Your Mind Matters – Penny Lane, From Cancer To Musical Creativity

Music has always been a component of healing. It has been composed over the centuries with a harp or lyre for a court— for courting a loved one, or the beat of drums to announce an attack, or a piano recital to entertain guests. Royalty were patrons of the arts, and those that were able created music that inspired and was admired. In Maslow's hierarchy of needs, music, along with the arts, was the pinnacle of achievement and inspiration. Without a doubt, music is one element of our lives that we can enjoy every day. In fact, many factories have music playing all day, and scientists have even determined which sort of music calms the aggressor. It is deep within our DNA that every culture makes music of some sort. What inspires can be tragedy, loss, love, joy, serenity, terror, war, or rage. Music at its pinnacle, as Franz Kafka wrote, must be the axe for the frozen sea inside us. This is what music can do. It reaches in and moves us beyond our consciousness and touches us spiritually. It could be said that we are in a less fraught time when we can give more energy to creativity which is available to everyone. Universities and schools have music on the curriculum as a social enterprise, and music has always been recognized as a medicine. It decreases the stress hormone cortisol, and research has found that listening to and playing music increases the body's production of the antibody immunoglobulin A and natural killer cells, the cells that attack invading viruses, and boosts the the immune system's effectiveness. The British Academy of Sound Therapy found in their studies, when listening to music, that 79% had reduced muscle tension, 84% had less negative thoughts, 82% had better night's sleep and felt restful and contented, 87% felt more emotionally stable, 84% felt less overwhelmed, 91% felt relief and release, and 84% came out the other side of their sadness. It is clearly an important part of life. In fact, judging by the amount of money that is spent on music, I'm definitely not alone in having music underscore my life. I'm Dr. Mary Kempinska, and this is Your Mind Matters. Today we're speaking about music as a healing component of mental health. But what is the mental health theory of music? Interestingly, music often is created with a small number of people. Musicals are a growing genre. Les Misérables was a surprise to the critics when it became a worldwide phenomenon, and along with Andrew Lloyd Webber, whose shows travel the globe to enthrall the audience. What makes the power of the song is still beyond scientific proof. From classical music of Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven to what we call a classic, 'I Had a Dream.' Music has a great impact for an incredible number of people, and at times millions across the globe. It unifies us and quells the anxious mind, and that one song embedded within the storyline of a musical can haunt and encapsulate our feelings when no other art form can. As a doctor of psychoanalysis, I was shocked to discover that Freud did not like music. He found it emotional and in the philosophical terminology quite feminine. The feminine is related to the creative and feelings. My personal preference to the theoretical overarching perspective is towards Jung as his work included the spiritual. He spent time discussing quantum physics and synchronicity with Pauli and dreams and along with the hidden and unexpected. But Freud, I was surprised to discover, disliked music with a passion. It is even speculated that he had music phobia. 'I'm no connoisseur in art but simply a layman,' he said. 'Nevertheless, works of art do exercise a powerful effect on me, especially those of literature and sculpture, less often of painting. I spend a long time before them trying to apprehend them in my own way, that is, to explain to myself their effect is due.' what their effect is due to. Wherever I can do this, as for instance with music, I'm almost incapable of obtaining any pleasure. Some rationalistic or perhaps analytic turn of mind in me rebels against being moved by a thing without knowing why I'm thus affected and what it is that affects me. So why do we humans love music so much? Why did Freud despise it? Did Freud despise music because it was the axe which cut through the frozen waters of the unconscious? Was it because he could not control the unconscious revelations which were chaotic, involuntary, passionate, heartfelt, soul connection, and perhaps for him overwhelming? So much so that his work is renowned for being logical, deductive reasoning, intellectual and scientific. Music is not a substitute for psychotherapy, but it certainly can open the unconscious doors for both the creator and the listener. It is a complement for psychotherapy, and in my practice I often ask my clients which music they're listening to, as it can reveal a deeper inner concert which allows— along with dreamwork— can give a clue to our inner hidden world. My guest today is a wonderful and renowned singer, Penny Lane, and now a composer who whose own unexpected turn of events has led to her joining the annals of musical history. No one knows how the wheels of our lives will turn and what events will lead us to create a great work of art. I'll leave Penny to tell her incredible story today. Please, can I welcome you, Penny? But before we speak about your own unexpected creative work, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how did you enter the world of music? Oh wow, um, hi Mariette. Hi Penny. I was probably born singing, I don't know, it seemed it's just been a part of my life. I grew up singing with my mother, my two sisters weren't particularly that musical, but I can remember music being just the whole part of my life is growing up with 3 or 4. I was performing on, on parties, on stage, the typical dance school as we do. So yes, I, I can't remember not ever doing anything connected with music. So do you think a lot of children are naturally gifted in that way or just love music? Have you seen that in your life? Because you're a teacher. I love music, but it just shows you, my two sisters who are in the same household weren't— didn't feel the same way as I did. So it wasn't a part of their, you know, they used to say, 'Oh, turn that noise off,' and my father was as well. So it's not— but I think if you love something, um, it's just, it's just a way, it's just something, uh, that you just do instinctively. And I think it's really important for, for children, especially as I'm teaching singing now, is to do something or find something that they really like, not what their parents like, but what they like, you know, whether, you know, because it is, you know, so many of them, as I see when I'm teaching now, they do so much, probably too much. And, you know, oh, I've got to go to football, I've got to go to, you know, we're doing basketball, I'm going to play cricket, I've got piano, and I've got this, and I've got, you know, and which is great for them to try everything out, but But sometimes they are pleasing their parents to do things, I think. And do you think, as you say, do you think parents give them too much to try and that they should— but how do you know unless you've got a child like you? I can actually tell, in all honesty, when I'm— the kids or even the grown-ups that I'm teaching, how committed they are. I think a lot of, especially ones who want to go to music theatre school, they have it in their heads, they like the whole idea of it, you know, I want to be in a musical, I want to be a pop star, they love the whole idea but they don't realise the amazing commitment and the work that you have to do to be able to do the, you know, to be able to be committed. So it is a big commitment. Otherwise, just do it for fun. I say to people, just have fun with it, you know, and see where it goes. And who encouraged you at home? My mother, definitely. It was my mother, definitely. She used to write plays and she was very musical. So yes, and we went to Barbara Speaks Stage School— no, Barbara Speaks Dancing School. It wasn't even a stage school there. And we went to Corona, which was a stage school. So, um, I was brought up, you know, again, my sisters were, were dancers. In fact, Carry On Teaching was on the other day. It was made in 1959, and I was in the crowd scene, and my sister had quite a big part in it. Ah, so yes, yeah. So she was more of a dancer, your sister? A dancer, an actress, but she never wanted to do it. She never, you know, she, she, she didn't. When, when we left stage school because my mother felt we needed more of an education, I was still carrying on and she, she, you know, she just didn't want to do it anymore. She said, I want to be a hairdresser, and that was it. But still creative. So, and what field was your mother in? Where did she work? A district nurse. So yeah, she was a district nurse, but quite outgoing, quite, quite a big personality. And she was a late mother, she didn't have me until she was 45. So I think she, she'd had a— she'd got a wealth of experience before I came along. My sisters are young— older than me. Ah, fabulous. And your mother again in the caring profession. And what did your father do? My father was a civil servant, only liked football and tennis as such, and he had these three daughters, so it was quite daunting for him and had no interest in, in the music, no. So you went to school, did you stay there? So was it all your education through the dance school and the School of Entertainment? No, no, I went to Corona only for like stage school for about 4 years, so I came out of there and went to normal comprehensive school in East Acton, which is— you can imagine coming out of a drama school, I was— I stuck out like a sore thumb when I went back to normal school at 13 because they thought I was terribly posh. And so I was— I would say in terms of today, probably bullied, but I can I remember my mum's attitude was, come on, get on with it, you know. Do you think that was a good attitude? I think in a way it was, you know. Um, I, I did have a hard time at the beginning, um, I can remember that. But I think it was sort of not— I— it wasn't made such a big thing of. I wasn't as if, you know, I knew that people thought I was different, and, um, but the music teacher liked me. So I managed to, you know, I managed to get by. I managed to get by. And do you think too much— you say too much is made of the bullying aspect? Was it an all-girls school? Was it mixed? Oh no, it's mixed school, very rough and tumble compared to what I'd been used to. I mean, I arrived with the full uniform, school uniform my mother had bought me, and my real name is Rosemary, and I can remember when the teacher came in, I'd been used to standing up and she said, what's your name? And I stood up and I said, my name is Rosemary Maud Maynard. So that was enough to put the whole school into hysterics, you know. And then you had to— were your sisters at school with you, or were you there on your own? Um, they were just leaving. Yeah, they were in the— they were. So I had a couple of years there. But you know what, I'm glad I did. I'm glad I didn't come straight out of like a stage school and not have the experience of a normal, normal school because I think that made me toughen up really. I had to toughen up, you know, it was like I had to sort of realise that, you know, I needed just to get on with everybody, end of story. Yeah, and did that lead you to understanding your audience? Because what age did you actually start performing? Because you were quite young when you were went back into the world of performance. And this is what I mean, being paid for. Yeah, I know, it was quite amazing because, as I said, I'd been singing with a group at the school, um, with a guitarist. And I'd always been singing, you know, my mum had been teaching me songs. But I worked in a record shop on a Saturday, and in the Melody Maker there was an advert: experienced girl singer needed for BBC band to start immediately, um, broadcasts. So I told white lie, I went along for the audition with no fear whatsoever, and I was actually 15, and I sang my 3 songs, which was "Little Things Mean a Lot," "They Try to Tell Us We're Too Young," and I think "Walking Back to Happiness" or something like that, and just sort of borrowed my sister's high-heeled shoes and sort of toddled out, and he said, "Oh, can you come back?" And basically I was offered the job. I had perfect pitch apparently. Fantastic, that's theatre work as well, isn't it? Because in the theatre when you go in for auditions you have to be pitch perfect, whereas in the world of music and entertainment in a slightly different way, particularly nowadays, the more quirky and the more off music, off tone you are, and off rhythm, the better it is, it seems to me now, because otherwise how did they differentiate between somebody and somebody else? But back in the day, to get into the theatre, you had to be pitch perfect, didn't you? It was radio work, I was doing live radio work, so— Oh, so equally? Yeah, it wasn't recorded, so that was, that was very important to be, to be perfect, you know, pitch perfect, which I did automatically, you know. I think when you're young and I hear these people who are being so successful or I think you just take it for granted. You don't really make a big thing about it because it's just the norm, you know. So I got the job singing with Tony Evans' band, doing broadcast twice a week on the Dave Cash Show and the Tony Blackburn Show, and it was live radio, and it was more or less covers of the songs in the Hit Parade. And yes, so they— you were doing all the covers actually, Talking about that, that you used to be able to buy covers, didn't you? Well, I did all the covers. Did you? Did you? So, you know, that was the ones that you can get, you used to get cheaper. Yeah, that's right, the, the Mary and Faithful and the Lulu. And I did, yeah, I did all of those. Oh, I was quite a good mimic. So did you then give up school? Was that it? Was that your world? Left 15, that was it. I, you know, I— except my mum, I can remember, oh my goodness, when I told her, she, you know, they wanted me to start a week later type of thing, and obviously I had to sort of then come out and tell my truth, how old I was and everything. But she came to Tony Evans, we had a meeting with him, and my mother in her nurse's uniform, you know, on her bike, came in and said, now listen, young men, She is underage. If I find any of you, you know, and they looked after me, this band. I mean, we worked at the Douglas House, which is an American base. I was 16. I couldn't work there when I was 15. I had to wait until I was 16, and I was working with 10 musicians, but they were like my big brothers. If anyone dared talk to me, it was like, yeah, how lovely. How lovely to be so protected, because we are now in such a sad time where everybody looks retrospectively at the world and the world seemed to be much more grubby. Um, that's how they're highlighting the world, but I don't think it was like that, was it? I, I honestly, honestly, when I think about it, working, you know, I mean, working with 10 musicians, uh, I— when I look back, I have never once— did I have any— did I feel any threat, or they were always just very, very kind. And I— it meant more to me having praise from one of the musicians than anyone else, you know. If anyone said after a broadcast, 'Pen, you did okay there,' you know, I would be absolutely thrilled because they were, they were the ones and they're the ones that knew. Yes, and they're the ones I wanted to impress, you know. Of course, because they must have, they must have performed with so many other people. Exactly. And there was one, there was a One guitarist, I remember he was quite resentful because he said, how come after all the years I've learned at music school, how come I'm earning the same as a 15-year-old who's just started off, you know? So because the fee for musicians, um, for a broadcast was the same. And I, and I get that really in a way, um, because people don't realize that singing is an— is classed as an instrument. But, um, and, you know, I put in— I remember doing all my warm-ups and learning songs and learning the tricks. So, uh, but there was that point of, oh well, you know, she, she's, she's lucky, why, why was she doing that? But that was the only little, little thing, and that's why I had to try and be as good as I could to, to sort of justify myself. But did you put a lot of pressure on yourself? Because let's put it into perspective, you were the standout voice. Yeah. So, you know, sort of in that world of music, you have to stand out. Honestly feel any pressure, you know, I look back on those times and I think I had less pressure than trying to do cabaret or do television work, because then you're really focused. When you're with a band, you're with, you know, musicians And it's the most fun thing that you can ever do. You know, Penny, just actually since we're talking and you're a sort of a solo artist, even though you're with musicians, they do say that a lot of pressure is on the solo artist. So when you look at people like Amy Winehouse and so on, she had a lot of pressure on her as a solo artist. Do you think that's more true than ever? I think when— I think as you go up the ladder, it becomes more, more pressure because, you know, we have a thing in showbiz, in live shows, you're as good as your last show, which is really true. You know, you could have done a great show, you only had to do one bad show and people remember that. So yes, I mean, when I was doing— I did a weekly television show with Terry Wogan, it was the first lunchtime show that was ever even thought about, you know, at that time. There was, you know, you didn't have any television at 1 o'clock in the afternoon, but we did a live, and it was live. So that was, that was quite nerve-wracking if I've forgotten it like that. But no, we had a great time. It was something new, but, you know, I think I sailed through it because I knew nothing else, you know. I've never had any other job, so it was just, it was just normal for me. But isn't it also because you were talented and that's how you, that's how you engage with the world? This is who you are. It's like somebody who picks up a paintbrush. Yeah, I think I was quite secure with my voice, you know, so I think I trusted my voice, if you know what I mean. But I had a very good singing teacher and I remember she used to say, you'll have no nerves when once you trust your voice. And that's very true. And is that what you notice when you teach now? Because your world has expanded phenomenally. Yeah. Not always through, you know, the easiest of experiences, but when you teach, is that what you find with young performers? Yes, I do. I mean, we do a little thing called the Watford Festival, singing festival, that I encourage them all to do. It's just where they get up and sing in front of adjudicator, but it's a little thing for them to work towards. And I have noticed over the years, like, a few of them who had no confidence and kept saying, 'I can't do this,' and, you know, um, and I, I said to them, I said, 'Promise you,' I said, 'I'm going to make you a promise. When you feel secure with your voice, you will not be nervous.' And that is really what's happened. I mean, I've— last year, the year before last when I did it, two of them won the cup. You know, I mean, just because they're not worried about— that most people are nervous. I mean, you get the adrenaline rush, but we're talking about real nerves if they, if they don't trust what they're doing. So if you're worried about getting a note, or if you don't, you know, and you're thinking, oh, I can't get that note, it's too high really. But once you've done it 20 times, then, you know, you actually have nothing to worry about. And is it rehearsal? Is it practice? Practice makes permanent, yeah, I really believe that. I mean, there's— and can they practice, you know, I trained to sing in the theatre and so on, obviously didn't make a career out of it, but you know what's so interesting is, is it practice that actually makes— and can you practice on your own without somebody telling you whether you're pitch perfect? Well, what I've been doing in lockdown, I send out to various different— depending on who the pupil is, I send out a 15-minute warm-up and then they sing it back to me. And what is very important is that when you do these vocal exercises, it's no good just going, 'Boo Bobby, baby boo,' you know. You've got to do them, place the voice properly, and make sure that you're doing those. It's better to do 10 minutes of proper warm-ups where you're not just warming up your voice but you're placing the voice in the right way, building up your muscles and building up— and, and these people who do shows in London, and when they're singing, you know, it's vocal gymnastics. And, and they do it. I say to them, before you come on the lesson, I want you to— but I, I probably spend a month or two going through the exercises to make sure they do them right before I allow them to do it on their own. Ah, and do you have to help them choose a song that they love? I give them a list. I, I try and let them make their own decisions because I think, again, you know, we're inclined to be telling them what we want, and I think it's really important. My mother always said, you know, under 9 you can make decisions for your children, but once they get over 9, they need to know, they need to be able to make some decisions for themselves, and then they find out what they like. So I give I gave them a list of songs and I said, "All right, next week tell me which one you'd like to do." And that's incredibly— but the whole world of music is powerful. I love it. Yes, yeah, yeah. Now Penny, you became very famous and you are famous and well known through your work, and then your world changed. Yeah, I've had a couple of setbacks. Just a couple. Just, just a couple, yeah, as we do, um, what we call, um, yeah, I think the most recent one, it was in 2019, um, when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And it happens very quickly because you are feeling basically, you feel fit, you know, I've been playing tennis, I've been doing my yoga, I've been, you know, I was thinking, oh, you know, I'm really good for my age, and I've been okay, and, you know, and suddenly I felt this sort of— I thought it was a muscle because of the tennis, but it, you know, it niggled me. And I did finally go to the doctors, and I could tell straight away when she looked at me that she— there was something not quite right. She said, you must go for a mammogram. And but I, I was— I had 3 tumors. Well, so it— I, I was operated on within 2 weeks. I had a mastectomy. So it happened so quickly, and you go into a different— you go, you go, you, you stop being you as you knew you. You go into something else, and, and for a time there is sort of like a whirlwind, but there's nothing you can do about it. So you have to trust all these wonderful people that are looking after you. And the only thing is, I like to be in control, and I suddenly felt very vulnerable. I can remember waking up in the, in the operating room, and I, I thought, oh my goodness. But I did a lot of praying, I did a lot of self-talking, um, and I think the, the toughest thing is, um, You know, it does, it has changed you physically as well. So suddenly, you know, worrying about little things that I used to worry about, um, oh my, you know, my eyelashes aren't, um, aren't, um, as long as they should be, or, you know, all these little things. You go, wait a minute, you know, this is happening. But yeah, I mean, it's, it is tough. I'm not going to gloss over it. At the time it is, but it saves your life, you know. That's the way you've really got to look I mean, the thing that was really tough for me, I thought after the operation I didn't need to have anything else, but I was told I need chemo and radiotherapy, and I said, no, I think I'll be fine. I thought, no, you know, this is going to be fine. But then I was told to, which I do recommend to everybody if they're saying no, it's called an oncotype test where they can test your, your cells to see how much of a high risk you are for ever to come back. And I was actually on a yoga weekend thinking, you know, this is— I'm coping with all of this. This was a month or so after the operation, and I got a phone call to say that I was high risk, which I found really, really hard to accept. But again, you just, you've got to go along with it. But the chemo is tough because it does change you. You try and save your hair, you try and, you try and, you know, get on with it. But there was something that happened to me that was happened on the third chemo trip that I was going to. I looked in the mirror. My hair was now thinning and starting to fall out, and I looked at myself and I thought, my God, I could see that look of being— I looked pathetic, and I really didn't like what I was seeing. So I thought, okay, I'm going to do my Penny Lane bit. I'm going to put my full makeup on. I put my high heels on. I thought, at least walk, and In I go with this red scarf. I got this red scarf, got out as well, and it was 2009, and in I walk. And I went in with feeling different just because I've made myself up and got the— I even got the red lipstick to go with the red scarf. And everyone sort of looked at me, oh, oh, hi, you're going to party? And I said, yes. And I went into the chemo suite, and if anyone's had chemotherapy, you know, you're all sitting around with these tubes locked onto you. And I've got this, what they call a port, that was permanently in my arm, that you have to wear a rubber sort of thing over your arm to have a shower and everything. And then this lovely lady who we'd been smiling at before, she said to me, wow, you look fantastic. Oh, wait a minute, she said, before you plug me in, I've just got to go to the ladies' room. And she came out and she said, had to put my lipstick on. So you inspired her? So yes, and it became my thing that I would make— I would make, make sure that I went in and, um, did the full makeup. And, and it made me feel better because it made, it made everybody laugh as well because it was a bit OTT. But, um, I thought, oh, I'll go the whole hog. And it became— I became the lipstick lady and That was one of the reasons why it started me with the idea of writing this musical, this song, which was, "Keep your lipstick on, whatever else is wrong, always keep it in your bag, just made her put it on." So that was my whole theme. But that's fabulous, because actually, since we've spoken and I was putting lipstick on, I did think about that. And when I look at red lipstick, I think of you now. And But, you know, it's so powerful what you've just told us. So, um, not to gloss over, because I know how it— you can't gloss over the experience you've had. And anybody who's been— and most of us have been with somebody who's had, you know, sort of cancer of some form or another. But from that moment to that third chemo trip, you know, so how low did you get? And how— what pulled you out of it? Where inside you is that ability to pull yourself out of it? And not just yourself, others as well. Yeah, I think I just need it. Honestly, I really did have a moment on that day where I look— I didn't recognize myself. I think I'd lost myself. And I've always been sort of, you know, about it. Obviously, anyone in show business knows you've We've all got egos, and I was quite vain. And suddenly seeing myself, because you lose your eyebrows and your eyelashes as well, which is a funny story I have to tell. One of the— so I decided I definitely wanted to, uh, you know, get some brow stuff for my eyebrows because they were awful. So I got this dye And it was the one day that I think was like the fourth or fifth, because I had 6, 7 rounds of chemo. And I went in there and everyone was looking at me but with a really weird look. And they said, oh, oh, that's different. And I said, what is? My eyebrows had gone green. Oh, something with the dye and the treatment or whatever. I looked in the mirror, I had green eyebrows. Brows. Oh gosh. So I, I, I wouldn't— I just make— do a, do a check before you use anything. Yeah, just double check. So Penny, who did you turn to? Who, who was the go-to person for you? I know it sounds corny, but it was God. I mean, it's not corny at all. I'd, I'd had all these spiritual books which I'd been reading all my life, you know, from from the Buddha to, you know, Louise Hay to Marianne Williams, anybody, Eckhart Tolle. But I think, you know, there was that little, uh, little thing inside of me that I just thought— and it's with me now. I think that there is a higher power that we all have within us. And it's very easy to say, to try and say to somebody, oh, snap out of it. You can't just say that to somebody, just, it's not going to happen. But, you know, if you can make people laugh, I think laughter and music— you gave such a wonderful speech about your music and everything, I think it's wonderful. But the other thing I think that, which you obviously have been, have had great experience with, is laughter. Do you know what I mean? I mean, When you're laughing, it was like when I had the cold cap on and I was really suffering trying to, you know, with this cold cap is something that's supposed to try and save your hair, you know. My son was there and he sort of said, oh, you don't want an ice cream then, you know. It was just silly things like that, you know, that you just— But you must have allowed, given him permission to do that. So you didn't take umbrage at him saying that? It didn't upset you? No, no. I mean, if you've been in show business all your life with comedians, I mean, everybody's saying things like this all the time. Yeah, you have to get used to it. You get used to it. I mean, yeah, we do have— there is a sense of humor that we have. I think it's not just us, I mean, everybody. But if you can see, you can see the funny side of things, you know, it's, it's one of those things that you know that everybody is happening. But as I said, I went to this, this support group which is Linda Jackson Center at Mount Vernon Hospital in Northwood, which was just amazing because after the chemo you, you do like 3 weeks of every day having radiotherapy. So there was all these little things like you know, aloe vera leaves that you can actually buy the leaf and you could— I used to stick the whole leaf, this huge big leaf, over me because it's like burning. So you get to hear tips from different people all the time. But this one lady at the group that I went to, I used to rather than come home, I thought I just need to get my strength and have a cup of tea. And I got talking to these lovely ladies because they'll tell you about where to get your boobs from because there's so many things that you need to know, and although you read about them and it will tell you on this book or this book, you know, it's only when you're actually speaking to somebody about, you know, bras, which are very important to us, you know, you have to get a size Prosetto which is going to fit you, and it's— I found a place to buy some bras and get them properly fitted, and what fits you nicely. And also wigs, you know, I had— I was very, very lucky, I managed to get two amazing wigs. So again, very few people ever even knew that I had cancer. Ah, and did you want that? Did you prefer that? I didn't want to share it, I didn't want to talk about it, I don't think. Because again, it's that I didn't want to manifest it as such. I just felt it was private and personal. I shared it with my sisters and my husband, who is a retired doctor. And he, he, he, he— I think men are all— I have to speak quietly now. Men deal with things in different ways. Um, I could— I could— he said something to me once when I was feeling really sick and I couldn't seem to keep any food down. I was allergic to one of the sickness pills they'd given me. It worked the reverse. And I remember he just grabbed hold of my hand and he said, I wish I could take your pain. And I saw her and I— but that was the first time it ever said anything. Oh, because men see, as you say, you know, sort of men do deal with things differently and they want to be the ones to do something. Yeah, no, and he would just have this sort of very worried-looking face on all the time. And how did that affect you? It annoyed me, but as I said, you know, little things like him just saying, you know, um, I wish I could take your pain, or just something like that. Just, uh, you know, I realize, you know, yeah, I'm very lucky to have anybody who's living with me and caring for me anyway. So I think we're all, you know, very lucky if we have someone who is caring about us. Yes, totally. At that point So can I come back to your conversations with God? Because I do think, as you say, you know, sort of those moments, and you know, you said cliché, and I know people say, but I absolutely believe in conversations with God and the high power. Can you recall anything at that moment that made a difference? Yeah, I mean, I believe in miracles because, um, You know, I've had a few experiences where I had a near-death experience before when I was involved in a car crash, a car accident which I escaped from. Um, so I've survived that, and I think that, that it's— there's always been something that has been there. Um, and sometimes only in crisis people go the other way. They suddenly don't want to even address God at all because they're angry. Why me? And that type of thing. Or like myself, I just wanted, uh, to support. I wanted to talk. And you don't feel lonely if you can connect with that higher being. They say about meditation, you've got to find a meditation— everyone thinks it's a big old, like, Um, but meditation is actually— you can be walking in the woods, in nature, or just having a quiet moment to talk to yourself and just really take on what you are feeling. And, um, but I do think that, um, that we all have that with us, and I'm— it makes you feel warm and less alone. So you moved on that third moment, that third chemo trip, with the lipstick, the red scarf, and what prompted you to start writing your work? Well, music is— I've always been composing, it's always been a passion of mine, and I wrote a song for Gloria Gaynor and the Three Degrees, and I was working with with various pop artists at the time. Then I wrote a musical called Feel Good Academy about 10 years ago, which came from, again, a lockdown when I was not working and I was recovering from an accident. And I just think it just pops into your head. You wonder where things come from, but this whole idea, keep your lipstick on, whatever else is wrong, And the— there will be changes, changes in your life, just like the seasons, they will pass on by. You know, it— melodies just come to me. So this whole idea, I wanted to write about this basically on true— on the truth experience that I had in this group of ladies that we got together at the Linda Jackson McMillan Centre for coffees, and it was just all the different characters and different— the nun, I mean, you know, there was a nun in her whole habit with her bicycle clips on, and the lady said, "How are you feeling?" She said, "I'm feeling like—" you know, I won't even say with the word what she said. She said, and she said, "You know, you're so lucky you can go home. I have to live with these people every day," you know, and she was full of humor and going on ranting about the other nuns, how they weren't being sympathetic to her, she felt, you know. Um, and but she was comical with it, that was the funny thing. So it just made us all laugh, you know. And then I told them the story about my green eyebrows that made them laugh. And then there was a man there and he actually had breast cancer. Oh, which is unusual, isn't it? Or is it more usual than we understand? Yeah, I mean, and then he said, you know, and we said, look, we'll get you a bra, at least you're saving money on a bra. You know, I mean, so I think in a way, what would this nun and myself, we ended up bringing a little bit of humor to this place. Because one of the ladies was passing and said, "Oh my God, what's going on in there?" Because she could hear all this laughter when we're supposed to be meditating. So I do think that the humor of all these people— so basically I've written this whole thing about these people. Some are a little bit more invented, I've invented them, but about how we all take things differently. And how through sharing can be such a healing. And, and, you know, you don't want to be on your own, and you want to be with people that can understand what you're talking about. I think the worst thing that I found, even with my, my beloved friends who, who I did tell about my experience of the cancer, is that they always want to say, well, when so-and-so had this They always want to tell you about someone they knew that had it, but what you've got to understand about your cancer and the treatments, everybody is different. So that was something that was really sort of, oh yeah, well, I don't really want to hear about anybody else. Why would I want to hear about their treatment? Yeah, that's such a good point actually, you know, in that respect. How much do you want to hear of other people? And you know, we've hit on two things here. One is How much do you want to hear of other people, and how much do you want to see people's sadness? Yeah, yeah, and exactly, it doesn't do you any good to hear that, you know, they lost their hair and it never came back. You want to hear of the productive and positive things. Yeah, I mean, it is, I mean, the positive thing, I know it sounds crazy that something positive can come out of something that you've been through and still going through, because you're still on tablets. I still have checkups all the time. So, uh, it's— is that you don't take— I don't think I take things for granted. But the other thing that, that I'm aware of now, as I'm getting older, um, I— in my head, I still feel like 45. I, I mean I have so much energy and I have so much I want to do still. I want to, you know, I want to do a workshop with my musical with Nils. But Penny, is that because you have transformed this, you know, sort of this illness into something creative? And in the Greek times, that's what used to happen. They used to have, you know, go into the spa. Spas weren't the way they are now, and they used to have a dream about their illness, and then they used to transform that into music. Or into a play, or into a piece of sculpture, or painting. Do you think that by transforming your illness into something creative, it's given you a new lease of life? A different— not a new one, a different lease of life? It's given me definitely an urgency— not an urgency, I want to live. I want to live. I mean, I want to live, you know. I mean, you want to do something, you want to show this. I want to, you know, and I honestly believe that, as you said about your wonderful speech before, music can bring such joy, it can change your mood, you know. I mean, I'm going to the theatre again tomorrow. There's a film that I saw the other day that I really highly recommend to anybody, it's called Miss King Williams, it's all about the Williams sisters Aha, okay. You know, the tennis players and Will Young play— Will, I can't think of his name, Will, anyway, it's just the most amazing story of him having a vision and inspiring and basically he made his two daughters number one and two world tennis players in the world. So it, it is. And I mean, I'm not saying that I can have that much power that he did, but it was with determination. And he did everything different from everybody else, because how many times that even with record companies they say, oh well, when Elton first started, he did it this way, or so-and-so did it this way, or to get a musical off the ground you've got to be able to have this and you've got to do that. Everyone will tell 'What has happened before,' but you've got to, you know, how about if we do it a new way? Yeah, and I think that is the courage of having belief and faith in your own talent and in your vision, because here you've created something. What's— and can you just remind everybody of the name of your piece? Ah yeah, 'Keep Your Lipstick On.' And Keep Your Lipstick On is fabulous, and I do think that the courage to keep on with that and to keep manifesting it— at what point when you've written Keep Your Lipstick On and you've written that wonderful song that I know that I'll never stop singing now when I'm putting my lipstick on, do you— when do you know it's finished? When do you say, "Ah yeah, that's enough, I don't need to write anymore here"? I think that you just keep changing. I mean, I just get— keep, you know, uh, uh, wear your wig, let them guess, you know. It— I, I— the whole lyric was really, um, really on truth. And I think if you can get any truth in a song that has a meaning, that has a personal— you know, we're all going to make things up when we're writing things, you know. But somewhere along the essence is, is the truth. Like one of the songs I've written is, which me is me? It's not what you see, don't believe. You know, which— I went through, through a time where I was going, which me is me? You know, is it that pathetic girl there, or is it, you know, is it the girl in the mirror, or who am I going to be? Yeah, yeah, it was all of that. So a lot of the songs, and, and again, uh, There was that one, why me, why now, you know, my world has fallen from the sky, you know, so it was all one in three, why has it chosen me, you know, so, you know, I did a very angry song. Did you know, that's good, and what conclusion did you come to when you must have been asking yourself that question? Yeah, I was like, why me, and I, and Then I wrote this whole song about it, but it was good because within the musical, the girl who we've got, Becca, it's a little bit based on me because it was at the very beginning, I was a bit angry, I suppose, a bit pissed off, you know, and scared. And it wasn't me that I knew, that's why I was saying which me is me. And the story in the show, in the musical, is that this girl is transformed by meeting all these various other people in the, in the support group, and also having time to think about her. It's not just about Penny Lane the singer, this is suddenly you're the same as everybody else here, you know. So it was coming to terms with yourself as well, getting to know yourself better, Because I don't know— so the whole story really is based on her who does this whole transformation herself. But it's also so powerful because it will resonate with so many people whether you've had cancer or not. This whole exploration of transformation, this is what we're talking about through a musical. And musicals, as I've said, are so powerful. And you know that yourself, you know how it changes your mood incredibly. There is no question that people walk into go to a theatre, see a musical, walk out totally on a heightened mood. It's amazing what it can do, and I'm so delighted that you're touching a subject like this with the honesty and integrity that you're doing it. But when you do this, how, how do you maintain a distance from yourself, from your own experience? Well, I am collaborating with some wonderful writers. In fact, my son in lockdown lockdown, he started with me. I mean, he's, he studied, uh, music for 4 years, so he's an amazing musician. And I've never written with him before, so it was, it was him who I, I was passing my ideas with, you know. Um, so I got a good— and he's very critical of everything, so he said, Mom, you know, it shouldn't go like that. And I'm writing— one of the, one of the girls in the group is 24-year-old and I'm writing a song for her, and he said, a 24-year-old wouldn't say that. So he's made me really look at things. So, and also Paul, who is doing the script with me, Paul Alexander, he did some Red Dwarf series. So I've got some good people around me, and Glenn Kylas, who I wrote the last musical with. So I've got a team of people that I share it with, and we don't always agree, but I think I've got my sort of— I'm the one who is sort of motivating it, if you know what I mean, driving it. Yes, so are you the primary decision maker? Will you be the director? Are you now going to direct? I wouldn't, no, I'm looking for a director, obviously. I would, no, but I think with this particular— I mean, even with Paul, with the script, I'm saying, 'No, that wouldn't happen,' you know, or 'That wouldn't be said.' So I'm a little bit more hands-on than I, I was when I was doing the other musical, you know, because to me this must, this must have an air of truth about the whole thing. I want it to be fun, I want it to be uplifting, and I want it to have a positive message even though there's going to be, uh, obviously a serious subject I do want to— the most important thing is, is it's your attitude, how you deal with it. And I think if you can try— and it's not always gonna— you're gonna have a bad day, you're gonna have a really, you know, a pissed-off day where everything is, you know. But I also— on those bad days, on those, you know, down days, let it go. Just know tomorrow— like, uh, that there's a song, Take Every Minute, Take every minute, make it an hour. Make every hour a day. Take every day and make it a year. You will find your way. And it's really— it's the whole thing of each day. All right, we're not having a good day today, but let's start again tomorrow, because we're not going to be high and massively positive every single day. But I do think exercise is really important as well, whether it's walking a dog, whether it's going to walk in nature, um, and, and sometimes being with the right people. I was going to say, yeah, choose your right friends, because one thing you don't want to do, um, is to be sitting around, um, trying to put the world to right and looking at all the negative things that are going on around us. Which obviously they are, and we need to address sometimes, but we can also send all those people and the things that are happening in the world, we can also send them some healing prayers at the end of our prayers. And, but just your main song about lipstick, you have found something there, I think, that is going to inspire every single person. We've got a drag queen in the show actually, who's a good friend of the boy who's got— so we've got a— he, uh, and we went to— we were looking for a drag queen to go and see, and anyway, we played him the song and we said, look, at the end of the show, we want to finish the show with, uh, him being a surprise, and you coming on, would you do a version of it? So he's done a real disco version of it. Oh, fabulous! And he loved it. He, you know, it— for the drag queen, the song and the lyrics work perfectly. Where's the girl that I used to know? And he sang it, and he's Italian as well, so he's like, what the fuck, oh, she is wrong. It's very funny. So, uh, yeah, so it's It's going to be, you know, it's going to be— hopefully it's going to be some truth, but it's going to be fun. It is going to be fun, and also, as I say, it'll be something people can reflect on and enjoy, and you don't have to have had an illness or be with somebody who's had an illness. You can just go and enjoy the music for its own sake. But coming back to your experience, and we're coming close to the end of this programme. But Penny, you did say that you had some wigs that you wanted to offer. Yes, I have some really good— that was the other thing that really helped me. I managed to find, they come from America, but I've got some really good wigs that if anybody, you know, I'm very willing to share these wigs with anybody if they'd like to get in touch with you or through me. So yes, please. I mean, that's so important. We were talking about the drag queen, and I've often spoken to drag queens about their makeup and their ability to physically transform into looking amazing, of course. And do you think— how much of that is important, do you think? The wigs, did they help you? Yes, yes, yes, definitely. It makes you feel more you. I mean, just going back very briefly to— and yes, please, I'm very willing to give or loan any of these if I can, because they do make you feel better. It's very important that you find a good wig that you feel comfortable in. They can make you look great. But as you know, doing a musical, or even trying to get a musical to put on, is very, very hard to get the support, especially this, at this moment So we are looking to do a workshop, so if you know any theatre companies who would like to do a workshop with us, please get in touch. We're waiting. Yes, definitely. And also, just to tie up, Penny, thank you, thank you so much for giving this amazing story and also how you've transformed it and your singing, and also that you've come out of this with something quite amazing for everybody to touch on. And as I say, I'm sitting here looking at my MAC lipstick and it'll never look the same again. Yeah, so Penny, thank you so much for having this discussion, and it really should have been a lot longer because there's so much of your life that has, you know, is there and full of richness and will enrich other people's lives. So Penny Lane, thank you so much for joining in Your Mind Matters. God bless. God bless to everybody.