Get Booked – Tom Vaughan MacAulay, Countdown To A Killing 180722

Hello, you're listening to Get Booked with me, Hazel Butterfield, for Women's and Men's Radio Station. Welcome to today's show. Now, Get Booked is all about talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different guest each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. Now joining us on today's show, we will be talking to the author Tom Vaughan-Macaulay with his book A Countdown to a Killing. London, Sicily, Huddersfield, 2016 to 2017. Wen Li is a deeply kind and sensitive 29-year-old British-Chinese woman who suffers from severe obsessive-compulsive disorder which manifests itself in an incessant overwhelming fear that she might have murderous impulses. Unlucky in love and emotionally scarred, Wen falls for her colleague Lomax, who is in love with a Sicilian young woman he met while working in Italy. He and Wen do share a mutual loathing of their boss, who is struggling too with a toxic relationship and his father's refusal refusal to accept his sexuality. Told through interwoven correspondence, emails, and WhatsApp messages, with the suspense around an impending murder steadily building, Countdown to a Killing is a deep exploration of multiple perspectives and points of view of individuals who are inextricably bound. The key themes of love, Sexuality, ethnicity, mental health, and acceptance are sensitively explored in a unique, linear yet multi-layered and metafictional narrative packed with humor, heartache, and a cast of expertly crafted characters. This contemporary take on the epistolary novel will have you laughing and crying in equal measure. Now first I have a bit of a competition to tell you about. The Evening Standard announces the launch of its What's Your Story competition as part of the Stories Festival in association with Westfield London. The What's Your Story competition aims to discover a new generation of voices, to encourage and inspire creative talent. So make sure you share this among your writing community. The competition will be supported and judged by esteemed personalities from across the creative industries. The Evening Standard Stories Festival will be held in central London from the 22nd to the 24th of September, bringing to life today's most exciting narrative opportunities. From page to podcast, the multiplex to the metaverse, as we hear from publishing, screen, and audio creators. Expect intimate talks, panel discussions, and live event experiences, with the lineup being revealed over the summer. After a successful debut in 2021 that I did attend and thought was incredible, with such a range of contributors that saw thousands of Londoners join the brightest stars of page and screen for 3 days of talks Workshops and award ceremonies. The Evening Standard Stories Festival is back, celebrating how stories connect us and the new ways in which we can connect with stories. This inclusive initiative gives a platform to upcoming and established voices and is guaranteed to get London talking. The What's Your Story competition, returning for its second year, gives a new generation of creators from the UK the chance to tell their stories in diverse forms and receive industry support. The competition is supported by Westfield London to discover, develop, and champion national talent. Applications opened on the 22nd of June for anyone with an original story about themselves and is ready to tell it in a fresh and compelling way. This might be a story of childhood, of growing up, of the city, a story of the imagination, anything at all that's your story. This year, reflecting the vibrant array of narrative forms, entries can be written for the screen, the stage, or the page. Applicants can tell their story through dialogue, lyrics, poetry, or prose. Submissions can be written or performed. Each entry must be either up to 1,000 words or a video of up to 2 minutes in length. As I said, the entries open on the 22nd and close on the 24th of July at 11:59 PM. There will be two initial longlisting processes before a shortlist is submitted to a final judging panel, and judges will select the overall winner. There's no fee to enter, and winning pieces will be performed live at the festival and published on standard.co.uk. As well as receiving a writing advice session with one of the judges. The panel of judges will be chaired by author and journalist Lottie Jess and include Sherwiz Loveland, who is a writer and editor, Deblina Chakrabarty, vice president of MGM and a founding member of the Holkahani, a collective of eating fiction writers of South Asian origin, From me to Andrew Hunter, the scriptwriter and senior researcher for BBC2's QI, who co-hosts the award-winning page podcast No Such Thing As A Fix. As London's most iconic news brand, Evening Standard has always played a role in shaping the creative life of the city. The What's Your Story competition and story festivals and live events have been a key part of that, and discovering new voices After a successful debut in 2021 that I did at North End and in various links on my Twitter @nuttybookteam, good luck for all of you joining the brightest stars of the page. Now, as promised, we have the author of Countdown to a Killing, which is released on the 7th of July. Now, rather than the scene opening with the dead body appearing, consuming the screen, search to uncover the killer and their motive. How passé. Uh, we have the build-up to what could indeed happen without knowing whodunit nor who it will be, told via various forms of one-sided emails and WhatsApps from the key characters. And yet what is left unsaid is just as intriguing as the cleverly depicted and intricate mannerisms of each flawed ego. But aren't we all flawed egos? Riddled with dry witticism and irony. I suspect that's a Huddersfield side. A book that challenges perceptions of our own subjectivity via a unique storytelling style, an introspective nature of characterization, and it's enthralling, detailing the incredible loneliness and desperation that can develop in personalities and affecting their mental well-being. Many of us just want love in different ways, not always conveyed the most succinctly, but oh, how complicated can late-made life be? I thoroughly love this book. It is quite unique, and it's one of those ones that you just kind of read walking down the street because you don't want to stop until it's finished. Tom Vaughan-McAuley, hi! Thank you for joining us on Get Booked. Hi, thanks very much for having me, and the introduction there as well. I like it very much. Oh good, I'm glad. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Yes, so I'm 42 years old, I'm a solicitor and I live in London. I'm a family man with 2 kids and I've lived in Italy several times in the past, so 3 years— sorry, 3 times now I've lived for long stretches in Italy and speak fluent Italian because I did languages at uni. But I've always been very keen on, you know, focusing on my literary aspirations alongside the law, so I'm very The second novel, finally. So you're, um, you're still in the law and writing and just juggling the two while also being the father of two very young children. Yes, it's been a busy year, that's for sure. And as you'll know well, you know, it's very busy being a parent but also, um, Combining any sort of aspiration beyond the sort of day job is busy but definitely worth it because, you know, I think it's important that people follow their real vocations and aspirations alongside professional pursuits. Well, get booked. It's got a very strong theme of mental health and mental well-being, as are all the shows on women's radio station and men's radio station, and I think fulfilling your passions is such an important element of maintaining good mental well-being, and the nature of writing is so cathartic anyway, especially when you're able to share certain parts of yourself, you know, with it being based in Palermo. And was it Palermo that you lived in? Well, no, actually, I wasn't in Palermo, but yeah, I totally take what you say about the catharsis of writing. I think that's, you know, and some people of course don't enjoy it and feel that writing is a very solitary activity and a bit monastic, etc. And I've always felt that it gives me a tremendous sense of achievement and satisfaction, whether you're writing to get published or not, but just a day's writing. But writing can be, it can be a solitary exercise. People can write just to kind of order their thoughts. And just to kind of get down on paper sometimes. I kind of see it like a lot of my friends who struggle with sleep, I say to them, literally just write down what's going in your head. Nobody has to know, you know, keep it like a diary if you want. It just helps order your thoughts and kind of like a brain dump in a way. Absolutely. Just kind of get it all out there. Yes. And I think that often writing things down clarifies things to you yourself better than it would've done if you hadn't. So it's fascinating for whatever reason. You know, making these patterns on a screen actually clarifies one's own thoughts. It's strange but true, yeah. Yeah, and I think helping reading about other people as well, especially because of some of the topics you cover in A Countdown to a Killing. It kind of covers lots of different issues that people have, and, you know, we're all different personalities, we all perceive things differently, and also we do have Wen who has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and we have the whole nature of just hearing one-sided conversations, which is so prominent in real life. I was reading the book and just going, right, he's just got this message, but we— he's just sent this message, but we never really know the other side of how it has been received. And I just kept on thinking, you know, I made it up in my mind. I mean, I must say, one of the main characters, his best friend, who he just constantly incessantly wrote to, I already know what she's wearing. I know what she thinks about him. I was just as exasperated as I'm sure she was. You know, I gave a lot of, obviously, like loads of serious thought to, to how to present this book. And obviously, um, as you say, it's, you know, it's very important in the modern— it's, you know, because I think even Jonathan Franzen, the that, you know, the great novelist was saying that TV certainly was getting— is getting so good, and new media is getting so good, that the novel is in some ways under threat unless it embraces the, you know, innovative ideas. And it just seemed to me that actually there were two things there. So one is modern forms of expression. So taking WhatsApp, for example, I don't think that WhatsApps are being used in a way that we've really thought through. And I believe, it's only my personal opinion, that in 50 years, 100 years, people look back and say, oh my God, they were so— everybody was so naive and innocent because they wrote down in this sort of permanent form thoughts that really are there for oral expression, you know, because they're just how you're feeling at that moment. So, you know, you might say about your best friend, oh, I hate that I hate that sod, or I hate that man. And if you just say it orally and I'm listening to you and I understand that, you know, Hazel's just emotional, not that you mean I hate him. But if you've written it down in a message, if that person finds that in 5 years, it will look very hurtful. And it made you think, no, if there were a leak of all messages, you know, how many people haven't written a message that sort of would offend or hurt virtually everybody they love? And so I thought that was important to explore, this sort of permanence. But what's interesting is it does give rise to someone's real thoughts in a sort of real-time way, which never used to happen because it used to just be oral. So it's fascinating to see how people are talking about other people from their own personal perspective. And that's why I thought it was important to produce, you know, different people's perspectives, but not in conversations, just them talking to others so that you're literally seeing as if it were like from a camera, you were seeing other people's experiences through their words. I think with WhatsApp, though, there is this immediacy. People can see you're typing, so you kind of are under pressure to respond quicker, more often, even more so than text. Whereas you also cover emails as well in 'The Countdown to a Killing,' and that is generally perceived to be something that's more well thought out. But yet, paradoxically, I mean, I annoy a lot of my friends with my WhatsApps because I do voice notes. First of all, it's quicker. Most people will have about 30 WhatsApp groups going at one particular point, as well as getting in touch with friends and family and work and whatnot, and it's just there's so much and it's hard to keep up. And I do voice notes because then I know that the intonation's coming across properly, and it's completely eating up people's storage. So this is, you know, a complete apology to anybody who's listening who gets WhatsApps from me, but I do try my best to do voice notes because I just think it's less open to subjectivity and it's quicker. That's interesting. I mean, I think certainly you're right about the emails being more thought out. And so in the book, what we were doing is that obviously one of the characters, Lomax, is self-absorbed and a want-to-be writer anyway. And so like many want-to-be writers, you know, enjoys sort of perhaps laboring his own— not laboring, but sort of elaborating on his own thought process. And And hopefully he comes across as a lovable and quite amusing character, like completely absorbed in his own world. So he's clearly lonely and looking to be loved, and yet, you know, writes these dramatic messages about his fairly banal life in some respects to this loyal friend. And you can hopefully get the sense without ever seeing an email back from that loyal friend how much she loves him and how supportive she is of of him continuing to write to her like this about his, you know, his thoughts and ambitions, etc. And meanwhile, you've got Wen, who, as you say, suffers from OCD, which I thought was another really important thing to focus on because I feel that, you know, mental health is obviously a big topic, although it's always been topical. And, you know, I know someone said, you know, it's a bit the same about inclusion and diversity, and I think that you can have a superficial inclusion, diversity, and tick the boxes, but that actually, um, inclusion, diversity should also— should always be inherent in any literature, because literature should be going to the sort of the truth and the human condition. And to do that, then by definition, there should be diversity and inclusion. But I thought that OCD hasn't been focused on as much as perhaps some of the other, um, mental disorders or that people suffer from, and yet is a fascinating one in terms of the lack of understanding. I still haven't got any personal experience of it, but it just felt that almost philosophically it was an important one to explore because it again goes to the heart of the human condition. You know, the irony that the person who's constantly worried in the room about being a murderer is by far the least likely person in that room to be a murderer. The person who's standing at the platform going, oh my God, 'Do I want to push people in front of the train?' is the only person who's sort of guaranteed not to push someone. And it's just such an irony of the human condition that, um, if, you know, if you're a truly caring person, then you're going to have deep-seated terrors of things that perhaps less caring people wouldn't, wouldn't even worry about or overthink. So that felt to me to be a really interesting area to explore. And, uh, through Wen, who's obviously a very sensitive and caring individual and is you know, uh, tormented by these, by these fears about, about herself. Well, she's tormented about the fears of herself, but she's also tormented by the burden of her condition and not wanting to burden other people, which, you know, you could attribute this to the majority of mental health issues and conditions. And the more we talk about them, the more we realize, and the more we can understand people, because sometimes we just think, oh, I don't, I don't like that person, they've got these issues that make me feel bad about myself, or they always let me down, or this, that, and whatever. And the more we the more we can kind of just understand each other and have a little bit more empathy, just the better the place can be. I mean, these issues are exacerbated by the burden, and if that burden is eradicated or at least lessened, we're all going to be a lot happier and healthier. I think that empathy and living with burdens is one of the key themes actually of the novel, because she's been like You know, I think it's true to say that most people with OCD for the first 15, 20 years, you know, won't, won't tell people because they're just confused themselves. And that's common to many mental health disorders. And I think so she's got that burden. I think you've got, you've then got this sort of another character who's, who's living with the burden of his— well, it shouldn't, shouldn't be a burden, but for him, the burden of his sexuality. Vis-à-vis his father, because his father's an old-fashioned— and I thought that was important to explore because it feels like anachronistic, you know, it feels like this was something that used to be an issue 30 years ago and it's not, but actually it's not true. I think that it's fairly accepted actually that, you know, a lot of people are struggling to open up about their sexuality to the older generations. And so I felt that was important to explore. And then you've got you know, Lomax, who's clearly, you know, who's lonely and has got self-esteem issues, who again is sort of struggling with those, and in his case, like many men, trying to sort of hide them through these wild ambitions that perhaps are, you know, a sort of solace for him, or a sort of a refuge from the reality that he's a very nice but sort of, you know, not outstanding man, basically. I must say, I think I describe him as annoyingly annoyingly endearing. I think that's fair. I think it's been very interesting to see, you know, early reactions from reviewers. And I think that's funny when you say annoyingly endearing, because a few reviewers— they were both— they're all female, actually— did say almost identically, they said, you know, "He drives me insane," with a smiley, you know, or something like that. So I can see how he'd drive people nuts. I don't know so far how any male reviewers have taken to him otherwise, but yeah, that seems a common theme. And I think that was my take on him as well, you know, he's a bit infuriating but he's got a good heart, and so yeah, no, it's nice that you took away the same thing. Well, we must make sure that all our listeners go out and get Countdown to a Killing, and all the men, if you can let Tom know what you think, that'd be amazing. Yes, exactly, let me know what you think of Lomax. Now I want to know, are you aware But my hometown is Huddersfield. So no, not until you just said it at the beginning of the interview, no, so great, fantastic. So obviously Lomax's hometown too, and Katie's. So I would, yeah, I was born and bred in Huddersfield and I left when I was about just about to turn 20. I've been in South West London ever since, but it's just, it's one of those things where you kind of, you always like hearing about your hometown, don't you, and it gives you that kind of sense of warmth as well. Definitely. I love it that it's just kind of from Huddersfield to London to Palermo. I'm like, yeah, that's perfect. So, and you've also written another book called Being Simon Haynes. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yes, that was my first novel that was published 5 years ago, almost 5 years ago exactly. So it was, I think it was in June 5 years ago, and that was a novel about a young lawyer who was seeking to become a partner of an insolvent, you know, a boutique insolvency practice in London. And it was about his life with his girlfriend from that young age and how he got into a position where he, you know, was focused on making it as a partner and making his millions and sort of the sacrifices that he'd made emotionally, um, and otherwise. And, and also the sort of challenge to his relationship with Sophie, who's a, who's a teacher and so had a very different trajectory. And, um, it was interesting because that book, um, uh, really played very well with lots of lawyers in the city. I mean, it's amazing. Some, some of the messages I got were quite like touching, you know. There were some partners saying, like, I've read half of it and I've got to stop, it's just too painful. And it wasn't meant to be in any sense a novel against being a, the law. In fact, people who've read it have said indeed it's sort of supportive, it's nuanced, you know, and but it's sort of a deep dive into the psychology perhaps of young professionals who have got these huge aspirations but perhaps aren't clear on what their real path should be. And so sort of get caught up, as do so many professionals in London, get caught up in the, you know, in the sort of wild, wild working with them and connected wild nights. And I don't know if that's still the case, but certainly 10 years ago when I was, you know, in my late 20s, I saw so many people who were like that. And yeah, so I think it touched a nerve for a lot of people. Yeah, well, people like to read about things that are very similar to them but with a bit more of an in-depth perspective on the life, so I suppose, yeah, that probably touched quite a few bones there. Yeah, definitely. I just want to point out to our listeners they can pop on to tomvonmacaulay.com to find out a little bit more about you as well. What we didn't talk about is the other character who Lomax meets in Palermo. Now that was quite— because it's still— this book is set in 2016 to 2017, right? So it's not, you know, time gone by, it's particularly— it's modern day effectively. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about this character? Well, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? Because so Fifi Fifi de Angelis is someone who suffers from restricted growth. And, and, and so, you know, I, I mean, dwarfism is still a term, and I think dwarf can be a hurtful term now, but he's someone who suffers from restricted growth. He's been ostracized by his, by his own family due to something that's not unclear until the end of the novel. And, um, I, I personally felt that, you know, that's a classic example of, in, in today's society, of of people who do struggle and perhaps aren't afforded the amount of empathy that they should be. And so I felt it was important to, to, to explore Fifi's reality from perhaps a traditional family in Sicily, a slightly unenlightened family, and the sort of suffering that Fifi goes through, through, you know, through, through having this restricted growth all his life and the challenges he has. And I felt that that was a sort of, you know, I haven't checked how many books there are about people with restricted growth, but equally I think it was fairly novel for me to explore that area and hopefully with sensitivity. And, you know, I think it's, it's, it's this sort of, from Lomax's perspective, I've, you know, when you go abroad, you do always have these new experiences, don't you? It's strange, it's whether it's even a holiday or certainly going to live in an area, you end up seeing people or meeting people that you just don't— I don't know, things tend to happen for whatever reason. And well, you're open, you're more relaxed, you're not as busy. Yeah, you're not, you're not working and you're open to new experiences. Otherwise, why would you be going abroad anyway? Exactly. Which is, which it goes to definitely the heart of one of the things I believe, which hopefully comes out in the novel, that traveling does open your mind because or living abroad opens your mind. And because, you know, query, would Lomax have made friends with Fifi if they were both in England? You know, if Lomax was still doing his job in the City of London? I don't know. Hopefully he would. But I mean, I don't think he'd have had opportunities to meet Fifi, you know, a guy from a sort of slightly backward background from a town in Sicily— sorry, from a rough area. In Sicily, in a rough part of the town, let's say. So yeah, I think that hopefully Fifi's experience is explored with some sensitivity. I mean, it's— I think so. Yeah, and I think their friendship is perhaps one of the most touching parts of the novel ultimately. What kind of really did ring true throughout this book for me was with the main characters, they all seem to have in common struggles with, yeah, kind of fitting in and being understood. Yes. So sometimes that's all we need to have in common for us to find an affinity and a friendship with each other. I think that's a really, you know, insightful comment because that's exactly what I was trying to do. And, you know, you've got someone who's struggling with his, um, uh, being open to his father about his sexuality. You've got someone who's, um, got OCD, someone who's got restricted growth and has been bullied for it. And, and then you've got Lomax, who is, you know, perhaps your slightly annoying, you know, middle-class white male. It's sort of yawn, yawn. But actually, if you, if you go deeper into him, you feel— you see that he's struggling in his own way too. So hopefully, exactly as you say, that they're all united by this, um, you know, common theme of humanity, which is that, you know, there are challenges, and, and as, and, and, you know, and there's love and there's empathy. And I think there's hopefully, you know, it shows there's lots of love through friendship and otherwise, um, in the novel. And, um, so that's what I've really tried to do. I mean, obviously there was, you know, there is the theme of the impending murder, but, um, you know, apart— and hopefully that gives it, you know, the narrative a bit of impetus and thrust. And there's definitely a meta-fictional element to that, because clearly, you know, Lomax is also writing a whodunit. He has recurring nightmares about a murder in Palermo, and yet, you know, the reader knows there's going to be a murder in Palermo. There's these editorial interventions, so hopefully they come across as sort of, you know, charming, a bit witty, but still pushing you on. I definitely got the witticism, and I like the kind of the update from the author saying, "Bear with me, this is going to happen." Something is happening. Yes, thank you. But that's quite a unique kind of writing style. What gave you the idea for that? I just, I've always been very much into this metafiction, you know, so a book within a book, or a book writing about a book, or sort of turning in on itself. And I thought that we can't be too serious about a, you know, in other words, the book, the book explores some very serious themes. And so, yes, there is this sort of thrill to it. But if we're going to have this impetus with an upcoming murder, let's, let's make it reflect on itself. Let's make it self-reflective. And hopefully that adds humor and without deflecting from the sort of impetus of the novel. And I think that, yeah, if you're going to put these correspondence together, then clearly fictionally someone's done that. And so playing with that theme, um, this is sort of— hopefully it comes across as slightly exasperated at times from the editorial intervention saying, you know, 'If you haven't worked this out yet, then you never will,' and sort of things like that. And so I think that adds, um, to the comedic element, and I think that's been quite enjoyed by reviewers, uh, so far. And hopefully, you know, like I say, gives us sort of a sense of the metafictional, which I think has helped and that's something I've always loved, you know, going back from my university days, and I used to love the kind of the idea of a book within a book. Well, it kind of gave it that personable reality element to it. Yes. A kind of more narration, narration within narration, and no, I thoroughly loved it, I really, really enjoyed it, I've recommended it to quite a few of my friends, just because also I have a lot of friends that just say, "Oh, you read all the time, Hazel, how do you have the time?" But also like these books like this, you can stop and start so much easier. You don't have to commit to an immediate half an hour for a chapter because you know, the sections, some of them are seconds, minutes, you know, it's something that you really can pick up and get through. Yeah, very snappy. But because of that, you end up getting through it a lot quicker than what you thought you would. Yes, and I think what's important is that what I try to do, certainly with all the emails, Every email is a piece of work almost, you know, like, like, like, like really emails are, you know, it's, it's a standalone piece of text, which obviously is telling the story. And I think it flows quite like a normal narrative because you can see the flow, but join email, put it down and, you know, and carry on with the story when they, when they can. But yeah, I think it's important that they are all sort of self-contained pieces of work while all, while also allowing it to flow like a normal novel in terms of, you know, the reader following what's going on. Yes, completely. Now, are you a book fan yourself? Do you read a lot? Yes, yeah, I've always been an avid reader. Possibly less so at the moment while you have— Well, actually, I still manage to. Yeah, I still manage to, even late at night. I find that without sort of a day of reading, it's not the same. So I always might manage to get something in, even if I'm exhausted, just before falling asleep. It's quite important, I find. But yeah, I've always been, since a very young age, a big reader. Yeah, I've always been a huge reader, and like, I used to read to my toddler— well, my babies, like in Starbucks, because I was doing an Open University degree. And I think when I had my first child, I was still doing like cognitive psychology Elements, and I'd sit there just reading the text because they don't care what you're reading to them, they just want connection with mum or dad. Yes. And so I used to read all this text to them, but also, you know, middle of the night, you know, their dad would be like, oh, I don't want to get up. I'm like, oh, do you know what, I've got a chapter to finish, I'll do it. Oh, how funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's always ways around it, and there's so many ways that you can actually help. Have you got a favorite book at the moment? Um, oh, favorite book. So I think I did enjoy, um, very much recently— well, this is quite obscure actually, but it's called The Five, which is, um, which is a sort of non-fiction. It's in it and it's about the, um, it's a very sensitive book about the 5 otherwise unremarkable women who were victims of Jack the Ripper. And it doesn't tell anything about the the murder, but it just, it just tells their story, which I think is very topical because, you know, I think, you know, recently that, that's been a new focus, hasn't it? You know, like when these serial killers die in prison, you shouldn't really focus on them, it's more about the victims. And I thought it was amazing because it just told the— it was painfully researched and it just told the story very accurately. Of essentially these 5 women and their life stories. And it just, you know, and they were all struggling. And, you know, it's, it's quite helpful and, well, it's insightful to see how, you know, the lot of women in those days was obviously horrendous, especially poor women. And, but it was lovely to see their stories retold and given a sort of agency as opposed to them just being known as victims. Um, so I would highly, highly recommend that. It's, um, it's by, um, Haley Rubenhold. Yeah, I've just Googled it now because I've, um, I'm just putting it on my TBR list. Yeah, well, I really recommend it. Brilliant, brilliant. Um, so some of the questions I like to ask my guests here on Get Booked, um, are for 3 top tips on mental health and mental well-being. What 3 things do you kind of go-to to bring you around? I think without doubt physical exercise is fundamental, and I don't— I think now the science is sort of accepting of that, isn't it? So yeah, I think that regardless of one's— well, not regardless, because obviously if someone is in a seriously dark place, it probably wouldn't work, but I think if one is just feeling a bit stressed or whatever, um, you can actually almost feel the chemical balance change if you've gone for a— you know, I mean, I've just gone for a 20-length swim, for example, and after that, and I have a warm shower, I, I feel, um, pretty good about things. So I think that that is critical. I think that, um, socializing is important, but beyond socializing, I just think that during the pandemic, people were so hemmed into their own buildings, their own house, that getting out of the house together, going for a walk together, whether it's a family walk, a walk on your own, or with your partner, whatever, I think is very important. So I think leaving one's house is very important. Thirdly, what's my top tip for mental health? I would say, and I would say particularly as a man, because I think that men historically have struggled with this is opening up and talking about feelings and issues to close friends, to, you know, not to everybody, you know, putting on Facebook and stuff. But if you have a core— if you bring it on Facebook, it's a different thing altogether, isn't it? It's a different thing altogether, and you'll get lots of likes and whatever. But I think if you have— if you're lucky enough, and of course not everyone does, but if you're lucky enough to have absolutely core friends and, you know, and/or partner or whatever, to sort of explain to them how you're feeling can be amazing. And I think that, you know, men historically have not done that for whatever reason. Not all of them, but, you know, a lot of men don't. And I think that can be quite damaging. You know, it's the old-fashioned stiff upper lip and everything, which is admirable, but I think that It's damaging though. It can be damaging, and I think that's borne out sadly in some of the, you know, the more dark elements of people's struggles with mental health, you know, in middle age. And I'd say yes, I think that talking about one's feelings and not worrying about talking about them, because I think a lot of that is fear, you know, it's almost like it would cause some men more anxiety to do so than not, because to do so would think, yeah, being judged. And also, like, will this person tell someone else? And is my, you know, and I, I, about how I feel, and I, and that's a pride element. And, and actually, I think if you, if, if men, if people can overcome that, um, then that's important. But look, I, I've said men only because from my experience a lot of men aren't good at it, but obviously it's the same men and women and And I do think physical exercise is fundamental. I think it is a predominantly female thing to be able to discuss their issues. I mean, there's quite a few of us near where I live. We all go out for a walk. We call it a stomp, you know, we spend 45 minutes, we stomp with our dogs, we air everything, we go home and we're so much more easier to live with. We've aired it, it's done. And we have like some of the friends in the pub, they're like,— some of the guys go, 'Wait a minute, you get to do this and it's so unfair, we want to do it too,' but like they don't want to do it with other men, they just want to join in on our walk because they're happy to do it to other women but don't necessarily want to sit there just going, 'And another thing!' Yeah, yeah. It's, I mean, this is why we have women's radio station and men's radio station, because women do often need to deal with things slightly differently to men. So this is why you have the likes of Russ Kane who brings together the conversations men want to have, but directed by men because they understand possibly the, the routes that need to be taken to get the best and to get the sharing out there. Um, but yeah, no, I love that. And I must say, your second one as well, social interaction and socializing— there's a difference between the two, isn't there? There's sometimes people think, oh, I need to be out and be sociable No, you can just have a bit of social interaction, go to the café, local café, and just speak to the person as you're making a coffee. That does wonders. You don't necessarily have to meet up and chat for hours and hours to somebody when you can actually just strike up a conversation in Waterstones or Poundland, whatever you want, you know. Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I think that a lot of this, a lot of mental health issues can be connected to the sense of feeling trapped, you know, so even Leaving any enclosed area is clearly going to be good. I mean, you know, there's a reason why people in prison are allowed an hour outside, right? You know, because— and I think that, yeah, and I think that particularly during the pandemic, that was very tough on people. But I think that if one is super stressed and is trying to sort of overthink things, then often a walk outside, and as you say, a low-level social interaction like saying hello to a neighbor and walking on, or having a brief chat with the guy in the newsagents can make a big difference. Yeah, I mean, I'm regularly seen just having full-blown conversations with my dog. I think people think I'm crazy, but to be honest, they're probably correct. So yeah, they were absolutely great tips there. Thank you so much. Now, something else I do like to ask as well, because there's quite a lot of negativity out there, especially in the public eye, and people like to have a good old complain. Is there somebody in the public eye that you just think is fantastic, really good value? Oh, interesting question, someone in the public eye. So yeah, I think there are a few people I would, I have positive feelings about in the public eye. Positive feelings about, I love that, great terminology. Yeah, I think, well, one of them I'll be biased about, which is Jürgen Klopp, I think, is Liverpool manager. I think he's just so full of amazing, like, positive energy. And whether or not you like football, I mean, just listen to any interviews and he's always upbeat, he's always seeing the good things. And, um, hugely inspirational. I think so. I, I, I, I find him, uh, quite inspirational. So yes, so certainly Jürgen makes, makes the grade for me. Um, in terms of others I think it's tricky, isn't it? Because with journalists, a lot of the political journalism is essentially negative, isn't it? But I think that a journalist who is very sort of straight shooting and clear, like Emily Maitlis, I think is a positive person to look at in the public sphere and think that, you know, really doing their job with great integrity and cleverness. And less of an agenda as well. Yes, yeah, so I think those two stand out for me, you know, as being pretty special. Obviously there are hundreds more, but those are the two I would look to. That's brilliant, thank you. I must say, thank you so much for joining us here on Get Booked, the women's and men's radio station. I've thoroughly liked loved chatting to you. And listeners, go out and get a Countdown to a Killing. You can go and buy it now and go and check out Tom's other book on tomvonnmacaulay.com. Thank you for joining us. Will you come back on the show when you release your next book? Thank you so much, and absolutely I will. Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation. Brilliant. And thank you so much, and thank you everybody for listening to Get Booked. So Tom has very kindly said that we can read a couple of snippets from A Countdown to a Killing to kind of whet your appetite. So here goes. From Lomax Clipper, August 14th, 2016 at 11:48 to Kate Weatherden, a farewell to Italy. Buongiorno, Miss Weatherden.. I'm waiting to board for London Stansted. The plane is delayed and the air conditioning has transmogrified into a gigantic hairdryer. A Sicilian man is glaring at me, a look of abject fury on his face. Today's my 33rd birthday and all I really know is that the Sacrament is done and my 6 months in Italy are over. I woke this morning to the sound of seagulls, Aurora asleep beside me. Arriving at the airport a few hours later with my mood much changed, I joined the queue for security behind a flustered English couple. Impatient, entitled, London professional types. The man was hatefully tall and had a hatefully thick head of hair. The woman was blonde and sunburnt. I couldn't help but overhear them. He declared from on high that Sicily was a bit of a shithole. She agreed and added that the natives were like so third world. As I felt the stirrings of a cold white rage, she nudged him, raising her eyebrows at the elderly Sicilian couple who were queuing side by side with us trying to push in. He began to complain about about the heat. He said that he could use an Aperol Spritz despite it still being morning. She laughed and said, "Like I totally need one." She mused that there had better be a bar after security. Then she turned to me and asked whether I knew if there would be. "C'è cosa?" I said. She said that she was terribly sorry, that for some reason she'd assumed I was English. 'È?' I insisted. I felt suddenly euphoric, but it was a short-sighted move. 'A bar,' the man said earnestly. 'Is there a bar after security?' Further questions followed. My Italo-English became weird. My chest became tighter and tighter. When she asked whether there would be air conditioning once we got through, I did not reply. It was one question too many. Instead, as if in a half-sleeping dream, I took my mobile phone from my pocket and answered a timely call from my palomertan mama. I carried on speaking to her until the couple had stepped forward to go through security. Only when I ended the call did I notice the glare of the wicked old Sicilian men. What's that message to Mum? Sunday, August 14th, 2016. Translation from the original Chinese. Wen. Hi Mum, of course I ate the dumplings. Delicious as always. Please do not bring too much food up from Brighton today. There are nearly as many vegetables in this flat as there are in your shop. I didn't know Dad was coming too. You two never listen to me. He should be resting. I do worry. Also, he should not be exaggerating to all the customers about my new job. It's a good firm, but it's not true that I will make a fortune. See you later. Love you. From Lomax Clipper to Kate Weatherden, Sunday, August 14th, 2016, 12:51. A Farewell to Italy continued. It is increasingly hot hot here at the gate. A teenage girl has just pretended to faint, attracting much attention and sympathy. She too is now glaring at me. She knows that I alone saw through it. Where is the plane? they keep asking. The prospect of London, specifically the leaky roof of the flat on Romilly Road, Finsbury Park station at rush hour, and the firm of Curtin Curtin fills me me with nausea. I've had an idyllic long weekend with Aurora, the odd moment of tricky behaviour aside. It's strange to think that I was nervous about coming down here from Milan to see her on her home turf. I suppose I'd feared that by leaving Milan she might have broken the spell cast over our dreamy fortnight together. To think that we met at a communist protest that I'd thought was a street party. Anyway, it was lovely to know that the magic had held. She seemed pleased when she saw her aspiring writer here in Sicily, although I was mildly put out that she continued to chat on her phone for a good 10 minutes while I stood before her expectantly in a dreamy sunlit piazza. Incidentally, we did not talk about my job in Italy, the notarial your profession is prestigious, and Aurora does not approve. She is so startlingly beautiful, her communist dress code so extreme, and Palermo so exotic that standing here I had to blink. The Huddersfield boy had come a long way. We took the ferry on Friday afternoon to the island of Erstica. It's about 40 miles out from Palermo and quite exquisite. On Saturday evening, after a fine dinner that left Aurora conflicted and a little angry, we went to sit on a low seawall before the waves rolling back towards Palermo. Many of the men streaming past on scooters stuck out their chins at the olive-skinned, slender-waisted, voluptuous young woman in rags beside me while she texted away. After a while she stopped, lit a roll-up, and then wished whispered in lyrical Italian that the Sicilian soil was soaked with tears. As I nodded, understanding from this that I had been forgiven for dinner, I thought how she didn't look 30, and how her face really was so beautiful, that none of this felt quite possible or true. Indeed, for a moment I reflected on the unreality, noting too that it was strange, disturbing even, that her mood swings had become hardwired into my own emotional makeup. That she was able to conjure up happiness, erase the past, make me rationalise irrational behaviour on a whim. I concluded that it was no more complicated than that I was perhaps out of my depth, which reminded me how disappointing it was that my hair had begun to recede the day before my 33rd birthday. Birthday. I thought too how my life, absent this young woman that had fallen into it, was rather pathetic. How I only really had you and your husband back in London. I told Aurora about that and how things up in Huddersfield were equally depressing. How since his breakdown my dad had developed a hauntingly vacant stare. How my mother was beginning to say she missed Lil. I said that if I made it as a writer, I'd come back to live in Italy. Aurora replied that I was already a writer. Beginning to choke up, I told her that she was the first person to believe in me, leaving aside the woman to whom I emailed my novel. She nodded before letting out a sweet yawn. It was late. Oh, got to stop, we're boarding! Now a quick reminder of that fabulous writing competition. The Evening Standard announces the launch of its What's Your Story competition as part of the Stories Festival in association with Westfield London. The What's Your Story competition aims to discover a new generation of voices, to encourage and inspire creative talent. So make sure you share this among your writing community. The competition will be supported and judged by esteemed personalities from across the creative industries. The Evening Standard Stories Festival will be held in central London from the 22nd to the 24th of September, bringing to life today's most exciting narrative opportunities. From page to podcast, the multiplex to the metaverse, as we hear from publishing, screen, and audio creators. Expect intimate talks, panel discussions, and live event experiences, with the lineup being revealed over the summer. After a successful debut in 2021 that I did attend and thought was incredible, with such a range of contributors that saw thousands Thousands of Londoners join the brightest stars of page and screen for 3 days of talks, workshops, and award ceremonies. The Evening Standard Stories Festival is back, celebrating how stories connect us and the new ways in which we can connect with stories. This inclusive initiative gives a platform to upcoming and established voices and is guaranteed to get London talking. The What's Your Story? The Westfield London Film Competition, returning for its second year, gives a new generation of creators from the UK the chance to tell their stories in diverse forms and receive industry support. The competition is supported by Westfield London to discover, develop, and champion national talent. Applications opened on the 22nd of June for anyone with an original story about themselves and is ready to tell it in a fresh in a fresh and compelling way. This might be a story of childhood, of growing up, of the city, a story of the imagination, anything at all that's your story. This year, reflecting the vibrant array of narrative forms, entries can be written for the screen, the stage, or the page. Applicants can tell their story through dialogue, lyrics, poetry, or prose. Submissions can be written written or performed. Each entry must be either up to 1,000 words or a video of up to 2 minutes in length. As I said, the entries open on the 22nd and close on the 24th of July at 11:59 PM. There will be 2 initial longlisting processes before a shortlist is submitted to a final judging panel, and judges will select an overall winner winner and 2 runners-up. There's no fee to enter, and winning pieces will be performed live at the festival and published on standard.co.uk, as well as receiving a writing advice session with one of the judges. The panel of judges will be chaired by author and journalist Lottie Jeffs and includes Jessica Loveland, head of new writing at the BBC, Diblina Chakrabarti, vice president of MGM a founding member of the Holkahani, a collective of British fiction writers of South Asian origin. And Andrew Hunter, the scriptwriter and senior researcher for BBC Two's QI, who co-hosts the award-winning podcast No Such Thing As A Fish. As London's most iconic news brand, The Evening Standard has always played a role in shaping the creative life of the city. The What's Your Story competition and stories festival is aimed at encouraging creative talent and discovering new voices in the world's cultural capital. Pop on to Evening Standard to find out more about the competition, or you can check out the various links on my Twitter @nuttybutty. Good luck for all of you that enter. We are coming to the end of today's Get Booked show for women and Men's radio station. I'm Hazel Butterfield. I absolutely love doing this show, talking about anything and everything writing and reading related. I'm just going to squeeze in a little bit of a book review, a fantastic book that I read recently that's just been released by the incredible Kate Rae called Good Husbands. This book really does challenge perceptions of how we see certain types of assault, how a lack of aggression is deemed as not as clear-cut or straightforward rape. When three wives receive a letter from the daughter of a victim of rape claiming that all three of their husbands were involved, they have to decide how to respond. Do they confront their husbands, investigate behind their backs, or brush it under the carpet puppets to maintain the status quo. After all, it was so long ago. Does historical rape, when times were different and lines of acceptability were not as clear-cut, somehow make it less intentionally horrific? How blurred are the lines in reality, or is reality catching up with archaic morality? This book sends you on a journey with characters distorting right and wrong for their own survival, but ultimately we have to be able to live with our own decisions. Does one bad decision a monster make? Good books get you questioning yourself and what you would do in a similar situation, and this, this is a fantastic book. Just a bit of a reminder, that was Good Husbands by Kate Rea. I do like hearing from all of you that that get in touch on various methods, whether it's on Instagram @getbookedwrs or on my Twitter @nuttybutty. If you have a book that you've absolutely loved and you want to read out a maybe 1-minute review, you can send it to me on Twitter or to hazel@womensradiostation.com and we'll get it played out on Get Booked. Or if you're not too keen on reading it out, you can just send me your reviews and I'll give them a good old read. Let's, uh, share the love and let everybody know what they've been reading and how much you loved it. Thank you so much for listening to today's Get Booked. I've thoroughly enjoyed it, as I always do. Coming up in shows to come, we do have Perry Power who's going to be talking to us about his book Breaking the Silence. A selection of stories from everyday people who've been abused. It's going to be a very interesting interview where he is trying to get people to share, to help them own their own stories, to help them with their own mental health and mental well-being. We also have the incredible domestic noir author Amanda Robson. She's got her fourth book out and That's gonna be a very fun conversation. I'm hugely looking forward to speaking to her. I've just finished the book and I must say, uh, that was a fantastic one as well. As ever, please do pop onto hazelbutterfield.com where all my latest reviews are, and I make it nice and easy with some little links on there for you to, uh, get hold of whatever books you are interested in. Everybody, thank you so much for your time here on Get Booked. Enjoy the rest of your day, and I look forward to having you listen again.