Eva May, and I'm speaking to you from the Women's Radio Station for another in my Healing Image series. I'm really, really excited and pleased to have a wonderful guest with me today. It's somebody that I've had a conversation with before in the series, and it's somebody who, without having the trauma that happened to me, so abuse as a young child that went on for quite a few years, I would never have come across. So she's somebody who lives in the United States, and her name is Judge Rosemary Aquilina. And when I was watching Judge Rosemary Aquilina and the pace that she did into the abuse carried out by Dr. Larry Nassar to the United States gymnastics team, which was available for me to watch on through the internet directly into the court, I actually just felt the whole— like I was there, that I felt really understood understood and heard, and the whole emotion of what happened and the outcome of that case had an extremely profound and positive impact on me to see, um, the girls get that justice. So I'd really like to welcome, um, Judge Rosemary Aquilina. So thank you so much for talking to me today. Well, thank you for inviting me, and one day I hope to make it to the UK. I have met so many tremendous people from the UK, and so many have reached out, and I'm hoping at some point to come there and give you a hug and say hello in person. I would absolutely love that. So, I mean, I feel I know you quite well really, because not only are you a judge, but you actually do an awful lot of things. You're an author, And, um, you're— well, I've read all your books. Thank you. And I've enjoyed every single one. And what I do particularly like as well is that your font size is something I can read, because I quite often pick up a book and I know I'm not going to be able to get through that without a magnifying glass. But yours are— they're really great, and I would really recommend people to get them. The last one that I listened to, and I just, I loved it so much, was your audiobook called Just Watch Me. I've actually listened to it 3 times, and it's about 9 hours long, I think, the actual total recording. So I feel like I've spent 3 days with you, really. From the early days of your life right through to now. And, you know, with earphones in, listening to it in the car, because I usually like to sit in the back, the children like to hop in the front, and I'm like laughing out loud, and they're like, "What are you listening to?" And it's just the way you speak, what you talk about, your childhood, I can so like identify, and I think many people would— will identify it and everything you've done in your life. You are, you know, you're— I think you're a grandma, aren't you, as well? Are you a grandma? I am a grandmother. I have 3 grandchildren. And you know what's interesting about what you say is that, of course, I'm naturalized here. I was born in Munich and I have foreign parents. My dad's Maltese, my mother's German. But when we came to this country I always felt a little bit set apart from others because I said my words different, we ate different food and all of that. And here America is seen as this great country, but we're all really immigrants, but we treat each other not always kindly. But I learned so many great lessons from the European history that I have, the Maltese history and the German history, and it really gave me strength and backbone to be here and to stand up for myself as a woman because as Many people will look at America and say, well, you've come so far, you have this, you have that. Well, we have gone through a lot of changes and women are still not equal. We still are going through a lot of changes. And my whole life, I really credit those things that I had to go through, good and bad, that made me as a small child and into an adult say, just watch me whenever somebody said, no. And I still say it to this day, even as a judge, I'm told no. And I say, okay, just watch me, I'll do it anyway, you know. And I think that, uh, we all need to look at that internal voice that says, don't you dare put me down, I know I can do it. And then not wallow in the negative, but find your strength, your inner strength, and be your own superhero. And I think that really is a huge accomplishment that people should applaud themselves for. Absolutely. I mean, you, you've done— you've been part of the, the National Guard, um, you've had, you know, people suggest that it might not be a good idea, that's not going to work as a mom, and you've just done, just watch me, and achieved so many things. You went on to have your own, uh, law practice I think you were billing hours while you were giving birth to babies. So I mean, like, you didn't really stop, did you? No, you know what? I didn't have a choice. I've never had child support. I've had— I've been the support. I have 5 children. I've supported them. And I never had a chance to really take a breath and take a break. But what I've done is made sure that the things I do count, they matter, and that I can take some time with my kids. So if I have to do billable hours while I'm in birthing, in the birthing room, then I'm going to do that so that when my baby comes out I can spend some non-billable times with that baby. You know, it's all about planning and choices, and we all have them. Yeah, I do also think of you, you mentioned in your, in your audiobook, like, your morning routine because you've still got children to get to school. They're school age, your youngest, and and, um, the way that, you know, you have your, your kids and then your coffee and you've got your hairspray and you got your cowboy boots and then you're singing. Apparently it's bad, but I don't believe that. I'm sure it's pretty good. And I just have this like wonderful sort of sense of, you know, full-on going. Maybe the name you get your coffee, it gets caught, and then you put on the, the power of the robe and you're Judge, um, Rosemary Acrilina. And, um, yeah, I, I just love this sort of way, and it comes through in your books as well because the— some of your characters, they do really feel like you. Yes, well, actually All Rise is, is based on me. Um, the chief judge— I have had as a judge a lot of bullying. You know, no one is exempt from bullying, whether you're a child on a playground or you're in the workforce, or even if you wear a robe. And so the chief judge has not been nice to me. He has since retired, but there's other ones. And it's because, you know, I do things the way I see the law. Not that I do them incorrectly, but not every— I don't make everybody happy. It's not my job. Anyway, one day I got really mad at him, and I sat down and started to write All Rise. And it's about a judge who is bullied by the chief judge, and one day she has enough and she says, I'd rather be a hairdresser. So she leaves. And opens up a hair salon and coffee shop. My favorite thing, you know, coffee has to be in there. And her staff comes with her, and then of course, as she's opening the salon, the chief judge is murdered, so she gets arrested for the murder. And of course, we all know everything can be resolved in a hair salon, right? So it can turn ugly into beautiful very quickly. So we have a lot— it's a lot of fun. Her staff joins her, and some of the people she helped before the bench who she reformed come and join her, and it's a lot of fun. But for For me, it was that stress reliever of, you know, you can't kill someone, right, and get away with it. You just can't. But sometimes you're mad enough to say, geez, you know, you wish the awful. And so what I do is I use my pen and it immediately relieves me and I get a good laugh out of it. So you don't have to kill someone, you can just write about it and get relieved. Yeah, it's probably a lot safer. Yes, yeah, if you want to, uh, keep your life on the, uh, the equal path. So, um, no, I, I, I've really, really enjoyed your books, and I know you've got some, some more that you're, you know, currently working on. So how do you manage to sort of fit everything in? I think that every single human being needs time out to reboot. You know, we can, if our computers aren't working right, we turn them off, we turn them back on, and then they'll work right. I think we need to do that for ourselves. We need to take that time out to reboot. And so I reboot by cooking, writing, sewing, painting, spending time with my kids. My sister and I will walk the neighborhood. There's different things that I do to take a mini vacation that takes me away from the stressors of the day. And everyone can say, "Well, I don't have time for that." Well, I can tell you I'm very, very busy and I make the time. So when I'm stressed on a lunch hour, I will write a few lines in my novel. It might be 3 words, it might be 3 sentences, it could be 3 pages. When I can't sleep, I'll get up and write. Or I'm right now making bracelets because when I go to bed to unwind, I'll make a couple of bracelets and then I can go right to sleep. It really takes my brain out of the chaos of the day and says, "Let's settle in." let's reboot. And I think that's part of self-care and everybody should do that with something they truly enjoy. If you don't like writing, don't write. I mean, I have friends that think I do homework every day. For me, it's a love, right? I love my characters and so I love to write. So it's not a chore for me, it's a joy. So you really need to find something joyful for you to do and do that every single day to care for yourself. It will make you happier. It will help you reflect, and you do have the time for that. Everyone has the time for that. I think I totally, I totally agree. I mean, there have been not that long ago really, probably, you know, only like 6 years ago, where I wouldn't have agreed with that because I wasn't in the place to, to see that and to be able to access that. I've been through the police investigation into the abuse that happened to me. And I didn't— I don't know, well, nobody can actually prepare you for that. And I had a pretty massive breakdown. I lost my job that I've done for 20 years. I couldn't leave my house for about 4 years. So, but I needed— I hid it. I hid it from people a lot. So you know, it wasn't really like anyone could help, and I didn't really know what to do about it because it's not a situation that you actually get taught how to deal with it. Anyway, so, um, we decided to get a dog. Now, I've been brought up that we are cat people, you know, we're not dog people. Me too. It's like you can't go on holiday, they, you know, they're a Thai, they need this, they mess They, you know, they do all these things. They smell, they whatever, whatever. But oh my goodness, we got this dog and kids have all left home. I've got 3. And well, every morning, I mean, including today, um, well, I used to go out with her for a walk and that got me out of the house, is my dog. And Eventually, I used to have this little routine where we'd get up and we'd walk into town and I'd get a takeaway coffee and then turn around and go back home. So where I was getting my coffee from were people sitting down who also had dogs. So they'd talk to my dog and talk to me. And after a couple of weeks, they asked me to sit down and have a coffee with them. And I was like, "Really? Like, you want to talk to me?" This is— anyway, ever since that day, I meet that group of women who all met in that place just from walking their dogs in from wherever, and we have what we call morning briefing. So at 8:30 every morning, we all congregate, and I laugh so much, you know, it's just so special. And, you know, that is my, my time out. My— I listen to people, you know, they, they like me for who I am. They don't know, you know, they've never— they've only just met me in this way. I'm actually going to Greece with two of them on Tuesday, and, um, it's just terrific. One of them has got a child, and, uh, she's, she's absolutely adorable. And this morning she was so anxious for us all to arrive because she'd printed us out a quiz that had our names on, a selection of answers, and it was about reptiles. I don't know anything about reptiles, but I won the quiz. So then I stood up and I was like, I'd like to thank my family, you know, and, you know, just to go and have a good old laugh, no matter, you know, they've got things going on in their lives too. We all know that. We're all there for support, but we all recognize this. We as a group have this great benefit of getting together, talking, you know, not just sending a message on the phone, actual real conversation. And that's 7 days a week we do that. Yeah, that's, that's your time for self-care and healing, and laughter is that joy, that laughter is very healing for your soul. I've laughed so much, you know, that sometimes my coffee like spits out. I mean, it is just, you know, it's just great. And I would really encourage, um, you know, people, if you have been through trauma, like, uh, you know, maybe you can borrow a dog. My dog gives me this extra emotional support, I suppose. People talk to you when you've got a dog with you, and I go into the shop, I don't feel like I'm on my own. I can talk to her, nobody's going to think I'm completely, you know, daft. And we play. I mean, you know, she would play cricket in the garden all day, and I think it's that. So yes, that is my timeout. Um, I am actually also, um, writing a book, and like you say, I've got a pen by my bed, and if I wake up, then I, I might creep up with it and, and out and go downstairs because I need to put the light on. I can't write in the dark. Um, but yeah, I'm finding it more and more important to have these, these times. And also, I'm, you know, to make time with my, my children. Mine are, um, like 32, 28, and 24. Two of them live in Ireland, so that— and not near each other either, so that involves, you know, sort of traveling. And I, I'm really making sure now that, you know, family time is is very, very important. And I've got a few days off with my other daughter coming up, and, um, and we're going to go away and, uh, you know, and just spend some, some time together and have a bit of fun. So, and I think even, I don't know, it's— it just felt for so long that I would never get any joy or laughter in my life. And, and now I, I've got it, and it's, it's pure gold. So I can't get away from what happened to me, but I feel like it's adding this good stuff in, or these new experiences, these lovely people that I have met. And it's, instead of being a body full of trauma, I'm now taking in these new things and chucking some of that trauma out because there's no room for it now because things are coming. So, well, when trauma is left unattended, unanswered, unaccounted for, it just continues to grow. So what you're doing, I think, is taking this trauma and replacing it with that joy. There's some trauma I'm sure you've gone through and listeners have gone through that they're never going to get the answers that they want. I know I have victims speak to me all the time in court, and they're not going to get the answers they want from the abusers. And the, the I'm sorrys don't help because they're not often genuine. But when you answer them, when you fill your life with joy, when you find your strength, you're really stomping down on that trauma and saying, I'm here, I'm not going away, and I am okay. You're the one that's not okay, abuser. And and you're doing it in that group and with that dog. And that's really such a terrific story. It's, it's just the magnificence that you have inside of you that you've shared, that all the ladies are sharing. And it's growing because now, you know, what, what you're talking about isn't just about you and those ladies, but it's about sharing your joy in your life with your— now your family and your friends. And it's just that scope of pain that you felt is not only put down, but now you have a level of joy that has a rippling effect that is so positive in the universe. I suspect that your circle of friends and who you talk to and all the things you do now have escalated to positivity beyond what you ever thought. Absolutely, it really has. It's like an experience that I, I never thought I would get back or regain or go, you know, beyond to better things. When I, you know, I lost my job, I wasn't— well, the police did a really silly thing. Well, something that I'm quite angry about. They rocked up to my place of work in a marked police car to tell my boss that I was going through a police investigation and that it was meant to be for safeguarding and to support me. Well, all it did was cause a huge sort of gossip, what's going on, oh, you know, everybody wanting to know. And it was a private school, so there were some parents that saw this, their children, the whatever, whatever. And basically it was seen as a huge negative thing. And I'm very cross that they didn't email, write them a letter, phone, say they were coming, but turning up in a marked police car, you know, it turned everyone against me. And all those people I worked with, and I had done for 20 years, who I thought were my friends and my colleagues— they're not my friends. They went. You know, it was like I was shunned. And I think now things have moved on, but certainly then there were no policies in place to support people with ME. As a teacher, there were plenty of policies in place for safeguarding of children, but for safeguarding of, you know, somebody, a survivor of historic abuse, the conversation was something that was never going to happen. It didn't seem that there was a forum or place for it. It was— I think we've moved on, I hope we have, in the 6 years since then, because I think now companies do have policies, they do support staff, they do sort of refer people for sort of counseling and things like that. Certainly not, you know, situations where people are going to become But nobody wants to work when you're not popular. You can't. So yeah, and I've never gone back. I was it. I, I was totally broken and couldn't regain it. So this is why I'm doing, uh, speaking from the women's radio station. And at the age now, 56 years old, and having spent, what, 35 years in the mental health system as a service user, I think I shouldn't have been in it that long because it's only since October just gone, 2021, that I've now got to a specialist place for treatment for Dissociative Identity Disorder, which is what I have. And my treatment's predicted to last between 5 and 6 years. So I felt like I was almost like hanging on, you know, this waiting for, for this support. And, and I really want to raise awareness that, you know, complex PTSD, dissociative identity disorder, you have to have someone who's trained. I know in the States you have— it's recognized and people are trained. But talking to you earlier, you were saying that more people with this experience and in the profession are needed. And that's from what you're seeing as a judge. Yes. Oh yeah, especially with childhood trauma. And I think it was realized really with COVID because so much mental illness has come forward and there's just not— you have to wait months sometimes to get into a therapist, which hasn't been the case previously. However, in my 20 years of practice of law prior to taking the bench, I dealt with a lot of child abuse, neglect, family law, criminal behavior, a lot of different things. And even back then, I've been a judge, a civilian judge now for 18 years. So in the last, what, 40 years that I've been in practice, it's always been some shortage of trauma therapists, of people who are able to handle very specific types of trauma, because therapists are not— you can't just say, "I'm going to a therapist." And when you do that, it's like going to a general practitioner. If you have— if you need a surgery, you have to go see a surgeon. And it's the same thing with a therapist. You need a trauma therapist, someone who can deal with whatever the trauma is. And there's certain other kinds of trauma therapists. My twins were in a bus accident about a year and a half ago. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, they, well, they're okay, but the trauma of the bus driver not getting them assistance and all of that, and the injuries that they suffered were like soft tissue damage and those kinds of things, but it was the trauma of having to relive that, not feeling safe. And so one child is doing much better than the other, She has very high anxiety. There's all sorts of things that she's gone through. My son has gone through the anger phase, and so he's seeing a therapist for that. My daughter is seeing a therapist because of the anxiety that she feels, and she's doing what we call EMDR. Yes, you know, yeah, and, and that's really helping, but that's a totally different kind of trauma treatment than my son's going through, you know, because they Each child, you can go through the same situation and need different kinds of trauma. On the bench, I see a lot of the outpouring of crimes related to traumas that defendants have suffered. For example, they've lost their mother, their only support system. They never went through grief therapy, and there is such a thing as grief therapy, and they really needed it, and there was no one to support them. They just figured, you know, shoulder it on. Well, they're not. They're angry. And so what they do The anger comes out in criminality. And I can see it, even the way they walk, you know? And there's a special kind of therapy for that. There's cognitive behavioral to learn why you're making bad choices and to make better choices. So there's so many, and I don't know all the different types. That could be a whole other show, the various types of trauma and types of therapy. But there is somebody out there to help. But we do need many, many more trained, specific trauma therapists for various age groups, because children see things different than adults, and they have to be handled a little bit differently. But, you know, children grow into adults, and so you need to have those trauma therapists, and there just simply isn't enough here. And I understand in the UK— I've talked to a woman who I met again through the internet, but she She is now getting services and it took her 4 and a half years to get a therapist. She was on a waiting list and I could not believe it because she doesn't have any money and so she doesn't have any insurance. And so 4 and a half years she's waited and she's finally better and she's on the right meds. But she went through things that, you know, there were times I couldn't even talk to her 'cause she was just so out there and now she's grounded. But she really needed help and there was nobody. It— I mean, we have, you know, the United Kingdom, it's always very proud to say that we have this free healthcare for everybody, the National Health Service. Well, two of my children are doctors and they work in that service, and, um, We as a family have private healthcare, but mainly because my, my husband is self-employed. So, you know, with wait times, he can't afford to be off work. So, but we really do have a two-tier system. You know, you've got the private and you've got this other thing. And when it was realized that with my dissociative identity disorder, so for people, listeners who don't really understand what that is. And, and, you know, that would be great if nobody understood what it was because then it would mean nobody had had it, is, um, your, your body's normal reaction for survival is to fight, flight, or freeze in situations of harm or, or danger. But if you're a child and you're being abused by adults and you haven't got a choice in the matter and you don't actually know what's going on and, uh, it doesn't make sense, and they're also giving you like nice things as well, that your mind has to skip off. Because I, I say it is to feel like I'd go behind my eyes. And so I have several parts that, you know, through, through, um, the years that went on from the grooming through to the abuse and then the continuing it. And I always used to say to the children that I taught Even though I'm an adult, so I was just— I'm actually an adult is a child that just got a few more years. It's, it's not, you know, we still have that in there, in, in us. And, and when I was, uh, presenting with all these symptoms, physical symptoms, a lot of the time with the trauma, like, you know, I was a very low weight, um, and things like that. Yeah, um, like My bladder— your bladder is a muscle, it's called a detrusor muscle. Well, mine's gone. It doesn't— well, not that it's gone, it does not work anymore. So I think the stress for all those years, apparently, like, you know, it's just— it stopped working. It was just too tense. Now it's just gone. So I have to self-catheterize for my whole life. There are physical implications. But nobody turns up to your GP— we call it a GP, you know, your family doctor— and says, oh, I've got dissociative identity disorder, because that's— you don't know what it is you've got. It's— but one of the things— so it's taken me 33 years to get to the person I needed to. I came to America to a facility in Arizona, and I was there for 70 days, and they recognized complex PTSD and DID, and they put me on medication. And I'm still on that medication 7 years on, and there's absolutely no consultant psychiatrist that we can find in the UK, even though I've got private funding for it. To review my medication. I mean, you know, it's crazy that there's plenty of research out there for trauma. The other thing that I must say, Rosemary, I don't know if you've had experience of people going to this, is equine therapy. Yes, it's, it's becoming more popular here and it's doing a tremendous job. And what has happened with the equine therapy here is it has been proven, especially in children, but those with suicidal ideation. It really stops that. It helps them. They identify with the horses. And more and more of those are popping up and they are helping. The service animals, the dog, I'm sure that your dog serves as a service animal for you. We use them in the court. There's some case law that has come that in front of a jury with an adult, you can't use the service animal because it might give them a sympathy kind of thing. Hopefully that will be overturned because I've seen it in court and we do, especially with children, we have trained service dogs, um, and it allows the children to feel more comfortable to testify because without that, without that support dog, and they'll have a support person as well, but I don't know that they would be able to tell their story. And the equine therapy, um, what I understand is that those horses are not just making people calmer, but they're saving lives. Yeah, I would, I would totally agree. I, I did a lot. The first experience I had was when I was in Arizona, and I was there for 70 days, and there was a barn there. And what I got from the horse— because you don't have to talk, well, you can't, they can't talk back to you. So there is this connection, and it gives us an incredible shift, and I went to a facility in, in the UK that I read about, um, and there was a herd of 4— 2 horses, a miniature horse, and an alpaca. And I had 2 sessions with them separately, like 10 days apart. And the first session, 2 of the horses like came and sat down either side of me, and they don't do that. If they don't feel safe, because the, you know, they're, they're a prey animal, and for them to suddenly get up, it's actually, you know, quite— they can't get away very quickly. And both of them started to roll, one either side of me, and I was like, I'm gonna get like kicked here, this is not looking good. Well, one rolled into my back and the other one, a miniature horse, His head was in my lap, and it was just this most incredible thing. And we must have been like that for about 20 minutes. And it does— they don't know anything about you, um, you know. No, they do. They felt your pain. The reason they did that, they felt your pain. They laid in you and said, let me take your pain. And it was almost like I needed to be held and I needed to hold because that's what I never got. The next time I went, Mr. Alpaca, he didn't actually give me a single look. He was just like, I'm not interested in you. Well, the next time they said it was incredible. He went and sat by the side of the field away from the rest of the herd. I've never touched an alpaca in my life. I went over, I didn't know like how to approach him. But he was sitting there waiting for something, and his big strong neck and his head was under my chin, and I had my arms around that neck and my face in his head, which smelled like sweet almonds, and it was so soft. And we just held each other for about half an hour, and I can't, I can't tell you Like, I really wish that this has to really be taken seriously. And, um, you know, the healing in that— I have— I still have that in me. I have it in me, and it's so difficult to explain, but it was incredible. And, um, I, I, I'm receptive to anything as long as it's not dangerous that's going to help me. And I would really— I think that, you know, these things are definitely good. Um, so I'm glad that they're popping up. I mean, I even came home and was looking up online to see if I could get an alpaca. My husband was just like, no, I don't think we can have one in the house. But yeah, It would be a good addition, or that one would. Anyway, one thing I wanted to ask you, because there's always people, you know, wanting to talk and to help from their experiences, really, about how can we as a society Worldwide support children that we don't know what's going to happen to these children. If something does happen to them, how and, and like what age and in what way, uh, what scenarios do you give them? What do you— if they feel that something's not right, because I certainly felt that something was not right. But, you know, these people were friends of the family, so it was not something that I could do anything about. And I don't know what could have been different. I don't know. Yeah, I don't have all the answers, but I, you know, I've learned a lot, and it's very complicated. We need to change Hopefully this generation and the next and the next will get better. But I think first and foremost, we need to listen to children and believe them. It is not our job, if there is a crime committed, it is not our job to just make that call, you know. And it does not matter if they have skinned their knee and they fell off their bike or if someone pushed them. First and foremost, you need to ask them what has happened, right? Why are they upset? And then figure out, did they fall off their bike or did someone push them? But they're only going to do that based on your reaction. So a complaint is only as valid as the person listening. It takes action to give validity and voice to whoever's complaining. But first you have to listen. That's why I always ask open-ended questions. You know, what would you like me to know? What happened? You don't say, why are you crying? Because why immediately freezes someone, because now they have to explain what is perceived as their bad behavior, which is pain, and that's wrong. So first and foremost, And I've always done this, I think intuitively, with my children, but now I go around the world and really talk about this, and I know other groups, and not because of me, but because I think it's just the right thing to do, but is to have a safe person. Everybody should have a safe person, and you should all teach your children that there are safe people, and not just one, but there are some groups that say you should give your children 5 safe people. My— children, I said to them— and I've talked to groups of thousands where I say, raise your hand if you've told your parents the truth about everything. Not one hand has been raised. And I say, me too. No one tells their parents everything, right? So what you need to do— and I knew that intuitively because I didn't tell my parents everything, and not that I was a bad kid, but I knew that, and I wanted my children to have a place where they could go. So I trust my siblings And I said, if there's ever anything you can't tell me, you can tell Uncle Joe or Uncle Tom or Aunt Helen, and they will get you help, and they will not break your trust. They don't have to tell me. And so whether it is one person or three people or five people, you need to tell your children, these are your safe people. When you have an issue you can't bring to me or to someone else, and they're there, these are the people you can tell. And No one keeps secrets, we keep surprises. So if anybody tells you a secret— Yeah, I'm— You need to tell your safe person. If you can't tell me, you tell your safe person. Trust your gut, tell your safe person. And then they will help you or tell you if that's something good or bad. And then what you need to do is to test that out. So have someone tell the child a secret, not a bad secret, but a secret. And then that child should be able to tell one of those safe people so that you test it out, kind of like any product. You know, you go through product testing. Well, let's go through people testing to make sure that that child understands what we're doing here, that we don't keep secrets, and you tell that to your safe person, regardless of if it's a secret someone wants you to keep, or if you're just not feeling right about something, whatever it is, you can go to that safe person. If we teach our children this and really honor their privacy, we're going to get a lot more information, we're going to have a safer community, a safer world, because if someone approaches them on the internet and you've been saying, "You're on the TV too, you watch too much TV, you're on the internet too long, you're on your computer or iPad, your phone too long," they're not gonna say, "Oh, and now this creep contacted me," because you're gonna say, "Well, I told you so." And that, or at least that's what they think you're gonna say, right? So if they have a safe person to go to, that safe person's going to say, "Let's report that person to the police, and you did the right thing, and thank you for telling me," and really take that action. And we all just need to be very careful that we're not turning the people we love into silenced victims who are not valued, because ultimately that's what happens when you shut someone down and when you don't listen and get them help. I, I actually, you know, now you said that, it— I feel like I should have thought of that. That is absolutely— because the conversations are good. That's why what you're doing is you're spreading the in the world. That's why these conversations are fabulous. So thank you. Person— have some safe people. I think that's absolutely fantastic because as to all— you're like, you're giving permission for that. It's absolutely fine, you can do that, and they'll discuss it. But we have like— in— from what I read on the— in the paper and on the internet, there's, you know, people are saying, oh, this sort thing is something that should be done in schools, and I'm not sure that that's right for teachers to take responsibility on how to deal with a whole class of children. And what age and whatever, you know, how you deal with that. But if you know, you know your own kids, and you know, it's always said that parents are a child's first and foremost educator. Then what you said is actually something I wish I thought of a long time ago. Great. Yeah. Well, I think we need to have conversations in schools about good touching and bad touching. Not everybody has good parents, right? So I think that the conversations in schools— the, the trained counselors should be in every school, whether they're private or public. And, you know, we have bad teachers too. We have bad teachers and doctors and lawyers in every you know, line of work has its bad people, but overall teachers are there to help. And if we can teach our children that it's okay to have these conversations and what the right body parts are, you know, penis and vagina, we shouldn't shy away from that. Because if you're using the wrong body part at home, you're calling a penis or a vagina something else. Someone else doesn't know what you're calling it. So when a child uses that, then they're not, they're not being able to tell their story truthfully. They call it like petal or something. You can't— yeah, and, and, and, yeah, name body parts. Exactly. Yeah, so educators do have a role here. Families, parents have a responsibility. Obviously they have a constitutionally protected right to raise their child and all of those things, but what happens when you have parents who fail? There has to be schools and churches and neighbors, the whole community, to raise that child and get that child help. Because when we turn a blind eye and say, "Not my problem," it's all of our problem because that child grows up behind bars or, you know, to be a predator and cause other people pain, or that child commits suicide. There's just no good outcome. But when we can join together, partner together in conversation and in safety, we save lives and the next generation is then protected. It's going to take multiple generations to fix the problems that we have. I think so, absolutely. Um, but no, that is— I think that's really helpful advice, um, to have those, um, safe people that— yeah, absolutely. And, uh, I think, yeah, and to trust your gut and, and, and to honor that, and then to say thank you for telling me. I mean, that That is such a good thing. And I know you're, you know, you say why questions in your book, you know, they belong with the scientists. Yes. Yeah. So let's explain that. So I believe that why shames and blames when you— and everybody should think about it in their own life. When I came home from school and, you know, we had dinner and then I still had homework, my parents would say, well, why didn't you do it when you came home from school? And of course you give the short answer and you get out of there because you know now you're in trouble. Why to me, shames and blames, it belongs in science. Why do we have COVID? Why do we have cancer? And they should, you know, look then at getting those answers. But when you want to deal with a human being, you know, what would you like me to know? What happened? How can I help? It's like the kid who fell off the bike. Why did you fall? You know, why are you crying? They're just saying, well, you know, I got hurt and they're shying away. But when you say, you know, what happened? What would you like me to know? How can I help? That child is saying, you know, my bike is broken. I skinned my knee. I need, you know, and they're telling you they need some help, and then you're comforting them, and that builds a bridge of trust. When you ask why, it really knocks down the stairs to the bridge of trust. You don't even get to the bridge. You just— you are working on faulty stairs, and you never build a road of trust. No, I think absolutely. And I know you're— you say in court, and you say, you know, I've read it in your books and heard you saying, you know, What would you like me to know? Right. And what, what can I do to help? What do you think? What do you— what can I do? What would you like me to know and how can I help? And I say that to victims. I also say it to defendants because it is the backstory, like your backstory. What brought you here? What brings me here? What brings a victim to court? What brings a defendant to court? What happened that what was so awful in their life they had to harm another human being. And when I can figure out the backstory, it really helps me to hear the victim and to do right by them, but also to help thrust them or put them into thriver mode, survivor and thriver mode. If I can do that, use the power of the robe to say, you know, you matter, this is not your fault. But then as to the defendant, to say, you know, this drug addiction, alcohol, your mother dying, all of these things. We're going to get you some help and some treatment because you weren't born to do this. You were born to greatness. This is just a little side road. You know, and you can't do that with every defendant. Some defendants belong in prison, but when we can rehabilitate, that is the greatest gift because that person then is brought back to society feeling that they've been valued, feeling that they've been heard, and they're not going to commit another crime. They're going to wake up and say, "I can do better." When we don't hear them, when we don't properly respond and treat them because we know the backstory, then they feel like they haven't been heard and they go to prison angry or they do probation angry, they fail, and then of course they commit another crime against all of us because of that anger. So the backstory in every person's life, whether they're in a courtroom, in a classroom, or in your home, the backstory is so important and you're only going to get it if you say, "What would you like me to know and how can I—" help. And, you know, I've had countless attorneys, um, prosecutors, defense counsel, and other people say to me, can I talk to you, you know, after a case? And they'll come up and say, I can't believe the amount of information you got out of my daughter, my son, or my client. They never told me that, even though I live with them, even though I've met with them several times. And I say, because you have to ask the open-ended questions so that they can tell you what they need you to hear, and then you can provide the help. And sometimes the help is just listening and understanding so they can even get their story out. Yeah, no, I think that's— you, you certainly just have such a great way of explaining things so clearly. I think, I, I think, you know, with complex trauma, um, there's, there's so much that sort of goes around in your head that you can get a little bit confused. I, I get, I get myself quite confused at times, and, and then I can get overwhelmed. So then I need to sit back, look at what's wrong, and almost ask those questions of myself, because there's a little child in me that was really hurt and didn't get heard. So I'm the person really now that, you know, apart from my therapist, that has to hear that. And, um, can I, can I just, can we just discuss, we haven't, uh, this has gone so quickly, this is, uh, it's annoying really how quickly it's gone. Um, could we please talk about, I, I know, um, but I've spoken about it with you briefly, uh, prior to recording about this, um, case in America that's now a Netflix documentary called Our Father, where there was a fertility doctor who has, um, who was providing like donor sperm for, for women so they become pregnant, and over a very long time. And now it turns out that he was using his own and his own sperm to impregnate these women. So you've now got, I think it's over 90 that are known about, people who he is the biological father to. And they also have, um, they had a sense they didn't fit in. Maybe they asked for like a the ancestry kit, they have, you know, blonde hair, blue eyes, which other members of their family don't have. And all this has come out, and there's nothing that really could be done about it for them as a group to prosecute him. And the judge that he saw was Was it the Attorney General you said you have? Yes. Yeah, he made a statement to them and he lied, so they were able to take him to court on that only, and not even these children who have now got health issues as well, because he would never have passed the donor screening test with the, the sort of genetic things that he had, um, that, you know, that there's no, um claim for compensation for on medical grounds? Or what about child maintenance? I mean, you know, they were his, and these people have paid to bring them all out, 90 of them. He got a £500 fine, told that he got no previous, and the jails are full, so he went home. Well, that I think is unconscionable. It's— what he did was really an unimaginable breach of trust Violation of law, violation of ethics, so many violations. And when we have in vitro fertilization, IVF, and you have a doctor-patient relationship, that should be one that's trusted. But moreover, even though science has said we can do this, we really need to have the legislature step up and say, and if you breach this, here's what will happen. And so that is the missing link. And as Far as America is, I think ahead of many countries in our laws and the way we handle things. And in some instances, I think we're behind. It just depends on the topic. We are behind on following up with technology changes, science changes, and the law, because it's just not a sexy thing for the legislature to say, "And we're going to, if you violate this, we're going to impose XYZ." So it doesn't make good headlines or votes for our legislature. And I think that they really need to look at cases like this and say, yes, if you breach this trust, we will— even though that's not your child, you will pay support. You will carry malpractice insurance for this. You will pay for the bad outcome. And then delineate what it is, because we're, you know, we're not God. We're not able to say, okay, you're going to have a healthy baby in every instance. But for him to use his own sperm and violate the trust of the patient, he should be responsible for all the fallout, the medical bills and all of that. And for that judge to not give him a meaningful sentence really means, "Well, yeah, this was nothing. You know, you're just women who got impregnated through science. You should just be happy for what you got." Well, I'm sure they love their children, and I'm sure the children are happy to be alive, but on the other hand, at what expense? And why isn't this pain, grief, and violation recognized? It's really re-violating all the victims and the children over and over and over again, and not saying to the world, "This won't happen again." It's really licensed to have it happen over and over and over again. Well, what— one of the siblings, she, she as a, you know, as an adult woman, was also seeing him as her gynecologist, who was, you know, obviously doing examinations on her and whatever. And he's her dad, but she didn't know that. I mean, how— now she does, but, uh, you know, when she, when she speaks, you just, you know, she pauses and you can just feel there's something there, you know what it is, but there's not really words because sometimes things do happen that it's just a silent feeling that speaks volumes. Yeah, she's re-victimized in, in more ways. She can't even cope, probably. No, no, absolutely. Like, oh goodness. Well, I just wish them, you know, all the best. And, um, I mean, one thing that did come across was You know, they all sort of got thrown together and, you know, they have a support of having siblings and I hope that they can get some positive sort of support by having each other and they're not the only person in that situation and unfortunately I don't think they're going to be lost, and people seem to be in positions of trust, and they like to go and completely break that, um, which really isn't acceptable. We've only got like 4 minutes left. Well, I'll just have to come out again. It's so much fun. Yes, I would really like you to come on again, and you need to come to the UK. Have you ever been here? I have not, but I, uh, I truly want to come, and I, I have met so many wonderful people. I'm excited to, uh, to embark on that adventure when I can. I think, I think you, you really must, because, um, I, I've had quite a lot of friends from the States come here and visit, and we're not far from London, and they go to London and, you know, they love all our old buildings and our history and all of that sort of thing. And there's just— I enjoy showing it, showing my country off to people. And, um, yeah, it's fun, it's nice. I think— I mean, it's raining today, that's like the weather's a little bit mm-hmm, but yesterday it was so hot. But yeah, that would be amazing, absolutely fantastic to have you over here one day. And, uh, yeah, we could maybe record like in the same room. That would be terrific. That would be fun. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, as to your story, I think, uh, I want you to think about this. You reflect on so much, and I really am honored that you've shared your journey. But as you share each little morsel, I think you should take pride that you reflect, you've learned something, and every time someone learns something, it means something has changed. And for you, something has changed each and every time you talk about what happened to you, you share your story, and it's a positive change. And I think that people should learn from you as the example that it's important to talk about what happened with someone who believes and listens, to share your story, and really to be kind to yourself and take a break to do that and find the joy. And you've done that. I haven't. And in— I thank you for saying that. And, you know, to be perfectly honest, having a connection with you through— or what is it, 4 or 5 years now, I think? Yeah, something like that. You've, you've really given me something, and I know that's not just to me. Um, you've given something to probably thousands of people who, you know, like me, you've not actually met face to face. And well, you know, yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. Yeah, you're an amazing woman, and, um, so are you. And I am going to look forward to walking with you and your dog to the ladies group and having that coffee, because you know, my favorite all-time thing. They would love you so much. They would honestly— and we also have, um, there's one guy and he's, uh, he's a bit— he's quite a bit younger than us, like kind of like 15, 20 years younger, but he's like our IT specialist, our, um, I've got a plumbing problem specialist. So, uh, and he's the one with the lovely daughter. So yeah, you'll need to study up on reptiles because I won the quiz today. Yes, well, like you, I am a cat person but have two dogs. I don't know how that happened, but, uh, the dogs have been a godsend to my father who has Parkinson's. And so I will be thinking of you when I see my dogs. I'll be thinking of you and picturing you walking to get coffee, and I will grab a cup myself. Oh, great. Well, that's so lovely.