Your Mind Matters – Jayne Cowan & Philip Price, Work And Love Are The Cornerstones Of Humanness

Freud announced that love and work are the cornerstones of our humanness. But that was in the beginning of the 20th century. Does it still hold today? One recent healthcare study has concluded that the absence of economic stability, safe neighborhoods, access to education, healthy foods and social connectedness are commonly considered to be the cause of behavior between 20 to 40% of premature deaths. And finally, it stated a steady job can positively influence a number of these factors. Sterling University also concluded in a similar study that the threat of unemployment can activate thoughts of death for those not in a relationship. However, the pre Socratic philosopher Empedocles said love and strife were the primary moving and motivating factors, not just for humans, but for the whole Universe. I am Dr. Maria Kompinska, a psychotherapist, and this is yous Mind Matters. My two guests joining in the discussion today of love and the cornerstones of our human nest are, firstly, Jane Cowan, who works in a communications role with MP Dean Russell and runs a charity, and Philip Price, an entrepreneur, writer and speaker. Firstly, can I welcome you, Jane, and can you give me a little bit more of your background? Thank you, Maria. Yes, I've been involved in charity work for a number of years, really. I started off when I was very young. My dad and mum kind of instilled in me the importance of kind of giving back to the community. And give one example, I've been involved with St John Ambulance for practically all my life. My dad was a proud president there and was very lucky in recent years to be made a president in a division in Cardiff as well to carry on that sterling work. And I think that it helps you grow as a person and really helps, you know, with your mental health and things, if you can help other people. So it's part of the charity aspect. I also set up fairly recently in memory of my father who sadly passed away with dementia. A very, very small charity which I'm looking to grow in the years ahead, where it supports people who are going through dementia and to provide the little things for them, such as kind of music in their homes or little afternoon teas and just kind of give back something which they can engage with and kind of learn from and grow. And I think that's really important that we don't forget the little things in life. So that's a couple of the charity aspects I deal with. Fantastic. And your work with Dean Russell, your communications. Yes. So basically, it's a very small world. What happens, really. I was made redundant, sadly. I worked in a communication role for a hotel in Cardiff during the COVID crisis, the hotel sadly shut and I applied for a job with Mr. Russell. And you know, in the normal world, before COVID to try and apply for a job, London, where you live, in Cardiff, you know, it just wouldn't even be palatable. But I was very lucky. I went through, you know, a very rigorous interview process, had two interviews, I did a number of tasks and then I've been working with them with Mr. Russell. And I think what really kind of empowered me to really want to get that job more than anything was his compassion and his kindness, his drive for mental health and, you know, to help people, his volunteering. And I think, you know, you can buy into a person's agenda and I think you can take that along with you. And I think that's really important for me. And that's why I was thrilled when I was offered the role working for him. Yeah, that's wonderful. And as you say, in this extraordinary time, which is why we're talking about work and love and how it keeps you focused and does it keep you focused. But before we go into that, you know, it's so important and so wonderful that you were chosen by Dean to actually act as his communication advisor, assistant executive. It's such a powerful role. And having met Dean myself, he's such a wonderfully active MP in the world of mental health. So I'm very pleased and proud to be working just in connection with you and the work he does. But before we go into the discussion, Philip, can you give us a little bit more of your background? Yes, Maria, certainly, Jane. That was a very interesting story, by the way, and congratulations on obtaining that wonderful role. Thank you very much. Great. I've been for the best part of 30, I don't know, 31, 32 years a headhunter. And that's meant that I've certainly in the past worked for some of the big sort of international accountancy practice, law firms, big fund management houses, all the sort of institutions on this planet which really do on occasions lead a severe knocking and can be very full of self interest and far removed from charitable sort of goings ons, et cetera. But I also last year had a change of career because my career as a headhunter to some extent just was put on hold because a lot of the potential deals and assignments working on just came to an end. The war did truly stop. I think it was the tail end of March last year. So what I did is I went and gathered some friends from the past together and I'm in the process of setting up A trust company, which is a company that advises people on how to structure their assets on a global basis. And I hope if we're successful in doing this, that I can also get involved in some meaningful charitable work going forward, because I think that's important. I think just working for yourself and working on behalf of wealthy individuals really sort of holds no water. I think you've really got to reach out and give something back to society. I'd be very interested in learning more about what you do, Jane, in terms of the charity that you run. And just to point out something synchronistic is that neither of you two have met and this is the first time you're speaking, but you both went to Cardiff University. We did. It's such a small world, isn't it? And what you were saying, really, about how things have changed with COVID and how really successful careers that had downturns and things, but I think what it shows is that people could be so versatile. I lost my job, and it was devastating, but I thought, right, okay, I've got to get something else. And that was the kind of positive attitude that I wanted to get. And, you know, as I mentioned before, that pre Covid, there's no way that anybody would have applied to London for a job, because everything now is virtual, that you can really. You can work anywhere, really. And I think the opportunities are far greater now than they were pre Covid. And I think that needs, you know, that message needs to be replicated and really told to people, because some people may not be brave enough to take that step. I was brave enough to take that, and luckily it paid off. That's very interesting. In fact, Jane, I've met three people over the last week on Zoom who actually got their jobs via not having physically met anyone whatsoever, just talking to a plastic screen. That's how they were interviewed. And I think that's one of the most remarkable bunch of stories that I've heard recently. Yeah, I've never met any of the crew either, from. To be honest, never met them before. I hope at some point I will. But I think the interview process is harder on Zoom because you can only look at that screen. You can't look around the room and have that kind of engagement or stat. You can't do anything. It's just kind of very all absorbing. But it was a great process. Very, very rigorous. It's probably the toughest interview I've had to do, and I've had a few, you know, jobs in the past, but. Yeah. And you don't you don't actually get a chance to relax on Zoom because you're so conscious of the way that you're coming across visually. Whereas if you're sitting in someone's office, you could look to one side and your mannerisms enable you relax a bit. But on Zoom, you just see people sitting there totally rigid. It's quite interesting. I've got a new business partner, chap in Jersey, and it's always worth a joke because when we're on a Zoom with other people, we gave this chap some of our equity in the business because he joined us a little bit later. And the big joke is that despite the fact we gave 25% of our equity away, we still don't know how tall he is. Because also, what's interesting is that they've seen into your homes, which you would never normally have that opportunity. And also in the early, early days of COVID when the first, you know, everybody was on Zoom or, you know, Skype or wherever they were communicating from, you'd have all these everybody sitting, telling everyone, I've only put my shirt on, I haven't got my trousers on, you know, and things like that. And then you've got the case of somebody abroad, I must add, I think he was a presenter presenting a radio, a TV program. The camera was on him. And in the background, he was a married man, by the way, in the background, his girlfriend, his mistress walked past. So, you know, people have now got to be much more aware of what they're doing in their own homes, which is quite funny and also quite. It can get you into a lot of trouble. But I'm sure you're both fully closed. Thank you for that. That wasn't a question, actually, that was just a statement. Yep. Sorry. I just ask you to take the question forward in. Has your work and love, and that is love, you know, in the biggest sense, whatever terms you like to put it into. Because as we know, some countries, some languages have the meaning for love in lots and lots of different ways. And the Greeks have more than five interpretations for love. We are very limited, although we've got a very rich language, we're limited in the terms for love. But does it keep you focused at an unsettled time like this? And is that focus helpful, Jane? I think so, yeah, as things have been, you know, so different. But I think that I'm normally quite a creature of habit. But I think you have to adapt or you're going to be left. Left behind, really, in situations like this, with an. With another ha And I'm also a kind of counsel. I've been there for 22 years and I sit on a committee called the Policy Review and Performance Committee. And we did a really interesting piece of work last week which we talk about zoom and about, you know, working from home. And for me, I've worked at home for quite a long period of time with previous jobs, but I also do worry and thinking about that love aspect and support aspect. You've got a number of people who have been forced to work at home. They live in tiny, tiny houses, they've got little children, they've got dependents. They can't have anywhere they can actually sit, they may not have a table, they don't have the IT equipment. And I think for them, they've really struggled. And the council have put a plan in place now, obviously, that restrictions are sort of changing that they're the people that are going to have that support for their mental health and also the support to come back into the workplace sooner. So, for most of us, and, you know, a lot of people that I know, the kind of working from home is amazing. I love it. I was working at course, to see six this morning to make sure my time was made up, obviously to. To attend today so that I. I did my hours. Although the boss is amazing, I want to obviously give back more than I'm entitled to because he's been so kind to me. But I'm lucky. I've got a nice home and I've got supportive partner and, you know, carer who helps with my mum here. But a lot of people don't have that privilege and that's really tough. I don't know, you know, how long people can continue in that vein. That worries me. And what about you, though, did you find. And I totally agree, and I think that's a big issue that we've had isolation and I think this is. We can flag that up because some people need to have to go to work to mix with other people. And also in some places at work, you need to be able to turn to your boss or a colleague to ask a question, which you can't do if you're isolated at home. I know some companies have put other sort of IT structures in place where they're all connected, but again, that, you know, that has its own upside and downside. So there's a big. There is a big disconnect going on. But some people, like yourself, because you're so well motivated, Jane, you can get on and do things. And I can hear that from You. Did you find the work, the fact that you started working, did you find that focus helpful? Oh, absolutely, because even before I lost my job and then I got something pretty quick, working a few hours a week for a charity, which I'm still carrying on and volunteering for them as well, I think, because I'm motivated and I want to do well. I think for me, I would have just kind of found any kind of job as a stopgap, so it kind of drove me to just carry on working. I think some of the people losing their job, the asp, you know, the kind of. The implications for that are going to be, you know, the enormity, it's just going to hit you. And I think there needs to be that support package. Going back to what you said, Maria, about the workplace, there's also another aspect to that, which I'm concerned about, is people who are coming just from university or from college or just from school, you know, that they're kind of thrown in, they've got no work colleagues, they don't know anybody working, you know, from their kitchen table at home, it's going to be really, really tough. And also people first jobs and things, but it'll depend on the workplace. But where I'm from, from Cardiff, they've got kind of buddy scheme and they've got the kind of regular engagement to keep an eye on people and also that mental health support. And I think that was good because I asked that question last week about that and they did say that the first cohort of people back into the building will be people who were struggling, and I think that's great. They haven't gone on kind of whether or not you're top of the tree or whether or not you're middle of the tree, they've gone on the need basis. And I think that's great and I hope other companies will do that. Yeah. And it's wonderful that you are saying this, because hopefully when other councils hear exactly what you're doing in Cardiff, they will learn from it and think about it. And I think this is the sharing of the knowledge that everybody can get, because we are now communicating exactly in this way. And frankly, we would not have met, so the conversation wouldn't have started between us had it not been for Covid and so on. So it is a wonderful time, a wonderful time out of a quite a desperate time as well for people. But coming to you, Philip, and did work help you focus and has love and work helped you? Yes, it has. And having been doing what I've been doing for 35 odd years or thereabouts. I haven't really had time to think about sort of specific examples, but I think one. Let me just give you some experience of last week I went to meet some people for the first time since December of last year, or it might be November of last year, and they were so pleased to see me. And one of the themes that I'm noticing in terms of people I'm speaking to on a daily basis, they're now so sick of the Zoom experience because they're desperate for human interaction. That ability to have a cup of coffee with someone, to have a little joke, the nuances that are lost on communicating with computers. I'm finding that people are now getting very, very happy about the fact that we're slowly getting back to the workplace. Workplace existence. Because I think naturally, as human beings, that's the way we are. Work in isolation. Having said that, I've more or less worked in isolation for the last 35 years. Yeah, but you've worked as a sort of a solo entrepreneur as opposed to in isolation. Yeah, no, a one man band. There was a time in the 90s when I had a company of about 15 people, which is good fun. But certainly for the last 15 years I've worked more or less in isolation and talking. Also we mentioned the university thing, Jane. I mean, my son is doing. He's doing graphics at Chelsea School of Art and we were having dinner the other night. He said, I only know three people, three people. People reasonably well on my course. I've been two years at university and through this experience. And he said, it's just been really detrimental. It sounds like you had such a great time when you're at Cardiff and the number of people you met and the friends you've got and some of those friends that you carry Forward sort of 40 odd years later. He said, I can't see myself doing that. I know just three or four people I speak to. It's devastating, isn't it, really? Isolate. Yeah. And yeah, he doesn't seem to complain. So my hat comes off to him, I think. Crumbs, you know, he's had a very, very boring time along with thousands of other students who've gone through the same thing. And he just has seen this, this university experience as an experience which has taken place more or less with his tutors and on Zoom. It's not been going out down the pub, living with people, getting to know people. It's. It's been very, very dull. So I've got to Admit, I do feel quite sorry for the student body out there at the moment. I do too. But I think what they will find at the end, whereas if they were in a normal situation, they're going to be so disciplined and they're going to. It's like in a work environment anyway. So I think when they go into the workplace, it's going to be quite an easy transition for them, even though it's probably not ideal that they don't have the kind of whole student life and living away from home and things. But I think that is one of the positive aspects from it. And they'll be brilliant at tech as well. There'll be nothing that they won't be able to solve. Oh, absolutely. I tell you one other thing which is fairly interesting, because a lot of people who say, you're zoomed out, but I chair a governing body of a school and we had a meeting recently and there was, you know, discussions about whether or not we would keep it on teams or whether or not we would go back to the workplace. And I think what's been brilliant is what we potentially got somebody who'd like to get involved, who doesn't live in Wales, who lives in England, and if we keep the meetings on zoom, we can kind of get the expertise from anywhere. Exactly. And also with another charity that I'm working on, we're working with a family now from the northeast, which is probably four or five hours away from Wales, and having them on the committee and their kind of skills is going to take the committee forward so much. And it also helps with older people with the. The governing body committee. We've got lots of people who are over 70 who do want to go out on a winter's night when it's cold. When we said we were going to have all the meetings on teams and we would meet then at Christmas to have a get together, go to prize giving and celebrate all the children's achievements actually in the school. But we've had a better buy in from people because they can carry on in this vein. So I think there are negatives and there is that loneliness and isolation, but on the positive side, we can look at, you know, sharing the expertise wherever you live, and I think that's a great thing. Coming back to the negatives, let's just focus. Talk about negatives, not necessarily in your lives, but the lives you've observed. When we were, I sort of mentioned Empedocles, he said that life was also concerned. Strife. So work and strife now, strife being conflict, anxiety. And there's a lot of anxiety for people. But how do you both cope with your own anxiety? How do you cope when you have a particularly anxious time? And I know you're looking after your parent there, Jane, and it's inevitable that at times we're all anxious one way or another. Yeah, I've been so fortunate and my mum's carer is literally within kind of hearing distance from me. But he is just incredible. He's, you know, my best friend, he looks after my mum, he doesn't count his hours, he's here more often than, you know, than he should be. And, you know, he's kind of helps with my work side as well, so he's kind of one of us. And I think Covid has bonded people so well. We didn't have that kind of structure here. And again, my husband works from home and we're just like a unit, you know, living with somebody with dementia, I'm not gonna lie, is exceptionally challenging. You know, up her two or three times during the night, won't eat her food sometimes, you know, gets upset about the television. It's really tough ask. But when you've got somebody, an understanding employer and you've got like a carer who is next to God, for me, then I think it just makes such a difference and you could perform. But if you, if you kind of put that on its head, if you've got somebody with dementia and you work in a shop or a petrol station or you work in a factory, you don't have that luxury. So I would have to give up all my jobs then and obviously I would want to look after my mum and care for my mum and that would be me. If I had to live on, you know, a few pounds a week, I would do that out of choice. But I'm lucky that I've got the opportunity to carry on working and look after my mum. But yeah, it is tough and I think for people who work in that different environments, it would be near on impossible. Jane, how do you cope with your mother's own anxiety? Because dementia, my father had Alzheimer's eventually and that within themselves they have a lot of stress and anxiety and concern and worry very often. How do you cope with your mother's feelings? So in many ways, well, lucky is the wrong term of phrase, but my dad had dementia and we cared for him for two or three years. Another close family member has got it. And with my mum we've got two delightful little dogs called Boris and Maggie. My mother lives for those dogs. It's Boris's birthday on Wednesday. And when Mum gets anxious, Mum's carer, he'll put some music on or we'll put a dog on her lap, we'll talk about what I do, she folds the washing and we keep her engaged and motivated. I haven't had Touchwood and with my dad, one day where they don't want to get up, have a shower, have breakfast and just do the day, she has days where she's fed up and, oh, I've got nothing much to do. But it's kind of that deflection tactics. Put a dog on a lap, put on some music and have a song. And I think if you're prepared to invest a lot of time, you can look after somebody with dementia very well. But it's that time, isn't it? And because I don't have any children and I don't really go out, I don't socialize, I don't drink, I'm very boring person. I just work and look after my mum, really. So I don't think that's true. I don't think you are compared to me, Jane, you're incredibly interesting, Jane. I think what you've actually said there is so helpful for people because it's also, in a way, the same for children, isn't it? When you've got children that are getting restless, they. They are anxious, is how do you deflect that attention? And frankly, before I ask you, Philip, you know, so it's the same for all of us, that anxiety that comes in with us. I mean, both Freud, Jung and most psychotherapists, most psychoanalysts, believe that underneath us all, we have this inner anxiety of life. And I believe it drives us, you know, sort of that if you don't reflect on it too much. And I'm not saying that reflection shouldn't be part of this psychotherapeutic process, because I think it's great to help you identify where things went wrong in your life. And frankly, everybody has something, let's find out where it's come from. Is this a pattern I'm, you know, recreating consistently, how do I move forward, what are the steps I take? And in that process, within our own minds, there is an anxiety. If we understand that everybody has an anxiety and how do we get through this? So there are times when. Because also I'm not only doing this, and I love the psychotherapeutic work and mental health is a very big thing in my life and always has been, because my parents going through the war and so on and being prisoners of war and, you know, the whole aspect of life can be so, in certain people's experiences, so powerful and so negatively powerful. But how do you move forward? And I always know that when I'm in business or have a big step to take, I always think I don't know how I'm going to get through this, but I will. I don't know what the route is going to be, but I will get through this. Once I say to myself, I will get through this, that really helps me. So, Philip, how do you get through anxiety and do you have self talk? Maybe I'll ask you, do you have any self talk? Jane? I think we've all got that kind of level of anxiety and things. And I kind of like a pep talk to myself. But I think what drives me is just to. And I know it sounds silly, really, it's just to help people and, you know, to provide for my family, really a lot of people. I've gone through quite a lot in my life, to be honest, losing jobs, you know, losing my father, who I absolutely adored, and things that have happened. And I've had lots of issues being a counsellor with lots of kind of bullying aspects. But I think for me, all I want to do is just carry on working hard and to prove these bullies and these doubters wrong. And I think that's what drives me. And the. And these doubters, these bullies. How did that affect you? What was happening there? Well, I got elected at 24, which was, you know, quite young and female. There was only kind of one female in the group. Kind of not the greatest support back in. In 1999, to be honest. And in basically it kind of things like happened. I had dead flowers said me, I had a sympathy card with hope you die in there. I had dog feces rubbed into my car, had my tires slashed. I had press cuttings with them, rape stories in there, silent phone calls. Yeah, I had an awful lot, I have to say, over the years. Oh, and can I before we come to you, Philip, because we lost you temporarily. Three minutes. My Internet here, Maria, is appalling, I know, but don't worry, Philip, we're talking to James. I've had some anxiety. All right, I bet. I bet you did. We'll come back to that. But Jane, can I ask you, because this is such a big subject before I move over to you, Philip, Jane had some bullying and things. How did you cope with that? Bullying is such a terrible thing in our time. I know it's being dealt with. But the moment you receive, as you said, you know, dog feces, the dead flowers you receive bullying, it is anonymous very often, am I correct? Yes. The police have tried to investigate, but people hide behind fake profiles and things. You know, they've tracked the line and various things, but they haven't really got to any arrests or that kind of pointers yet over the years. But, you know, Jane, that moment that you receive it, what were you thinking then? I think at the initial time, when I was really young, I've always been very outspoken. And if you look back in the press and you Google Hazelcroft residential home in Cardiff, I was instrumental for closing that home because of the allegations of horrific abuse. And, you know, I was 24. I decided, you know, this was what I wanted to do. I wanted to expose what was going on. And it happened around that time and basically it was either I carry on or I kind of go away and I just, you know, write my letters about potholes and I thought, no, no, no, no, I'm going to carry on doing this. And I found that kind of strength just to carry on fighting. And I've always had that belief that people who do this are really sad. They probably got very little in their lives, they're probably very troubled, but also they don't want me to succeed. And I'm very proud that on the last two elections, I had the biggest election vote in the whole of Wales for a councillor, and I'm so proud of achieving that, and that is only through hard work and determination. And I would say to your listeners, if you feel bullied or threatened, you find that courage to beat these people and show them that you can really succeed and excel and. And that's the best advice I can give. But it takes a lot of strength to do that. Yeah, I mean, it's quite interesting. There's a lot of. Sorry, Philip, I'm not excluding you. You might come in on this. I don't know if bullying happens in the same way, but. And I'm sure it has in your life, but it's. How do we deal with that? And in the public eye, I think there's many more people being called out in America for bullying on social media and so on, but I think it's such a courageous step to keep going forward that it doesn't get you down that much that you stop doing what you're meant to be doing, because in life you make those choices as well. How do I keep doing what I'm meant to be doing? And what is the purpose of my life, which I'll come back to because, Jane, it's so exciting talking to you as a woman who is so driven and motivated. And it's normally given bad press, I think women who are motivated. But for me, I'm very motivated, as you know. But you know, it's wonderful to actually be able to talk to somebody who is in the public eye, is motivated, is making something happen and you're seeing the changes that are being made by you as a tour de force. But Philip, can I just ask you very quickly as well about anxiety? Do you have any self talk about self anxiety? You know, sort of when you're going through that anxious moment in life, you know, especially over the past year, how do you talk yourself out of it? What do you do to get out of it? Right. Well, I tend, what I tend to do because I try and analyze it first and things are never quite as bad as you think. Even though it's very easy for us to sort of put ourselves down and to spiral down and think things are very bad. I just try and get a balance, you know, and I, and I, I, I, I, I look at the newspapers and I, and I say to myself, okay, look, I'm feeling pretty bad at the moment, that business deal isn't going well. Things don't look like they're going well moving forward. But am I living in Gaza? Am I in a prison camp? Am I being subjected to sort of, you know, the terrible abuse, the sort of abuse that I'm sure, Jane, you, you've sort of seen and experienced in terms of people you've met, etc. No, I'm not. So basically my life is a very cozy one and my anxieties, I just try and keep, keep in check. And I think my anxieties, a lot of my anxieties stem from what's happening in the world. And I mentioned to, to Maria at the start of the program that I perhaps I wanted to talk about some of the lecturing that I do because the last five years I've been lecturing on the cruise ships using that defunct zoology degree that I got from having brushed it up a bit and sort of read some scientific papers. I tend to lecture on the environment and the state of the world. And believe me, that can be very, very depressing, especially when you're looking at things in the way that I say to myself, look, I'm 60 and if I'm lucky I've got another 30 good years myself in, in good shape, etc. But I'm worried about my kids, I'm worried about the next generation. I'm worried about younger, younger kids who, perhaps five or six at the moment. What sort of world are we going to be living in? Oh, yes, in the year 20702007 to 2018. So I have these rather sort of, not personal anxieties, but I suppose broader anxieties as to where we're going as, as a species where, where we humans, you know, what we're doing to one another, basically. And I'd love it if we could live in a world that just got on completely and we could end all wars, etc. But I think the world has now become so fragmented and so tribalist, become tribalistic, that we've got more and more trouble coming our way. And I think each and every one of us has to try and sort of do what, whatever we can with the people around us to try and, to try and harmonize things and just make it a, make it a better place. I totally agree. And part of what we're talking about here, and Jane mentioned bullying, comes back to what is our attitude and it comes back to the qualities of humanity, humanness. And I know we have the human rights that was brought about post war and that was absolutely essential, but it is only in a certain area. We don't have that as a global understanding. We haven't had a global buy in. So at this moment, I think what people are looking at is the environment, I think, which is wonderful. We need to look at the environment. I think there are two other areas they never look at when it comes to the environment. Elon Musk has been given permission to put satellites up into the air, up into the sky. 10,000 satellites, in fact. In total, he's been given permission for 42,000 satellites. And I think that in itself is going to have an impact on our environment. Bill Gates wants to throw some dust up into the air to stop the power of the sun. And I know the Chinese had so much smog that they were going to create their own sun as a false sun so that people wouldn't be so depressed. There's so much in the environment that we are creating. Let's put it into perspective. Human beings are creating a lot of this. When we come back to the numbers of people on our Earth, I think there's plenty of space. There's plenty of space for everybody. I just think there are people who want to be in charge and that maybe they find it difficult to be in charge of everybody. And I think that we're looking in the wrong direction. And coming back to bullying and our attitude from one person to another. And something that you said, there's something very tribal going on, but more than just tribal, it's to do with people wanting to control somebody else. So even in the smallest sense, let's say the microcosm of the macrocosm coming back to you here, Jane, where somebody was bullying you without you knowing who they were, they sent it through the post to your home and they tried to control you. That's a form of control. That's trying to tell you not to behave the way you're behaving. And here we need to find a different way of communication. And somebody was saying, actually, who deals with security, Security people, security. He deals in politics. And not as. Not quite as simple as a bodyguard, but in a bigger sense, security. And he was saying that men often act in violence. He's American, by the way. So they have. Well, to some extent, they have the guns. And I'm tragic. I can understand why they have guns. I understand why they have guns, but it's tragic at the same time because it's all too easy to use the gun. So that's terrible. But they say women communicate. Tell me, Jane, do you think that's true, that women communicate more than men? Do you think that that is the real reason for our mental health problems? You could quite easily have had women sending those things to you. Absolutely. It's the uncertainty. And I have to say that it's carried on to this day. I logged a couple of issues about anti Semitism during the election. There was a Hitler moustache drawn on a board. And, you know, we've had lots of issues about that recently. So it could be. Could be men, could be women. But I've had this for the last 22 years. No. Oh, yes. On and off from when I got newly elected. And, you know, the police chat thinking. Because sometimes it's sporadic. Could the person go back to prison? Could it be somebody you don't know? Could it be somebody you do know? But I think from the conversations I've had, often it's actually within your inner circle of friends. So that kind of terrifies you a little bit. And I think if I sat back and I didn't, I wasn't busy, you know, seven days a week working and doing things, I probably would have reacted to this in a very, very different way. And that is why, you know, I chair of this committee, I'm involved in charity work. There's so many things that I do to keep myself busy and involved. I think if I had a very quiet life, I honestly think that the pressure and the impact on my mental health could have destroyed me and stopped me standing for election again. Because I've seen it happen to friends I've got, I obviously will mention a name, but a lady who doesn't live too far from here, she's bowed out of politics, she's exceptionally talented, she's got bullied and harassed and she said, you know what, I don't need this. And we've lost a real star. Yeah. And I think the whole attitude and coming back to the point, I think much more is the point in mental health is how do you treat somebody else? And let's talk about not only how do we treat somebody else, but what is humanness? What would you say the attributes, Philip, are to humanness? Oh, my goodness, that's a hell of a question. You know, we are talking about that and at the moment we are now, you know, in competition with artificial intelligence who are trying to recreate us. But I do think that humanity, human beings, have got this advantage because we can move much more quickly, I think, in our thought processes. Yes, the AI can do sort of calculations and, you know, data and so on very, very quickly. But to give you some, some ideas of what other people have said, it's emotional responsiveness, pro social warmth, cognitive openness, individuality. We've already talked about love and work. I, I think that we should add humor and meaning. And you don't get that with artificial intelligence. But what do you think? I think it's all of those things. I think basically the, the great thing about being a human being is that we have the ability to reason, to stand back, look at it, look, look at the world around us and summarize basically what is right and what is wrong. And some of us choose to live in the world that is wrong. And that's the world they live in. They excel in that. And some choose to live in the world where they have a higher moral sort of view and seek higher moral authority. And I think, you know, the chimpanzees can't do that because the chimpanzees find it great fun to run up into a tree and tear monkeys to pieces. And that is just part of the game for them. I find gorillas a lot calmer. They probably wouldn't, but there's no extreme self awareness with a gorilla. Human beings, we're unique. We came off the branch of the animal kingdom and we just have that ability to understand who we are and our impact, be it good or bad, on the planet. What do you think if you were to choose while we're talking, you might come back with this answer is what do you think is the primary one virtue of humanness? Can you choose one? Maybe I'll talk to Jane in the meantime. Yeah, I think compassion. I was going to use that exact word. Jane, I'm so sorry. No, that's great. You see, how wonderful is that, that you've both chosen the same word. It's true though. And ever since I was a little child in my family, I've always said, you know, do as you do and people will treat you exactly the same way. Now I have to say that's not the case in many aspects of society. But if you move in circles where people are honorable and they're kind, they will treat you the same way you treat them. I've seen the other side. But then, you know, the nice part of my brain thinks that they've got problems, maybe they come from a really difficult childhood. And I don't feel a lot of people said to me, oh, you must hate these people, what they do. And I don't hate them. I wish I could meet them in many ways and just see if you can kind of put them on a different journey. Because lots of them have got issues and things I said. And I think from that point of view is I chair this school with emotional difficulty children and you know what, you're hearing tales and things. They haven't got fridges at home, no, very little food. And the school does so much for them. They provide amazing food, you know, through the summer holiday. Do you know what else we do which I think is groundbreaking? We provide cookery lessons for the parents. Oh, fabulous. We go and collect the parents for parents evening. We have the highest turnout of parents evening of any school in the county. We provide a buffet for the parents, we offer qualifications for the parents and we have great buy in. We've got amazing, you know, governors that support the school and you know, on paper that school is a very challenging school with children from across the area, very difficult backgrounds. But I have to say those parents love the school and so many of the pupils. Now I'll give you one very brief example. So basically it's a small school, 56 children. About 10 years ago, one of the pupils had a placement in a cookery, cookery school and roll on three years. He comes back every year with an ice cream van, gives every child an ice cream. He runs a catering Firm, two or three ice cream vans. He earns probably more than we all do, I have to say. He's made a fortune. And he comes every year and he says to the children now, stop. Don't be like I used to be. You be like I am now and you make sure that you do something good with your life and you just think, wow, he's come full circle and you can really do that. We've also had some pupils going back to mainstream school from, you know, the school that they're in now, they're going on to get qualifications and they're doing courses. And I think if you can invest your time, and time is the most precious commodity you can give anybody, if you show them that they can change their path and they can have a clear direction of travel, most people can do anything with that encouragement. And it's so interesting because I think kids buy into that, don't they? Yes. Can I just ask here, Philip, am I correct in saying you were actually involved in some sort of service when you were training, when you were growing up, were you in military in some way? I did. I spent some time in the Royal Marines, but I didn't actually go serve as a Royal Marines officer. And Maria, the reason why I didn't was basically I wanted to go make money. That was the main why I didn't stay in the same services, because I'd be sitting down there sort of as a colonel perhaps if I did achieve things and I'd be on a nice pension, etc, etc. But no, my motivation was money and, you know, I drifted up to sort of making good money and then losing money like all so called entrepreneurs do. We've certainly had those conversations in the past, you and I, coming back to the Royal Marines and what you're saying, Jane, and what I particularly, you know, love about both of those, the institutions that we have and the care that goes into the order. We all need order in our lives. This is what I was talking about right at the beginning. You know, the work, the love. We know we're supported emotionally. If you have love, if you have work, it gives you order. You get up every day, you know, sort of, if you're in a crisis, be disciplined, get up every day the same time, make your bed, have dinner at the same time, be disciplined, have a dog to take out, have an animal that you have to care for and. But what you're saying there is how you're bringing in the community to home. So what you're doing with your school there, Jane, is you're including the parents who may not be able, as you've said, cook food. They've not had that training and a lot of schools can't do that anymore. When I was at school, my mother was a brilliant cook and we, you know, sort of, we were on the council estate so we had very, very little money. But she was, had great taste and she managed to make great food and I used to cook with her and as we all did. But you know, what you're saying is you recognize that the families may not be able to help themselves. Oh, absolutely, I think that. And I tell you what, else has got a stage further as well. Just still talking about the school is we don't employ dinner ladies. Do you know what we do? We save money, but we also provide something brilliant. So we don't have a school cook, we have a chef from the army and we pay more money than we should do. That's the truthful answer. But we get exceptional food which is well balanced and stuff the children like. So what we do as a school, we provide every member of staff with a fantastic lunch every day and in return they have to work their lunchtime. They obviously have the choice and we have opt in of 100%. So as opposed to us bringing dinner ladies trying to deal with children who are very, very challenging and they don't like different people coming in, we have our school teachers sitting with them enjoying the lunch, learning those life skills which I think is brilliant. So we don't do things, we don't conform, we don't do what other schools do, but it's brilliant. And the teachers get a lovely meal, the children feel relaxed, they know the same people. And we also have, you know, the parents, if they want to come in, there's always a plate of cakes and things for them and it just gives them that kind of warmth and things which perhaps they haven't had before because they are the most challenging children in the county. And you know, we've had their parents there and some of them end up in prison and young offenders institutes. But I have to say, Touchwood, we've had the lowest exclusion rate in the last 12 months we've ever had. And I've been there 25 years. Well, Jane, just harking back to my, to my Cardiff days. Does your chap, does your guys in the army who comes to the catering, does he come from Maindy Barracks? Is it Maindy? Oh my God. I don't know. She doesn't get the army anymore. No, no. Top of Cruise Road and up I think, yeah. 2213 Squadron in land of north. So this, I got it right, it'll be up land us north. Right, okay, absolutely. And Maria, coming back to what you said about structure and it's so true. It's like with my mama, with the dementia. My mom's carer rocks up at 10 o'. Clock. So it's. So by 10 o' clock she's downstairs, she showers, she's changed. 10 o', clock, breakfast, tablets, dogs, dinner. Then she watches the TV this morning and then about 1:30 she'll have lunch, we'll have a chat, then she'll do what she does in the afternoon, eat about half past six, watch the tv, have a chat, go upstairs. So she has the absolute rigidity and that structure. She always knows where she is. Even if she forgets things, she's got that structure behind her. And I think structure is absolutely everything. When people live a free for all, then that's when you face difficulties in life. Yeah. And I, I think that you've learned that, haven't you, through your Royal Marines, Philip? Well, I just. Maria. Yes, but not the Marines. I mean, basically through life, I mean, you, you, you have to sort of adhere to a structure. And that structure you've got to create for yourself. You know, you, you, we. I wouldn't be able to run the businesses I've been running or my head hunting practice or the trust company that I'm now setting up without really adhering to a lot of structure and the structure that's imposed by my business partners as well. I mean, we are a, we're a unit and it's. If you've got four of you together, you try and make that unit really, really pull in each direction. So everyone's got a role to have. Structure is very, very important. And I mean, I was, I think you want me to talk a little bit about the Mont Blanc experience, Maria, don't you? Because you like that story. Yeah, but it's not just that, it's. How did you, if you can give us an overview briefly, you were stuck on. You went up to Mont Blanc for a day. Yeah, we need. And you ended up being there for eight days. But what was your thinking and how did you get out of it? Well, again, I was with, I was with, well, two other, two other guys up there, so three of us. But talking about having to support one another and support one another on a, on a minute by minute basis. I mean, we were watching one another to make sure that, you know, no one was going to fail and no one was going to sort of die, I suppose, although the conditions were quite extreme. So it was by performing sort of functions for one another, like melting the snow in bottles and making sure everyone had enough water. Can I just give everybody just a little bit more information? You were doing a walk to Mont Blanc on this particular day. Everybody did. It was quite a common walk. But on this particular day you were snowed in and nobody expected that. What happened is as amateur mountaineers and we should have known better, we didn't really plan and I went up with another chap and met some other guys up there. But you're right, we were going to hit the top of Mont Blanc trying to storm it and get to the top. Didn't take enough provisions, didn't take water, gas, food, anything like that. So we got stranded on the top because if you can see the weather that we have today, how bad it is. It was like that back, I think it was 1987, June 1987. It was particularly sort of horrendous weather and we had an enforced stay up there for. Yes, you're absolutely right about the number of days. It was eight. And it wasn't the most comfortable of hotels in Europe, certainly the highest, the highest refuge I think it was in Europe. But I learned a lot about myself and a lot about personal interaction and how I'd look after my fellow human being in addition to having to look after myself. A lot of stories on that trip came out in terms of that have helped me, helped me on the way forward in terms of my day to day human interactions with people and how I treat them. And there, apart from compassion, which I think is a very, very important and wonderful aspect of humanity is meaning. Did you find a meaning there that you have held onto subsequently? Yeah, the basic sort of tenant was we wanted to stay alive. So we discovered we had meaning in our lives and we wanted those lives to continue. And there was a time where most evenings when you drifted off into sleep because it was minus 20 degrees, you thought, oh my goodness, have I got the strength to get through this freezing cold night? Am I actually going to wake up tomorrow morning? Because we were very dehydrated, we had no food for days and days and we'd lost our energy. Our energy had just completely depleted. So I think when it comes to meaning, Ria, it was a meaning of our lives, summary of our lives to date and all the things we wanted to go forward and do as, as humans, right the way forward. And I often look back thinking that was a long time ago, 1987. And here I am now in 2021. And how lucky I am to have had all those years beyond that experience. Because that could have been the end of your life, fundamentally. Several occasions where it almost was. Yeah. It's a story that. Yeah. When we've got more time, we will talk in detail. It's such a powerful experience to have. It's almost like a near death experience. But Jane, how do you find meaning in your life? Where did you get the meaning for. To drive you forward? You obviously have got this wonderful energy, this determination to make things better, not only just in the thought process, which is in itself brilliant, but also magical because you make it happen and you're not afraid to make it happen. So tell me about that. How do you get that meaning and the magic of creating something absolutely brilliant in your community? I was absolutely with my, with my father. He was always very punty spirited, kind of very involved in politics and charity work and you know, my father, I adored my father. I still miss him every single day. You know, He's. He left three years ago at 95 and you know, the world ended in part for me. It'll never be the same again. Yeah. But I'm just trying to carry on in the vein that he taught me. And I definitely think the parents have, they shaped what a person is. I really feel that and I think that I've tried to emulate what he can, he can do. And when my dad passed away, the local press did a piece on my dad because he did so much and you know, the issues that he overcame in his life, he saw his parents and his brother die. It was horrific. You know, he came from nothing, my father, he left London, his family came to Cardiff, lived with a cousin with nothing and he worked and he became an estate agent. And he, you know, cared for us and provides us with a lovely life and a family. And I just wanted to just make him proud, really. And I think I was so lucky to have such great parents to kind of put me in that direction really. But you are standing and as we all are standing on the shoulders of giants. And I think the tragedy, as we hear more and more about mental health, people blame their parents. And I, at times, some people have a right to blame their parents. You know, some parents are very careless. They can be violent, they can be abusive, they can be physically, mentally and sexually abusive to their children. And absolutely, that is not how parents should be with their children. But there are the vast majority that regardless of what goes Wrong. We are all standing on the shoulders of our parents and shoulders of giants, because whatever they've taught us, they have also taught us what's right, how to move on correctly and how to move on and not do the same if we can not to re experience what they have done. And I think that is where the art of mental health comes into play, which is how do we recreate and, or create our newer self? And you stand on, you have that foundation, but you grow, you see the world and you can take it forward. You've got to take those opportunities, the opportunities that you both could have ignored. You could have said, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to move forward because it's too painful. I'm going to get bullied here or I'm not going to live. I can make the easy choice of not bothering to get out of bed or, you know, let somebody else look after me. But both of you have chosen to move forward, keep moving forward. And that to me is recreating yourself. And that is the joy and the art of life, the individuality that. That being able to see the benefits of our parents, our ancestors and moving forward from that. And that's exactly what you're doing. But your impact in Wales is not a small one, is it, Jane? Well, I've tried to help lots of people, you know, with different aspects of work, such as charity work, and also try to grow the council group and to help them as well. Yeah, I've tried to do as much as I can to. I was a teacher by profession previously, so I'm helping with the believe organ donation charity, where we're trying to, you know, spread the word about having the conversation about organ donation. I've done, yeah, I was nominated for a social media award, which is kind of a national award, and I've got an MBA for my services charity. So, you know, I'm proud of the achievements, but it can't be done. It's not done by one person, it's done collectively by lots of people who help me and who have got that confidence and trust that I can, you know, succeed, really. But they have to trust you and you have to show that you can make it happen. And I think that's the key of life generally, is people need to find the leaders that they can trust and I think we need that, you know, sort of we need people in authority that can guide us, move us forward, lead us forward. And I think we're beginning to see the difference between those who can lead Us forward and those who just say they can and yeah, definitely. Yeah, you're only as good as your bad is your worst decision, they say. And, you know, if you say you're going to do something at one o' clock on a Tuesday, you've got to do it. You only get one. With me, you get one shot. Unless obviously there's circumstances where somebody's ill or something goes wrong. But if people let you down, you don't have that confidence to you the next time. There's that element of doubt. Yeah. Often there was a quote, and I can't remember if it was Nietzsche who said, you know, I'm not. When somebody lies to me, I'm not disappointed that they have lied. I'm just disappointed that I can never trust them again. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, a lot of my friends get angry. They want revenge. Oh my God, they've done this to you. They've done that. I'm like, become more successful, have more hits on social media, have a better job. That will really annoy them twice. Twice as much. Yeah. But also it gives you the motivation. It's how do you. And a lot of it is projection. A lot of people cannot take that forward. They can't find it in themselves. And I think this is where mental health to just quickly, because we're going to tie up very shortly in our humanness, is to recreate ourselves in a better way. So if I can just say that here we're talking about love and work as a cornerstone of our humanness. Philip, would you add compassion? Would that be the one that you would add? I think you have to be compassionate and you have to see the views of others, those people in front of you. And I think that's a. That's a very good word to add, Maria. Compassion, the need, desire to understand what's going through the other person's emotional thoughts and mental thoughts. And what about you, Jane? I agree about the compassion, but also to have a listening ear as well. So many people don't have the opportunity for somebody to listen to them. People talk at them and shout at them and, you know, order directions. But you need somebody to listen and to try and, you know, put you on that. Right. It was very interesting. A friend of mine has got a brilliant family life. They wanted him to be happy, whereas my parents wanted me to be successful. And everyone's got those life choices. And I think, you know, there's no right or wrong in how people bring people up. But I was lucky that I had parents that were pushy but in a positive way. Absolutely. So let's just add to work and strife as cornerstones, we'll add compassion, self awareness, understanding, listening to others, humor and meaning. And can I just say, thank you, Philip Price for today and Jane Cowan for engaging in this amazing discussion. And I'm sure lots of people have learned something quite magical today. Thank you, Maria. Thank you, Jane. Lovely to meet. Nice to meet you. Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity, both. Okay, bye. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.