Your Mind Matters – Linda Pagnini, Dark Nights To Talent In Lights

I'm not yet born, oh hear me. Let not the man who is beast or who thinks he is God come near me. I am not yet born, oh fill me with strength against those who would freeze my humanity, would dragoon me into a lethal automaton, would make me a cog in a machine, a thing with one face, a thing, and against all those who would dissipate my entirety. Would blow me like thistledown hither and thither, or hither and thither like water held in the hand would spill me. Let them not make me a stone, and let them not spill me, otherwise kill me. Louis MacNeice wrote this poem called 'A Prayer Before Birth,' which echoes in many hearts and lives of the stories I hear and the people I know. We fall into the deepest well at times, and at times we cannot climb out. Louis MacNeice begs for the strength for every soul to overcome the crippling effect of the actions of others. The day-by-day trudging through the darkness which Thomas Moore, the psychologist and theologian, writes about in his book The Dark Night of the Soul. He says if we can use this time to reflect and delve into our soul's deepest needs, we can find a new understanding of life's meaning. And our individual meaning of life. We can climb out of the darkest well, the black night which torments us, and then most often we are transformed. It is not just a metaphysical understanding of life, it is an understanding that anyone who has been through the most horrendous time can testify to. We are not the same person who was most often the unwilling and unwittingly drawn into that void by the human who is beast, or who thinks they are God. Many Greek heroes had a struggle in their lives, as we understand in the legends. They were forced upon by the gods. The gods personified the deeds of greed, hatred, envy, jealousy, and above all, power. It was in their power that the hero had to overcome their fear and find the strength to rise above the crippling effect of the transgressor's power. And to become transformed. These struggles or challenges were given to many heroes which they had to overcome. Some struggles are from the inside which creates depression, melancholia, and inertia, or from the outside when a horrendous act is thrust upon us which we must reconcile. Through that horrendous act we are dragged into the abyss of life where the rescuing hands are too hard to reach, but we must and often do find a way to get out. The burden of loneliness and isolation pulls us down into the torment and the darkest night of the soul. This is where we battle, and the battle exists with the primordial quest of being, the primary instinct for life, as spoken by Hamlet as he too wrestled with the question 'to be or not to be.' Ćadvara knew those nights and created the Samaritans. I am Dr. Maria Kempinska, a psychotherapist. I learned to listen to the tormented souls as a Samaritan at the age of 19. The callers were consistent. From their loneliness, they longed for someone to listen and to understand. This, as Ćadvara recognized, gave them comfort and a witness to their torment. Today I'm joined by Linda Pagnini. She will talk about her terrifying experiences. She had been given a major recording contract when she was assaulted and left. Her devastation, and in her despair attempted suicide twice, and now after many years again she has found the joy in her talent. The theme of the program: Dark Nights to Talent in the Lights. This is Linda's heart-wrenching story But first of all, please welcome Linda, and thank you so much for being my guest today. My pleasure. That was quite poignant, that. Yeah, I was hoping that I could touch on the theme of what you've experienced. But before we go into the depth of your experience, which I know is so profound and it is heart-wrenching, tell us about your upbringing. Tell us about your— the beginning of your life. Oh God, oh, that wasn't very good either. I was born in the States, um, and my mum and dad settled over there. Mum's English, dad was an American Italian, but he had serious issues himself. Um, he would harm us as children to get attention, so I think that's like a Munchausen's thing by proxy. He was extremely violent, very, very violent to the point where my mum basically kidnapped us from him. My grandma helped us get us out of America and we came to England and lived with my nana for a while, and then we settled and we never went back. That was, that was Dad, basically. So for the first formative years of my life, I learned very quickly how to behave, when to speak, when not to speak, when to be seen. I could read atmospheres really well, like, you know, and I still do it today, like I can read vibes. Well, I don't know if it's vibes, but I can read, you know, like an atmosphere. Yeah. And know when to behave, when to leave, more importantly, when to leave, felt I was in danger. So yeah, it wasn't the best, it really wasn't. And Mum struggled very, very badly with depression. And so, you know, it was, it was tough. It really, really was tough. And who were you in the family? They often say when you're going through this, you have to hide your own feelings. Is that what you had to do? Yeah, I was definitely the good child, you know. I never caused any harm. I tried to be invisible for most of my life. I was a people pleaser, always helping and trying to get, you know, like reward, like with words, you know. I was never monetary, but a kind word would fill me up forever, you know. And so I'm always helping and helping and helping, but at the same time I was silent because of it. So I was preyed upon. Yeah. So before we get into that side of your life, because that is where we'll obviously focus a little bit more today, but you are naturally a helping person, and that help you give to a lot of people, don't you? That's who you are naturally. Yeah, yeah. So that was my job as well. I went into caring and nursing, and I was— I took the greatest reward from being with somebody who was passing away because I felt like I'd been blessed with something special in my own mind, probably to make up for all the other failings I felt I had. So lying with somebody while they were dying, I would give it 100 billion percent and you know, hold them and, you know, stroke the face and talk to them and make them feel safe and make out they were going on another journey that was wonderful and they were to let go. And when I'd done that and somebody did pass away with me, I felt like I— it's like a bit like even in the score, I felt like, yeah, you know, I am amazing at this one thing and it's all I am amazing at in the world because, you know, I had no self-worth and you know, I felt I was like dirty and used, and I wasn't clean and tidy and light and airy. I was very heavy and dark. So when I got the chance to do a job where I felt I was really contributing, I went in all in, all in. But you know what is so powerful about what you're saying? You— that natural instinct that you had, if we can just look at this for a moment, when you held somebody and helped them pass into— out of this life and it depends on spiritual beliefs, but there was a time— and I remember talking to somebody in the army about this, um, she was a soldier— is that there was a time that women did that. They helped somebody through from this life into the next, and it was women that did that with care, with, you know, sort of so that that time was given to the person who was dying so that there was that transition. Yeah, to sit with them, and it's such a powerful moment So it wasn't just for you, it's an instinctive thing, wasn't it? So although yes, it filled you up, but the power of what you did is profound. And I'm glad that you've mentioned that because people forget in this day and age how important that moment of transition is for the person that is leaving. But also, I think, not only for that person but for you, it is a spiritual connection. And it's almost like you have that instinctive spiritual understanding of what it takes to move from this world to the next. Yeah, I agree completely. Yeah, you know, and I think it's— it, it sort of can give people that comfort in those last hours of their life, the last minutes of their life, when, you know, people are reflective. And in this time when nobody goes to church, or people less and less, or fewer people go to church, and they may not have the priest that comes to absolve them of their sins, they, they are wretched at times because they can't reconcile certain parts of their lives. Yeah, yeah. So to have you there with them telling them that it's going to be okay, almost as I say, it is very spiritual. It gives them that comfort. As you said, you use the word safe, and that is such an important word. Yeah, for all our lives, that safety. We'll come to the other words, the other side of it, but that word of safety, what does that mean to you? Oh, well, that's probably why I say it, because I, I don't feel like I've ever had that. I've never felt safe. I've never felt I'm part of anything. Even today, it's the irony of talking to you today is today is, um, is not one of my best days. And it's not like, you know, I'm sad. It's just I feel empty today. I have, I have moments of like elation, and I have moments of like where I'm really settled and I'm strong. And then I have days where I'm like, I feel so empty and unattractive and tired. And I just, you know, I'm no peace of mind. And it's not anything in particular. I think it's just waves that come over me that send me sometimes where I feel like I have no purpose and why am I here and what have I ever done that's been any good, you know, just nothing but wrapped with self-doubt and, and just, and wanting to escape and wanting to be in a hole completely alone. And, and it's a really strange feeling because I'm such a positive, happy, go-lucky kind of person. That when these waves hit me, it's like I'm knocked off, and it can be for days, you know. And how do you get through that? Affirmations, which I live by. I found a book many years ago called The Secret, and it's my— it's like my— I read it constantly. And Bob Proctor's like my God, you know, he's like— I go to him for, for stuff like I believe in manifestations. I believe that if I believe, feel it. I also do a lot of research on people like me who've had trauma in the childhood that's gone into adulthood, and, and the fact that it's poor me, why me, why me, and that's not the way to be. So I have to twist it around and go, well, why not me? Who are you? You're just another human. And so I will have a— I don't even say this, but I've had 2 baths today. So a scrub, a scrub, like, and then I starve myself. Well, not starving, but what I do is like now, I won't eat now till tomorrow because I want to cleanse from the inside and cleanse from— I don't know if that makes any sense. Yeah, it does. Is it a cleansing? Do you feel that it is a cleansing or do you feel it's a punishment? Well, that's very— I can't believe you've just said that because part of my counseling last year is she said that I use it sometimes as a punishment, where now, um, I don't use it as a punishment. I think it's my way of, um, like emptying myself so I can be better tomorrow and feel like— and it's like psychological in my mind, I feel like I'm doing something positive. I do have silly rituals that I'm losing slowly over time, you know, which those were punishments, you know, like don't make it to that lamppost before that card or something bad's going to happen to me, you know, things like that. It's just ridiculous, but it's learned behaviour and I don't really, you know, sometimes my rituals make me feel safe because they're like habits that I'm aware of, but I would like to lose them. I don't want to race to the end of my life and go Oh, I'm dying. Thank God that's over. I'm trying to find a purpose again, which is the music, which we're going to come to. But just to go back to your childhood, when you have been bullied, when you have been tormented the way you were with your father, with your own father, yeah, who was violent, as you said, that will cling to you. It is like a, a skin that clings to you, doesn't it? Yeah. Oh yeah, I mean, you know, like I said, today was a— is not the best day. And the first thing I woke up, I said my affirmations and thank you to the universe. But now and again, he creeps into my mind, and I, I often think, does he wake up and go, oh my God, what did I do to, to them children? Or what did I do to her? What did I do? You know, I often wonder, like, is there any Does he ever think that way? Because I feel like the rest of my life unraveled because I felt like I was just kind of floating around the earth and I didn't really fit and belong anywhere. And I felt no safety and I felt no— I just— that's my personal experience. I felt that way, do you know? But that's a— so yeah, that's a sort of disassociation, isn't it? Yeah, from this world in order to get through it. And that is a very spiritual, I think, ability to get— and it's a safety, a protection, so that you can leave the state you're in, the world you're in, in order to keep yourself safe, to protect yourself. Because that isn't who you are. You could easily have turned out to be that tormentor. You could be a vicious, violent woman, but you're not. No. And I avoided things like alcohol and drugs because my mum drank and that was her way to self-medicate. She was on Valium as well as drinking, and I saw what it did to her. And also, so things that I saw as the bogeyman, like drinking, doing drugs, being out of control, I avoided at all costs. So, you know, I've never drank in my life, I've never took a drug in my life, and I, I was smart enough even at a very young age to know that they were bad things. And I was afraid possibly as I got older, maybe, you know, it followed in the family. So when I started having my own issues, I got into kind of like helping others or like I'd go cleaning for people, you know, people who were old who couldn't. I'd go, 'I'm gonna come round and clean your house today.' And they'd be like, 'Yeah, yeah.' And I'd spend the whole day, you know, right down from the light fittings to getting a toothbrush and doing the skirting boards with bleach. I mean, I just went insane, but it was all about doing good deeds. To balance out all the bad things. And I felt by doing lots of good deeds that when the time came for me to go, my place comes, I would go to a nice place. As in, I felt like this was the hell, and so if I died, I would go to a good place because I'd done nothing but good deeds. And what was your grandmother like? Oh, my grandma in America was lovely. I remember her very, very well. My grandma in England was very, very sweet as well. But they didn't live too long, so I wasn't— but you had an image of good people. Yeah, definitely, definitely. My grandma. Yeah. So there you were, you were— and for your pain that you were trying to get rid of, you were trying to cleanse— yeah— people's houses, they got something amazing from that. Yeah, yeah. And it became a regular thing. And in the six-week holiday, I would go to my auntie's and do her houses and do the laundry, do the ironing, do everything. It was just like I was like, um, it as it— like in the care world, it, you know, on the Christmas days when the, when the old ladies in the community, you know, I would do like 10 Christmas dinners and I'd take my kids because I was a single parent at this point, and we would all have a Christmas dinner with these old ladies. You know, we were all alone. I just felt my life was about doing good deeds, and it was, and it made me feel so, so good about myself. But even though they got some out of it, really it was me getting stuff out. But both of you got something. And then, you know, when, when I was— when you do the theory of this work, you know, Jung talks about the wounded healer, that it is from the wound that you can heal the world. Yeah. You know, only by getting through your stuff you heal yourself, but it heals and helps others. But at what age did you have to start cooking then, if your mother was in a state of depression, how grown up did you have to be and how early was that in your life? Probably about 9. Yeah, that's quite early, isn't it? I remember answering the door and learning to spell my second name because, like, you know, like, like the rent man in them days, or somebody came to do the electric and stuff. And I was— I just remember that really well, you know, getting to say my name because it was, it was foreign, so learning to spell it quickly, you know. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, so it's Pagnini, let's be clear, it's not Paganini like the, uh— No, it was. Oh, was it? So you're— Oh, good, because I was wondering about that. That's fabulous. Okay, so, um, my great-great-great-uncle, who is one of the sons of Achilles, who's one of the sons of Niccolò Paganini— Ah, yeah, I've got all the documents. They went to Ellis Island, him and his sister, and he came to Ellis Island in 1939, I think it was, and they changed the name to Paganini at Ellis Island when they signed in, and they became Paganinis, but they were from Genoa, and my— all the family's musicians, including my dad, so it goes right the way back. So Niccolò Paganini is my great-great-great-great-uncle. Well, that is such a wonderful, wonderful story. So let's move to your wonderful talent, fabulous talent. I've listened to your music, so let's just touch on that, because, uh, when did you know that you had a voice that people enjoyed as well? Okay, so probably when I got to about 32, 33. So that's not as young as A lot of people, they, you know, especially nowadays, there's so much help given to young people. Yeah. Which is fabulous, so they can develop their talent. Yeah, yeah. And I've known, you know, kids of 14, 15, 16. I know the industry doesn't really like to help kids too young because they often change their minds, and, you know, they don't want to put pressure on them to perform. But some people are quite young, you know, 14, 15, 16, and they get a lot of support, but there you are at 32. So how did you know? What happened? I used to write monologues for drama schools because I was always writing, and I'd written a piece about this girl, which was me, who finally meets up with her dad who's abused her all her life, and she— he's had a stroke and he's in a chair, so I wrote a piece of music and put the words to it. And the song was basically called Daddy's Song, and basically she berates him, and she's like, in the song she's getting dead passionate and saying, you know, what kind of person, what life could I have had, had you not done this to me? Look at me, look at, you know. And this guy who was there at the Green Room, it was in Manchester, he just went, my God, that was amazing, who are you? And it just kind of fell in from there. But what made you get up and do that? Where's that drive? So is it, you know, I believe in ancestral, you know, epigenetics, you know, the psychoepigenetics, that we're all psychologically linked to our ancestors, and you've got that ability to perform. Is that where it came from? Or you said your father had some— did he have a talent? All of— oh God, yeah, my dad was an amazing composer and pianist, um, and my grandfather before him was one of the very first people to to take a band on the road, and it wasn't on the road, it was on ships around. Yeah, so the music and everything was right in the family. But more than that, my mother was an amazing singer, and I used to watch her sing along to music as a kid and watch her break her heart and all that. And even though I didn't understand the words, I would cry because I would feel her emotion. And I don't know, it just happened. It— I don't know, because I'm shy And I don't have a lot of confidence, so getting up and doing something was like— I don't know, maybe it was the universe putting me in a situation where it would lead to what's happening now, really. Yeah, because let's just introduce everybody to you, you know, sort of the work you're doing. You've now beginning to work with George Fenton. You have a guitarist that you work very closely with. He's asked— he's a songwriter with me. We write together all the way. Yeah, and you now perform. So just give everyone an introduction to your performance. Okay, so what we do is we put a band— I put a band together 2 years ago and it didn't work out, but I found Roger Crombie, who is an amazing, amazing guitarist, and I just said to him, do you fancy writing together? And the first day we hung out, we wrote like 5 songs, um, and they were of a certain class I'd never written like that with anybody, and he said he'd never written like that. We did, we recorded one, the very first song, which is Dark Night, sent it to George Benson, and George just came on board and just said, I love what you're doing, I want to work with you. And he sort of discovered me in a way because he made me feel like I was worth something, you know. He's like 6-time Oscar nominee, the greatest composer of his century, and there he is talking about me, who's to me just some little tramp from up the road that nobody cares about. Yeah, and that's how you see yourself, but not when you hear your voice. Your voice is— and what did he say about it? He said it was the most magnificent raw voice he's ever heard. Yeah, he said it was the most honest voice he'd heard in 40 years. He just said he'd never heard anything that was so, um, emotional and from the— so, and it is. And what happened to your recording contract when you first got it? Oh right, so, oh, you mean, well, yeah, so in the first place, this is where you are now, so let's flip back. So I was in my 30s, I had 2 kids, and then I didn't really take— wasn't really interested that much in getting a deal, but I wanted to write for TV. Found this guy who was quite well known in the States now, who took me for meetings. And then I got offered a deal, the long shot was I got offered a deal with Universal. So they put me on a small tour with Rick Astley just to test me because I'd never played in front of anybody in my life. And did this, really held my own, got some really good reviews considering I was the main act. Played at Cleo Lane's place, Ronnie Scott's, which I want to go back to because it's like full circle for that. One night, not long after— I played Ronnie Scott's on the 28th of September, and then on the 4th of October, I'd been to see a friend and I was walking back to my car and got beaten and raped. Yeah, and lost my mind. Because you went to the police and what happened? Oh, well, I've since looked at my records through one of my nurses, and basically on the 4th of October I get taken to a hospital which was in Blackpool because the attack happened in Blackpool, and she read it back to me. And from Blackpool Hospital, somehow I end up in a taxi back to my own car where I have to go to Manchester to St. Mary's, where they wouldn't see me because I was out the catchment area. So then I had to drive to Wythenshawe Hospital where they took me back the next day. And I went back the next day and they did all their rape kit and so on, and the police came to see me to tell me that basically, you know, put it down to experience, forget about it, you've got 3 kids to concentrate on, you'll never get a conviction, there's not enough evidence of anything, so just go home and forget about it. So I did. I went home and I forgot about it till about a year and a half later when I completely started to unravel. I went to the hospital because I said, I don't feel right, I'm having all these intrusive thoughts. And the woman turned around and said to me, you need to pull yourself together because if you don't, you'll lose them kids. So I just was sent away again and I thought, well, I can't lose my kids. I'm not married, if they take the kids I've lost everything. So I just kind of put a lid on it, but I tried to commit suicide in 2006 by taking an overdose. And they were really horrible to me. And one of the nurses had said to me, 'How do you feel?' And I went, 'I feel ashamed.' And she went, 'No, how do you feel?' And I went, I didn't understand, and I was like, 'What do you mean?' And she went, 'How do you feel?' And I went, 'Well, alright, I suppose.' And she went, 'Right, well, you can go home if you want.' and they phoned my mum and told her, and my mum wouldn't speak to me because she was so disgusted with me. So I just kind of patched my life up to try and prove to everybody, yeah, I'm okay, everything's fine, and it was a mistake and I didn't mean to do it, and you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, because you were under the threat of your children being taken away. How old were they? Oh my God, so 2004, so Charlotte was born '94, so she was 10, and Jake was 8. So they were very young, and that's the type of thing that can happen, isn't it? Oh my God, yeah. And not just that, you've got to remember I came from a household where, you know, my mum had had depression, and clever in school, I'm dyslexic, so I went through school and never, never took an exam, never graduated, got expelled for being unruly. It wasn't unruly, it was just lost, you know. And all that stacked against me, and they just probably thought the kids be better off, so I was terrified of losing the kids, terrified, so I just shut my mouth until— and got on with it until which year? 2015. And then it all came back again. Oh my God. What prompted that? Well, Jake was moving to America because I'm American and he was going to the States because he wanted to try it out, so he was moving with my brother And the whole year running up to Jake leaving and getting his visa, I knew it was going to unravel, but I just didn't know how bad it was going to be. I had to take him to America, but I was so heartbroken. I mean, obviously I didn't let him know because this is his life and I can't impose on it. But every time he went out the house, I was destroyed. Every time he played the piano, I knew it was for the last time. Every time I picked him up from a venue, it was the last time. Every time he lay on my bed and cuddled me and watched TV, it was the last time. I knew I was going to go. Charlotte had met somebody, had moved out. So I made Charlotte come with me to America. We dropped Jake with my brother and sister, and then I went to Vegas for a few days with my daughter and my cousins. And I'd said to them, you know, don't leave me on my own when I get back, don't leave me on my own. But I didn't convey to them how bad it was, to be fair. And I came back to England like 5, 10 days later or something, and within, oh, I think it was about 4 days, I was on the phone to the police because I just, it was, I just said, I'm going to kill myself, can you please come and help me because I'm behind the door, I've got something around my neck, and I'm rocking, and I don't, I don't want to live but I don't want to die. And In that 4 days, was it because you were left all alone? I think I was left alone. I went back to my house. There was no kids in the house. The empty nest syndrome. And all I'd looked— and all that had kept me centered was gone, which was the kids. The whole of my world was in pieces. And I felt like— it felt like I was on a massive mountain, like a ballerina on me tiptoes, with nothing beneath me. To grab, nothing at the side and nothing above. And I never forgot that feeling. It was like I knew I was going, but I couldn't— there was just nothing, nothing to hold on to. And I just— the pain of the silence of that house and the emptiness was— I just wanted to die so badly. I had no— I just didn't want to live anymore. I just— the rape had come back to get me, all the injustice. I was so hateful that how could— you know, I was so angry that how could I have had that happen as a kid, get through it, and then this happened? And it's like nobody's taking account for anything of me. Why should I be beaten, abused, and raped? Why? And where in the world does it say that? I'm a good person, I'm a nice human. Why? And I just— and you know what, I just thought the kids don't need me anymore, they're grown up. I don't want to live this life anymore. And it was, it was a big, like, it wasn't a lot of it, yeah, a lot of it was in anger, but it was like I was done. I was empty and I had no intention of wanting to live the rest of my life like that. It was just gone. And how were the police when they turned up? They were, you know what, they were really good. They brought two women from the Crisis Team and one of them stayed with me all night. I wouldn't go to the hospital because I was scared they'd lock me up, and I'm claustrophobic, and I was frightened. You know, I had seen it on TV, like they lock you in a room and, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, so I wouldn't budge off the sofa. But I did voluntarily go the next day, and I was sort of made where they look after you, but I could come home. Do you know what I mean? Oh, that's good. Yeah, yeah. And I had like a special number so that if I whatever felt, well, I could just walk into A&E and give them this number and they would make sure I wouldn't harm myself. They put me on drugs straight away to take the edge off. And my work at the time were great. They let me officially stay in work, but like, they gave me all my holidays in one go and all this stuff so that I could officially attend. I went to 10 hours a week, but but I wasn't working, if you know what I mean. Yes. And I just, I don't know, I don't even know where that came from. I don't know how I fell so far. Yeah, because it, because it wasn't dealt with. And more than anything, there's a lot that happened in that very first attack, in the rape. You're exposed, you're in a shopping center, so you're shopping like most women do. You've got 3 young children. You're attacked. Yeah. Um, you go to the police and nobody does anything. Nobody recognizes it. You know what? Do you know what? I'll be honest to God. I know this is a terrible thing to say, but I'm going to say it. One of the police officers— and may the universe strike me from this ground I'm sat on now if this isn't the truth— one of the police officers said to me, look, you're a very attractive woman. 'What you expect.' Yeah. And you know what, at that time I actually took it as a compliment. That's how little I thought of myself. I actually took that as a compliment. You know what, because, you know, like years later now that I've been through counseling, I look back, but it was like, how broken was I that that was a compliment to me? Yeah, because it's difficult to make sense of what's going on here. You know, and you stand as a symbol for a lot of women that are out there, and we've heard this year of the things that have happened to women and young women, and you know, that's just not a good enough excuse, is it? No. You know, and you've gone through it and come through it, but if you were to go back— I don't want you to go back, but you know, to that moment— in that 10 years, thank God things have changed a little bit, Only a bit though, because I know when things like that come on TV, you know, obviously my subconscious pricks up and I listen, you know. I'm still hearing things now, you know, where women aren't being believed. I mean, that is the biggest fear I had, is that I would not be believed by my family. I felt it was such an outlandish thing to happen that how could it possibly happen to me? How could it possibly happen to you know what I mean? It's like this on telly, it happens in movies, it happens to people you don't know, you know. But one of my best, best friends in the world, her daughter only 3 years ago was, was attacked and raped at a party at the age of 14. And because she was 14 and the kid was 17, you know, it was like kind of brushed under the carpet. But she's in you know, and she had to leave school. And now my best mate— and I was a help to this child. I can't say her name clearly, but I'm still a help to her. I still talk to her when she needs to talk to me because I've been there. And I say to you, you have to get counseling. You've got to get this out because it's like a festering wound. It just grows. Now and again you can knock the head off it, but it never goes away. And you've got to deal with it And who, in your opinion— and I'll come back to the young lady because this is such an important issue of our time, and it's tragic it's still happening— who would have made a difference had they listened? Professionals. Right. What did you mean, like the police? And yeah, had they done something to protect you? Yeah. So if you feel that you're not being protected at home and there you are in society and you're not being protected in society. Where do you turn? Well, let me say this as a person of my age, in my early 50s. When I grew up, the police were people you looked up to. They were people of power, they were people of authority, and it was a safe place. Okay, so when you didn't have a mum that could function very well and you didn't have a dad, you know, the police was like, if I saw a policeman, I'd be like panicking. If I'm driving, there's a copper, ooh, you know, because we brought up with that thing that the police are the police. You speak to anybody today about the police and there is no respect for the police whatsoever. They've lost the hierarchy, okay, which I think that's a really sad thing myself because I think that there should be a hierarchy where you do feel that you can go to the police for protection. That's what they're there for, you know. And when you get a police officer saying, you know, "You're really good-looking, what do you expect?" or "Why don't you just go home, put it down to experience, concentrate on your kids, you know, just forget," like you're worth nothing, like you're a piece of meat, like it's okay. But it's not okay, is it? It's not okay. And what resentment breeds— anger. Anger breeds many other things. Then you turn on yourself. And for me it was like, I, you know what, sod it, this world. I'm too nice for this world. I'm leaving. Yeah, totally. And when you talk to the young lady, do you— she obviously knows what you've been through. Yeah, of course. Yeah, and her mum told her, and she's 16, and you know, she still has issues. I mean, I have really, really, really bad post-traumatic stress. I don't like to be out in the dark still, and I don't like loud noises. If something bangs, I go into fight mode, and it can be days I'm stuck. So I'm jumpy, and I'm like, you know, I'm always like talking too fast, or I'm, you know, and when I'm on a good day, I'm a lot calmer. But like, you know, even now I know today is not a great day because I'm talking fast, and I'm you know, I'm like getting everything out, it's like, 'Get it out, get it out,' you know. And she's the same, I know when she's— and I say to her, 'Don't make any decisions in crisis.' I've made so many bad decisions when in crisis, you know, but I didn't have anybody I felt I could talk to. So she can call me whenever. And I never talked to her mum, who's my very best friend, I never talked to her mum about what her and I talk about. This is between us, because sometimes the strangest things that I've thought, I'm hearing back from her. Of course. And you keep that confidence. So you've become her, you know, a counselor for her. Yeah. And in that counseling, you've got to have that confidentiality. Yeah, I wouldn't— because as you say, in that moment you can say all sorts of things. Wasn't it so outlandish? You know, some of the things or, you know, at one point I thought, well, if I kill myself, I'm going to come back as a brand new baby, but with all this knowledge I have now, and I'm going to make a success of my life. It's like I convinced myself that I could die and come back with a whole new person but still have the same personality. Like, you know, really bizarre stuff. Like I was somebody else, like I'm two people. Yeah. And that's what it does. That's what the mind does. It has to protect us. Yeah, that deep person within, you know, that baby, that child that has been, you know, from your father right up to this moment as well, that has been so badly beaten, tormented, violent. It's terrible. Do you remember the person's face? I don't remember anything. Oh, thank God for that. I don't remember anything. I thought up until a few weeks ago when I went back and asked my nurse, I just said, 'Read me back the 4th of October, just read it back to me.' And there was so much I didn't remember. I do not remember leaving the hospital in Blackpool and I don't know how I got to my car, but they felt fit to leave me to go into my car and drive myself to Manchester. So I was going to say, so that in a way is also very empty and, you know, not It's almost as if they don't understand that you must have somebody with you to make sure you get home okay, because anything could have happened on that journey. I don't even remember the journey. Yeah, of course you wouldn't. And there's so much you don't remember. Yeah, in that, in that moment of trauma, it's deep trauma that's going on there, and your mind has to split. One to protect you, your body as well. Your body is on hypervigilance. Yeah, you've been attacked. I've always, from that moment, the day before that happened, the day before, you know, I'm a different human. I'm quite girly. I remember doing all the shows with Rick Astley and I've got dresses on. I've got a picture of me and Rick at Ronnie Scott's and I've got a black dress on. After that, I've turned into a man. So, you know, I wear only boots and jeans and bomber jackets. I have totally, totally changed the whole of my persona. I became very masculine, and I say that with all honesty, you know. I'm not saying it like— it was— it wasn't even conscious, it just happened. I became masculine. I walk different, I talk different, I hold myself different. And if I go out— I had to go to London last week with Roger for a really big meeting involving a really big TV network who shall remain nameless, and we got it, okay, we got it. I went to London in a jacket that I could put my phone in, with my card in and my keys in. That's all I went with, our train tickets. There was no handbag, there was no dressing up for the occasion, there was no nice coat and hairdo. I went so that if I needed to get in a fight, I was ready for a fight. If I needed to run, I was ready to run, and that's still with me all the time later. Yeah, and that's not surprising because unless you're given the opportunity— and this is what soldiers go through in war, you know, you are on that level where you are aware anything can happen to you at any time, even though you're with somebody like Roger that you know cares. Yeah, he's not your partner, but, you know, he's not your partner, is he, Roger? No, he's like my long-lost brother. He's not close. We're like brother and sister. Yes. So he's— so you know that he cares and you know that he'll look after you. Yeah. So you, you know, it's not that you've come out of this hating men. No, you just know how dangerous and evil people can be. I just think that there is nothing in the world that would surprise me anymore. Yeah. Unfortunately, that— and I've lost faith in humanity. And I know that's really dramatic, but because actually, from all the people that you turn to, and as you say, was there anybody in your family that understood? No, because I was quiet as well. I didn't tell people, you know, I had it. I felt like, um, I was let down. That's how I felt, you know. I would like— I had to go and babysit for this family over the road who remain nameless, you know, but the husband was interfering with me, you know. But I felt, oh well, isn't that what just happens to people like me, you know? It's like— and I couldn't tell anybody because I was always afraid they won't believe me, because nobody— I felt there was no respect for me, so why would they ever believe a word I have to say? And this is after you had your children, and this was after the rape? This was before. This was me as a child. I was babysitting. So you were babysitting as a teenager and somebody was Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, and could you— and you couldn't say anything? No, I— no, no, definitely not. And I felt like it was like, that's why I was so angry after what happened, because it was like, how can all that have happened? And then, then— and I'm talking to the universe at this point— why, why would you do this to me after being through all that? Okay, so let me ask you that question. Why Here we are, you know, you've met with the TV company, I've heard you sing, you have, let's, you know, your voice is quite amazing. I put it down as you've got that sort of the epic sound, we talked about this, which I love, you've got the epic sound of Cher, Celine Dion, but also with a Bonnie Raitt sort of, you've got that grit to your voice which is almost like the— from the depths of the earth comes out this amazing sound. And it's— well, it— well, it's anger. It's me. It is, it is anger, but it's not an angry sound. So no, it's not. Do you know what I mean? It is anger for you, but it's not when you listen to your voice. And I, you know, really encourage anybody who's listening, and I'm sure you will get lots of people listening to you, Linda, that you have this fantastic ability to draw people into your emotions, you know, in your singing. And you write the lyrics as well, don't you? Yeah, I think what it is, is I've always said nobody listens to a— I feel nobody listens to a word I say, or has never listened to a word I say, but when I sing, they listen. So every word I write is a diary entry or how I'm feeling. I've never written anything that is just fluff. It's all from the heart and from the pit of my stomach. So I think when I sing, I'm singing the true emotion because I want you to hear me. I don't want to be a big star. I just want people to connect with me and go, like Dark Night, the song, you know. The song is so epic that the people we went to see said it's too big for a TV program. 'But we're going to keep it for a movie.' Yeah, there you are. That's what I said to you. So it is so important. He didn't know what it was about, the second chap I'm talking about didn't actually know what it was about. Do you know why it's even more important that people don't know? Because you've got the feeling and the intensity of such a terrible, horrifying incident, but also so many people— you draw people in because people feel wretched at times. They do, yeah. You know, without having something like that, that's— I think it's almost hereditary, or that life has just got to them, but they resonate with this. And the words are so profound. Give us a couple of the lines of the, um, The Dark Night. Yeah, yeah, it's— it just starts with, I hear every word you say, and I used to take them like a bullet to the brain, you know, the pain. Because I would— I— you could, you could beat me, it won't matter, but you've all got to say a bad word and I'll carry it for years, you know. So, and then, and then part of the song is, I feel all your hatred and I've grown and I've learned the hard way. And then I'm saying like, and who do you think you are to pull me down? And who are you to cause me pain? And so it's the actual choruses will stop, stand still, and watch me rise again. Yeah, and that is it, because yeah, there are so a certain number of songs that actually make you feel, I can do this, I can get through it. And has your young lady— I'm sure she's heard your song, has she? The young lady you're helping? Yeah, she's a massive fan, she loves all of them. I'm sure, because you know, songs actually reach in, don't they, on a very visceral nature. They go through your body, they resonate with the whole part, every part of you. That's why musicals are so profound. Yeah, and but we put this as a trailer on YouTube, so it's got a 5-minute trailer and it basically just says a bit of our story. So it mentions me, it mentions the attack, and then it mentions George Fenton and meeting Rodney, and it looks, you know, like it sounds big, but the whole thing was It didn't start out like that. It started out like more of a secret of a song, and Roger and I were writing it, and as we were writing, he went, 'This is amazing, you've got to.' And I went, 'Oh, don't you think it's a bit close to the bone?' And he went, 'Get out.' And that was the one that George Fenton's done all the strings on, and it sounds— and it's not even finished. What we put on YouTube is just a trailer, but the song's still being finished, and all the songs, you know, um, Destiny, when that comes out, well, it's just— it's a woman walking around the house looking in every room for her life again. I'm looking for the kids, the life I knew, and it's just like, God, what is happening to my world? Why? I'm a good person. Why is this going? And I know that women feel the same. We're all great humans, you know. None of us deserve to be. So why do you think— why do you think this has happened to you? Do you try to make sense of it? And yeah, yeah, sense of it. It's sometimes I make sense of it. And you know what I believe? And this is me being the healer. Yeah, yeah. So I believe that I was not targeted that night, that afternoon. I believe it was a random attack. I believe that he got me instead of somebody who was coming next, because that somebody who was coming next could not have coped with it. And that's my way of reckoning it. I believe that I went through this journey because I was always going to survive it. Because of what happened in my childhood, it was more a case of, well, why wouldn't it happen to me? So do you think it's been a preparation, your childhood? You went through all that violence with a very angry father, very abusive. Yeah. And here you are, the culmination that reap. And the, you know, people ignoring you, the hospital, the police, everyone who should protect you, a family, nobody took any notice. And there you are, you're pouring your attention into your children, you've got to make sure they're okay because you don't want them taken away from you, because that's so easily that can happen. Suddenly everybody goes, and again 'Where's my life gone?' And it's empty. And you try to take your life, which pushed you into counseling. Absolutely pushed me into it, yeah. Well, I didn't have a choice at that point. I had to, I had to take part in counseling. You had to, yeah. And how was it worth it? Oh, oh my God, give me 30 seconds, please. I am living today I am alive and breathing today because of counselling, because I got to speak and because I was listened to. And I could say the darkest, deepest, most disgusting things that had happened to me, and I could give them a voice and give it air. And the— some of the worst things that happened to me, like, I would never ever ever tell anybody in the history of the world, and I told my counsellor. Because I was in a safe place, and because I said it and it came out, it was like cutting something out of me, and it went. And without the counselling, there is no question, without doubt, none whatsoever, I would be dead today. No question, without doubt. I will stand that to the day I die. I would not be alive today without that counseling, no doubt about it. So here you are, you've come through that and you've had counseling, and I'm sure there'll be times you'll go back because it's so profound. And as a psychotherapist, you know, I've been training for years, and also I'm in the entertainment industry, as you know, and I love to balance the two. So we're very connected, and we found a connection straight away when we spoke, you know, that the, the two worlds— it's almost like this is the depths of your anguish. This is what you've experienced, but you are transforming that. And the whole— in The Dark Night, when Thomas Moore talks about care of the soul, the dark night of the soul, what you've done is you've taken your experiences and you're transforming it into something that other people can listen to, and also transforming it into something so powerful, creative, and positive that people are now identifying it and saying 'Oh, look at this, we've got to use it for a film.' How does that make you feel now? Do you know what's the most important thing? That's all great, okay, that's great, obviously, you know, and obviously we really want a record deal next, you know, we've got a deal now, we've got TV coming, but I want a record deal. And it isn't, like I said, to be a big star or anything like that, but I, with all my heart, I want to stand on a stage I don't care what stage it is, I don't care, but I want one night and I want to stand there for one night. And because I want women like me who are in the 50s to turn around and go, you know what, I wanted to be a scientist, I'm going to study, or I wanted to write a book and I'm going to do that, or I wanted to be an actress, but you know, I'm in my 50s, it's not too late because look at that Linda Pagnini, she is doing it. Inspite of everything, because everybody— there was so many people that said to me when I started back in music only 18 months ago, oh, you know, nobody's going to be interested, you're too old, you're this. And I went, you know what, if you can't talk about any sort of racial situation, or you can't talk about this, you can't talk about— why are we talking about age? Age doesn't define— let me get on that stage and let me inspire another woman who's been through or even is going through right now what I've been through to turn around and go, you know what, that girl has proved that anything's possible. And that's why it's so important to me, because I want to be heard more than any— I don't care, don't make one penny out of it. I don't care if I don't make one cent. What I want is to be listened to, and I want to be an inspiration for somebody else who feels that the world's over. Because you know what, when women get to a certain age, we're thrown on the scrap heap. She's had her kids. Oh, her boobs have dropped, or her belly's this, she doesn't look like JLo, she's not this, she's not that. No, because I'm me. I am me. I've had 3 kids. What do you think I'm gonna look like? Do you know what I mean? But when I sing, I'm singing my truth, and I'm singing from the heart, and I'm singing pure love. And let's go forward, girls. Let's do something, and let's show them what not on the scrap heap. And you will, you know, Linda, I know you have a partner. What's your partner's name? David. And he's helping you through this. Yeah. And we talked about you doing the Royal Albert Hall, which I absolutely believe you will. And so there you are, you're on the stage on the first night. What are you gonna wear? Well, let me tell you, I thought only last week, or maybe just the week before I bought, very few days ago, I bought for the first time a dress and heels. I've not wore it yet, but I have bought a dress and heels, and, and I have lightened my hair slightly because I used to make jet black so I could just blend in, and now it's kind of a brownie kind of chocolate. I am going to go to a hairdresser's, and I'm going to wear a dress at the Albert Hall, and George Fenton said the night we play the Albert Hall, because he thinks we're going to do it as well, he will conduct the orchestra. So how amazing is that? Well, your voice can take it because, you know, I've worked with people like Misha Paris, and so I know wonderful epic voices, and you've definitely got that. You know, uh, is there a time that you'd like your father to hear you? No. Do you want any relationship with him? None. Zero. So you understand people like Adele when they just go, that's it, you're out of my life. Yeah, he's toxic. I want nothing to do with him at all. No, nothing. And now you're on the climb, you're looking for, uh, a record deal. Yeah. And I believe you will get one, you know, because they help. They— a label helps you get along, it helps you get noticed. But you have got George Fenton helping you. Yeah. And, you know, you're sort of moving on every day, but you will travel. You travel. But Linda, just touching back on where you started from, you haven't really had a big education with all this going on, have you? So we're not talking about somebody who's been— yes, your parents went through all that and you've been helped. You weren't, you know, you didn't have money. You were living, I presume, a lot hand to mouth. Absolutely. Well, yeah, you know what, we had a great man. I would, you know, if I could find this man again— I know he's died and it's too late— but there was a great guy who knew what was going on sometimes. We lived in a flat in Wythenshawe, and what he would do is he would put meals, nice meals, and wrap them in newspaper and bang on the chute. There was a chute from the top floor to the bottom floor, and he would bang on the because he spoke to me, used to give us apples, and now and again he would put a meal and I'd get in, climb in the bin and take the meal out, and me and my brother would eat the meal. That man showed me that there was compassion in the world, and I think that I would love to be able to say to that guy, yeah, I didn't learn to read and write. It's amazing I can write songs because I do it all in the moment because I can't read and write. I'm very at all. I don't do numbers. I'm not— but I'm, I'm street smart. I'm not academically smart, but I'm a grafter. I work hard, and when I stay focused, I stay focused. So I would like to have— out of everything, I would like my own sort of charity or fund, you know, for suicide prevention. I'd like to do something for them, and I would like to do something for children who are with parents who, who can't manage if my mum was alive in this day and age at this age, that people would have helped her. Yeah, but depression in them days wasn't even spoken about. It was like a big secret, you know. I've never had depression, so I can't even connect with that. I have anxiety and post-traumatic stress, but I've never had depression, and I've always been the glass is half full, not half empty. And do you know what, Linda? I know that it was a bad day for you, and I'm so grateful that you did this this, you know, a talk with me and telling everybody about your world. And I know that you're going to be successful, and age is irrelevant. You're a very, very stunning looking woman. And I know when you get on that stage, there will be so many people rooting for you and with you and knowing the journey that you've been on by you telling your story today. And thank you so much for being part of this conversation, and, uh, we'll all watch your future success. So Linda Pagnini, everybody go on to YouTube, find her, listen to her voice, and then we'll all connect. So just to say thank you so much. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska. This is Your Mind Matters. And Linda Pagnini, thank you so much for joining in the conversation today. My pleasure.