, but not necessarily familial love where they come into your life, or definitely not, if you can help it, eros love, which is in a partnership, because there are different boundaries we have to set for ourselves. But so you said something very, very important here. You're talking about boundaries. I think we all need to learn about boundaries. That's something a lot of us don't know about. That is such an important thing you've said, because so often we don't. And that comes back to look after yourself first, because you cannot pour from a cup that's empty. No. And this is what you were saying. So we're almost towards the end of this amazing interview. I knew it would be wonderful. I'm so pleased to be speaking to you, and you've got so much to offer in the world. And I know your girls when they've had time to breathe in their own shoes— and I know they do come back to you— there'll be a point where I'm sure Amara will be helping you more, and, and Anya will be— somehow she'll come back to this. It's inevitable, isn't it? But for you, the work you're going to do is going to be amazing in the world. Is there something, apart from saying look after yourself, is there something that everybody should be doing? Is there last thing that you can say to people that makes you— that you think, right, if there's one thing everybody should do? The gratitude is one. Yes, I was just thinking, yeah, gratitude is so powerful because it changed my life. Yeah. And every time I go into a space of more gratitude, it's just amazing how things just flow into my life. Yeah. So if there's It does one thing. Give us an example now of today, the type of gratitude you might look for, or people can look for, to help them understand. So, you know, like when lockdown happened, as it did for a lot of people, I mean, I had— we have the two girls at home. One, the older one, was starting— was finishing her— Ananya was finishing in, uh, at UPenn. We got a letter from the president saying, please take all your international— take the international children away. So we had to call her home, and, uh, she was very upset because she didn't get to say bye to her friends. Then there was talk about the US closing borders, so we had to rush her home. The graduation happened online. In the US, the graduation is a really big thing. I had the younger one at home, who is a real people's person, and she was not being allowed to leave the house. It was driving her nuts. She wanted to go to school, she wanted to meet her friends. So, but with all that, I just realized again, how fortunate are we, you know, that we're well, we're safe. That— and I kept saying that, and the kids were like, Mom, you're nuts. You're saying fortunate? We're sitting in a, in a house, we're not being allowed to step out of the door, and you're saying we're fortunate? But I said, we're well, we're safe. We've got food on the table, you know, we've got nothing to worry about as such. And, you know, I mean, look around you. There is— there was devastation. Yeah, look what was happening at that point. And that is just be grateful for what we've got. And that is such a powerful message. And Anshu, Anshu, and thank you so much for allowing me to interview you today. I know you're going to really— your message will stretch far and wide. Thank you so much. This is Your Mind Matters, Dr. Maria Kempinska. Thank you, Maria. Thank you so much.