Love Lessons LIVE – Episode 1

Hello, I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons. This is the show on women's radio station where we talk about everything, everything from dating relationships to breakups and divorce and starting over again. I'm here with the wonderful Tracey Rodford today from Grosvenor Law. Welcome. Hello. Hi, Sarah. Tracey's here today to talk to us about divorce, National Divorce Day, which is tomorrow, but, you know, it's Blue Monday, people might be thinking about it today and we're going to be talking about divorcing with dignity. So welcome, Tracey. Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Thanks for having me on. Thank you so much for coming in here today. Now, Tracey, tell me a little bit about you, your career, what you do and your company. Thank you. Well, I'm a solicitor, a matrimonial specialist at a company in the West End law firm called Grosvenor Law. We do a number of different forms of litigation and I specialise in the matrimonial side of things. As a divorcee myself with three girls, I understand how difficult it can be when a marriage breaks down and I think that that has helped me to develop my career as a matrimonial specialist. Having the ability to stand in the position of a lawyer and understand the process, but also have the empathy and understanding to be able to deal with the clients as well, knowing what it's like to go through the process, that was one thing I was thinking about you just then. Positive judgment that you seem to be quite empathetic. I don't know what the rest of you listeners out there and viewers think about lawyers in general. You know, we often put lawyers in a box where they're unapproachable and it's a bit scary, but you seem to have quite a calm demeanour and a very friendly, empathetic approach. Would you say that that is part of your business strategy or is it just your understanding of what divorce entails and the process that you went through yourself to, you know, making you relatable to your clients? Well, thank you for the compliment. Positive judgment. I think there are lots of very, very good divorce lawyers out there, and I'm not suggesting for one minute that you have to have gone through a divorce to be empathetic and understanding, but I think that it has helped me personally and every client's experience is different, and it does help you to exercise a level of empathy from time to time because you have gone through the process. Your. But sometimes you need to park your empathy and be a lawyer and be very focused for the individual on the legal side of the process. Because ultimately, I'm not a counsellor, I am a lawyer. So people come to me for the law. And that has to be where you draw a line under levels of being empathetic and having gone through a process yourself and recognising that you need to focus on the legal element, because that's why people have come to see me. Really. Something interesting that you just said that you're not a counsellor, you are in fact a lawyer, to kind of add a little bit of light humour to the matter. A friend of mine said when she was going through a divorce, I just realised that time is money and I'm paying my lawyer to accidentally be my counsellor. And I'm chatting to them a lot about the cycle of grief and what I'm going through when actually taking emotion aside, which is difficult, but practically speaking, necessary, I suppose, when you're kind of decompartmentalizing what. What you own and all of that stuff. So could you tell us a little bit? First off, tomorrow is National Divorce Day, unfortunately. And what that means is, is that a high percentage, I think it's something like 40, 42% of marriages and sadly, in divorce. And tomorrow's the key day of the year in the UK for people to file for divorce. What is it about Christmas and the holidays that brings this about today? Well, National Divorce Day is well publicised and in real terms it's more like a month, because not everybody calls today or tomorrow because it's National Divorce Day. But it's significant because people have spent a period of time over the Christmas period with their spouse. Perhaps for the last year, they've been thinking that the marriage is not great or that the relationship is breaking down. And a lot of people are very focused on the Christmas period, family, friends, financial pressures, and perhaps with the hope that this is the final opportunity to get things right, to reconcile, to make it work. And the new year. Then comes the Christmas period passes and many people just either something happens over the period or it's just such an intense time that they decide that they just don't want to go on anymore. And New Year brings new resolution. 7th of January is the first working day back in the office and it is January, I think, is 25% higher in terms of the calls that we get in the first month. So there's definitely a period of change for people who feel that this is it, they need to do something and they need to do it at the beginning of the year. The idea of a new year and A new. And really, I suppose the holidays is a time where you're compressed with your spouse the expectation of it being the happiest time of the year. That's what I'm hearing from you. And then sometimes it just isn't. And with the pressure cooker, if there's already cracks in your communication or relationship or whatever, they can appear. And then January comes about. And this is why divorce lawyers are very busy. Absolutely. I might sometimes find that someone's approached me in the year before, but they've gone away, they've thought about it, and then they come back again in January having decided that that really is it, that, you know, they can't go on any longer. They've tried. They hope that Christmas might be a positive period of time when they were all together. And of course, the Christmas period, you don't have the distraction of work, you don't have the distraction of the school routine, of other activities that that might be going on. And so it really is an intense period of focus on your life. The people that you live with, the people who are around you, their habits, how we all spend our money. And if those differences are irreconcilable, then that's when people just decide that they can't go on anymore. And of course, divorce is so much more accessible now and acceptable that people do feel it's an option for them. What do you think about something that came to my attention today? Another stat, an unfortunate stat, actually. Thirteen people filed for divorce on Christmas Day this year. Did you hear about that? Yes. How is this possible? Why is it. Why does it happen on Christmas Day? I mean, is it the first time that people have been able to do that to file on Christmas Day? I thought the more interesting stat actually was that 77 people filed or filled out the application online on New Year's Day. So both days, obviously, are very significant. And it's actually terribly sad, but I think it's recognition that people just can't go on any longer. And perhaps if someone's feeling trapped or desperate to resolve a situation, that they need to go through that process at that particular time, on that particular day, just in their own mind say, that's it, enough. I'm done. So, as a divorce lawyer, what does a family lawyer, what does National Divorce Day look like for you, and what does January look like? It's very busy. Is the reality of January for most divorce practices. Not only do you have your existing cases which have gone throughout the year previously, but you have people contacting you and levels of Phone calls coming in would be much higher. People asking what the process looks like in real terms, whether they can book to come and see you, how much it's going to cost, what the potential outcomes are, and talking a lot about children, obviously, because that's a big concern for a lot of people. So there's a lot of client management time at this time of year when people are just feeling their way, having decided perhaps that they want to get divorced, going through the process of assessing whether they want to mediate or whether they want to go through the formal legal process and who they're going to instruct. So what do you have? Having your own personal story that's relative to this month, let alone tomorrow. Is there anything that you would advise people to consider before taking that huge step and filing for finalising their marriage? What would you suggest? Yes, I think there would be a couple of points that I would advise. The first, first thing is to just really take a step back. If you've had a difficult Christmas in the New year period, you might be feeling intensely, like you need to escape, but I would suggest that you take a step back and decide if your marriage is really over rather than having a knee jerk reaction. Then if you are going to divorce, just think about the timings, think about the people in your life, like the children or other family members that you need to consider. Is this the right time? Even if you've decided that you need to do it, are there reasons, you know, exams or interviews or pressures that other people have if the marriage suddenly breaking down is going to really impact on people? And then finally, I would say a big tip is before you approach a lawyer or a mediator, know what you're asking, know what your financial position is, have a look at your expenses, have a look at what comes in and out of your household. To obtain advice, you're going to need to understand, in general terms what the matrimonial pot looks like so that you can go to your lawyer and get advice that's useful, rather than go to a lawyer and be sent away and asked to do a number of things which you could have done before that first meeting. So it sounds like there's an awful lot of groundwork that you could put in yourself to, say, save time, energy, financial resources, to kind of get a grip on where you're at and what it will look like going forward. Tracy, thank you so much. We'll be back after the break. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan. This is Love Lessons. We're talking Divorce, National Divorce Day. Starting over again in finding love and what it looks like to be solo in the new year. Be back. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of women worldwide. Hungry an average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station, we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism and my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to Women's Radio Station Women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@mediamattersforwomen.org. Women's Radio Station is passionate about communication and we'd love any thoughts and feedback on our programmes. Email presentersomensradiostation.com if there's a topic you'd like to hear about or want to contact your favourite presenter, do get in touch. WRS Women's Radio Station, Voice of Women Worldwide. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity, helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntous.org.uk Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten, this is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk. women's radio station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Hello, I'm Sarah Louise Ryan. And welcome back to Love Lessons on Women's radio Station. I'm here with the wonderful Tracey Rodford of Grosvenor Law. Grosvenor Law. Sorry, keep going to say Grosvenor. Welcome back. So we have just been discussing the National Divorce Day stats and it is unfortunately in general breakup season, the time, the holidays, is when people start to contemplate cracks in communication in their relationship, things that don't seem quite right, considering it's supposed to be the happiest time of the year. And the reality is it's not always the happiest time of the year. So tomorrow is apparently National Divorce Day. So Tracy is very busy in this month, but very empathetic and available to chat and we would love to know a little bit about what is the process. So we just talked a little bit about doing the groundwork, understanding what's in the matrimonial pot, so to speak, and then they come to you and you decide to work with said divorce. Potential divorcee. What does it look like? Well, I think the first thing to say that often people don't realise is the divorce itself is quite separate to resolution of financial matters. So when people come to me, sometimes they don't realise that they have to go through two separate processes and sadly, if they can't agree on children, sometimes it can be three. And I think it's important that people understand that the divorce process itself is a standalone process. It's called the divorce suit and it's quite straightforward. And many people do their divorce petition these days online, as you mentioned earlier, and that's where they fill out the divorce, or as a lawyer, you fill out the divorce petition for them and then you make an application once the divorce has been agreed for decree nysi, and then six weeks and one day later you can apply for a decree absolute, which means the marriage is over, but that in a limited number of cases is contested or disputed. And generally speaking, most good lawyers will try and get both sides to agree a divorce petition so that that doesn't unnecessarily escalate costs or in fact, parties can do that themselves or do it through a mediator. What often becomes more difficult to resolve is resolution of finances and indeed, sometimes very sadly, children and who the children are going to live with and how contact is agreed. The resolution of finances can be dealt with in a number of different ways. You can, of course, try and resolve it yourselves, or you can approach a mediator and a mediator will seek to resolve matters in a non contentious way, looking at what there is and how it should be divided up, making sure that each party and the children's needs are met. If your case isn't the kind of case where you can mediate, because perhaps for many different reasons, there could be hostilities, there could be domestic violence, there could be, can be any number of reasons why mediation isn't suitable, you have a couple of other options. Arbitration might be a way of resolving matters that's engaging in a process which is not court based. There's also a process called collaborative law, which again is non court based, which is quite a positive way of dealing with things which avoids referencing your case to the court. The matters that sadly, I tend to deal with mostly are where parties just simply can't agree. They might have already approached a mediator, they might have already tried a different number of approaches, and then they come to me and say, that's it, we simply can't agree. And I'm going to need a lawyer to represent me, to take me through the court process. And that's when I would issue an application on their behalf or look at where they are so far and see if it's possible to try and agree things for them. Tracey, now we've talked a little bit just now in a few separate areas about mediation. Tell me. I'm just about, I'm just considering divorce. Let's say, for example, what is the difference between mediation and hiring a divorce lawyer? And is mediation the first thing that you should resort to before heading for divorce? Talk to us in layman's terms, of course. Mediation is definitely a process that you, you must attempt mediation before you go through the legal process. So when you first approach a lawyer, they are obliged to double check that you've gone through a process whereby you've attended a mediator who can advise you. And if your case isn't suitable for mediation, they will then send you to a, a lawyer or perhaps advise you of how you might take the matter forward. But lots of cases are resolved through mediation and many lawyers are trained mediators. So they will be able to look at the case and decide whether your case is suitable for mediation. As I say, there might be the odd case that simply isn't suitable for mediation, and that may be that there are domestic violence issues or, or other complicating factors that stop you from being able to mediate. So thanks for that. Tracey. Earlier you mentioned a third part of divorce being complications if there are children and not being able to agree. So let's say I have children and I know that you have been there before and gone through a divorce, thought about it and then proceeded to do so. What steps should I consider emotionally for the children approaching them? And then, you know, practically speaking in divorce, the children and the resolution of the contact arrangements and how the children will split their time and who they're going to live with is often the most difficult area for people to resolve because it's so emotional. There's so many, there's so many reasons, emotional reasons why people in the early stages are very keen to have the children live with them or maintain a level of control. And of course it's absolutely right that both parents and the court's view is both parents must have a role in the children's lives because it's right that the children have access to both parents. And there are reasons sometimes why contact between a parent and children might be limited and if they are, that will be a welfare based reason. But in the majority of circumstances where parties are separating because a marriage has broken down and they simply don't love each other anymore and their differences are irreconcilable, my view is that my advice would be that people need to just think about how it will impact on the children and agree between them before they tell the children roughly how they're going to work out a system of the children feeling that they can manage the breakdown of their parents divorce. Because for them it's a journey. I mean, it's a journey for everybody, but it's a journey that needs to be managed by the parents. It's very unfortunate sometimes that parents aren't able to put their differences to one side and recognise that they need to act in the children's best interest. Because although you can take matters to court when you can't decide, really, the court's view is that parents know what's best for their own children and if they can put aside their differences on the divorce and financial matters and simply try and look at what's in the children's best interest, then they really are best placed to make those decisions. But of course, sadly, often people aren't able to do that. And that's when they may approach me about looking at how matters can be resolved through the courts. But I would always attempt to try and resolve matters if there's a sensible solicitor on the other side, by trying to agree things and working up, if necessary, a child arrangements agreement that can then be sent to the court and put into a binding court order if necessary, so that people do really stick to what they agree to rather than getting cross when the Finance is hot up and everybody's angry. So Tracey, if you could put a time on it, on average, how A long does a divorce take? On average, and B, should we be putting a time frame on it to cap it off, to wrap it up and be able to move on? What are your thoughts on that? I think that it's difficult to put a timeframe on a divorce because everyone is is individual, every case is individual. Realistically, most divorces don't settle within a period of six months. If it's very easy to resolve, parties are entirely sensible and it doesn't become protracted, then of course it may be practical to get it resolved within the process of the decree nyse to the decree absolute, which is six weeks and one day after you receive your decree nysi. But generally speaking, I tell people it's going to take between six months and a year. But I have had cases that have lasted three or four years because sometimes people don't want to sort it out. Sometimes people get locked into the fighting and, you know, it can take a very long time or people want to go back to court again to vary orders. So it would be very difficult to put a time frame that fits all. It just isn't really that. It doesn't really work like that. With your latter comments, to me it would sound like the ego is taking over in that instance rather than, you know, just boxing it off and moving forward. It sounds like know there's grudges and things like that which can hinder the process and hold people back from moving forward. Now, Tracy, I want to ask you as a divorce lawyer, you mentioned earlier that you don't go through the grief cycle, but do you understand yourself what it's like? Obviously you do the grief cycle of letting go of a divorce and how you can move forward. I know we'll move on to later, but if you could tell me a little bit about your griefs, if you don't mind. Yes. Well, I think that I think they put divorce up there with sort of death of a loved one and moving home as some of the really big life changing events. And it would be difficult to divorce without feeling the sense of grief, of loss, because not only when you separate from a spouse do you lose your partner who you've been with for any number of years, but you also lose your family unit. And I think it surprises people sometimes, even if they're the one who's instigated, that the whole family breaks down. But it can be a terribly sad process and everybody recovers at different paces and at different levels. Thank you so much, Tracey of Grosvenor Law. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan. This is Love Lessons and we'll be right back. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of Women Worldwide. Hungry? An average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station, we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things, and my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to Women's Radio Station. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@media mattersforwomen.org. Women's Radio Station is passionate about communication and we'd love any thoughts and feedback on our programs. Email presentersomensradiostation.com if there's a topic you'd like to hear about or want to contact your favourite presenter, do get in touch. WRS Women's Radio Station, Voice of Women Worldwide. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity, helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntousous.org.uk Let me tell you about German Street Theatre, which is. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten. This is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www. Women's Radio Station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Hello, I'm Sarah Louise Ryan. And welcome back to Love Lessons. I have a new guest for this segment of the show which I'm very excited about. A little bit more light hearted, I hope. Well, serious and then light hearted about believing, living again, starting over again after a breakup and a divorce. Welcome to to Zina Arinze. Thank you so much, Sarah Louise. It's such a pleasure to be here. You know, the beginning of the year, you know, even though we're talking about divorce, that's really sad and all that, but it's still a pleasure to, you know, to be able to talk about how you can put a positive spin on starting again. So thank you very much for inviting me. No, thank you so much for being here. So we've just been listening and chatting in with Tracy Rodford of Grosvenor Grosvenor Law, divorce lawyer. What do you think about the current stats that we were talking about with divorce, those that filed on Christmas Day and 77, what was it, Tracey? 77, 77 on New Year's Day, Not New Year's Eve, New Year's Day. What do you think about that? Well, the thing is that when there are cracks in the relationship, sometimes people are in denial. You know, they're thinking that, you know, if we work harder, it's going to work, especially one side. And then when you get to the Christmas tree, for instance, and you don't see a present that you were expecting, perhaps there was a diamond ring you saw. You know, many of us as women are a bit sneaky, so we kind of see receipts in our partners, you know, pockets. And then we're expecting, okay, that's what we're going to get. Takes me back to that scene in love actually. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And it actually happens, you know, so you're thinking, okay, he's not going to get me a good present this year, he's going to get me a Hoover or Dyson, you know, and you want something and then suddenly you see this diamond necklace or a ring or something like, yes, he's done well. And then you wait on Christmas Day, you open your presents and all that, you see a book and you're still waiting, you know, maybe you see a good book, you know, but you're still waiting for, you know, the main thing. And so what normally happens after that is like, I've given him a chance or I've given her a chance. It depends, you know, it doesn't, you know, it's not really gender specific specific. And it's like, no, I need to file now. I'm not taking it anymore. I've given up. She's had an affair, or he's had an affair, or they're not good with the children, or they don't give whatever it is that your reason is. And people decide. It's a new year, new year, new me. So, Zena, you know, something you were just saying really has taken me back to a time where I was writing about a breakup. You know, in the breakup process, for the person doing the breaking up or the person, I guess, receiving the breakup, there are tests that we create as human beings to pass or fail. So it sounds to me like Christmas time is really poignant in creating those tests. Absolutely. To pass or fail. Absolutely. To continue the marriage. Absolutely. And it's quite subliminal. You don't know you're doing it, but you're thinking, okay, I'm going to give her or him another chance. And suddenly. And sometimes it's something that you're not going to pass. It's inevitable. It's just like being in a job, and you've been given so many different warnings, and you know you're going to lose your job, but you're thinking, so it's that sort of thing. You kind of know that this relationship's over, but you're pro, you know, making it, you know, prolonging it. You're protracting it. And he or she just needs to do one little thing. It could be that your birthday. Like, for instance, my birthday's in January, so it could be that present was waiting for you for January. Yes. It could be that it was bought in on, you know, in the sales or something, and you're waiting. You can't see under the Christmas tree. And so you're like, no. So actually, it's almost like a last chance saloon. Absolutely. Where nine times out of 10, if there are cracks in the relationship, it's unlikely to, you know, be able to move forward until you actually discuss it. Sometimes it takes the threat of divorce to get you back on track. Sometimes not. So, Zena, what do you think are the options before. Emotional options and in terms of trying before you go to somebody like Tracy? What would. What would you recommend before finalizing a marriage? What I would recommend, and I do this with my clients, is are you really sure you want a divorce? Because sometimes it might not be as bad as you feel. And that's not to sort of say, you know, to put anyone down, but sometimes it's not really as bad as you feel. Do you actually want a divorce? And I kind of paint a picture, just like Tracy has mentioned earlier, on how long it will take you, the kind of things that are involved if you have children in a marriage, how, how it will affect them. I always, you know, tell people about the cost. You know, are you really emotionally ready for the cost? Because sometimes women specifically have unreasonable expectations and they think, well, I've given him, you know, the better part of my days or my years, 20 years of my life, I, I should get the house, I should get this and that. And if that's, you know, correct, then you should. But it's not. It doesn't always work like that. You know, the courts look at so many different things. And then I always tell people, you need to decide, are you emotionally ready to pay for this? Because people don't, you know, you just feel that, I'm going to divorce you, I'm going to divorce her. You don't actually think of anything else, you know, and sometimes you think of it as a way of revenge. Yes. Rather than, you know, the courts are there to help you get through the legal process, but they're not there to sort out, you know, what's happening emotionally. So they're not going to give you emotional justice. Well, it's interesting that you should mention that because earlier with Tracey, we were talking about, you know, the ego. It was my suggestion that the ego hinders the divorce proceedings or if the divorce has been finalized, and then they continue to bring up, you know, new cases against this and that and the other. What do you recommend as part of letting the ego go? Personally, Sarah Louise, the question I always ask my clients is if this marriage is really, really over, then saying that the other party's lying about this or lying about that is neither here or there. Because it's costing you money. It's costing you money. Your lawyers will help you, Tracey. Other people, that's what they do. They will help you as much as possible. But ideally, you need to be prepared. You need to be prepared, ensure that you treat your divorce like a business. And it sounds a bit clinical, but that's what you need to do. It will cost you less money and it will end in the shortest possible time, which, like Tracy mentioned, could be anything up to a year and even over. But what normally happens is that everyone gets vindictive. You talk, you argue. Oh, I can't imagine that she said that. She's such a liar. That's not what happened. He's such a this. And lawyers write letters. £350 is a letter. Just a Letter. Yeah, minimal, you know, and that's not talking about other things, you know, and sometimes because my, you know, my background is law as well, I would basically give you a pro form of the kind of letter you might get in terms of instructing your, you know, your solicitor. This is what you'll be paying for, for emails you'll be paying for. Whether it's a massive, you know, difficult case or if you think that you're picking up the phone and, you know, speaking to your lawyer and you're saying, well, he did this or she did this, you will get a bill. Yes. For that. And that's what people don't understand. What you're saying is it's an expensive process, financially and emotionally. Absolutely. Okay. So hypothetically speaking, Xena, I have just been through a divorce, let's say, or I'm going through one. I'm at that stage. What do you think about the no contact rule about not contacting your ex sponsor spouse to be, I guess, or ex partner if, you know, if it's separation or perhaps you haven't been married and just a long term relationship, which can be equally as traumatic. I mean, it doesn't have as much paperwork. But what do you think about the no contact rule in terms of moving forward? I think it all depends on the parties. If the parties are. I like the word that Tracey used earlier on in the earlier segment. If the parties are still sensible, sensible, you know, and they've realized that, then, you know, they can't get along together, but they're hoping that they can move on as friends, then obviously, if you have children or you have other things, you know, a business. Some people have a business together. I have a particular client, they have a business together, and they have a lot of money in that business. So it makes perfect sense for them to continue to contact each other, although they might have parameters in which that would happen. So it all depends on the parties. Ideally, no contact is good. Where it's going to be really traumatic for either party to keep speaking to each other. They get more and more unreasonable if violence is threatened, especially. And if the children, particularly if there are children, if the children are being impacted in such a negative way because of the breakup, the law says that it's the interest of the child that is paramount. And so, you know, more often than not, parents don't actually understand that. They try to score points with each other. So it's about. If it's going to impact the children, there are children in the relationship. Is it going to impact your Business. If you both have a business that is, you know, for instance, let's use, you know, for argument's sake, let's use Posh Spice and David Beckham. You know, they went through what they went through, but they still held it together. You know, you could talk about Beyonce and Jay Z, you know, much younger than me, but they went through what they. And somehow. So it all depends on what you have to lose. You can even talk about Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton, you know, you know, these are, these are examples that we can see. You can talk about Ben Affleck and Jennifer Garner. They're now divorced, but they had such a. I don't know how to, you know, I don't know if it was a collaborative, but they had, they had a judge that dealt with. They had a judge that dealt with everything that they were dealing with, you know, in a very amicable, collaborative way. And they both have contact with the children, and they spent Christmas together. So it all depends on how the couples are, how vindictive they are, and how or how sensible they are. I really like that term. Sensible. Sensible. So you can be as smart as you like, but it's not about being smart, it's about being sensible. Yes. So could you give me quick fire, three top tips for emotionally dealing with divorce? If you could just have a quick. Absolutely. First and foremost, you need to try and rediscover who you are. Because when you're in a relationship, you know, you're substituted into one. It's 2.1. You know, everything's together. You need to. Who are you? Go on a road of self discovery so that you know what your boundaries are. Number two, don't, you know, cut yourself some slack? The relationship's over. That doesn't mean that your future, you know, is over. I love that. And number three, go and learn something else. Get out of your comfort zone. You know, it could be. Do a new course. It could be fly around the world, wine tasting. It could be, you know, cutting your head. I don't know, look for something that you can do that you can say, yes, I did this, for instance, recently I went to Malawi. Never done that. Climbed a mountain. Never done that. So you could do something like that. Is it because of the process of rediscovery? In a way, yes. Because sometimes people don't actually. You're actually on a process of rediscovery for a long time. You know, personally, I've been divorced for years, but you, you know, you, you just keep reinventing yourself, as it were. Amazing. Thank you for those top tips. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan. I'm here with Zena Arinze. Is that right? Fantastic business. Believe and live again. And today we're talking about starting over again as a solo and what it means to file for divorce and go through that whole process. We'll be back here on Love Lessons at Women's Radio Station. Tune in. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of women worldwide. Hungry? An average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station, we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism. And my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to Women's Radio station Women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@media mattersforwomen.org. Women's Radio Station is passionate about communication and we'd love any thoughts and feedback on our programs. Email presenters womensradiostation.com if there's a topic you'd like to hear about or want to contact your favourite presenter, do get in touch. WRS Women's Radio Station, Voice of Women Worldwide. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity, helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help. Visit turntous.org.uk Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten. This is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk Women's radio station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Hello, welcome back to Love Lessons here on Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan. I'm here with Zina Arinze of Believe and Live Again. Today we're talking about starting again as a solo post divorce, post breakup. It's unfortunately breakup season and tomorrow is unfortunately National Divorce Day. So welcome back, Xena. Thank you very much, Sarah Louise. Earlier in the break, we accidentally got to chatting about something very interesting that I'd like to recap on with Tracy. Tracey, you were talking a little bit, if you could jump back in. Yes, of course. About starting again. What were you asking Zena? Well, I was listening carefully to what Zena was saying. Obviously we offer support to our clients, although we offer a slightly different service. And something that she'd mentioned about empowerment and people rediscovering themselves really struck a chord with me because when people first approach me and they're ready to divorce and we go through the process of working out what they've got and how to divide it up, and it's all very stressful, they are very different people to the people that they are two or three years down the line. And that's the part of divorce that people don't see at the outset, which is so inspiring at the end. I've had divorce a number of different clients over the years who sadly have been almost broken by the end of their marriage. And they perhaps weren't empowered women mostly at the outset of the divorce. But by the end, they've maybe rediscovered a previously had career or a new career or a hobby, or they might have found a new, much more fulfilling relationship. And that's a really wonderful process for a lot of people to go through. And sometimes I try and tell people that that might happen, but of course no one's ready to hear that at the point where they're grieving. But it really struck a chord with me when Zena was talking about some of the inspirational things that she's done and that other people have done because I think there is a takeaway from divorce, which is you will live again, you will love again, and you will be happy again. It will just be a different life. That's fantastic and so positive. You know, divorce, as you were saying before, Zane, it doesn't have to be the end. It can be the Start of a very new beginning, a beginning that, albeit you probably didn't realize you were going to be going down a whole new path, but it can be a positive path. You just have to allow it to be so. Which, Zeena, tell us about these wonderful reinvention retreats that you provide for women to who want to feel empowered and want to gain their power and positive outlook again as a solo. Tell us. Fantastic. You know, I just feel like I should just let Tracey continue. We need to swap. You know, it's such a lovely panel, I guess, that we've got in today. But just to sort of touch on that. You know, what normally happens is that people are stuck. So you've gone through the process, you've gone through the legal process. You've got your decree absolute, and you're like, so what happens now? What do I do? And you've. You hear all the grief cycle, which you mentioned earlier on, and you hear people say, don't worry, it's going to be all right. But you're thinking, what do they know? How is it going to be all right? You know, I don't have my family. I don't have this. I don't have that. You know, you set the table six, you know, six plates, you know, six cups, six everything, and suddenly it's just yours. What do I do? So, you know, the reinvention retreat, I call it the reinvent you day experience. And it normally holds in July. The Next one's on July 13, 2019. Are we in 2019? Aren't we? Oh, yes. Yeah. And it's basically for women that are stuck. You know, where is it? Where. Where can people. I'll share it later on on social media, but all I'll say right now is save the date. Save the date. 13th of July, 2019. And basically, it's to help women that are stuck. So you could either be divorced, about to be divorced. You could be in a career that you don't like. For instance, like Tracy mentioned, you know, you can start a new career or go back to the career that you had 20 years ago, and you don't know where to start. You know where to start. Do I need to do a cv? Do I need to brush up on social media? Do I? What do I need to do? So it's about having a whole day, an immersive day, where you sit down with other women, some divorced, some not some widows, some, you know, different women from all, you know, walks of life, and sit down, hold yourself accountable, and say, well, this is what I need. I want to do this. So how do I do this? This is what I need to do to get to this point. And it's with other women. So, you know, you're not going to feel embarrassed or you're not, and no situation is rubbish, as it were, or no situation is helpless or, you know, if you want to move forward, all you need to do is to make that decision. Once you make the decision, everything else falls into place. And so that day is for that, you know, do lots of positive exercises, lots of immersive exercises. Talk about having positive habits, talking about where you are right now and if you don't make the changes. And I kind of paint a negative picture of where you could be in five years time if you haven't moved. And people are like, oh, my God, I don't want to be like that. So when you, when you feel stuck, it can kind of feel like a stagnation. Absolutely. And nobody wants to feel, whether it's in their relationship, their career, you know, in their, in their health, they don't want to feel like they're. They're stuck and not moving forward and stagnating. Tell us if you can. We don't want to know everything because hopefully we'll be there. Tell us what are the steps for, you know, finding your power, reinventing yourself. And before the break, the first thing you need to do is that you need to actually acknowledge that you want to move forward. You need to acknowledge that. Do you actually, do you want to stay in the past or do you want to move to the future? The second thing you need to do is to figure out what. What does that future look like to you? What does good look like to you? You know, I always advise that you journal when you're going through the divorce journal so that you know the, you know how your thoughts are. So the first thing I said is you need to make that decision that you want to move forward. Secondly, you need to figure out what good looks like to you. Another step you need to take is, in terms of, and I said this earlier, cut yourself some slack. Don't use your divorce, you know, it's an event in your life. So you're not a failure because your marriage didn't work out or because your relationship didn't work out. That is an event. It didn't go well. You have all opportunity to, you know, build up on that. Also, what are the lessons that you've learned? It's really important. Sometimes we tend to say, it was his fault, it was her Fault. And that could have it. That could be so. But what did you do? Or what could you do differently in the next relationship or in the next, you know, phase of your life? What are the lessons so that you don't take baggage into the next relationship or the next business or the next whatever it is that you're going to go on to. And we are on love lessons, aren't we? Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. So could you quickly tell us what? Well, quickly, if you, if you can, because it's, it's quite, you know, it's got an emotional pull. Like, what is the hardest part of starting over after a breakup, whether it's divorce or not? I think it's trust. Trust in yourself. Trust in the process. Trusting the fact that you're going to meet someone else, even when you lose a job, for instance, you know, are they going to like you? Is he going to like me? Am I going to be alone forever? Is he the right person? Am I making the right, you know, the right decision? It's all, it's all you know about trust and forgiveness. Those are the two things. Forgiving the party, that's easy enough, but forgiving yourself, because sometimes, you know, you're like, oh, I was so stupid. I shouldn't have done that. I should have seen the signs, or, why didn't I do this? Or, you know, and people tend to find themselves wallowing in, you know, unforgiveness. Self unforgiveness for many, many, many, many years. And I was just thinking, you know, probably you can relate and I can, too. I mean, never married, but definitely through a very large breakup. Did you ever find that you would rheumatize during your divorce? Ladies like rheumatize different scenarios and, you know, not like you said, not trusting yourself. And I was thinking earlier when you were talking about your retreats that there is such a power in sharing your story rather than rheumatizing. Especially when you're surrounded by women who are also sharing their story. It can kind of make you unstuck. Can you tell us a little bit or maybe an example of someone that's found themselves unstuck through sharing their story and stopping from rheumatizing? I'll give you a fantastic example. There was a lady at the retreat last year and she had been stuck. I mean, I've known her, you know, I didn't know she was stuck. You know, I just said, you make sure you come sort of thing. And she stood up and shared her story. And apparently she'd Been stuck in a particular situation for five years. Wow. And she kept on doing the same thing over again. The people that she was meeting, the same sort of people. And it was on the day that she, you know, I did an exercise where I was talking about, go back five years. Where were you five years ago? And she burst into. Because she was actually in the same place she was five years ago. So she shared the story. And people are like, okay, you know, so now she's unstuck, she's moving forward, and, you know, it's fantastic. So you're right. We tend to think about things that we could have done differently. And we keep, you know, replaying scenarios in our mind, in our hearts, and sometimes without meaning to, we kind of walk that way. So you meet someone new, you walk in the way. Well, I was rubbish. No, he told me that no one's going to love me. So you walk with that kind of mindset that, you know, he's going to probably have an affair or she's going to do this or that job is, you know, you walk in that kind of negative, you know, mindset. But the second you start to say, well, that's over. It's happened, it is the past. So if you do the same thing that you've always done, you'll get the same results that you've always got. Absolutely. And so, Xena, can you tell me divorce being the final option in a couple. Quick. Quick fire. What. What. What would you do to try and maintain that relationship before you divorce? Communication. Communication. Communication. You know, it's. No one's a mind reader. No one's a mind reader. This is. This is speaking to us as women. You know, we tend to think that people are going to understand what's in your mind. You know, no one's on my. Communicate, communicate, communicate. Let your partner know what you like and what you don't like. Communicate. That's number one. Tracey, can I ask you, what are your top three tips for people thinking about filing for divorce this January year? Quick fire. Okay. Well, if you really decided that that's it, you've been to counselling, it's over, you genuinely want to move forward. I think I go back to one of the points that I made earlier, which is, be prepared, have your homework done, get your background done, understand a bit about your home finances, your income, your outgoings, so that when you approach your lawyer, you or mediator, you are able to give them a good picture, and that will save money and it will save time and it will save energy. Then I think my second tip would be, have a look, go and meet a couple of different lawyers and mediators, because everybody will have a slightly different approach and you want to choose someone that you're comfortable sharing some of the intimate details of your marriage and your life with. And then finally, my final tip would be, once you've decided you're getting divorced, try and focus on the fact that you are going to be divorced. Let go of the past. It's a business. As Zena once said, do it pragmatically. Thank you so much to Zena of Believe and Live Again, Tracey of Grosvenor Law. And I'm Sarah Louise Ryan. And this was Love Lessons. Welcome to women's radio station, the voice of women Worldwide. Hungry? An average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station, we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism. And my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to Women's Radio Station Women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congress, and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@media mattersforwomen.org. Women's Radio Station is passionate about communication and we'd love any thoughts and feedback on our programs. Email presentersomensradiostation.com if there's a topic you'd like to hear about or want to contact your favourite presenter, do get in touch. WRS Women's radio station, Voice of Women Worldwide. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity, helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to. We can help visit turntous.org.uk Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten, this is where careers ignite. Where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk. women's radio station is a not for profit community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help.