Get Booked – Hannah Tovey Is This It 100521

Hello, this is Get Booked for Women's Radio Station, played daily at 5 PM and Tuesdays at 4 PM for Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield and I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing who they are, what they do and what inspires them, opening discussions and offering support via the incredible writing community out there. Come and join us, get involved, and if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on our SoundCloud. Now today we have Clare Tovey with the book Is This It? Now there is a line for a few of us between being a responsible grown-up and grabbing life by the horns and drinking tequila out of them. Ivy, the lead in this book, like myself, favors to use that line a little bit like a skipping rope. Is This It follows the very relatable Ivy scraping her way through life with lashings of swearing, dodgy dates, and hangovers, while also combining it with getting her act together, because as women do like to multitask. It's sharp, funny, and a character I'm sure many of us will identify with. Hannah, hi, thanks for joining us. Hi Hazel, excellent intro, I loved it. I like it, I do like the whole thing. I have been told many times that I use that kind of fine line as a skipping rope, and I think this is pretty much what this book is about. I think that's great. I think, look, I think it's really important to showcase characters, whether that's on TV or film or, um, in anything that you read, that are messy and complex. Because I think that's what's true to life. And I hope that, you know, you might not have done the antics that Ivy's done, but I hope that you can relate to the feeling that she feels of of, oh crap, I don't know what to do with my life. And yeah, hopefully that makes you kind of have a deeper connection with her because you relate to that, because it's real, because I'm writing from a place of realness. Yeah. Well, the thing is, the book is, the book is really funny. Yes, it's relatable, but also on an important note, I think so many people suffer with mental health and mental wellbeing issues because they think that they're not doing life properly. They think that they're not hitting their targets. They think that they're not behaving the way they're supposed to. And it's that kind of, "Oh, I feel bad about myself." And actually, I know most of my friends have done half the stuff in this book, you know? Between just me and a couple of friends, we've probably done every single one of them, you know? I think at one point my only real flaw flirty interaction throughout lockdown was a Tesco delivery man. That's amazing, we've all been there Hazel. I'm engaged and I've been there, so I mean don't worry about it. Now this book that we're talking about today, it is a standalone and yet it's still a follow-up to your first book, isn't it? Should we talk a little bit about the first book? Yeah, the first book, The Education of Ivy Edwards, came out last August in the height of lockdown, which is marvellous. It was actually— so it's— the best way to describe The Education of Ivy Edwards is to say that if Kevin and Stacey and Fleabag had a love child, this book would be it. It is a comedy set between South Wales and East London. And at the start of the book, Ivy really believes she has her life together. She has a job. It's not, you know, her dream career, but it's a job. It pays well. She lives with her fiancé, who she loves dearly. She has a loving, stable family. And at the very beginning of the book, her fiancé Jamie breaks up with her in quite a hilarious but brutal fashion, and she spirals. She spirals out of control. She does questionable things with questionable people. It's about what happens when the rug is pulled out from under you, when everything that you thought was real and stable and true is questioned.. And it is a comedy, but there are quite a few sort of more darker, serious moments in there, particularly when it comes to her family. There's a really important narrative there. But yeah, the best way to describe it: Cavanagh and Stacey meets Fleabag. Yeah. Do you know what? It's interesting because I think I was completely together when I was about 25. In between 30 and 35, I was pretty much a car crash. Um, and life does just go around. It's like, it's, it can be quite evolutionary. Like, I'm 25, had my first child, just about to have my second, bought a house, had a steady relationship, blah, blah, blah. Then it all ended at about 30, and you kind of move all these things around. And like, even now, even this week, you know, We can feel like we've got things together, we're running a house, we're raising children, we've got cats, dogs, friends, responsibilities, we do all the sensible things, booking holidays, managing, educating our kids and all everything that happens, and all it takes is just for a few things to happen, maybe a dodgy day, or you possibly have a bit of anxiety and you say something dodgy to a friend and you can spiral. You unravel so quickly, I know. And that can happen to any one of us in any situation. And yet, you know, paradoxically, you can have somebody who's not got anything together and they're perfectly fine, and then they manage their spirals. Everybody's different, everybody has their own challenges, and it can happen at any point, you know. I don't know if you've read, um, Tova Lee's, um, I'll Call It Fudged at 40. Um, And that's basically— she's got a few kids and married and holds a job, but, you know, she says that it's really normal to lose it every now and again and to suddenly decide, you know, to change everything, throw everything up in the air every now and again. Oh, that's just life. Yeah. Look, I mean, I think I have it together, but I lose myself, I'd say, every 24 hours. And I think that's absolutely fine. That's normal, particularly In lockdown, I had meltdown after meltdown, and I think I have quite a stable, happy life. But look, yeah, I'm very much prone to that. I think there's a price that we pay as women because we're told that we have to be, we have to be a certain way, we have to look a certain way, we have to behave a certain way, so we have to By the time we're 30, it is implied that by the time we're 30, we should have a job that is a career, and there's a career path, and that career path will be successful. We're told that we should be in a partnership that's loving and stable and on track to have children, particularly as a woman, that children element, that, you know, your purpose in life to to have children. You have to have achieved that by a certain age because otherwise what are you doing with your life? I just think that is so absolutely toxic. I think you should be— you can, you know, life is— you're constantly growing, you're constantly developing as a person, you're constantly learning new things about yourself. And I think this narrative of your 20s is for self-discovery, your 30s is you have everything together I really want to call that out because I think it's absolute crap and I don't think it's helpful. I think it puts a lot of weight on our shoulders, um, and then people question why then we spiral. When then we spiral because we're trying to be all these things to all these people. And Ivy particularly, like, um, with the second novel, she's trying to be— she's trying to start this new career, she's trying to be a new partner, she's trying to keep up with her friends, she's trying to be a loving family member. That's all relatable because I think we're all trying to do those things and it's really, really hard, and those pressures have a price, and I'm really interested in exploring that. What I find quite interesting is that, I mean, she was quite often torn with where her priorities would lie, especially with hanging out out with her friends that basically bring you together. We rely on our friends to be, you know, our support network. And yet there were times when she knew she needed to be up for the next day for her job. And she's like, but I really want to stay out and be with my friends. And this is that. Yeah. Constantly torn. I found like, especially during the pandemic, we haven't had to be torn because we've had these decisions taken away from us. We've been able to stay at home, get stuff done, spend less money. And yes, there are some horrible parts of the pandemic, but I know there's quite a few of my friends going, I'm a little bit annoyed that I'm getting more torn now because I haven't got the excuse to not go out. I haven't got the excuse to not do this, to not do that. You know, there's people that actually got so much more work done because there were either less hangovers or less going out or less dramas because we're not out and about. And yeah, absolutely. I think that's really made, for me, I think that's really made me reevaluate the time I spend outside of the house. I think what lockdown made me realize is a sort of— I'm very, very happy in my own company. That's not to say, that's not to say that I want more of my own company, but it was a real self-discovery that I am okay in my own company. I think I've always been that person who seeks other people to be around for whatever reason. I haven't worked that out, but I think, yeah, lockdown for me made me realize when I do go out, when I do spend that time and that money— gosh, even went to see a friend last night, popped in a shop beforehand, by the time I'd come home I spent £100. It's like, gosh, it really made— I haven't spent that much money in such a long time. It does make you realize the money and the value and the time that you're placing on things now, I think, has really changed. It's really made us yeah, re-evaluate that. I think it's interesting. I think what it is for me, we were saying a little bit off air before about what we have missed, and I think I get energised from being around people, whether I know them or not. I'm that person who speaks to a random stranger in the street and I can do it for, you know, quite some time, or just having random conversations. I mean, yeah, that might have something to do with being a radio presenter. I think it does, Nicola, I think it does. That's why you're so good at it. I get energized by it. I mean, one of the beautiful things is I do my shows on a Wednesday, and before lockdown this would be done in our studio in Covent Garden, and then feel energized and go and sit in a lovely bar, have a nice glass of fizz, read a book, and just soak in the atmosphere. I've spoken to people. That is the dream. And I loved it, and I really missed that. I mean, now, I mean I'm hoping that there's— I like to do Wine Wednesday, but I'm not going to do it on my own. No, it's very different on your own, isn't it? It's not, it's not fun. Yeah, no, it's not. And no matter what, the dog just does not get involved. She's not interested. Yeah, yeah. And the kids don't drink because they're too young. If anything, they just point at me and stare and go, oh, okay. That's what you said, um, before we started recording, but kind of that joy of— I really missed sitting, um, at a table. Yeah, or just, just having lunch on my own with a good book. I used to do that all the time. I loved it. It's my own time. It's just precious. Um, I can't wait to do more of that. I'm really excited about that. Well, I used to have a little bit of a routine that, I mean, every couple of weeks the kids go to their dad's, and I used to get their dad to drop me off at the local champagne bar, and I'd arrange to meet friends about 2 hours later. He'd pick them up at like quarter to 6, I'd be there at 6, and I'd be like, 'Half 7, 8, you can come and join me.' Oh, the dream! And it just, it was absolute heaven for me, and that, that is what I've really missed. And it's kind of, you can still absorb the atmosphere of what's going on around you. And yeah, but the thing is, it's just people watching as well. That's— I get a lot of my inspiration from people watching. You know, I've been known to be that creepy person in the park who's just sitting there staring at everybody, making notes. But I get real inspiration from that. I do, I do. Like, it's not like in the— you know, I'm trying to say that in a non-creepy way. I appreciate it comes out very, very stalkerish. As long as you're not taking pictures, I think you're all right. No, I'm not taking a picture. I just get a lot out of other people and I think that's something that I'm, yeah, really looking forward to. Even on the tube last night home I was like, oh, let's make some notes about like what he and she is wearing and kind of where do you think they're from and like what's their partner like. I love that, I miss that, so yeah, very much looking forward to doing that again. Yeah, but it is the whole thing, isn't it, of just absorbing what's going on around you, but I think ultimately the problem is whether we want to see people or not, the annoyance lies in not having that choice. Yeah, absolutely. And it's the same with Is This It? Is that she points out that sometimes we're not in charge of what's happening, and that's where, that's where the frustration's like, you know. If you didn't want to go out on a Friday and— or maybe you did want to go out on a Friday and no one was available, you'd be really, you know, quite down about it. But if you had about 6 or 7 people saying, hey, come out, you'd be like, yeah, I'm all right staying in. Because, you know, you've got the choice. You can make that choice about what you're doing. And quite often, and in reality, you know, certain choices are taken away from us because life happens to us. Yes, it does. I do, I do like— I don't want to let the listeners know how the story ends, but I do like that it wasn't predictable as well, which, like, I'm so glad you said that. Yeah, I didn't want to make it predictable at all. I wanted her to have a satisfying ending for the reader. I want— I think it's the first with The Education of Ivy Edwards as well. I wanted the reader to finish the book and think, I believe that that happened. And I think in book 1 it could have gone a different way, and I don't think readers would have been happy with it. And I think with book 2, I really hope that people will be satisfied with her ending. Even if you haven't read the, the first novel, you don't have to, but I feel like you'll be satisfied and hopefully empowered by her journey. Because I think she takes a big leap of faith on herself, and we can all relate to that, just throwing ourselves into the unknown and hoping for the best and trying really, really hard to be something. And life is throwing all these challenges at you, but you just got to pick yourself up at every hurdle and start again. And I think that's what she's very equipped at. Is doing that and trying to, yeah, trying to have that self-belief to make stuff happen. But it's, yeah, it's really hard. It's also funny, hopefully, to watch, to read about. Oh, I found it really funny, and it was about taking the leap of faith and taking chances on yourself. And if it had all turned out rosy, and it kind of would cut out maybe 2 or 3 chapters you know, and just gone straight to the last chapter, I think I'd have been like, "Oh, well, this doesn't seem that believable, da da da da," and I needed it to kind of be a bit more real, and it was. And that was the bit that, which, as I said before, it's very relatable, but we also want to know that something good can happen at the end, and we can take a leap of faith. But also, you know, it's— I like it when stories have that reality element, otherwise you're sitting there going, "Oh, Back to Instagram life, isn't it, where everything seems perfect? That's just not real, and I don't think— I actually think, I really hope, one of my hopes and dreams for anything that I ever create is that just people connect with it on a really personal level, and I think the more authentic and honest I can be about what is real and truthful to life, I think that's when people really connect with it. So I hope that I can always strive for that because I think that's really important. Now there's two questions that kind of need to go together. First of all, is asking you about the inspiration for the book and is this actually true to life? In any way? So I think, yeah, I mean, there's so much of it that's true to life, but I think that whatever I write, there'll be always elements taken from real life. Um, for me, I think I put a lot of, of myself in, in everything that I do. I don't think I'm afraid to be vulnerable, perhaps, and truthful. And I think Yeah, there is a lot of me in it. I think my very honest answer would be, you know, I started writing the character of Ivy when I was about 23, 24. I didn't have a story for her until I was 31. When I was 31, I went through a very serious breakup, life sort of fell apart, and that's when I knew, oh, I want to write about heartache, I want to write about loss, I want to write about love. That then solidified everything that I watch and everything I read about women on the emotional edge, women who are struggling, women who do not believe that they can be the person who inside they truly, truly, truly want to be. That's when it all sort of became crystal clear. I thought, aha, like, this all comes together now. I want to write about that. So in that respect, there's so much of my own fears and anxieties in the story, but also You know, I've been writing stories for 10 years now, so everything that I read with my friends, with my family, the stories we share, the people I meet, it's all in there. I'm constantly taking inspiration from real life, but I think there's a difference between putting your vulnerabilities on show and being authentic to being about me personally. I think, as I said earlier, like, it's just important for her realness to shine. And yeah, I just hope that's why people connect with her. I think they connect as well because when she actually started kind of self-sabotaging She's very self-sabotaging. Yes, absolutely. There was a couple of— when I read that, there was something that I was doing that was a little bit self-sabotaging, and I was like, oh, I'm so not unique. No, it's, you know, and I said, yeah, and I've been self-sabotaging in the past, and I think I probably will be in the future as well. I think we all are. Yeah, I genuinely, I would become quite, not upset, I would become a bit frustrated when very close friends of mine read The Education of Ivy Edwards and said, "Oh, that's you," or, "Oh, that sounds like your sister," or, "Oh, that's like your mum." For me, it implied, firstly, that I don't have an imagination, which just rubbed me up the wrong way and I got quite offensive about it. But also I think if you're thinking that throughout the novel that that is me in my life, I think it's going to really hinder your understanding and appreciation of the characters. I think absolutely there's me in her, like 100%, and any writer that says they aren't in their work I don't think is being very honest. But I think there's a massive— we have to seperate who we think the person is and actually what's on the page. Yeah, but saying that, I mean, I've stolen a lot of stuff from friends and family because my friends and family are hilarious and do stupid things, and, you know, they are— Me too. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I, you know, I steal a lot from them and I don't generally ask them if I can steal it. I just steal it and then hope that they don't mind. They haven't minded so far, so hopefully. Well, the good thing is, is that the only way they're going to find out is if they read the book, and if they read the book, it's great. Yeah, that's true, but that's true, keep those sales coming. Yeah, but has your mum read it and said, "I'm not like that"? The thing is with Ivy's mother Margaret, she's my favourite character. I know about 25 Margarets, if I'm being perfectly honest. I've grown up with a lot of Margarets around me. I think she's the most relatable character. I've had people on Instagram, yeah, message me and say, she's exactly like my mum, she's exactly like my auntie, and I love that. I love that she is painfully, horribly cringe at times but relatable in her silliness and her lack of self-awareness and just the stupid comments she comes out with. But I did have to tell my mum, I said, I've obviously used some of the ridiculous things that you have said over the years. Of course I have, because I've written everything. I write everything down. I don't think people realize I literally write everything down. At some point it will be used, only in a humorous way. Like, I don't write down painful things that happen to friends and family, but if it sparks humour in me, then I will absolutely write it down. And she's aware of that. Have you seen that thing that goes around? I think it's gone around on Instagram a few times, and there's various picture framing companies that have posters of it saying, 'You have entered a writer's household.' expect anything you say to be taken down and used in my favor. Absolutely, I 100% believe that. Yeah, I think I always— I love Nora Ephron said that everything is copy, and she was so spot on. I always use that line, like, everything in life is copy, write it down. She also said, what is the point of heartache if you can't turn it into humor? And I fundamentally live By that line, I think it's perfect. So yeah, do you know what though? It forms who we are. Um, yeah, it does. I'm writing a book and it's about, you know, mistakes that people make and whatnot. And I've had a few interesting and kind of horrible things that have happened, but I know, like, I've even put at the end of it, I've written it in different sections and it's about the whole counseling process of trying to figure out who we are and what happens and why certain things have happened. And I've put the end, but I won't take any of it back, because without some of these horrible things happening, you don't find out who your friends are. It doesn't form who you are now. Your path could have gone a completely different way, and you've got to be thankful for everything that you, you do have. But kind of sometimes the worst things that you go through, the more you find out about yourself and about the people who are around you. And absolutely make better decisions because you've made bad decisions. People who've never made any mistakes, they've got so much to learn. Absolutely. And you make mistakes throughout your whole life. Like, you are never a fully formed person. You're always growing. And I think we have to accept that within ourselves, that we will fuck up. We will absolutely make mistakes. But it's what we learn from that, I think, is what's really important. And that's what I think with Ivy, what's important, that yes, she makes a lot of mistakes, and some of them are hilarious, and some of them are incredibly cringeworthy, but she learns from those mistakes, and that's what I want to be empowering, that you can make colossal, colossally bad choices and still come out shining. I think that's important. But also, if you don't make mistakes or you never admit that you've made mistakes, then What does that say to your friends around you? I know people who aren't honest with certain friends because they think their lives are so perfect and that they'll feel embarrassed or feel like there's some sort of, you know, the bonkers friend who keeps on making, doing all these silly things, you know. And your life is so much more enriched if your friends feel like they can be more honest with you, maybe less judged. I think it goes back to just being honest and being real and authentic. I think that's really important. I think that's why Instagram is often so toxic. I've just read a novel by Emma Jane Unsworth. Oh, I love her. She's amazing. Adults is The one that I just read, the protagonist Jenny, who's obsessed with Instagram, and it has a really damaging effect on her mental health, her relationships, her outlook on life, just everything. And I think it's a really clever critique of our obsession with perfection, our obsession with putting on a facade on social media that, um, that isn't really you, that isn't, isn't authentic. I think being authentic is very hard, but I think people call you out for that now. I think people expect you to have a level of realness, and often on Instagram you are looking at these influencers with 2 million followers or whatever they have, and they're just you know, they look phenomenal, they have this phenomenal life, they're like traveling. You're like, you're not traveling, you're in a— it's COVID, like no one's allowed to travel. Stop posting photos of you on a beach, like nobody cares, people are dying. Like, I think now with people will call you out on that. Well, the thing is, I think you'll find a lot more influencers have put things up on Instagram about them traveling because they decided to go to Dubai, thought they were getting away with it, and then also we've got to make it look like we, we've actually justified this. And it was just, I think This Morning did it really well when there was someone saying, so you're an influencer and you're trying to show people how to get fit and healthy in the beach in Dubai? Because yeah, I think it's important to boost people's morale. Well, it's not. I'd argue it's absolutely not. Yeah, so I think it's got a little bit funny. Um, I do think, I mean, I read Adults and I thought it was fantastic. What I did do then Have you watched her film yet? No, I haven't watched it yet. Yes, I know it was on Film 4. I've recorded it, but I cannot wait to watch it. Yeah, it is brilliant. It's the curly-haired one from— Yes. What's the program? Too Broke? No. What's it called? I can't remember, but with the American program. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, that's going to really annoy me now. I can't remember the name of it. Anyway, it'll come to me eventually. But yeah, Animal Kingdom. So funny, I watched it, absolutely loved it. But yeah, she's got a real knack of— Emma-Jane Unsworth has a real knack of showing very complex, messy characters. I think she does that in a very, very beautiful way that makes you really connect with the character, even though Jenny is, I mean, mad, completely mad. She does things that are, I just think, are completely wild, I still connected with her quite strongly actually, and I think that is a testament to the writing. I think it's, yeah. And I think it's important because it's books like that and books like yours as well that kind of bring to the fore to not judge a book by its cover and to understand that we all have struggles and that, you know, Instagram is not the be-all and end-all. However, I have just found the— Arrested Development, it's the girl from Arrested Development. Well done. It would absolutely kill me if I didn't figure it out. Yeah, it would. I'd have just been sitting there going dooby dooby doo. Yeah. I love that programme. But yeah, no, it's very funny. And I did— is that the latest book you've read? The Emma James book? So I've read quite a few really good books recently. Perfect Timing by an author called Owen Nicholls, which is coming out I think it's coming out in May or June. We share the same agent at the Madeleine Milburn Agency, and Eoin's book Perfect Timing is modern romance at its best. I thought it was life-affirming and beautiful and a rom-com done in a very clever nuanced way, that really moved me. I'm reading, I'm just looking at my book pile next to me, I'm reading High Fidelity by Nick Hornby at the moment. Really? Yeah, so it's for research for my next book. I love the film, I'm obsessed with John Cusack, so I mean I'll watch John Cusack day in, day out. And his sister, his sister I think is fantastic as well. Oh, Joan, don't get me started Joan Hazel. We could be here for a while. I read High Fidelity. I read— what else did I read? I've read so much. I've had a really great year so far of reading. Oh, I read a book by Gemma Reeves called Victoria Park. That is 8 characters. It follows the lives of 8 characters who live in Victoria Park. Which is where I live, and I thought it was beautiful and incredibly moving. There's a narrative of an elderly couple and their love story, and it just moved me to tears. I thought that was gorgeous. I've read quite— yeah, I'm struggling now to think of more, but— I'm just having a look at Owen Nicholls as well at the moment because I like the idea. Owen Nicholls, yeah. Yes, it's just really, really— it's really funny as well. Is just really touching. That's the thing, I want funny things at the moment. Yes, absolutely. It's good to feel like you're enriching yourself as well, but you know, these fiction and funny books, they're good for the soul, they're a good distraction, but they're quite often based on a reality anyway that is still quite helpful. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And I'm just Owen needs to sort his Twitter out, he's got like 2 followers. Oh no. Yeah, we'll have a word with him, shall we? Have a word with him. And how supportive was your fiancé when you were writing your book? Was it okay, books? Yeah, he's, I mean— Was he worried he was going to get taken, anything he said was going to be taken and written down and used against him? Yeah. I think he accepts that now. He doesn't really have a choice. I ask Phil to read everything that I write now. When I first met him— so we've been together for now 3 years, we got engaged last year— and I didn't want him to read anything that I wrote. I was very nervous about it for whatever reason. And then he read The Education of Ivy Edwards and was howling with laughter. And it's not the sort of thing he would read on his own accord at all, but he gave me some— I was in the final editing stages of it, and he gave me just some amazing tips. I think just from a man's perspective was very interesting. I hadn't— my editor is a woman, her team are all female, my agent is a woman as well, and they are phenomenal, but I hadn't had a man read it, and it's interesting what kind of fresh perspective he adds to it. So he's been amazingly supportive like that, and also just amazingly supportive when I write. I need complete silence. I'm kind of a nightmare to live with in that sense, because he'll— he'd like want to put on the TV or listen to the radio, and we live in a one-bed flat, so there's not really much room to maneuver around the flat, and I'm like, "Phil, turn it down, I'm trying to write a scene!" And then he just has to go out for a long walk or a long cycle or a run or whatever, but he gives me a lot of inspiration, which is fantastic. But yeah, that support is absolutely there. Well, he just wants me to be happy, and with writing. It's the happiest that I've been in terms of any work that I'm creating. It just really fulfills me and brings me joy, and he can see that. So yeah, he's very supportive of that. I think, I mean, there was another reason why I asked that question, because I think it's quite evident. I mean, you've got this bright pink book with girl, with a woman sitting on the, on the letters, and it's like dating-ish, adult-ish, working-ish. You know, it comes across as kind of like chicklet. But I don't think it's female-centric. I think it's, it's kind of written slightly from like a tomboy perspective in a way. It's, it's, I think it's appealing to, to everybody. It's not just a girl sitting there going, oh my God, boys are poo. No, no, no, that's not Ivy. So I wonder, I mean, I don't know how much of that is you or whether that was his editing contribution, but it did feel like— Gosh, I don't know. I'll have to ask him that. I'm sure he'll say that's all him and he'll take the credit for that, but I will— Yeah, that's not true. We'll ask him and I'll come back to you. Yeah, that'd be really good. Yeah, I think I already know the answer. Well, exactly. And how difficult was it to get published? How long do you have, Hazel? I mean, I could be here for hours chatting about how difficult it was. I take it the second one was a little bit easier, but I suppose the first one's the issue, isn't it? So the first one, I joined Faber Academy in 2018 and I did the 6-month Writing a Novel course, which was completely life-changing for me, life-affirming, the best thing that I've ever done. Solidified in my mind that writing was the thing that would bring me joy, and absolutely I have to make this my career. And my tutor Richard Skinner on the course was very frank with, you know, the challenges of getting published, how long it takes, that the chances of people wanting to sign up to your work and all that stuff. And I thought, right, great, but that's not going to happen to me because my work is marvellous and everybody will be, you know, running to sign me up. Obviously that did not happen, Hazel. I think I've been told that the hardest part was to get an agent, and I got an agent really, really quickly. I was very fortunate in that respect. I came— we finished the Faber Academy in March, we did readings to agents in June, I got a couple of interests after that and signed up then with an agent 3 weeks later. So I felt very fortunate in that respect. Then it all became very, very difficult. So my agent sent out I've since changed, I've since changed my agent. So I, she sent out, my old agent this is, sent out the manuscript to editors in August. By October I'd had 10 rejections. They were very, half of them were very helpful because they'd taken the time to write quite constructive criticism which I thought was really helpful and also very generous of them because I think, you know, they reject things left, right, and centre. So I felt like I should take this feedback on board. But the decision was made to continue to send out the manuscript, so we continued to do that. And by December I'd had 23 rejections, and I then said to my agent, I can't possibly stand anymore. So I had to take a pause. Like, my mental health— I can't continue with this. 23 is so many, so much more than I thought I would ever get. And also what I didn't realize is if an editor from a publishing house rejects you that publishing house is closed to you because obviously you're working with one genre. So there'll be an editor from that genre. So the editor from women's fiction from that publishing house, if they reject you, then there's no other kind of editor in that group to go to. So you have to move on to the next house. Then there's only obviously a finite number of publishing houses to reach out to. So 23 was quite a high number. And I said to my agent at the time, look, we have I have to take a pause. I took 2 months out from writing. I didn't look at the manuscript. I didn't— obviously I thought about it every second of every day, but I just thought, I have to have some time out, this is killing me. And my confidence was at an all-time low. Like, I put so much pressure on myself that my first novel would be it. It would propel me into, into literary stardom. It would be a cultural icon, and it, you know, 6 months later, just having constant nos, and it just, yeah, it really, it made me not lose a huge— yeah, absolutely, yeah, it just made me lose a huge amount of confidence, and I felt so low for a long time, and that's why I feel at the time my fiancé was just like, you have to have have some space away, you have to take some time out. So I took a couple of months out and then I asked for the feedback. I asked my agent to send me all the feedback that had been sent. Um, not all 23 of those editors sent feedback, but a few did, as I mentioned earlier. So I printed them all out, I made extensive notes, and I got to work on the manuscript. And that took me another month or so. And then my agent sent it out again, and then I got an offer. Yeah. And then, yay! And then I, I said, let's wait. I think, I hope something else will come in. I just, I don't want to jump at the first thing. And then Payatka at Little Brown came, and I met the editor, Emma, and she blew me away, and I knew this was, this was what, um, I was waiting for. And, uh, yeah, I signed a 2-book deal then in May or June, so nearly a year later. Yes, nearly a year after signing an agent and 6 months of submitting and 23 nos. Yeah, I signed my 2-book contract with Little Brown, um, and that was amazing. And that was— I mean, I was, yeah, over the moon. And Ivy 1 had been basically written. There was a lot that, a lot that we adapted and built on, particularly did a lot more character work on the family and the backstory there. So that was a really fab process. The editing process with them, I just absolutely loved. It was Yeah, it was magic. And then book 2, I started writing and then lockdown happened, so it was a much trickier process. I found it very hard to find inspiration when the world is essentially falling apart, so that was much more challenging. And not go through it the same way that you did and use the same processes. I know a lot of people who have written books in lockdown who never thought they'd write a book, and people who were halfway through writing a book and they were already on the 6th, were like, not written a thing for the last year. It's been different for everybody. It's really, really hard. I, I tried to— Stephen King, um, in his, um, it's kind of a part memoir, part writing, um, uh, kind of know-how book, he says to write 1,000 words a day, and I have tried to do that, and I've been doing pretty well at it until lockdown, and that went out the window. I would write a sentence and I would just stare at that sentence for hours. I had no— I felt like my creativity was zapped from me, and I know they always say the second novel is always the hard one to, you know, it always provides new challenges, but I really found lockdown just— where on earth are you supposed to get your inspiration from? Well, look, there is a lot of negativity and it's hard to let your kind of imagination flow, but as you said, you know, like many people, you were in a one-bed flat with your partner, you can't just go to a café, and also I know that I felt this, and I know other people have as well, to get yourself in the headspace to actually write certain characters, sometimes it's not healthy if you've just got one other person about, you know. Exactly, exactly. Especially if you're writing tricky scenes, it can affect your mindset. Oh my gosh, totally, totally. I mean, I really I love Phil, and even I found him— I needed some space from him to just write, to have my own space. And there's nowhere to go. There's nowhere to go. And it's just, yeah, trying to find that headspace, to find the time to mentally switch off from— to stop worrying about your family. And, you know, my father lives in Hong Kong. I haven't seen him for 18 months because of COVID Constantly thinking, when am I going to see him? My grandfather, who I'm really close to, he's 87, he's so old and frail. I just, I worry about my family so much, and I just, I couldn't shut that out. I was so, yeah, I found it very, very hard to switch off from my anxieties and find headspace to write a story. I just, I found that very, very hard. Well, you know, you find ways, right? You've got to find ways, you've got to protect yourself. And then deal with the frustration of the fact that you're not possibly doing what you wanted on your timeline. Totally, totally. Yeah, I mean, there was me and my kids, and I, I know that I had to be careful about what I read, about what I wrote, because otherwise it would ignite certain things, and the only people to kind of take it out on, or to, you know, if it forms your mindset when you've just got the kids, you know. We've all had to deal with very similar sort of situations. Um, yeah. And something that I like to ask all of the guests here on Get Booked is what 3 tips on good mental health, good mental well-being, do you find works for you? Hmm, yoga for me has been transformational. Um, I have a stammer, I have I used to have a terrible stammer and used to not be in control of it. I'm much more in control of it now than I've ever been, which is a real positive. But yoga is all about taking a moment and centering yourself, breathing, connecting your mind to your breath, slowing down, centering. It's all about about just taking time out and connecting to your breath. And as a stammerer, all I do is think about my breath. I think about the next word, what breath I have to use to say that word properly. I change my words because my breath isn't working how I want it to work, and I can't produce the right words, so I have to start again. I'm constantly thinking about this. And yoga allows me to do that more mindfully, if that makes sense. Um, and completely, yeah. Do you not find that some of the tensions in your body and you think you're not feeling well, you feel lethargic, it's just a bit of yoga can kind of— it's a bit like a Ctrl+Alt+Delete, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I only started doing it— my sister's always been very into yoga, and I started doing it with her about 4 years ago, and I just, I of really— I love it so much. Yoga with Adriene is incredible. She's amazing, isn't she? And she's free. Yeah, she's free. And like, whenever she has Benji, I always make sure that Charlie, my beagle, is on board as well. And a few times I've sent her pictures going, tell Benji Charlie says hi. Oh, Benji's so cute. I just, yeah, I think taking a moment in the day to breathe and just to mindfully connect yourself with, with what's happening inside you, I think is really, really important. So yoga would be my top one. My second one would be— I used to have this terrible habit of I would wake up, I'd check my phone, I would read my WhatsApp, read my texts, and I'd reply right away. And about an hour later, I think, oh my God, what have I replied? Because I was half asleep. And sometimes I would look back at those messages and think, I didn't mean to say that. I've half read what he or she has said and I've missed an important comment or I've missed a question because I'm, I'm not mindfully reading it. I'm half asleep. I'm trying to rush my response. And that's a really, I think, anxious way to start the day where, A, you're not taking time for yourself, you're rushing into somebody else's life, you're not allowing, giving them the response that they deserve because you're half asleep. And so I really, I've stopped doing that, and I find that's helped massively. I, I wake up, I do not check my phone. I try to not check my phone 20 minutes, half an hour, it varies. But I really, I make a conscious effort, um, to not reach for it right away. And I think I found that that really helps start the day off on the right track. That's breaking, breaking bad habits, isn't it? Yeah, breaking bad habits. And lastly, I'd say reading before I go to bed, not watching telly up until the very moment I fall asleep. So I consciously now 10 o'clock, maybe even 9:30. I think the time I go to sleep— to into the bedroom is getting earlier and earlier, but I am old now, so I mean, that's how life works, right? But, um, I go to bed— I go to the bedroom 9:30 to 10, read my book, and that's a nice calming way to end the day. It gets you outside of your own head and into somebody else's wonderful story. And that's a lovely way to escape, even if you don't need to escape. I think that's, um, yeah, it's just to leap into someone else's story. So yeah, those would be my, my top 3. Um, the phone one is a work in progress, but the other 2 I'd say I'm pretty hot at. But yeah, the work one takes some work. I mean, I think all three are perfect and I try and do those. I think the second one is the one that I possibly need to work a little bit more on, you know. We all had to be on our phones a little bit more during the pandemic because it was our only way of having connectivity to people and it's breaking those habits now because we're trying to squeeze everything in and my nasty little iPad keeps on saying, you have spent so-and-so amount of time on your iPad this week. And I'm like, shut up, Apple. F off. I don't need to know. I already know. I'm acutely aware of it. Go away. No, I'm with you. My kids are pointing it out all the time already. I don't need you doing it as well. But there are lots of things. It's nice to know that, you know, this is why I like to share these tips. Because quite a few of us can then suddenly go, "Oh yeah, that's a good idea," or "Yeah, these are things that I definitely need to be looking at." I think Alexa just heard me say something then. Was that Alexa? She's listening, she's listening. Oh god. Well, to be honest, I think she's trying to tell me that my vintage light bulbs are on the way. Oh! It's ridiculous, it really is. I love that. We're coming to the end of end of today's show. We're running out of time, but very quickly— I know I've been tapped for ages, but you know, I've got to get Wine Wednesday going. I've got to get Wine Wednesday, Hazel, it's very important. So do I. Yeah, I was hoping to go to a little bar somewhere, but it looks like it's going to rain, and as lovely as it is that the bars are opening, sitting there with a glass of red while it's raining still doesn't float my boat. It's not the dream. It's also bloody cold. I went for a run this morning, it's so cold. It's, um, yeah, anyway, it's freezing. It is a bit chilly, um, but I need to, you know, figure out how I'm gonna make this happen for me because, you know, it's important. I mean, you know, alliteration is very important when you're choosing when to drink, and Wine Wednesday and Thirsty Thursday. Thirsty Thursday is is my all-time fave. Yes, Lush Saturday, Sloppy Sunday. Lush Saturday, I love that. And that makes sense because then you're Sloppy Sunday. Why haven't I heard of this before? I love that. I don't know, but you are welcome. Thank you. So my final question that I do like to ask is, because I think as we've talked about Instagram and whatnot and all these people out there that possibly aren't the most healthy people to follow, Who do you think out there at the moment is like gold dust? They're brilliant, they are, they're coming out with really positive things and they can be political, they can be, you know, famous, whatever, it can even be your next-door neighbour if you want and we'll all follow your neighbour on Instagram. And this is somebody on Instagram? Yeah, actually it doesn't have to be Instagram, it can be anything, I just use Instagram as an example of places where all these influencers seem to be sprouting. But just somebody who in the news they've always got something to say that you just think, you've nailed it, I like you. It can be anyone. You know who I love? You know who I love is Jodie Comer. I love her from Killing Eve. I think she's so authentic. I think whenever she's at an award show, she's there with her mum or her dad or her brother. Whenever she accepts an award She talks about the importance of family and roots, and she seems like a really real person. And on Instagram, I mean, she's so stunningly beautiful, but she doesn't post content that makes you think, oh God, this is just, you know, she's jet-setting around the world at Cannes Film Festival or whatever. She just seems like a normal person. I think and that is a really fine balance when you're that attractive, that talented, that successful, to then showcase yourself in a way that people still think you're relatable, I think is a real art form. So I would say her. She is from Liverpool as well, which I connect with northern people. Yeah, and I think if you say anything in a Liverpudlian accent, Yes, you can literally just, you know, read out your Tesco shopping list or other supermarkets that are available. Exactly. And it would do that quite perfectly. Yes, no, it would do. I'm also going to say Emma-Jane Unsworth because I think she's a working mum of two, hugely talented, hugely successful. She wrote a piece in The Times this week about the price she pays for being a working mum and how she's, you know, an eternal— she called herself an eternal party girl at heart. And I think she's very honest with the struggles it is to juggle her life being who she is and, yeah, being a mum and a successful writer and creator. So I would, I would say her as well. Yeah, authentic people. Yeah, well, that's the thing, isn't it? Because that kind of ties in quite nicely with Is This It? because it is all about being authentic. And I just want to point out to our listeners that they can pop onto hannatoby.com to find out more about Is This It? and yes, as well, and just buy the book. Get involved, buy the book, it's pre-order now. Follow me on Instagram @hannahclairetovey. Claire is without an I, it's not to be mistaken with the I. Hannah Claire Tovey on Instagram. And yes, Is This It is available to pre-order now. It will make you laugh and we all need some joy right now. Oh, I 100% agree. Yeah, it's not shameless at all, it's what you're here for. Thank you so much for joining us here. Hazel, thank you so much, I loved it. Thank you so much. And we'll look forward to seeing you hopefully in the studio when the third book is out.