Your Mind Matters – Sharon Gaffney, Psychological Approach To Money In Business

Money makes the world go around, the world go around, the world go around, says the song from the film Cabaret. Money is often the motivation towards a better life. It eases the pain of poverty, creates independence and removes the run of the mill life. For many people and in society today, the route to success and self determination is through business. It is what drives a number of people to start business and it's why most people spend hours running their business. Politicians know in order to develop each country economically, they should encourage new business. And in 2020, during this time of pandemic, there were 6 million SMEs, that's small to medium businesses in the UK, which was over 99% of all business businesses. According to the House of Commons library, that is. But what does it mean to run a business? What is the psychology of finances? Because after all, that is how business is quantified, isn't it? Charles Dickens put it simply through his character Mr. McCorber when he gave David Copperfield this advice about managing money. Annual income 20 pounds annual expenditure 19 pounds 19 shillings result happiness annual income 20 pounds annual expenditure 20 pounds naught and 6 result misery. But is money the root of all evil? And is making money out of loaning money bad? Spiritual practice in the Bible, Leviticus 25:35 37 stated, if your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God that your brother may live beside you. You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit. In fact, it was not until the early 1900s that the Code of Canon Law, that is the spiritual religious law, changed which permitted Christians to charge interest for a loan. But what about money? But what about women? Less than 50 years ago, the Discrimination act of 1975 legally allowed women to open their own bank account and for many years after they had to have a male guarantor. Now those restrictions have been lifted and Barclays recorded that over 50% of new businesses last year are with women. Women now have just found the freedom to create their own business since the Internet enables them to juggle between work and home. This sets the number of UK businesses currently owned by women at 32.37%. But today's programme is not specifically about women or gender attitude in business, but the general understanding of money, economics, business structure and our attitudes towards finance in business. The vast number of quotes and talks about business are based on motivation, which assumes the rest falls into place that understanding the finances in business comes naturally that reading a Spreadsheet or profit and loss report or balance sheet is ingrained within us, but it is far more complicated and stressful than is generally discussed. I believe that it is the psychological attitude towards understanding finance, the financial structures, the equity versus debt systems and shareholder pressure that is often more stressful than running a business. Andy Warhol famously said, making money is art, working is art and good business is art. My name is Dr. Maria Kempinska MBE and although I'm a psychotherapist, I received the Queen's Honour for my work in business and leisure. My pursuit for independence and success, both personally and financially, led me to start my business. And I am absolutely delighted to be joined by a financial advisor and a master in her field, Sharon Gaffney. Firstly, welcome, Sharon, you have dedicated most of your working life to helping entrepreneurs and that is just wonderful. And can you just go over your background and how it led you to actually working in this field? Absolutely. So yeah, first of all, I'm a business advisor, not a financial advisor and need to be quite clear on that. But obviously finances come into it in such a big way. So, so I started, I left home when I was very young, I was about 17 when I left home and started to go into the hotel world initially and realized that actually that was not going to support me in any way, shape or form. So I had the good fortune of actually going into business and starting my own business at about, round about the age of 19 and I got into property. So that was a very male dominated area. And you know, being so young as well, there was, there was quite a lot of along the way and I had two really, really good opportunities in my life and one of them was working with Anita Roddick from the Body Shop and she was setting up something called the Body Shop Direct. And these were women and girls and people about to start their own businesses. And when she understood that that's what I, I've always done, she said, why don't you help people through those minefields that you've actually had to go through? So that's what I did and that's how I started to mentor people of starting their own business. And I absolutely loved it. I loved the way what, you know, women grew, their characters grew, their confidence grew. So that's how I started and then I joined an organization and it was a social enterprise to help people start businesses. And again, you know, that was from everybody, from all different walks of life life. And then I started to go freelance in doing this as well. And I suppose I've Helped about two and a half thousand businesses in my time. So, yeah, it's. That is a feat in itself. It is. I mean, some of that was when I was with Wenta and obviously it was with the team. But they. The interesting fact in, during that time when I worked in that, that organization was it was a lot of people that actually started businesses with zero money. So I've obviously helped businesses that have got finance behind them and businesses that want to grow. But I think for me, the biggest learning curve was supporting those businesses when they have absolutely zero money to start with and how we overcome some of those barriers and challenges that they face. So, yeah, it's been a really, really interesting journey and every day it's different. So I have the good. You know, many business ideas have come to me and sometimes they're the same business ideas, but they're never the same businesses. It's down to the individuals that actually run those businesses that, you know, makes those. That everything. So interesting. Yeah. And so let's pick up on what you're saying. You know, that a lot of people start without money, but what. So what is their motivation? Is it independence? Is it power? Absolutely. 90% is flexibility and independence. So a lot of people, especially where, especially in a recession or like difficult times like now, people look for alternatives. And I cannot tell you how many people have gone through lockdown, realized they can work from home, and then just decided, you know what, actually I can do business, I can do business online, offline, wherever I want, anywhere in the world. And it's that flexibility of suddenly realizing actually want to be their own boss. They actually want to be in control. And so it's control of a different. It's not so much power. It's the control of their own destiny. And does that actually give them power in your experience once they've developed? Absolutely, yeah. It gives them power over their own decision making, their own creativity, their own goals in life, what they want to do and going through a process with them gives them confidence and step by step by step. So, yeah, absolutely. So eventually agreed. It gives them a power of different, different nature. Because sometimes people associate power being, you know, at the top of the tree, etc. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be that way. It's power of their own destiny, definitely. So with this two and a half thousand businesses, you've got such a vast experience. What is the attitude towards money that makes the entrepreneur start it, start business? Did they often, as you say, did they come from nothing and start or do they have help? How do they actually get on the first rung of the financial ladder? So, especially when a business hasn't got money, I mean, they come to me and say, I need, you know, half a million pounds to start my business. I say, no, you don't. You know, it's really about looking at what can we do with what we've got initially. And obviously there's some businesses that are absolutely on it straight away, and we can get investors and work whatever they need. But a lot of the businesses just need to make ends meet right from the word go. And that's. That's my crucial job. I never say any idea is a bad idea ever. No idea is a bad idea. It's all about the viability of that idea. So through a process, and I'll answer the question that you came to in a minute, how did they come, you know, to that decision? But through a process, we then work out, you know, what, is there enough customers out there and is it going to make you enough profit? You know, at the end of the day, those are the two crucial questions. But a lot of people come to me purely because they are fed up with where they are and they just want to look at an alternative. And I do get people that don't even have an idea sometimes coming to me, which is. You may think that's completely bizarre, but it's about looking at their skill set, about what they're good at, and actually about having that fulfillment in life. Because so many people. There are a few people that will do businesses purely for money. Absolutely. Purely for money. And that's their motivation and that's their goals. But most people are actually wanting a little bit more gratification in life. You know, they want a bit of satisfaction in what they're doing, so they want to do something they enjoy. As you well know, Maria, in business, there's plenty of people that will say no to you. And you've got to have a thick skin and actually realize it's business, not personal. And if you enjoy what you're doing, it really helps to motivate you to go forwards. Yeah. And is there a set? Let's go through the skill set. But the skill set and also their attitude, because it is their own personal attitude that you have to begin with, that you can believe that you can do something. As you say, some people come in, they want to run a business, they've got an idea somewhere about business, and television gives them that idea. Nowadays, so many programs about business, and it's Very exciting at times, although they know it's tough and yet they think it's sort of a little bit gladiatorial. I can do that. But what is their skill set and what is the attitude that most people come in with? And they start with determination, massively. And passion. Passion has got to be there. There's got to be some form of passion, whether it's passion for the business, whether it's passion for earning money, whether it's passion for changing your life, but it's got to have that passion and determination. So those, the two skill sets that I can see in an entrepreneur that I know they're going to make it, you know, and it's weird because somebody will come through that door, say five people with the same ideas, and you'll look at those five people, but you'll know which two are going to make it purely because of their attitude. And what's the skills they need then? So the skills, I mean, the skills they just to have to have confidence and knowledge in what they're doing, you know, and belief, belief that's going to work. And so it's not just blind belief. That's why we do research, because we have to actually then look at the research, research of the business to make sure it's going to work for them. And quite often, you know, it's about them testing that market and seeing what's going. But I, I can absolutely tell you there's, there's people that will say, well, I'll do whatever, whatever needs to be to make this succeed. And you can see the drive in them where they won't take notes for an answer. They will persevere. They know they've got a good, good idea and they will just pursue it no matter what. So even though that can be detrimental sometimes, especially if they're putting a lot of finance into something, but as long as we do the right research, we do, you know, we can justify that that business will succeed. And in that, you know, when we develop determination absolutely comes into it. And as we develop a business, not only do we need to have the skill of sales and obviously have something to sell an idea, but also we have to understand our finances. Do we IGN that people, as they progress in business need to understand finances and the complications of finance? Absolutely. Because, I mean, finance, it is, business is simple really. At the end of the day, you know, and I think you said it succinctly with Charles Dickens quote, that was just spot on. It's, what do you need out of that business at the end of the day. And some of some people come to me and they only want to cover their business costs, you know, and their home finances and what they've got to do, you know, to be able to do that. And obviously, obviously other people just want to reach for the stars. And sometimes people lose connection with the finance and the money side of things because they're so passionate about what they're doing, they're not keeping an eye on things. And part of my career has been helping businesses at the other end when they're about to fail, really. And believe me, I didn't enjoy that side of things. But we used to look at how we could market their business and what had happened and you look along to see what's happened. One, they've stayed on the same track, they've not deviated, they've not changed their business model, they've not gone with the times. But also, you can see they've just completely lost track of the finance. They've either handed it over and not understood it, they've not had their finger on the pulse. They don't, they don't know what their goals are, you know, and their profit margins have just shrunk and shrunk without them realizing. And that's when they've got into difficulties. So what we do, whenever ever we start a business, the finance is absolutely essential. So they know exactly what they need to earn from through their survival budget, exactly what they need to earn from home so that they do get that covered straight away, even though it's not part of the business. It's an essential element that they need to really understand. And then we obviously look at the business costs, a fine tooth comb with minutiae to really make sure that they understand that. And then we look at how obviously many sales they need to obtain to just cover those costs initially. And then we go for whatever we can then achieve within that, you know, and do we need stuff, do we, how can we multiply it, etc. So it is basic maths, really. Basic maths. I know. And so many, so many people don't get that business is simple, it really is simple. You know, enough customers out there and is it going to earn you enough money? So I know and you know, it, it's at the beginning of a business and then suddenly some businesses can stay like that. So it's almost a sole trader business, you know, sort of as they call a micro business, small numbers, but it works and it gives them the independence and it gives them fulfillment and enough of a Sort of new family setup to make their business work. So there are lots and lots of those that absolutely work, and I do love that and the understanding of, you know, the Dickensian money in, money out, money that you spend. But what about when it does grow and it does come to spreadsheets, balance sheets, profit and loss? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, they, they do need to understand the accounting process. They really do, you know, and they have to grow with that business. Even if you have accountants in. I had a business that just grew phenomenally in, you know, two years, etc. And he did lose touch with finance. I said, the first thing you've got to do is regroup, really understand it, sit down with your accountant. That's, that's a meeting that has to happen whether you like it or not, you know, so that you understand where your business is going. And once he put, you know, went back to all the accounts right from where go and understood what a profit and loss meant. Because a lot of businesses, they don't, they don't really realize what's, what's going on. You know, it's. They've given it over to somebody else and that's it. So, yeah, it's just about understanding that you do need those financial meetings. They are essential so you know where your business is going. Otherwise, it's like having a football pitch with no goal posts. You know, you're running around not knowing what the hell you're doing. Totally. Yeah. Yep. So absolutely essential that they have to keep an eye on it and, you know, CEO level, you have to have that overview of what's happening within your business and understand those budgets and understand what each department you do. Make sure you employ people that are better than you as well. You know, at the end of the day, I always say that to a business. Make sure you have people in your business that have better knowledge, you know, and a better understanding. There's no shame in that whatsoever. Employing people that are better than you, because then your business will really grow. Before we go back into that subject, that part of understanding finance and especially as a business developer, because I was actually there and I've learned so much in the time I was developing my business, and frankly, since I developed my business in the 80s, from the early 80s, there were very few mentors like yourself to turn to, and especially in my world of entertainment. But coming back to an attitude, if a person comes from a family that absolutely has no business acumen whatsoever, is it harder? It can be. Yeah, it can be. It can be because. But it's about, you know, supporting them through that. And as their business grows, you make sure they outsource, you know, on the things they're not good at because they want to do the things they are good at. So it is important that you make sure. And there's so many opportunities nowadays where you can outsource, even through apps and things like that, you know, that do some of the work for you that you really don't want to do. So even with very little money, you can still manage that business. But it's about looking right from the word go. It's looking at the acumen of that individual and just looking at what their strengths are and where their weaknesses are. The SWOT analysis is as old as the hills, but it's such a good tool just right from the very word, you know, right. Right from the very start to be able to see what do we need to overcome, what are the business side of things that you don't understand? And it can be a minefield, especially when people get into the, you know, VAT and all those sorts of things. If they've decided not to use an accountant, you know, that they, they can trip up very easily. So it's about allocating your skills in the right direction and then looking at how, how can we accommodate for those skills that you can't. Actually, you're the. Do you think that, you know, lots of people I know went to business schools and, you know, sort of followed business models and within that they were given an opportunity to understand the models and what worked and what didn't work and the accountancy and so on. Yet when it comes, when push comes to shove actually, in the world of accountancy and you might have a financial accountant eventually, if your business gets bigger and bigger with the VAT man, it's down to you, isn't it? So I don't think people understand that. People don't understand the implications of those. The Minuti where the VAT man, and I've heard this over and over again, will walk into a business and if you've not paid it, or if you don't understand your VAT or if you've chosen that by, by chance the most incorrect accountant, which has happened recently, then it's down to you. They do not let you off the hook. I mean, I know we're getting into something deep and heavy, but I do think it's something that a lot of people in business don't talk about. Yeah, no. And the VAT man is the one, one area you don't Mess around with you? Absolutely. Don't mess around. You've got, you've got to be hot on it straight away, you know, and there is the threshold of 85, 000 but people forget that it's a rolling 12 months, not your financial year. And that's when they come unstuck because they've hit the 85,000 threshold within a 12 month period, not within their financial year. So they should have either been paying VAT and then you've got the whole raft of looking backwards and trying to work it out. But yes, if people don't understand vat, again, it's quite simple. It is simple, but it's that it's still another layer that you've actually got to account for within your business and you've got to understand it. You are absolutely right, Maria. You've got to understand that because you can become so unstuck your business can be shut down. And this is, you know, so I remember giving a talk at quite a reputable university and on one of my talks because I had a big problem with one of my accountants and this is not unusual in this period from 2000 to 2015 with the invention, if you like, or the adoption of the Internet with my accountant and it was such a big story. But, and when I sort of said you've got to be really mindful of how you get an accountant, who he is, that you've got to understand the numbers so you can oversee them as well as a lawyer and you know, you can't take people for granted that they're going to do the job they're going to do because fundamentally it comes down to you. Even if it doesn't come down to you as a person in business, the judge won't say, oh, you were the CEO, therefore, because the accountant went wrong, we will punish you for his work. But however your business is punished, you might lose your business. So how do you prepare somebody in business for that? How do you allow them to understand and do they? Because when a lot of entrepreneurial sort of schools, let's say, are so motivational, start your business, we will help you get finance, we will help you raise some money, we will work with you and so on. They never give the pitfalls. How dangerous is this? It's extremely dangerous. And I think any business that, you know, I help start, there's, there's one element that I have to go through with them is the legal element and you know, the VAT and the tax and when you're due to pay tax and Obviously if you're sometimes this whole traders, micro businesses come unstuck because they forget there's payment on accounts with Inland Revenue, so they've got to save that money ready to pay for it, you know, so it's absolutely essential right at the beginning you, you spell it out to them, you absolutely spell out, you cannot go wrong in this area and you know, you can't keep the receipts under the dog basket and things like that, which I have known happen. You know, you've got to keep on top of this. And it's given them the methods and the know how of simple tricks and simple, you know, solutions to be able to do that for themselves until they can afford to be able to get an accountant. But also bringing in resources where the. For instance, and I'll just give you an example, there's for, for, you know, your mobile hairdresser, all those types of businesses, etc, there's a, there's a fabulous app out there called PocketPA and it just does everything for you. It's got all your accounting on one app, you know, and it, it's, it's just, there's so much out there that can help that is not expensive. But also the training, there's tons of training as well, really good training actually through the Inland Revenue and on VAT etc. But it's accessing it and knowing where to access it. I think this is the key. Yeah, and, and having the time to access it. Yeah, that's the other key because so many businesses are just full on and you know, I've got clients at the moment that have just gone back to it full on, from having taken their foot off the pedal, you know, to now suddenly going absolutely potty. And they're saying I haven't got time. And I say you have to make that time. That is absolutely. So, yeah, I have this diary system with them where they, you know, right from the word go, they have their meetings planned, you know, they put that time in, that element in to be able to keep on top of it. Yeah, because I do think that if you're not versed in accountancy in finance, into just this basic element of business, without the developing business as a sole trader, there's still so much you have to learn about money. And if you don't have a partner or a friend or a relative that can help you, and without that help, you always have to pay somebody to help and you don't learn the tricks of the trade, let's say you don't learn, oh my goodness, start Preparing now or as a lot of very rich and you know, people in business have turned to members of their family. So if you don't have that in your family, you've got to pay for somebody to tell you. Because the sadness that I've experienced, sadness in the educational system is that they don't really tell people about this side and really keep on the educate, you know, sort of keep on as a community afterwards. Yeah, and you're absolutely right. It's an essential part of our education actually because it's going to come to us, you know, at some point in our lives. Absolutely. And I did develop a program called Big in Life and it was all about, you know, money management really, even though it was a developing a character and you had to get this character through life and it had certain journeys, but it was all about money. But if you told somebody it was about money, they would never have taken part. And it was all aimed at young people were about to go to university so that they could just equip themselves with understanding that this is how you manage money. You don't go to loan sharks. You know, this is, this is what you need to be doing the second that you walk out that door and have to start work or start being financially independent. So you know, it, it's not just in business, it's in life, isn't it? We need those skills right from the word go. And it's always been a taboo subject. It has, yeah. And that's so wrong. It's so wrong. It's not a hard subject. It's just one where the shutters come down on. So many people, you know, they, they really don't want to get involved with finance and money and, and that side of things. And it's amazing how many people still don't talk about it as well. But do you think then if schools can't do it because teachers themselves would need to be trained, do you think the government should make more of an effort since they to explain this side, to make it easier for people to understand? Because if they're encouraging people with business loans at very small interest rates, should they therefore be training them to help understand exactly what you're saying, what it means in interest? What is a shark loan? What is compound interest? What does that mean when you start repaying? This is not only important with a credit card because people often turn to credit cards, but just generally that element of math and where you turn to, where you get it from, should it be a government led thing? Should it be the Institute of Directors, that does it. Where should this information come from for the everyday person who wants to start their own business? And frankly, it helps the economy when they do. I think. I absolutely think that it should be an independent body that actually delivers this thing because obviously, if it comes from the banks, there's a little bit of an interest there for being able to do it. And I always used to teach people about APR because that was the easiest way for them to understand how to compare, you know, with one loan from another. And again, people used to go, oh, my God, that's so easy. I didn't know that it really is. And whether it should be at schools as a, you know, starters as a subject that is, you know, from independent people that come at. Into schools and teach it. I don't know. I. I haven't got the answer there, Maria, where it should come from. But I do know that the CAB used to run a lot of. Of the training and the CAB is the citizens advice. Oh, did they? Yeah. Yes, they did, they did. So I would never have thought of turning to them ever. No, exactly. Nobody. Nobody would. But. But is. Are they the right people? I think it's got to be, you know, the business world, actually, it's got to come from the business world. I do think perhaps the Institute of Directors, as you suggested, would be a very good solution because it's, it's about people that have done it as well. And I think that's the biggest thing I say to people when they were about to start a business. Learn from those that have done it. You know, I learned by my mistakes and I'm sure you did too. I'm sure there was bits and pieces that you think if you. If only I had known that. If only I'd had that hindsight, you know, and so, So I always talk, say, talk to people that are already in that situation, talk to people that have. Sometimes it's gone wrong for. Why? Yes, definitely. You know, so perhaps you're right. Perhaps it's from the business world that. That needs to come from where it's, you know, a real education on people, on finance. And I mean, I used to love running some courses about it because it's just that revelation. People go, oh, this is so simple. And it was amazing as well, because we. I'll. I did do this, as I said, for when I used to work at winter and we had the Duke of Edinburgh, he came to the site to see what we were doing and I'd got a whole bunch of kids in and was doing Beacon Life with them. And it was one of my favorite comments. And I was with him for about an hour and he was just such a great person, great personality. And he turned around and he said, can you put the government on this, please? I know. Well, I must say, I was on the board with the Women In Business Board for the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme, and I worked with the Duke a number of times and I cannot tell you what a joy he was. So his work was understated. The children whose lives he absolutely changed through his. Through the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme, which I know is still continuing. And, you know, perhaps we can encourage them to do something. They're always very keen and they're fabulous. It's a fabulous, fabulous charity, actually. So you're absolutely right. You know, can we get the government on this? But it's something we can talk about later. It's not something to be lost after this. But let's talk about if you don't know and you've got nowhere to turn to, but somehow you've now managed to see your way through all this and your business is growing. You now have to learn about investment. And people come in and say, you know, I now have. They say, oh, I've got a brand. They start with something and say, I've got a brand. Now, there's a difference between a brand and a name. And people don't understand that in itself, that a brand has much more than just a name. It has conditions attached to it, it has an emotional experience attached or emotional feeling. So Coca Cola is not just Coca Cola, a drink. It's also all the hype that goes around it with happiness and you'll feel better, you get a better attitude. And frankly, it did contain cocaine, didn't it, in the early days, and they did choose the Father Christmas personality to attach to the brand, you know, in the. I think it was 20s or 30s in America. So, you know, it's that type of thing. Suddenly the entrepreneur has now got so many different areas to understand. Do you think mentors, and they do turn to mentors, are well versed enough to understand the psychological underpinnings of the stress of finding out this information, all this knowledge. Because my experience from mentors, not all mentors, is that they guide you, but they don't necessarily, as you have, you've just said, go to Pocket pa and you're a different type of mentor. But some mentors literally just say, oh, yes, this is where you should go, and that's what you should do. Without specific. Without specifics I think a lot of this is about specifics, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I, I actually call myself an advisor because, because. And it's their choices. So I would never say you must go here, you must do that. It's about advising in the right, you know, here are your options. These are what you need, you know, should could be doing. Now let's choose which is the, the better, you know, biggest advantages for you really at the end of the day. But it is, as you were saying about brand psychology is, is a completely different ball game, you know, and you're right, but I love brand psychology because when you start getting into it, you just suddenly realize exactly what you're saying. Like with Coca Cola etc, and you know, the red and white and there's reasons why they choose those colors and, and you know, and everybody protects their brand and the brand is an entity in its own right. So it is about, it is about, you know, which mentors you do get and you should, you know, associate yourself with somebody that's come from the similar sort of background. I mean, I'm, I'm different because I do startups. So you know, it's when once you go to your next stages, it's about getting a mentor that comes from the industry that you're in so that they understand your industry. For instance, I will always, when somebody gets to a certain stage, I will pass them on to a business. But you know, somebody that I know within that field because they've experienced far more than I could ever possibly experience, you know, so it's about, it's about associating yourself, especially if you need investment, is going to speak to people that were in the actual industry that you are not just somebody who's a business, a general business mentor. So how many out of all your people that you help start up, how many continue? So that's a really interesting, really interesting thing to say. So we did do a huge piece of market research and it was after three years with 79%. That's huge. Very big. It's huge. So that's interesting. Since I've gone on my own at the moment, I'd say it's around about the 75 to 80%. So that's good. But after three years we've never conducted the research. However, I know an awful lot that do. We did a prison pro program which I, it was just amazing. Did about seven, eight years ago. And it was going into prisons to help those which were called persistent offenders. Yeah. And if they did one more thing wrong, they were going to have 15 years inside, even if they pinched a packet of Polo mints. So they were between 18 and 25. So we had 12 case and it was, it was an experiment. So we went in with these 12 guys and I didn't realize, and this is 10 years ago, that it was £70,000 to put one person through prison, which is for a year, not, not for the life of their center for a year. And I was just flabbergasted with that. So it was absolutely our goal not to have these guys reoffend. So we lost some because they all get changed from prisons, etc. And we ended up with nine of them. And out of that and, and this is now seven, eight years ago, I'd say that seven of them are still in business and never reaffirmed. And it's because they, they found, you know, that they knew how to take risks anyway. I know because I was going to say because their natural modus operandi was to take risks all the time. Absolutely. But they, they, they had a focus so, you know, a channel and whatever. And I, and, and this, the scheme was dropped and I just couldn't understand why because it was a lot of hard work because we had to work with agencies once they came out, etc to make sure that they weren't living in the same areas, that they didn't have debt issues, you know, so it was a whole package. It wasn't just about self employment but it was about them. They were very money motivated, you know, and some of them were already entrepreneurs before they went in, if you see what I mean. So, you know, they need to channel it legally and it's just, it just amazes me that, you know, £70,000 for somebody to go to jail and yet it was cheaper to send somebody to Eton. And I thought, wow, that's a TV documentary in the waiting, isn't it? Really, it is. But you know, prisons are such a fascinating subject. Yes. You know, because the mentality of people that go into prisons, why do they end up there? And it's not only, it's not from certain classes, it's everybody. But also, I mean, for example, in Wormwood Scrubs here they have a whole section for white collar workers, fraud and you know, accountants and CEOs and so on. So, you know, it just depends. People take that, they see the risk and they take it. So yeah, prisons is a whole big picture and I would love to do something on that. You know, is there an alternative way? But talking about risks, do they often say women are not on the board because they don't take as many. Their psychology is not to be risk takers. However, they do want women on board because they're not a risk taker. They are far more careful and calculating in their approach. So is that true about women and risks? Well, yes and no. So very vague answer there. It depends on the individuals. So I deal with a lot of women that have very little confidence and they start out in business. And whether this is a thing or it's not a thing, because I've heard both sides of the argument. But a lot of women do suffer from imposter syndrome as well, where they're sitting there thinking, I don't think I should be here. And it is all about that confidence. And yet I do know women that are completely in the reverse where they're very determined. They know what they want, they know where they want to get, they know what their goals are. And, you know, they're very confident in what they do. But I'd say, say that there's 70% of women do find it a situation where they don't push themselves. They don't push themselves forward for that. They do see others as a better situation to them. You know, they think that they're more qualified than I am and therefore they'll do a better job. And they will step back. They will step back. And quite a lot of people put their own. You know, they talk about the glass ceiling, but actually, I'd say a lot of women put their own glass ceiling there for themselves. They don't push through because it is that confidence barrier. And how that's come about, I think, is years and years of not feeling that they should be there. And I don't know why. Well, if you recall, when I opened the program, I talked about women only being able to access their own bank accounts in the 70s, late 70s, and then needing a man to be their guarantor. When I started Jonglas, I had to have a man, Garren being my guarantor for a loan that I took out. That's amazing. It is amazing because it's really not that long ago. So that feeling of you just cannot do it on your own, and that actually went into my, you know, getting a mortgage and so on. And to some extent, as you're running a business, you don't really understand how the financial structures around you are evolving and what they mean now. So they might say, oh, yes, you're a single woman or you're a married woman. You can do this independently and you can do that, but it's not really announced in that way and women are encouraged. So coming back to the imposter syndrome, I believe women often suffer from a lack of skills as opposed to lack of knowledge. And I believe that if they're given their skills, they can then move on in the boardroom. Because bearing in mind, I've known some fantastic women who've created, I mean, multi, multi million pound businesses that go into a boardroom and because they are introverted, and I've just written a piece about that, about the introvert in the boardroom, the secret weapon. Very often they are overlooked in the boardroom. They're not listened to because they're not given the time. So it becomes a gladiatorial setting. So you have to speak up, speak out, make your point, and do it in a way that you will be heard. So it becomes a bit of a performance. And if you're not heard or if you're not turned to, or if you do speak out, very often you will get. And this is what happened to her and I. She was an amazing, amazing entrepreneur. Her ideas were always put down as if she didn't know what she was doing. She was always right, by the way, because she'd experienced this in building up her business before the corporates. So that is, how do women hold their own in the boardroom setting? And frankly, how do. Because it does depend on the CEO and the chair of the board that actually has to make an effort to allow women to be heard. And very often the boardroom is, here is the meeting, we spend a day doing it. You know, we'll go off and have drinks and isn't it wonderful? But a lot of meetings happen in and around the actual board meeting itself. Phone calls are made, chats happen before and by the time you're in the boardroom, of course, women feel imposters because they haven't been privy to all those chats, they haven't had the drinks in the pub because they've gone home to look after the kids or it's not their nature and so on. So I do think the chair and CEOs of all boards need to look at this, need to understand, give the person an opportunity to speak, especially if it's a woman who has created her own business in the entrepreneurial setting. And I mean, you know, as you understand, you grow it to a point where you get a big independent investor who's prepared to put money into it and then they become a shareholder and this is where you go for big investment in the city, then they should really respect the female entrepreneur and give her that time. And if they can't find that, if they don't understand why she's saying something, speak to her afterwards and say, what did you. What was your experience? If they don't have the time to do it in the meeting and they don't, there's this sort of. This is what happens, you know, we will allow everybody to speak and those that speak the loudest win. And so I do think women suffer in that respect. And consequently, when they come out of the boardroom, it becomes so territorial and it becomes so threatening that other women hear that from women and think, I don't want to go there. So I do think we need to change that message. Well, we talk about systemic discrimination, so possibly there's been systemic discrimination there for a very long time and we need to actually look at it from the top down. We do with the minutiae. Just absolutely look at it and think to ourselves, no, how do you. We tackle this and how do we improve it? There needs to be something there. So it makes it not an easier pathway, because I don't think everybody needs to be there on merit, but it certainly needs to be a pathway where you look at your practices within the boardroom. So I agree with you. I think that having some line of conversation, of being able to talk your ideas through and explain them without feeling judged and having the opportunity, as you say, to explain it, you know, for somebody truly to listen. And I know these are very mental health, you know, terms, and thank God they are, because it's not just saying, let's have a cup of coffee and your mind is on something else. No, truly, listen, what is that person saying to you? Because that could actually turn your business around. And I think that's absolutely key and particularly for women. But in your business and your startups, is there. What's the percentage of male to female? Mine's 30% male, 70% women. Fantastic. So. And how many of those actually go on and develop from there? Oh, yes. So I ran a female business club called Sapphire Business Club, and some of my women there are just. Have just really grown. They're phenomenal. There's. God, I'd say out of the 70%, I'd say a good 30% of women really fly. Absolutely fly. And I know that doesn't sound many, but many of my startups are ones that just want lifestyle businesses. So, you know that that is actually quite, quite, quite a large percentage. And yeah, they've outgrown me which is fantastic. That's what I want, you know, I want them to outgrow me. Yeah. You know, they don't need me, they need somebody else now to be able to support them through that next level because they've got, they've hit that place where they need somebody who's in that sort of line of industry to be able to support them through. So yes, I say it's growing, I really would. And I say attitude is growing as well. I do feel now women don't think they need to think like a man now. Yeah, that's a big key, isn't it? Yeah. They now bring their own, their own personalities, their own ideas, their own thoughts, their own way of running businesses. And what encourages me incredibly when I first started with a program called and it was back in the business link days in EDA and we did something called Inspiring Women's Enterprise and they said, Sharon, can you head this up? And I just said to them, you know, why does women need extra help? They're perfectly capable. I was really quite incensed that I had a program just for women to be able to learn how to do business, you know, something. But actually I changed my mind very quickly because once I started the program I had CEOs that come out of the city because we were quite close to London. So we had CEOs come out of the city that were earning six figure salary salaries that about to start a business to women that had just been bringing up their children and had not worked for 13 years, you know, sort of thing in the same room. And what amazed me was the support they gave each other. And, and I'm not talking, you know, like a support group, that's not what I'm saying. But it's that encouragement, that confidence building, that experience. So even. And one of my favorite quotes, I remember some, one, one young lady said to me, you know, I can't run a business. All I've done is look after my children. And one of my favorite quotes from Anita Roddick was if a two, if you can negotiate who has the last toffee or a four year old, you can negotiate any contract in the, in the world. Yeah. And I, you know, I quote that so many times I, because I just loved it. But it was amazing how the woman that was the CEO was equally as unconfident. She'd never run her own business. She had teams of people doing everything for her and now suddenly she was starting from scratch by herself and have to put. And becoming vulnerable because she is that person putting Themselves out there, but the women just absolutely locked in and whoever was in their seat, support groups, it was amazing. So it was peer groups a lot of the times, peer groups as well, really encourage people. Yeah. And also, I think your point about women who have been mothers, you, you know, you become a leader as a mother, there's no question. When you look after your children, you have to lead, you have to make decisions, you make financial decisions, you make all sorts of decisions. And sometimes it's the leaders, when they grow up in a family, and Alfred Adler talks about, you know, who does what as a child. Can they lead as a child? You know, are they the captain in a football team or in a netball team? You then know what it feels like to be a leader. And I think women who've had children often understand the mentality of a leader. Sadly, I still think that a lot of the wealth is geared towards men and the male, the masculine, not male. Masculine psychology is much more attuned to wealth and so on than the feminine psychology. Because, as you say, a lot of women now are feeling much more comfortable in introducing their own methods, as I did when I started Genres, the much more supportive method for comedians. It sounds a bit, you know, trite. It was such an important element of my company to make sure that comedians felt supported before they went on the stage, because these were all mavericks in their own right and they needed support. There wasn't a structure like this at that time. So now women are getting the confidence to do that. But can I move on before we finish this program, which we're coming close to the end, but it's been a joy talking to you. I know it's gone very quickly, you know, and we all know that song by abba. Money, money, money It's a rich man's world. And doing the research, and this is coming away from the specificity, specificity of your work, to your own understanding of the world. It says that there are more billionaires that are male than female. Now, as I was looking into the background of all these, all the billionaires that I noticed, especially in the usa, have all had parents who were rich. They all had money, had somebody to lean on, had somebody to loan money, borrow money from. Even Jack Ma in China borrowed money from his sister when he was starting Alibaba. And the power of your family being supportive to you, how do you see that? Well, obviously, I mean, that gives you one step forward, doesn't it, really, at the end of the day, if you. If you've got that support behind you, Then you've got that confidence, you know. And I remember going into a group of high powered women, so these were really, you know, came from those privileges, backgrounds. And when I was listening to some of the money that they wasted, that was what, what absolutely flabbergasted me. When I've got somebody who start trying to stop business is nothing and somebody else who hadn't done the research, hadn't done that and lost, you know, 2.2 million doing something that they didn't really actually look into in the first place. Flabbergasted me, you know, and that's because they got the money behind them to be able to do that and without having to have that worry. So it's, it's, they, they're able to take those risks, they have that support. So money then does breed money because it's about sometimes taking that risk where you have, you have to, you know, to grow at the end of the day. And if you've got a bit of confidence behind you knowing that, that you've got backup, of course you've got more chances. You've absolutely got more chances. So yes, and then we, sorry, the person without it will be hesitant to take the, the bigger risks. The biggest barrier for me is when somebody's about to employ people. Yes. Over that barrier, you need to employ people to grow your business because you can, you can earn double, you can earn treble, you can earn more, but you've got to work on your business, not in your business now, you know, and that's, that's a big shift. Yeah, massive shift. And just that simple shift for somebody who hasn't got the money. Whereas somebody who has. Right, we'll get 10 people in to do this team. You know, there's a total different mindset, total mindset. And I think that all these elements that we talked about today really need to be spoken to women. And I think it's, and I know there's this sort of theory that women don't need this so much. You know, there's business loans and everything out there. But I really believe these psychological steps for women particularly or people who don't have the financial backing in a family or friends, then I do think this is such a powerful statement to make. Look, that switch from running it yourself to employing somebody can be massive. I mean I remember talking to people from corporate world who went into, wanted to start a business and they were trying to run it from a corporate perspective with far too many people on the executive board and not enough people actually running the Business and they didn't understand that either. So there's so much in the psychology of business, not only business practice, business structure, but also the business understanding. But if you have a family that you can talk to over a drink on a Saturday or pick up the phone on a Sunday morning because you've got something on your mind, then, you know, that makes life a lot, lot easier. Perhaps we should, we need to look at that. And as you're saying, you know, perhaps the Institute of Directors, as we have spoken about, could do something like that where there is a helpline that is far more available instead of the big educational system. You know, learn this and it takes you six weeks to learn something. The quick question that somebody might have, have in that morning, I'm just about to employ somebody, I've made a mistake. How do I deal with this? Oh, by the way, ACAs are brilliant. Yeah. Well, you've also got the business growth hubs as well, which did all around the country and you know that, that can be supportive. But yes, yes, there's option needs to be more options out there. I think it's a stepping stone process as well, you know, so it's of kind got to be from, I'm at this stage, where can I go? I'm at this stage, where can I go? I'm at this stage, where can I go? You know, so it's, it's, as you, as you're growing, there's different options and I, I do think perhaps the Board of directors is, is a very well placed to do that. I mean, the government got rid of business link years ago. Years ago, you know. Yeah. And although there, there were some failings there, there was one point where people knew where to go to. Exactly. And that's what we're missing, we're really missing that. But do you think, and you'll know this from your own experience in life, do you think that the business link or the new business link or the new business communication system, whatever it is, where you can. Advisory system where you can pick up a phone and ask the question, should include not only the mental approach, but also include the family. You know, I have, my business is impacting like X on my family. I need mental health support. It's not just mental health, it's mental attitude support. Because motivation sometimes just is not enough. No. Yes, you're right. And any business that, because it is the family that goes through it as well, you do need that support behind you. But yes, I really like that idea with the mental health because so many of my businesses do get burnout. You know, how do they cope with that? You know, how do they cope with that? I'm not a mental health worker and obviously I know lots of people that can support them. But it's that, how do you manage that? How do you manage that sort of, sort of side of things as well, without completely going under? Without completely. Exactly. Because we all at some point in our life go through something that is catastrophic. Yes. Whether it's something ourselves, an illness ourselves, or the death of a family member. Or it could be, you know, sort of something happening as in my business where my accountant stole a lot of money, you know, and that is not new. This in these past 20 years, that has happened over and over again. But it nevertheless impacts on the business owner and the business owner, the family. It just impacts everywhere. And the support mechanism outside needs to be there for everybody. Because you do scrabble around at that moment thinking, who do I turn to? I've got this, you know, I've got an illness or, you know, my father's terribly ill or my husband's dying or my mother's dying. How do I cope with my business? What is the best thing for me to do? So you need a sort of ACAs, I think, for the whole thing that you can subscribe to, but get an answer in our world. But just to tie up Sharon and thank you, Sharon Gaffney, so much for your input. Is there something you would like to say to anybody wanting to start a business in a very short one liner? Do it. If you've got an idea. No ideas. Best idea. We bad idea. We will just, you know, just do it. Just do it. Have a go. There's nothing, nothing's going to go wrong, you know, without giving something a try. Give it a try. You've got a try. And you know what? I think now that people, when they listen to this, will know that you're there as well to help and advise. I think that is such a big bonus that everybody's heard you. So, Sharon Gaffney and this is yous mind matters. I'm Dr. Marie Kimpinska. Thank you so much for joining and the conversation. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.