Your Mind Matters – Sophie Bonor & Harvey Camisa-Bundy, Young Love

The course of true love never did run smooth, said Lysander in Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream. Shakespeare, along with Dickens, Jane Austen and many mythological stories, including Psyche and Eros, are all based and focused on the joys and complexities of love. Love is an elusive magical attraction which changes our chemistry, our lives and our future. High levels of dopamine are released in our body, making us giddy and euphoric. Norepinephrine, also known as noradrenaline, kicks into high gear. The reward centers in our brain are fired up, giving us the falling feeling when we fall in love. How does love change what CG Jung called the cosmic wonder known as the human psyche? It's the psychological component of attachment as the predominant psychological factor in long term relationships. During this time, two primary hormones are released, oxytocin and vasopressin. Oxytocin is the bonding hormone, the one that kicks in when you have children in families. The love bond, basically. And vasopressin supports vigilance and behaviors needed to guard the partner, our partner or territory, much like the lion or the lioness would guard their cubs. The psyche has many facets and which component is triggered at which time is very individual. Some theorists say it's Eros meeting the shadow. That's love meeting a little bit of the darker side of ourselves. Well, I say little bit. We all have two areas to our lives, the good and the less good. Our favorite quote, or my favourite quote is from CG Jung that says the meeting of two personalities is like the contact of chemical substances. If there is any reaction, both are transformed. My name is Dr. Maria Kompinska and now I would like to welcome my wonderful guests to youo Mind Matters, who will discuss young love in the best and worst of times. Firstly, I'd like to introduce Sophie Bornal. Can I give you, or can you give us your background, Sophie? And what is it you're doing now? What work are you doing now? Yeah, so I'm Sophie, I'm 23 and I graduated from the University of Reading last year, which was incredibly tough as final year is for most people. But I mean, graduating in a, in a pandemic was definitely very challenging. So I did education studies at uni, which initially I did psychology and then changed courses. So yeah, got a 2:1. Well done. Yeah, thank you. And then, so from then, since graduating, it was kind of fighting to try and find anything, battling between do I go for something that's going to give me experience or do I wait it out? But then realizing that although I'd applied for so many different positions and keeping my options as open as possible, I just wasn't getting much back. So it was definitely a kind of a struggle and sat down with kind of family members and my partner thinking, what do I do? How do I go on from here? But around November last year, so just after my birthday, I was contacted by one of Reading University's alumni and he was asking if I wanted to help him out on a project that he was involved with. And there I got involved with Biki, which is a startup company and we are an audio platform which is designed to help people with their motivation and inspiration in work, but also elsewhere in their lives. So, yes, since doing that, it's been really, really fun. I'm working as a social media marketing manager. So from going from a graduate in a pandemic to not having much experience to being a manager to someone else, it's gone pretty crazy, really. But yes, that's what I'm doing at the moment. Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. And I really want to explore a little bit more about your work shortly because it's such an interesting. Is it going to be an application, an app? Yeah. So, I mean, we've. We've had different kind of ideas about how we go with this and I think as well from everyone working from home. And this last year, I think it's. It's more important than ever to really help each other with motivation within your company. And there are people working from home who have no one around them in a flat in London by themselves, who have no human interaction. So we felt that the importance of voice and the importance of human connection is so vital right now. So that's what we're focusing on. But we're developing the software to be within like Slack and teams. Yeah. So, yeah, it's going to be an integration app, which is. And when is that coming out? So we were thinking hopefully by the end of April or by the end of spring sometime. That's very exciting. Yeah, it's all going on right now. Yeah, I bet. And lovely. So we will go further into that and how that can help people, especially around your story as well, and what you've learned. And also now I'd like to introduce Harvey Camisa Bundy. Can you give us your background and what work are you doing? Because it's also a new job for you. Fairly new, yes. I started my. I was Lucky, so I finished uni a year before Sophie, so I finished Lucky in October 19th. So just before the pandemic started. Yeah, I was able to get a job before the whole world crisis happened. So I work for a company called London Forfeiting. Okay. Basically just trade finance, which in general terms is we provide financial solutions to exporters, importers and financial institutions. And we do this across the world mainly. But our main target areas are emerging markets, so Africa, Turkey, Bangladesh, Asia. So that's what we deal more in. Which was quite an opener to me because obviously I'd never really done much research into these kind of countries, which I find very interesting and does give me a bit more. It makes me enjoy my job a lot more than just looking at the same old stuff every day. Yes. So do you have to understand the financial backgrounds and the type of finance that each country has? Yes. So I would basically just write a report on if we're dealing with a country, just on the. On the basic financials of that country. And then you'd also look at the politics, any kind of other factors that might come into it, like even natural disasters and things like that. So that is quite interesting. And it can change. Like one week I can be looking at Uzbekistan and the next week I could be looking in Africa. So it is quite varied, which I do enjoy and especially after doing economics at uni. Yeah, it's kind of brought my degree to life. Instead of being all theory. Yes. I was going to say, because what's so interesting about particularly. Well, both your worlds are so, as they say, current, and they didn't exist to this extent 10 years ago. It would be very different. So they're quite new. So what you're learning at university, does that. Is that very old or is it still quite new? So did they manage to introduce new ideas to you? So what I learned at uni, what I didn't realize before doing economics was the degree is very much theory from hundred years ago. So it's kind of how economics started and the fundamentals to it. Yeah. So I actually didn't really get to put it into practice until I started my job, which that is because that's what I was. I was a little bit. I wouldn't say disappointed with the degree, but I thought it would be more practical and what's actually going on in the world around me. Yeah. Which I didn't see, as I said, until I joined lfc. Yeah. But at least it gave me that background of I can then put the theory into practice. Yeah. So it gives you the background. What's so interesting is, and I think this is the dilemma and the joy of today's world is you've got to have the background, it gives you sort of an understanding of how things have developed. At the same time is trying to make sense of your new world quite quickly because educational facilities, they can't go through the rigor of the educational tests, if you like, on new theories because the theory is being developed as you speak. So for example, every business school, when I started my business, I didn't go through a school or a unique to do that. I trained as a teacher. But you know, we were used as a case study at the London School of Business when I started Jongla's comedy clubs. And that was very interesting because they took something that was real and in fact would still be relevant today. But most of them rely on models that now must be outdated. So you're both at the forefront of new concepts, new models and that's really quite powerful, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah. So something, I'm going to jump to something before we come to your relationship. I'm jumping on the point of work. Freud claimed that love and work are important for our well being. Sophie, do you agree with that? I do actually, yeah. I mean, I think you've got to have a balance between both in order to feel, you know, for your, your mind, your, your body, everything to kind of be what it should be. If you're, if you're having, if you're having a hard time at work, then your, well, being at home isn't going to be great and vice versa. Yeah. And do you agree with that? I mean, for you, Harvey, because really women, and this is not flying any flag, it's just the reality of life, how the world was structured, that women really weren't able to get jobs until about, really 30 years ago, which isn't that long ago. You know, it wasn't until the turn of the last century were women given the vote. And in some countries my parents were Polish, so my mother was trained as a mathematician, although she lost everything. They both lost everything during the war. But so they were geared up to. She was a mathematician, my father was training as a barrister. Both male and female work together in Poland. They came to England and a woman was not given the opportunities and a lot of the systems that were in place were not geared to women being independent. But for you, Harvey, you know, do you believe love and work are the bedrock to making people happy? I believe so, yeah. Because I believe it's all a balance, really. You've got to have a healthy balance and that isn't a general term. It Depends on each person in each couple. For me, as I think if work's stressing you out and you've got a heavy workload, the last thing you want is to finish that work and then be around someone who that connection is not there or there's a bit of tension because it's just going to aggravate you even more. So I do believe that you need a good, healthy balance to have a nice and healthy life. Really. Yeah. So let's explore your relationship as much as we can. So how did you meet? Where did you meet? What was the point of meeting? Well, so we both went to University of Reading and we were both in first year and so we joined Reading in 2016, September 2016, and then it wasn't until January 2017. So what they call refreshers at uni. So it's like your freshers week. But again you basically get to go out for another week before lectures start for the next term. And so we were both at the union and I think it was a very quiet night, wasn't it? There's not many people back and I mean I was in the smoking area and my friends had just gone off to go to the toilet. So it was the kind of classic, wait there, I'll come back. And I guess Harvey just saw me sitting there. Yeah. I thought she looked a bit lonely, so I thought I'd go and strike some conversation up. And then it went from there. Really. We kind of just like didn't stop talking. Yeah. Because we got on more as friends first. Yeah. And then it kind of moved into something more serious. But that wasn't through anyone trying. That was more just a natural progression really. Yeah. So that must have been perfect at the beginning of a student, you know, your student life, because it can be very disorientating and lonely, can't it? Absolutely, yeah. And I think, think we. I mean I. I'd come out of. Of a year relationship and I just come out of a nearly four year relationship as well, so. So I think we were both kind of like not really looking for anything. For anything. Yeah. And it just happened, really. It was just a natural thing that happened. That's a nice thing though. I'm kind of glad it happened like that because neither of us were looking just kind of fell and that was just how it has. And four years on and we're still going strong. Fantastic. I must say, I was going to say, what was the attraction? Clearly it's the fact that you managed to talk so well together and become friends because you know, without a friendship, actually in the long term, you know, love changes over time and, you know, sort of you. If you aren't friends and you can't talk, everybody says this, you know, you've got to be able to communicate. I am going to sort of tell that story about, you know, sort of. What was the first attraction? Carolina Hearn, the amazing comedy actress, when she was Mrs. Merton, when she was interviewing Paul Daniels wife at that time, she did say to her wonderful question was, what first attracted you to the millionaire Paul Daniels? Now, I know in your case that wasn't the case, but was there something specific, you know, is it instinctive that you went over and said, hi, Harvey? Well, obviously she's a very attractive woman. So that was obviously a helping hand, but it was just more the fact that we're uni students, everyone's kind of making friends, things like that. And I just saw that she was on her own, and I just thought, I'll just go have a conversation with her. And that's your nature, is it? Are you very sociable yourself? I was, yeah. Back then I definitely was not more than I am now. I think I was a lot more out there. And I didn't. Because when you're young and you're starting uni, it was like a fresh start. Yeah. So I just thought, you know what? I'll talk to everyone, see what. And then, yeah, I'm lucky. I did, really. And were you both suffering from the sadness of a lost love or a lost relationship at that time, too? I wasn't, because my. I. So I was single for about five months and then I met. So. So for me, that part. I moved on from that part. Yeah, I'm definitely the same. My first relationship was when I was in school and that kind of broke down quite horribly. So my ex, before going to uni, I was only with him for a short time and. But I think. I think for me anyway, I was definitely kind of done relationships. I didn't want another one. I guess it's like that whole kind of saying, you know, you chase a bus or you wait around for a bus and, you know, four comes at once. You're not. You're not looking for anything, and then it comes up and it smacks you right in the face. Metaphorically, of course. Yeah, I didn't do that when I first saw it. And so here we are. You then were at uni together, and then who left first? So I left the year before Sophie did, because where Sophie changed course, she had to basically redo first year. Yeah. So I just did the three year course. So I was out in 2019 and Sophie was out in 2020. So it was quite a struggle actually at the start because I had to obviously work. So we'd gone from being with each other every day for three years pretty much to basically a long distance relationship which I was working from 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, and Soph was up at Reading. So it did bring a new challenge to our relationship. Absolutely. Yeah. And what was, how did you. What was it? How would you describe that challenge? What happened? I think, I think like, like Harvey's said, when you go from that kind of intense, like being with each other for. Yeah, pretty much every day to. And I mean, because we only live half an hour away from each other, even in the summers and in the university breaks, we were still seeing each other every day. So we went from being around each other all the time to then at least Monday to Friday, having to FaceTime or call. Yeah. And I guess for the first, I mean, for me for the first couple of weeks it was quite hard, but then got to saw you on the weekends and then you kind of. For myself, I feel like that there was a whole kind of realization that I could be alone and like that my relationship was a bonus to me as a person. I got to kind of do all the things that I wanted to do by myself. You know, I got to. I got to do pretty much everything by myself and just kind of fall in love with myself again whilst having Harvey there. Yeah, if that. And then it made the time that we did see with each other made that more kind of special because obviously we weren't with each other for the whole week. So we made the most of it when we were together. Yeah. Because very often when I have couples in relationships that come into, you know, sort of for psychotherapy because I'm also part time psychotherapist. I often think that what has changed now in the dynamics of relationships is because women have their lives and men have their lives, is who are they together? How do they bond together? What is their script? I call it. Yeah. What is their sort of love bubble? You know, I was listening to about Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban. Their lives, they always make sure that they talk to each other. They never, they never send texts. They have long conversations when they're away from each other. Because, you know, although texting and although social media and messaging services are fantastic for work, and if you use them in relationships, it can also give you a bit of a distance yeah. So it's keeping that closeness. Did you find that you created new closeness between each other? I definitely feel that spending time apart in my final year of university, when Harv was at home, I definitely thought that helped us. Yeah. And like we would. I mean, we're not really texters anyway. Yeah. We only kind of text if we see something on TikTok. I don't really enjoy texting, so I think it can get all. It can get lost in translation and certain things can look how you don't want it to look. Yeah. So I prefer just picking up the phone and having a call, really. Yeah. And that's the thing, like we'll call for hours and hours and hours when we're not together. But then when we are together, it's like nothing ever runs dry. We can just talk for hours and hours, can't we? So do you have similar music tastes? Do you do similar things? No, not at all. Ah, there you are. Literally not at all. I mean, in that kind of aspect we are quite different. Yeah. But I think that helps though, because I don't think I could be with someone like me. So I think I need someone else who's a bit different to kind of. Yeah. Just. Yeah. I think it's good to have a few differences. Yeah. I mean, there are. I mean, obviously we do. There are things that we do agree on, but I think in that kind of aspect, music. I mean, you like your old music. Yeah, I. I don't really know that I have like a specific genre that I listen to. You like TV series, I like films. So you can imagine what it's like trying to put something on the tv. We can never agree on anything. But then I feel like we have the same kind of values which, you know, what are they? I think we both, we. We both like our alone time. So like, for example, you know, Harvey will play PlayStation and I'll sit there and watch my program. Yeah. Even though we're together, we're kind of having our alone time. And like I said when I was in final year, we had that time to just be ourselves and then kind of come back together and then spend couple time. I think we do kind of appreciate time together and then time apart. Values, other value. What other values? I mean, we're both very kind of social people. Yeah. Are you family orientated? Tell us about your name, Harvey. Kamisa. Where does that come from? So that the. Kamisa, basically. Kamisa Bundy is. My mum is Kamisa and my dad is Bundy and my mum didn't want to be known as Nancy Bundy. So the kamisa is from her dad. So my pops and he is from Italy. So basically he was over here during the Second World War. He was over here with his, his dad and his mum. But when the war started happening they, my, his dad thought it was a bit dangerous so they, he sent his wife and my pops back to Italy. Okay. He, his dad got kept here in a prisoner of war camp. Oh yeah, he didn't see his dad for about the first eight years of his life. So he had that. But yeah, the name comes from Italy. And then my dad's side, the Bundy that is just all English. Okay, coming back to the point of the prisoner of war camp, they slightly different to the German concentration camps. So what did happen during the Second World War? People might not know this and those who do know their history will know this that they did create certain camps here. They were more sort of internment camps as opposed to concentration camps where they put foreigners into them to sort of as a safeguard measure. Now if we recall during the Second World War that Italy, including Mussolini was on the side of Hitler. Not all Italians, let's be clear about that. That there was that side that Mussolini was very much on the side of Hitler. And the Italians themselves went through such a terrible time. But. So the rest of your family went over theirs. But nevertheless that sort of separation creates a deep anxiety. Did that affect your pops? Do you know what? I don't think it did too. Obviously it must have not been very nice. But I think where he was so young, it was just kind of became a norm to him. And then they eventually once the war was over, he, he did come back and then they stayed in England. He's lived in England his whole life now. So he's been here his whole time. And what is their Dr. What do they do? What work do they do? So he owned, he owned a very successful delicatessen in Soho called Ikamezer and Sons. Oh, fantastic. Which was. Yeah, it was quite. It's still there now. Yeah, so he did that which was his dad owned. So it was more of a family run kind of thing. So he did that really. And he did that, all that I remember. Yeah, he did that and he had a few other shops. I think he also had a factory where he did like a food factory. So he's done a few different things here and there. Yeah, but very self motivated. Yeah, very, very. Yeah. I mean he came over to England, he had to. He didn't speak a word of English. He had to go to, obviously, an English school and he was just known as a foreigner. Really? Yeah. And now he speaks. I think he speaks about six languages. Yes, he. Fantastic. Yeah. So he's a very smart individual. How lovely. So, and your mother, what did she do? My mum. Yeah. So my mum is. So she. When. As soon as we were born. So I've got a brother and a sister. As soon as we were born, she. She stopped work and she just decided to look off, look after us. Yeah, fantastic. Unselfishly. No, but I think. Do you know what? I think that's always the dilemma. We'll come on to you, Sophie, because every woman has this dilemma when they go to work. How do they manage children and work and can it be managed effectively and so on. And I know our society tries to gear up to that, but it also depends on the child, what support you have. But the understanding of our partners, when you have children, you know, you seem to. You have a very connected family, you can talk, you have an understanding of what it takes to raise children and the family connection. But moving to you, Sophie, what about your parents? Yeah, so my mum, she. My mum was actually born in Rochester, New York. Okay. Yeah. And came back to. Both her parents were Scottish and they moved back to Scotland when she was about 3. So then she lived there until she was about 21 and then moved down to London for career prospects. And then. Yes, it was 21 and then mum and dad met in near. Near where I live now, which is Dartford. They were both working for the same company, so they met there and then. Yeah, been. Well, they. They split up about 10 or so years ago, which was. Which was. I was about 15. And that was. That was tough. I mean, I was. I think divorce is always a pretty traumatic experience, especially for, you know, for the children involved. But we weren't children, me and my brother. My brother was at university. I was, I say 15. So we were old enough to kind of know what was going on, but not old enough to kind of understand. Yeah, totally. So it's still quite a young age. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, at that age, I think. I mean, where I was living at home, I think I definitely had to grow up and just kind of had to deal with it in my own way. And I think that's where kind of. I think developed kind of, I want to say, like, depression, like an anxiety. I've kind of had these mental health issues since then, which maybe has kind of stemmed from that point, I guess. And that's. I mean, That's a. That's been a kind of factor in our relationship, hasn't it? We. I mean, you have next to no experience with. With mental health. And whereas, you know, I've been. I've. I've had it for as long as I can kind of remember now. So that was definitely. That was triggered, do you think, by your parents? Divorce? Yeah, I mean, I do believe so. I think that's from when it started. Yeah. What are your symptoms then? How do you know when you're well? Deep stress. Yeah. When. So, I mean, back then I just. It was. I mean, I just every. I mean, to kind of talk. I mean, frankly, I mean, everything just kind of had a bit of a dark cloud over it. Yeah. I mean, and I was just. I knew something wasn't right, you know, I wasn't happy like I used to be. And I think being a teenager with depression or any kind of mental health issues, I think back then it was. I felt like there wasn't much going on to kind of support teens with depression. I do feel like there's been more now and there's more campaigning, which I think is absolutely amazing, but I think back then it was still kind of like. Stigma. Yeah, stigma. And how do we help them? Because we can't put teenagers on pills. We have to, you know, wait till they're 18. And as it happened, as soon as I turned 18, I was put on salopram, which. And so, yeah, so I just. I do kind of feel there's. I feel like it's something that I'm always going to struggle with, but I've learned different coping mechanisms for various different triggers that I encounter. And having a partner who is so supportive and who hasn't had any experience with it, I feel like. Thank you. Yeah, totally. Can I just ask you about a couple of the. This would be for our listeners. They can learn something here and perhaps use some of your coping mechanisms because everybody has to adapt to themselves because we're all so unique. We like to think at times we're not, but we are, which makes it wonderful to be individual, but equally difficult because not everybody has the same answers. What are your coping mechanisms? What are the triggers and what are your coping mechanisms? Well, I think. I mean, the trigger. I mean, for me, I'm definitely. I overthink. I can sit there on my own and overthink and overthink. So I definitely think when I'm getting into that kind of point where I am overthinking, I will almost, I guess, kind of condition I've conditioned myself to kind of go for a walk or do something that's going to distract me. So I'll do the cleaning or do the dishes or I'll go for a walk or. I mean, it's been better since living with Harvey for this lockdown, because then can just. We can just have a chat, and it will distract me. Mm. But I guess for things where. And that's for just when I kind of need a bit of distraction, but for things that are kind of getting me down, talking about it is definitely the best way I feel. I mean, the other day, I was. I kind of had a bit of a moment and was really upset, and I didn't know how to vocalize it. Yeah. So Harvey just said, just tell me what you're thinking, and I did. And we kind of went through the next steps of. Right. Okay, so if that's how you're feeling, how can we resolve that or how can we minimalize that feeling? Just going through it and just vocalizing it really, really does help. And I guess the kind of last one is just thinking, you know, I've been through it before. I can get over this. And I think it was Steve Harvey that said, you have survived 100% of your bad days. Yeah. Which is so true. You know, you've been through the worst times, and you've come on the other side, and, you know, I'm here, so I can do it again. Well, it's so interesting. A psychotherapist colleague of mine, she used to say, the worst day, the hardest transition you've ever had is your birth. And you've come through that, and you come into somewhere warm and cozy and comfortable, full of oxytocin and love, and you're born into this world, and that's a real powerful movement. And that if you can come through that, you can get through so much. But equally, having Harvey to support you, understanding and being able to communicate, sounds so beneficial for you. Absolutely. You know, and your work now is going to sort of reflect that. But when you get these triggers, are you saying you didn't used to get them when you were younger? It just sort of happened when you're a teenager, or did you just become aware of them? I think I became more aware of them since. Since being a teenager. I used to just kind of get these feelings and, like, just wouldn't know how to deal with it, cope with it, and then I would let it ruin the rest of my day. I think. I think since kind of recognizing. Right. I am feeling Like. Like I am feeling like my anxiety is getting a bit of a hold of me. I need to do this or I'll talk to Harvey about it. Or, you know, sometimes doing some breathing exercises. Work. Breathing is so helpful. That sort of. Just deep breathing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And grounding yourself, as they say in that term. And I think it's so important to know what works for you. Absolutely. You know, because again, coming to this point, that it's recognizing it and working out what does work for you and how to vocalize it. And it's great that Harvey asked you, you know, what do you feel? What is going on? Does it have a root? It does. What normally triggers it? Oh, well, I mean, I don't really know. I mean, it can really just come out of anywhere. Yeah. I think the main thing is, like, me overthinking. I think it just from that, if I'm. If I think about something too, too much sometimes. Sorry, Harvey gone. When you get over, when she gets overwhelmed. Yeah. Normally, so many things are going on in her head, so I just tell her to get a piece of paper and a pen and just write everything down and then just rationalize it and put it into an order and start picking the things off. Then it doesn't seem as much and as bad. Yeah, it's overwhelming. Yeah. Sometimes there's a lot of that. I think at the moment that there's so much that is expected on the individual more than ever before. And, you know, you sort of. You live at home, you've got all your bills to pay. It now becomes a workplace. You've got that to deal with. Can you communicate? You've got that to deal with. Who's there to support me? You've got that to deal with. And also then you've got all your council tax, and then you've got your gas and electricity and nobody is there to help. I think, you know, sort of when you come, when you're from home at that early stage and you turn around and you've got your parents to help because. And a community, whether it's a family or friends of a certain style or type or, you know, sort of nationality, you've got people to turn to. But if you feel alone and become overwhelmed, how the hell do you deal with everything is crucial for people. I've had very anxious clients that say, I feel unsafe. It's like the bottom has gone. I don't know where I'm going to land, you know, at the bottom of my life. Where am I? What am I doing? And at those points also, I suggest and help them to keep on doing the day to day stuff. So if you're in the army, those points are always dealt with in the army. Get up at a certain time, make your bed, you know, as you say, you clean. I know a lot of my clients that clean. Tidy, make the place tidy, make it livable in. Make the food, make sure you've got food. Know what time of day it is. Start making those lists. Put your life in order and as you do, express it verbally and write it down. I think it can be very helpful. But often where you come in, Harvey, and so brilliantly and so naturally is that you do it, you know, sort of. That you understand. And that's the joy of both of you being slightly different in your thinking that you're saying, put this in order, Sophie, put it in order, write it down, make a list. And I think that can really help put things in order. Then you become less overwhelmed, less afraid. Absolutely. Seeing it because, Because I mean, for me as well, I just. It's like when it's all in my head. Yeah. It's like things are just flying about and there's no. You're trying to think of, right, what do I need to do? And then actually seeing on paper. Yeah. Makes you just think, well, it's not that bad. Yeah, I can do this. Yeah. And I mean, that's what's so remarkable about you, Harvey. You've never really had to kind of deal with this kind of thing before, but it almost kind of comes natural to you. I think a lot of it as well, because I knew that you didn't have any kind of experience with this, with mental health or anything. It was quite hard to vocalize to you because people who don't suffer from mental health issues tend to kind of like just not understand. It did take me a couple of a while to adjust to it and realize that, yeah, this is. This is what it's like. This is when she has her bad days, this is how to deal with her and certain things like that. But once you adjusted to it and realized what worked for Soph and I found it quite, quite straightforward in how to get her back on the right track. Yeah. So coming back to your thinking, because I really think this is. You have the key to many people's needs at the moment, Funny enough, I don't mean it in a sort of. I do believe it's not only the person that's suffering, going through it, but the person who can help. That is key. How do you? Help is key. So how did you change? Did you ever feel that, oh, my goodness, this is because of me? Harvey, did you ever feel that this is my fault, that Sophie's feeling? Yeah. At the start, when she was having certain bad days, I would just think, oh, I've given her the hump. So I'd be like, what have I done wrong? And then it would aggravate her more because she'd be like, you haven't done anything. It's not you. Yeah. So I realized that and got my head around that. Yeah. I found it a lot more straightforward because at the end of the day, all that I needed to be was a set of ears. Yeah. Just to have a lit. Just to listen and let her vocalize what's going on. Yeah. Because very often a certain psychological type. I also trained in psychological types. So some people jump in and they need to create a cure. If you like, I've got to put your world right. Because if I can't put your world right, we're both going to fall apart. Or. This is my job. This is my role. I've got to help you. I've got to make it right. If you can put that to aside for the moment, which you do, and just listen. Listening is whether it's a therapist or a friend or somebody who is supporting another person, whether they're going through, you know, the lightest of depression, being fed up, the world has suddenly changed, or, you know, they can't cope to the most severe. It's, you know, just listening and understanding. This is something going on within that person, and this has got a power of its own. And how do I listen to it is so important. And what am I listening to? Do you also find that you then, by listening, Harvey, you can work out what sort of help Sophie needs? Yeah. And it made me understand it a lot more because then I can then see what's going on in her head. Yeah. Obviously one issue for Soph in my head is it's not even an issue. It's because I'm obviously a lot more rational thinking. Yes. My head. At first, I think, why are you stressing over? There's nothing to be stressed about. Okay. As she opened up and I listened more and understood it more, I was able to realize what kind of she needs to do to get her back on track. So can you give an example of how you worked that out? You know, not just the working out what, you know, sort of what you suggested. What were your suggestions to help? Well, it was more. It was More kind of just when she was feeling overwhelmed and when she was feeling down, I would just sit down and say, first of all, tell me what's on your mind, because you might. You have to share it. So she. And then we do that and then once that was done, we get. We sit down, list it all out and then just really work on what she thinks is the main priority and then just work from there, really. Ah, so you help Sophie find order in. Yeah, as you put it, in that chaos. Now, when you're as more of a creative, which I think you are safely here, you know, our trigger points are always chaotic because the world of the creative comes in altogether. There's no order. You create an order out of chaos. And yet if you're more your way of thinking, Harvey, order is part of the discipline that you've already got. That's the mathematical brain, if you like. So you will see something and you'll put it in order very quickly. Yeah, I've always been like that as well. With everything I've always done, I've always been able to kind of put it in when it. When work gets a bit much and there's a lot of things going on, I'll just sit back, take a minute and write it down and see what I've got to do and then just go from there. And I've always done that. I've done that with my a levels, my GCSEs, my degree. Yeah, it's something that comes quite naturally to me, quite logical. Yeah. So what you're. Also. Something you said is take away the emotion from it. And that doesn't mean that you don't love somebody. You're not. It doesn't mean. Or you continue to behave in a loving banner. And this is where people make a mistake about, oh, take the emotion out. No, it's to take the stress out of it, to take the worry out of it. The anxiety is emotional and it's to. How can you look at this slight separation and having a partner like yourself or somebody around who can help, who can step in and just give order to a disorder with the person is so powerful. So not just for. Not just for you as a couple, but anybody who has somebody in the family that needs that help, that sort of slight distance is so, as I said, powerful, but also can be the saving grace of a relationship. Yeah, definitely. Because very often the damage that can happen within the relationship is if the partner takes that person's feelings so personally that they start defending themselves and they get into an Argument which so easily can happen. So here we see that your differences help. And tell me, what work did your parents do or do your parents do, Sophie? Well, so they, they're both. Well, they all. They. Both of them have worked in HR all their life. My mom's retired now, my dad's. My dad's still going, so he's HR Senior Director, an advertising technology company. And like I said, mum's retired now. So I think that's the thing with my kind of career goals. I did. And when I was looking at different roles and applying for different roles after graduating, I did kind of focus on more HR roles. I thought that it would be quite interesting seeing as both parents have been within HR their whole lives and I feel like I do take after that, them in that kind of aspect. I am quite a, you know, people person and so, so that's what they've done. And how much of that influenced your life, having both a mother and father that worked. I mean, we, me and my brother, we, obviously we would have liked them around a little bit more, but them working meant that we could live in a nice house, we could go on holiday two or three times a year. We. We had everything that we wanted growing up. And that's the thing. Like, my childhood was amazing. Me and brother had the best childhood. Such a. It was such a. It was so distressing when, when they split up because it was like, well, what now? Yeah, yeah. And that's. Is that the hole you sort of fell into? I guess so. I guess so. It was. Well, where do we go from this? Yeah. Is what people don't realize. And I do think. I was going to say, is there enough education given about relationships, about divorce, about getting on about mental health? And I do think that what people don't realize is when people get divorced, it is like a death, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because it's all your future has gone. Yeah. You know, your hopes and dreams. Every sort of future event that you've got planned has changed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and yeah, it's not really treat. Yeah. It's not treated like a bereavement. So Freud did a lot of work about mourning and melancholia. You know, sort of mourning is when there's somebody dies and, you know, sort of. Your family on your Italian side would have dealt with this quite a lot, I should have thought, Harvey, because. And those people whose families went to war in the uk, I know my family certainly did. There's a definite reason why they're Upset somebody's died, you feel wretched. And they talk about certain steps that come out of that, but some take a lot longer than others. But there's something else called melancholia, which lasts a lot longer. And what we're not observing in our world at the moment is the fact that people can go through this, whether it's a divorce or a breakup, so much longer than we know and used to be. I don't know if you know this, they used to wear black armbands when somebody died. And yeah, so the world knew. In my street, when somebody died, you knew because somebody was wearing a black armband or when I was working in a shop or a factory, which I did, you know, you'd know somebody was going through that stage of mourning. We don't have that anymore. Or women used to wear black for a year at least if their partner died. And now we don't have anything like that. Do you think it's the type of thing that should come back so people are aware that you're going through a terrible time, or is it just best to, you know, sort of not be quite so exposed on your feelings? I mean, that's a really good question. I think there's kind of two sides to it. I think that, I think it's a nice, well, nice word. Think it's, I think maybe it's, it's quite a good thing. Like you say, wearing the, wearing the black arm. Bad. I think maybe it's like a, it's quite respectful to the person who died. But also it's a signal, it's a non verbal signal to send to other people. Look, hey, I am grieving. Which may explain my reactions, my, you know, how I act towards you. You kind of know by looking at my black armband that I'm, I'm grieving the loss of someone. Yeah. But then at the same time, I think that people should just be kind to people no matter what. I think there's a whole thing with, I think there's a lot of lot going on about mental health at the moment. It's just in a world where you can be anything, be kind. I think just, you don't know what someone's going through and they don't have to tell you, but you should just be kind to them no matter what. There's no, there's no place for, for disrespect or hatred in, in this world. So, you know, just be as nice as you can. And what's your take, Harvey, on wearing an armband? I think what. I think it's difficult really, because I do get the whole point of it. And in today you still see it in sport and things like that, where certain sporting figures died and they wear the black armband. But in today, where social media and things like that is so big, you kind of, especially people, you know, soon as a relative dies, it's normally on the Facebooks and stuff like that. Straight away, you know, okay, they're gonna be feeling grief for the next however long. So I think it's more. People are more already aware through not having to actually see the armbands and. Or people dressed in black. I think it's more for those who don't know you. Yeah, yeah. So if you walk into a shop, you know, I've had a number of deaths in my family and friends, close friends. And when my sister in law died, we ran a shop together. And when she died, we always do wear leopard print. Don't go there, don't make a judgment. And whenever I saw leopard print, I'd get tears in my eyes. Yeah. You know, and suddenly you can. People would worry that it's more than it is, you know, so that there's that. I also. I'm going to ask you quite a provocative question before we end the program, but do you think there's too much being said about mental health in a way that is. Makes people feel that they can't cope? Harvey, what do you think? I think it's a very delicate subject because you don't know how someone else feels. You don't know what their brain's doing. You don't know. But I do think that with certain people, where it's such a big thing nowadays, someone might have a bad week and then straight away associated with depression or anxiety. I think maybe there needs to be more of an education on it so people can fully understand what the symptoms are, how to deal with it. So I think it just. It all comes down to education, really. And it's something that in school you're not really taught anything about it. Exactly. It's something I do. I have a site called Speak youk Mind. And I took this three psychotherapists out into clubs actually, and we did a panel. And my theme that I would speak about, first of all, people were talking, drinking, not talking during the time, but, you know, drinking normally and eating. And I talked about the hero's journey and any hero's journey. If you look at any mythology or any story on films that you love or any TV program, they always have A journey. And that journey is always tempestuous and it's a challenge. And what's a challenge and what is something that is distressing or disabling are very different. And I think we need to, as you say, the education. This is where you come in, Sophie, with the work you're doing, you know, to change people's perspective on that, to sort of say, is this temporary, is this a temporary event that you will get over and see it as a challenge? Or when I did my speak your mind, which is all about we start off not knowing where we're going, the fall in the tarot card and we're going off on the journey of the world and suddenly something happens to us which is terribly distressing or we have a car accident that changes the course of our lives or we lose our job or something happens that is a challenge and we can overcome that. But sometimes it's so distressing it can change you psychologically for a longer period of time. And some people go through complex ptsd. If people go to the war or something really violent or terrible happens to them in their personal lives that it totally changes their perspective. And I do think this is missing, as you say, Harvey, definitely missing. Because the depth of our mental well being or what we experience, how we can overcome things needs to be understood. And that's why the mythological stories are so valuable. Yeah. To us and we harness, we grab onto a two hour film. But a book can make us become self reflective. We put ourselves into a book and we learn how to deal with that. And I think that is it something that you always look towards when you're doing your work, Sophie, to bring these components in there? I mean, I guess so. I mean where I'm still, where I'm still relatively new to the company and to working life in general. I suppose, I mean I have done work before but I mean this is the kind of final step, right? Like you leave university and then you start your adult journey into the world of work. I think that's definitely something that I'm going to be trying to implement in my work going further. But yeah, I mean, I don't know really, I'm not too sure. Yeah, I think it depends how much, you know, freedom you're given. Yeah, I believe everybody at this moment has an opportunity to influence where they work at certain times because you're talking to people at random times and you might give an idea somewhere. But it sounds that with your background, Sophie, and your self awareness and with Harvey, you know, your self awareness and how you're working together. Not only, you know, sort of love is the fire, the thing that ignites the world. I think that without love, we would have a very sad place to live. But your love will enable you to go through, get through the difficult times, but also it inspires. It will create fun times for you. It will also create something that you want to sort of get hold of and something that will last. But I think that through that everything we do can. When you have that intention of what you said, that people should treat each other well, with respect, with kindness, and often the darker side of themselves comes through. But for the moment, I just. Before we go, I just want to one of you to just say something about what you would like to take forward. What is the best thing about love? I think it's. I think loving yourself is important, but having someone there to love and to love you is. And to share experiences with. Because you don't want to do it all by yourself. No, I love that. Well, you two have been absolutely amazing. So Sophie Borno and Harvey, Commissioner Bundy, thank you so, so much. Thank you so much. Love is so powerful and I really hope that when people listen, they will get something very valuable from this program and everything that you've said and allowing us into your minds. Thank you both so much. Thank you, Maria.