Female-ing – Lissy Puig, Stop Saying Sorry When You’re Not

Hello, everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of the Femaling show. We are with women's radio station and I'm your host, Nicole Goodman. Now, today we have got a very juicy topic. The title is stop saying sorry when you're not. And basically what we're going to do is we're going to delve very deeply into a woman's relationship with the word sorry, how we overuse it, how we sometimes underuse it, and why we always feel that we have to apologize over the simplest of things. I am joined by the incredibly feisty, strong, brave Lizzie Pooch. And she is a winning, award winning makeup artist and mom of two girls and soon to be a little boy too. She has a passion for empowering women and she says that as my career has gone on, it's become clear to me my passion lays significantly more within the women's side of my work rather than just my love of makeup. Lissy, welcome to Femaleing. Thank you. Hi, Nicole. So I asked Lissy to come. Lissy and I have never met each other. We have met over Instagram. Isn't that right, Lissy? Yep. I asked Lizzy to come on the show because she responded to a story that I put up one day on Instagram. And I absolutely loved her passion and her opinion and her feistiness. And I thought, this woman needs to come on my show. She's got so much to say. And here is what she said I was talking about, and you fill in the gaps here for me, Lizzie. But I was. I think I was talking about how women apologize for everything. And I'd obviously had some interlude with somebody who just kept saying the word sorry. And I was putting it up on my stories. And Lissy replied with this, I refuse in capital letters to apologize for myself ever, ever, ever. And a burning frustration comes up inside me every time. And because of my work, I hear it a lot. Someone apologizes for how they look or not having makeup on. I can't even put into words how much it bothers me. Nobody cares. In capital letters. How can anyone allow themselves to be mean enough to themselves to apologise for just being them? Promise me you'll never say sorry on your stories again. I don't think I upheld that. And she said, I dare you go on looking like rubbish and don't for one second even acknowledge it. Not even apologise, don't acknowledge it at all. It's so freeing. So that's how we met, is it, Lissy? Yeah. And then I was horrified to get a reply back from you. I suddenly. I remember sending it and then I was thinking about you, weirdly, when I was cleaning the house, and I was thinking, you know, when you've sent a really passionate message and you think, I hope that didn't come across like a troll, you know, and then suddenly I got a message back from you that like, an hour later, and I was like, oh, thank God she didn't take that the wrong way, because it was quite. It was quite passionate. There's a lot of passion in there, but that's what you draw me to you and that's why you're. We're here now, here, talking today. So let's start, like, what do you see in your work? I know you're probably not working at the moment because we're still in lockdown, but what do you generally see in your work as a makeup artist with women saying sorry? So I think it was genuinely the thing that took me back the most. You know, when you start off in a career like mine, you don't really know what. What work is ever going to look like or what you're going to come across. And I think the range of confidence levels is what really took me aback. And the apologizing was something that was staggering for me. And I can just. I can just instantly tell when a woman walks through the door. I just. I sometimes, like I sort of said to you, I wince, but beforehand, because I know it's coming. So what are they going to say? The I'm sorry? The I'm sorry. So some of them, I can almost feel they are itching to apologize. They walk through the door and it's like a burning, burning itch, and they're just waiting for their moment to apologise for how they look like. Because often there'll be an appointment where they'll. It will recommend that it's a good idea for them to come without makeup on, for example. And for some people, that's completely fine. And for some, that's massively out of their comfort zone. And, yeah, I kind of brace myself for it now as well. So for a makeover, people will often come without makeup on, and they'll just be crippled by how uncomfortable they feel, how exposed they feel, and that's one thing. But the separate topic is that they then feel that they need to apologize to me for how they look, which is. Which is a lot, you know, when you're receiving it over and over and over again, sometimes several times a day. And it's something you know, like I sort of briefly mentioned to you. It's something that I, you know, I myself used to do in the past and I used to be there as well. And I've, I've gone through my own journey of kind of my self confidence building. It's almost ironic because to suddenly be faced with something that you used to be so guilty of doing and so unaware of, to suddenly have to, I don't want to say endure, but to constantly have to experience over and over again, it's like, it's ironic because I never once, when I used to do that, took, you know, took a moment to think how the person that was receiving it, how I was making them feel, if it was really necessary, why I was saying it. And they are often crippled by things that I would never have looked at, you know, perhaps not having makeup on or, you know, in their words, the state of their skin. And I'm sat there thinking, I see hundreds of women a month and I would never have looked at that, you know, or, you know, crippling insecurities about their face. It's just, it really is staggering. And obviously I get more of the visual stuff, you know, but you have conversations with women and you know, have a kind of understanding about people apologizing, you know, almost imposter syndrome, that kind of. Not just people apologizing for how they look, but people apologizing for not feeling that they are worthy of being in that position or whatever that is, you know, it's, it is staggering to experience. So I have been in hairdressing for 25 years and I have experienced it also exactly like you're saying. And I don't get. Because they don't walk in without makeup, I'll get, oh, I'm sorry for the state of me. I'm sorry for the state of my hair. Now if I had a pound, and it's an old saying, but seriously, if I did have a pound for every time a woman said that to me, I would. A very, very wealthy woman, right. But they don't just apologize, I've noticed, for what they look like. I think that is a very quick area for women to go to. They apologize for. Some women just come in and say sorry. They literally walk through the door and the first word that comes out their mouth is sorry, sorry, I'm late. They'll be like 43 seconds. I mean, I am quite strict on my timings in terms of hairdressing, but they're literally not late or sorry, I'm Sorry, I'm bang on time. Is that all right? Well, I mean, this is your. Of course it's all right, you're a woman. I'm so sorry. I need a Wii. That is a massive one. I'm so sorry. I need a Wii. People apologize for needing to go to the toilet. So sorry, can I bother you for a glass of water? I mean, it just, it goes on and on and everything starts with the word sorry. And you know what's the most interesting thing is that I don't know how often you work with men, probably not as often as women because of what you do. But a man has never walked into my salon in the 26 years that I have been hairdressing and apologized for his presence. Never. What is that? What does that say? So why do you think that is? Why do you think we have this incessant need to apologize and men don't? I think, yeah, I completely agree. And I, and I too have experienced the. As they stumble into the studio being sorry. And I have said so many times as well, why are you apologizing? I'm not even sure why you're apologizing now. And I think, I mean, is it cultural? Is it society? Is it habits? I'm not sure, like, think women, do they genuinely feel like that deep down, you know, are they sorry? Are they sorry for their presence? Or is it not about sorry? Is that kind of what's just verbally coming out? Is it really that? Is it coming from a place of not feeling confident in their being? You know, so not feeling, it's not about the appointment that they're walking into and it's not about the fact that they're late or they didn't know how to open the door or they feel a bit nervous. Is it presence? You know, is it about not feeling worthy to be there, to be there with you, to be there with someone new, perhaps? Is it worth, you know, is it, is it a self worth thing, you know, that comes out as sorry? Or is it that they feel, Is it that they feel it's good manners? I can, I can't quite work it out, but I think, I think is, I think everyone is quite a different thing. And on the, on the same note, it becomes socially acceptable, you know, and it's almost become, almost become like they feel that they should, you know, when I think dangerous road because using that kind of subconscious language is damaging for you. Well, of course it is. And also I think it's actually more than socially acceptable. I think it's. Hello, can you hear us? I think it become so socially necessary is what I think. Lizzie, we might have lost her. Can you hear me? Hello? Yes, we can hear you. We can hear you. You see, these are the problems with lockdown. When we're back in the studio and we can actually see each other and talk to each other properly, it'll be much better. But we are managing through. Through the lockdown and these are, you know, and I hope that my. Can you hear me? Yeah, we can hear. Hello? Hello? Can you. Yep, we've got you. You've got me. Great. Yeah. Yay. And I hope. I'm just saying that this is. Sorry, we apologize because. Amazing. That's amazing. So hold on. So that's brilliant. Right? So let's just pause the conversation for a second because it actually just happened in real time, didn't it? It just happened. And we were just as. Just before you cut it out, we were trying to dissect why women apologize for their being. Is it socially acceptable? Is it because of. Culturally that's what we're supposed to do. Is it from a lack of self worth? And so let's just dissect what just happened just now. So obviously you cut out your Internet cut out. Right. Which is fine. That happens. That's one of the problems with recording online and not in a studio. So when you came back and you then apologized to me, like, what is going on? Why. Why did you feel the need to apologize to me just then? Got you. So I'm feeling responsible. Responsible for my wi Fi that moment. And again, do you know, I think that for me is not being able to separate there being issue and the issue not being my fault. That for me is definitely a time where I would struggle to hold back the. I'm sorry. There's a lot of areas that I've got control over it with and conscience. And then there's some where I would just panic and still it's my fault. It's on me. I am sorry. You know, not being able to determine those two. And I think. I think it goes even deeper than that. I think it's more. And you tell me what you think. Is it also to do with the fact that you might be somehow inconveniencing me in that moment? Yes. Yes, definitely, yes. Messing it up with would be the first kind of irrational thought to come to my head. Yeah. Which again is kind of that deep rooted insecurity, isn't it? You know, which must sit with me. And someone else would have something else, but mine would be oh, you've messed it up. You've messed it up. It's not, it's not right. It's not good enough, you know? Yeah. And that person is going to be somehow inconvenienced for your behavior. Yeah. I mean, we're blowing, we're blowing a very small thing up, but because it presented itself as we were. It's so true. It's so true. And it's such a sign, you know, this was why I was so passionate when I replied to you, because it's become such a personal thing. Because it really has been a journey for me. But that's happened while we're in that discussion with someone that's. I'm pretty aware of my language. You know, I try and use my language really consciously and I'm still, you know, in that cycle. And it goes to show how tricky it must be for women with, with awful self esteem in those moments. You know, how hard it is to kind of break, break out of that. I used to have a client that came to me for hairdressing, not coaching. And as she walked in the door, and I will never forget this, it used to upset me every time she walked in the door. This beautiful woman who had a wonderful life and you know, she like tick, tick, tick, ticked every box kind of thing. And the minute she walked in, she just said sorry. And she didn't even give a reason for what she was sorry for. She just said sorry. And I knew, you know that moment that you were talking about before when you used to brace yourself. Yes. I knew that as I could see her car pulling up and her walking through my doors, I knew the first word was going to be sorry. And I probably got tough with her. And actually what I felt was because I really adored this woman. She was a lovely client. She's a lovely lady, Beautiful woman inside and out. You know, I just felt so immensely sad and upset for her because if she's coming into my salon and apologizing to me, she's got, you know, how you do anything is how you do everything kind of thing. So she's basically walking around her life saying sorry. Yeah, sorry for everything. She's sorry for everything. She doesn't even need to give a reason anymore. She's just sorry. Yeah. And it hit me very, very hard. And I think that's the point when I started to look at my stories. And by the way, Lucy, I would have been exactly the same thing as what you just did. Had my Internet cut out. I would have apologized to you, apologized to Melis would have felt terrible. It's somehow my fault. I've inconvenienced everyone. I've mucked up the show like that's where my mind would go. None of it's true. It's not true. And I believe that that little test happened so that we could then get into doing. Exactly, you know, so we could get into. Sorry. The producer just texted that she would do the same. Thank you, Melis. Thank you for being honest. Because we would. Because that's. I think that's part of the female makeup, isn't it? Now, I do wonder if your husband was on here. Lizzie. I can only speak for my husband. Would he apologize? I don't know. Maybe he would apologize in this scenario, but he certainly wouldn't apologize for coming into my salon and saying, I'm sorry for what I look like. No. Yeah. I'm unsure on this one. I think it would be a 50 50. I wouldn't be surprised if he did. But, I mean, in a million years, would he walk into the salon and say sorry? And he would be so much more rational about that. You know, if we had him here and I asked him, he would just be mind blown why anyone would do that, you know? Yeah. What are we sorry for with all this? Twice with all this. I'm sorry. And by the way, I noticed I did it yesterday because as I was sort of putting this show together yesterday and I replied to somebody, I texted someone back. And my first. Because they texted me on Saturday and I didn't get back to them until Sunday. And I opened the message with, I'm so sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. Taking me like a few hours. So what. What am I sorry for? Why. Why am I. What's the rush? Like, why am I apologizing? Like, she didn't say, hi, how are you? Please get back to me within the hour. I think a huge amount of that is expectation, isn't it? Or that that's where it sits with me. And I try and be really careful with my language, where I have a little bit longer to think about it when I'm writing an email or I'm writing a text or whatever that is, and you have a little bit longer to think about it than you do when you're just putting out your WI fi on a radio show. You know, I think those are the moments that I really try. And if sorry comes out, or if sorry is the leading word that comes to me, I really try and rephrase those things. And I found a lot of power in doing that. Personally. I found that's given me a lot. Tell us what you rephrase it with, Lucy. So if I was in that position with a friend, I would. If sorry came to me, whereas I have really worked hard to try and break on that habit, I would say something like, thank you for your patience, or I would just try and bring it away from the sorry and bring it to something else. And if I felt. If I felt the need to apologize or to acknowledge my lateness of a message, which is only, you know, we're the ones that have conjured up. But that's late. Like you say, no one says that you have to get back to message within a day or whatever that is. I would try and always consider, is this worth an apology? You know, what is an apology? An apology is a powerful thing, you know, and really, that's something that should be saved for when an apology is due. And I would always try and rephrase that in a thank you for your patience or just completely ignoring it. And actually, that's something I've done quite a lot in the last year. I'm always late to get back messages to people, and I just sort of don't acknowledge it now. I'm late, I'm busy. I'm not necessarily wanting to text people all day. Done. But even saying, well, I'm late, it's not. It's getting really what it is. You get back to people in the time that you get back to people now, that might be at a different pace to how somebody else gets back to you or how I would get back to you. But that doesn't mean that it's. I mean, late for who? Late under. And it goes back to exactly what you say before. It's just that expectation and that pressure that we put on ourselves that we have to behave in a certain way, but we don't have to. What is that like, we have to, you know, be polite. We have to get back to people at a certain time. Like, there's all of these silent social structures that have been built within us that are totally bloody well made up, quite frankly. I'm being polite there because I'm on radio, but they're totally made up. They're not. And where are they coming from? My husband would never apologize for when he takes someone back, ever. He just wouldn't. He doesn't apologize for being who he is, how he is, because he just is. And it's something that I admire so greatly about him. And I Don't. I can't speak for other men because I don't know, you know, other men on the same level that I know my husband, but I'm assuming he's representative of his generation of men. So this. Even, even the, and you pointed to so many lovely things and places where I really want to take this conversation, which is, you know, there's that saying of, instead of saying sorry, say thank you. So thank you for your patience. But even, but even in that text message scenario, it's like, have they been patient, impatient? It's just I'm, you know, it's like ownership. It's owning yourself for how you want to show up and when you want to show up. And it is, isn't it our prerogative to text someone back whenever we choose? And I know this sounds like a very silly, simple thing, but ultimately, don't we have that power? Yeah, no, I don't think that's. I don't think that's, you know, I don't think that's small in any way. That actually, I don't think that's something that ever really dawned on me. I think the time. Time thing, I think I am guilty of living in a time pressured impulse world, you know, and I would naturally blame that on society, but I'm as guilty for that as anyone. I've made up those imaginary rules in my head as well. And it's a relief to kind of. It's a relief to come to terms with that, you know, is that like you say, who said I need to get back in X amount of time? That's just the time I run on with replies, done. That's my time. Your time is something else. I think it's freeing. You know, you sound really empowered. You say that hugely. And actually I think the funny thing is we're all in the same boat. We're all feeling panicked sometimes or whatever the emotion is that we're feeling. We're all feeling stressed or panicked or pressured to get back to stuff. Especially when you've got a busy life or young kids or work or whatever it is. And it's silly because we're all rushing back to get back to stuff. That we're all rushing back. You know, we all think everyone else is sat there twiddling their thumbs at a cup of tea, but they're feeling exactly the same as us, you know, we don't need to. We don't need to. We don't even need to make a thing of it, you know? Yeah, yeah, but we. And Isn't it interesting? Like you said? Oh, I've made up the same rules for myself as well about when we have to get back to someone or, you know, this apologizing. But it's funny that you and I, I think I'm considerably older than you. I'm 43. How old are you, Lizzie? 27. Right, 27. We've never met and we both have exactly the same made up rule in our head. Isn't that fascinating? It's mental. It's mental. And that rule creates, as you said, pressure and stress and expectation. It's full of so many negative things when actually we could just be who we are and how we are. Like, right. If a friend gets back to me, and I know it's a small example, but again, this text message thing, but it is a big part of our culture. Like if a friend gets back to me 24 hours later, if I've asked her how she is, I don't care. Do you care? I don't give it a second thought. You know what's really interesting? I've got an amazing friend called Jen. And very similar to the text messaging like you've just said, you know, do you care? No. I actually feel relieved a lot of the time. So if someone took ages to get back to me, sometimes I'm like, oh, thank God it's not just me that does this, you know, And I once canceled on her, really last minute, I think the day before and it's miles away from me and I was gonna do something for her, blah, blah, blah. I cancelled last minute because it just wasn't going to work. I wasn't in the right zone, I can't remember what it was. And I was like, I think I said something like, has it messaged you around? You know, because she's got three kids and she said, I actually really like it when people cancel on me last minute because it just reminds me that we're all human and it's just a relief that it just happens to us all, not just me. And I'm so there with that, you know, and the same thing with the text message. It's a relief reminder, you know, we're all human, we're all the same. No one really cares. I mean, I'm sure some people care. Yeah. And what you're pointing to is that it gives others permission to be themselves too. It gives others permission to work on their own time frame too. And rather than jumping into this pressure of what we have to do and when we have to do it and in the timeframe that is socially acceptable or socially necessary. What it does is it allows freedom and it allows patience, and it allows people just to be however they need to be. And I think that's a very beautiful way to relate completely. And, you know, just showing up, you know, and especially as women, you know, we are. We are creatures based on cycle, and we just aren't always the same every day, thank God. You know, that's the magic of us and something. But so many women don't know about themselves and don't. Don't listen to. And sometimes we just can't show up in a certain way someday, and nor should we. And it's so important to teach women and to teach girls. You know, that's good. That's not just, okay, that's good. That's how you're meant to be. You know, if you don't want to show up that way that day in whatever that is, getting back to a message, going to an appointment, whatever it is, good. Listen to that. You know, don't feel pressured to be this Mrs. Consistent every day and be able to predict how you're gonna feel next week, necessarily. You know, I think it's a really big, freeing thing to understand that about yourself. That's so beautiful. I've never really. What a lovely way to phrase it that we do. We do work in a cycle, and then we get to show up differently and be different every day. And actually having the love and the acceptance for that and the understanding, because that's a big one, understanding that we show up differently every day. Do you think that if we held that a bit tighter and a bit closer that we would be able to stop this apologizing? And do you think that's part of it, that, oh, I'm sorry. I'm not the person I was yesterday when I was productive, but today I'm feeling like I just want to curl up in front of the sofa and watch film, and I don't want to text you back, and I can't get to the appointment on time. Like, rather than apologizing for it, just accepting that this is who I am today. I do, and I believe that's why there is this distinction. I think it's some of the reason that there's this distinction between men and women. You know, men are consistent on a hormonal level and consistent on an energy level and an emotional level. That's how they're built. You know, that's great. That's how they're meant to be. You know, in A vertical commas. But women aren't. But what women also aren't, which is crucial. And we. We seem to miss. And it's a huge thing for me, raising girls, because when I learned this personally, completely flipped my world upside down and I never felt the same about myself. Is that we're not empowered by the fact that we are different on a daily, weekly basis. We are torn apart about that. You know, we're called emotional or we're mocked for changing our mind or feeling differently or being up for one thing one week and not the next. And that's actually something that we are kind of mocked for as women. You know, there's phrases mocking, whereas we're not empowered for it. So when that shows up in our morning, you know, when we wake up in the morning and you're feeling low energy or whatever it is, you. You don't feel empowered by that and think, fantastic. My body is doing this today. And I knew that was coming. You think, oh my God. And you pull your hair out because you just think, why can't I just like X? You know, why can't. Why aren't I feeling that? Because I don't feel we're empowered and I don't feel that we're. We're educated by it. And I think then we just apologize for it because. Because we don't understand it and we don't give ourselves that space. Wow. I mean, blown away. Blown away. This is huge. This is absolutely huge. What you're uncovering here. You're absolutely agree. I completely agree. When we're hormonal, let's say that's just one part of our cycle. It is not considered empowered. Like the amount I'm on, you know, a group with all my best friends and the amount of times that one of us will say, ugh, I'm due on, I just need to get my period. I feel rubbish. I hate everyone. It's always a negative. It's a negative. I need to get my period. And then we get our periods and then like, everyone's like feeling better. Did you get your period? Like, as if. Oh, that's the answer. But what we're not doing is sitting in the beauty of how we feel when we're premenstrual, how we feel when we're post menstrual. And you're right, we don't even have the opportunity or we don't take the opportunity to see it as part of our magic, part of our beauty, part of our femininity, because that's very powerful. You know, it's very powerful because she sure, your energy may be lacking when we were all different, you know, personally, if my energy is lacking, I don't know, you know, week three of my cycle, for example. But yes, my energy is lacking, but my intuition is higher, you know, and that there is power in it. But we're never taught to see that, you know, we're never taught that anymore. And it's a lot for us to understand because it's so present and it's gonna bloody happen, you know, every month. So we might as well learn to work with that, you know, because I do believe that's where the apologizing for your presence comes from. Because. And I think, you know, like we were saying in the beginning, the bursting through the salon of the studio and saying sorry, you know, maybe they're just having a sorry day. I think that's sometimes where that, where that not even sorry for sorry something, you know, comes through is because that day they've just woken up and they're not feeling where they've laid their expectations on. They're not superwoman that day, you know, in their own eyes, they're not empowered by what they're. By what's coming up that day. And they're just sorry. I think that's. Personally, I think it's a big part of where that has come from. I completely agree and I'm a bit speechless about this whole concept. And I could sit here and talk about this forever and I think that that really uncovers why a man doesn't have the same ups and downs. And I'm now mentally going through my head, as I'm sure whoever's listening to this now is also, I actually say so often, oh, I'm sorry. I was really due on. Yeah. Like my kids, I'm raising two girls like you, okay. And they are nine and 12, so they're very aware of things. And now they're. If I'm grumpy, which I'm often grumpy, especially in lockdown, they're saying, oh, are you jawon mummy? So they're now jumping on the bandwagon as well. And my, you know, my 12 year old has her cycle now as well, so she's learning about her body and learning about it, but she's learning off the back of me and I'm sitting there apologizing for it. And when my husband says to me, are you due on? If I say something quite emotional to him or if he feels I'm overreacting and I'll Say, oh, yeah, I am. And sometimes when I'm feeling really grumpy, I'll say, I might be, Juwan. But it doesn't mean that what I'm saying isn't valid. Like, I still feel that. And I love what you pointed to when you said that. That your intuition is at its highest. But then that has been completely branded as emotional, irrational, sensitive, hormonal. So that we can't. We're not allowed to trust it. Yeah. Because it's. Because it's. It's too heightened. But actually, that heightened sense could be truth. Yeah. It's all the negative connotations attached to certain times of our cycle are. You know, they strip the power from it. They're not powerful words or they're not words that we feel are powerful. You know, emotion. Emotional isn't something that we are taught is powerful. You know, over emotional. You know, that's not a bad thing. You know, that that stuff needs to happen. That's when the magic happens. You know, that's when someone dumps their toxic boyfriend or, you know, makes a change in their life. You know, how many times. I'd love to know, like, studies on this. I've just thought of this, you know, how a statistic on when people have left their job at certain critical points of their cycle. You know, because I genuinely believe you've just come to heads with it. You know, you're like Mrs. Patient at certain points, and you're powerful and you're energetic and you're tolerant. And then you. Then you're like, no, this isn't serving me. And you shed cull, you know, and I would be really interested. I think people often make very powerful. Yes. Emotional decisions during that time for them. I'm reading a book at the moment by Glenn Doyle. It's called Untamed. It's the most beautiful read. I recommend every single woman on this planet to read it because it is just beautiful. And what she says is, when woman is called, oh, you're being censored. So. And that's considered a bad thing. You know, that's considered negative. Oh, she's so sensitive. Well, what's the opposite of sensitive is insensitive. And that is no badge of honor to be insensitive. Surely it's much better to feel and to intuitively pick up on what's going on. Yes, that's. That is the definition of sensitive is being able to see what's right in front of you and feel what's right in front of you. It's a beautiful thing. Completely. Yeah. I'd never thought of that. And it is these words that we that weirdly have all this negative attachment. But actually, when you think about it, that's bizarre. You know, they're human. Yeah. And I think that is a very grounding place for why us women apologize. Because every time we feel something strongly, we are taught, don't trust that. That's wrong. That's over emotional, that's over Female. That's. That's on a radio show. No, sorry. This is what happens when you work from home. You're now blowing, apologizing. Oh, God. We've got no hope. There's no hope. We're all laughing now. 100%. I want to take the conversation on a bit of a U turn. Still talking about word sorry, but in a different context. So we know that we overuse it, but do you think we also underuse it? And what I mean by that is when we really need to give an apology or to bring a serious, heartfelt apology to the table. But how are you with that part of the word sorry? Personally? I mean, I would like to see my boyfriend's face at this time, But I think I'm quite good at saying sorry personally. It's actually. I don't have a fault in that area, particularly if I feel I have done something wrong. I'm actually the first person to bring it to table or something's gone wrong. And I'm thinking, oh, God, yeah, I was at fault there, or I was unreasonable or whatever. But everyone is different on this spectrum. And I watched. Oh, God, what's her name? I watched amazing American research. What is her name? Is it G? Begins with a G. I'll think of it in a minute. And I watched one of her TED talk, and she was talking about this, actually, about a week ago, and she was saying how that kind of comes from our relationship to vulnerability, which is quite interesting and quite telling. And I think that's why we all sit separately on the genuine apology spectrum is because our relationship with vulnerability is all in a different place. And I think if you're okay with vulnerability, if that. If you've kind of accepted that and you've got quite a good relationship with it, I mean, I'm not sure where other people would stand on that. But I think the genuine I'm sorry comes easier personally for you, because I would say. And I applaud you for that, Lissy. I really do. Because from what I personally see and experience and know from myself, like, I do, I find it. I'm Better at saying sorry. I mean, when I really mean it. I'm much better than I used to be. Be. I'm much better at owning my stuff. And I have learned that it is actually easier to own up to where I'm responsible than holding on to being right and making the other person wrong. I find that more peaceful and more calming. So I'm always looking. But I've learned that through my own work of self development and coaching and by doing that for many years. And I. I think that takes a lot of practice. But I do notice that generally, and it is. This is a very general, sweeping statement. And of course there are exceptions to every rule. Generally in big, bold letters. People are very good at using sorry when it's really needed. Yeah. And yet I find the distinction between it being over you. Sorry. I'm so sorry. I need a. I'm so sorry I didn't get back to you. I'm so sorry that I'm thirsty. I'm so sorry that I walked in here on time. It's so overused and so. It could be so maddening at times. And yet when an apology is really needed in the space in order to connect and in order to fix an issue, it's often the hardest thing to come by. I. I do totally get that. Yeah. And I. And I wonder why that is. I wonder why women can throw sorry around so quickly and yet then find it so hard. Don't you think that's such a. Interesting? Completely. Completely. I completely get it. And I think, I think that's such proof, isn't it? The irrational I'm sorry walking through the door. Sorry is. Is an example of where we are just so unconsciously using our language, you know, and the moment, it really comes down to it and you've got to do it and it feels uncomfortable and we all hate it. Even if, Even if you've learned in life it's better to just do it. It's not a comfortable moment to have to really apologize because you're just sat there feeling so exposed. But I think it's that real example of consciously using language and not. And then you're really thinking about what it means in that moment. But it is so funny that, like you say that we can throw it around and then it's time to do it and it means something. And you know, we are all guilty of not being able to do it at times or. Or not doing it, you know, or. And I think it's that. It's that horrible, vulnerable moment, isn't it? Whereas that walking through the door. Sorry, is that defensive shield, you know, and that apologizing for really hurting someone's feelings is. You're sat there with an open wound. It's a very different experience. Yes, it's a very different experience. And there's a very different undertone to it. Yeah. So the walking through the door and saying, I'm sorry, it's like, I'm sorry if I've inconvenienced you in any way. Right. That's kind of what we're saying. I'm sorry that I am showing up and that you might find it irritating or it might be pressing for you in some way. My being here might have a negative effect on you somehow, and therefore I have to apologize for that. But it's just, I think that goes into the people pleasing mode and then the saying, listen, I am so sorry I said that. I shouldn't have said it. It was a really bad thing to say. And I hold my hands up and I'm sorry. And I think what that does is that exposes, as you said, it exposes us to such vulnerability. Because actually what it says is, I'm not perfect and I've made a mistake. It's the worst surrounding it, isn't it as well. It's that, you know, this, this is again, quite a general sweeping statement. This is definitely not where everyone's coming from. Some people I know, self confidence is just on the floor completely, and that's different. But sometimes the, oh, I'm sorry, you know, excuse the state of my face, you know, that makes us feel good a little bit, you know, that's. It's a bit. It's a bit me, me, me. It's the words surrounding that is a bit like you're saying that for yourself. You're not saying that for the person saying, you know, what you're saying in that sentence is, I usually look really nice, but today I'm nice. But the words surrounding, you know, apologizing to a best friend or your partner or even worse, someone you don't know, the words, surroundings, you know, having to not only say the words, but acknowledge what you've done, that hurts more, you know, because that, that is no longer for us, that's for them. And it takes something for you to say it, I think. You know, I only caught the last. I was getting sort of every other word. Can you repeat the last sentence, please? What did you hear up to? So can you hear me okay? Yes, I can hear you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think it's the words surrounding the sorry. You know, the first one is for us and the second one is for them. Really, the words surrounding sorry are different and I think they're what make it unfamiliar. Yes. Yeah. Yes, thank you. Yes. And that is what is so difficult, isn't it? So when we can do something that's self fulfilling or self indulgent in, in a way, I guess it is fairly self indulgent to say, oh, sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. Because it gets you off the hook somehow for whatever it is that you haven't done anything wrong. But then when it's for the other person, it's having to. Yes, of course, me, me, me is, yeah. And then, and then the proper heartfelt apology for when you've messed something up is for them. I'm saying sorry because I owe this to you. You deserve an apology from me because I did something wrong. And I want to give this gift of sorry to you because it is a gift. Saying sorry, like a proper apology, can be very satisfying when you need it. And you're sticking your neck out, you know, you don't know how it's going to be received. Someone can't be mean to you. You're saying, if you're saying so sorry about the state of my hair, you know, nine times out of 10 you're probably going to get a compliment off the back of that. But if you're saying, I'm sorry I did this, you're acknowledging it, you're fessing up. You may be telling them something that they might not have even thought of themselves. You're putting your neck out on the line for something that's very uncomfortable, you know, and you don't know how it's going to be received and you're facing the big R word, you know, the rejection. And that's a very different context, isn't it? Yeah, well, see, like you just, you're exposing yourself to so much because that person could go, well, you know what, you're right, you did make me feel like rubbish. I was really hurt and actually I didn't really like what you said, which is just going to make you feel ten times worse. Like you just don't know what you. But the thing is, you have. It's about who you want to be in that moment. Like, do you want to be a person that's full of honesty and truth and integrity, or do you want to be someone that just kind of buried your head in the sand? Forget it. It's not necessary. I can't go there. Totally. So let's. Again, I just want to take another U turn because I think this has been so interesting just to delve deeply into it. How do we stop apologizing for the, the overuse of the apology? Because you said that you've been on a journey with it and you have come out the other side and now that you never apologize for those things, for like the state of how you look or for turning up late or anything like that. How, how did you do that? And how can we stop this over using this? Apologizing for just being present? Oh, gosh. It was definitely a process for me, which it would be for anyone. I hit rock bottom probably five years ago after a very significant situation. And I went through a lot of soul searching. I did a lot of self development, I did some courses. All that kind of good stuff that, you know, really helped me rebuild. And I think, I think I just gradually came to terms with it and I think I just became more conscious. Becoming more conscious was the answer to a lot of stuff with me body image. It was a huge image, a huge answer to that. You know, the way I was speaking to myself internally and I just started replacing the words I was using both in my head and externally. A lot of that started from the things I was saying to myself in the mirror. And I just, I think it was just rock. It was just that rock bottom moment. I think I just, it just dawned on me how vile I was to myself, you know, and the work and what I was really saying and just, is this working for me? Is that making me feel good? Is it making me any skinnier? Is it making me any happier? No. So what on earth is the point of doing it then? You know, it's just not working for me. It's not making me feel good. And you know, becoming a mum was a huge thing for me. I became a mum at 21 and I think all of that together just was a big wake up call. I suffered abuse around that time. And I think in. In a weird way, somebody else stripping that from me was a big wake up call because I kind of was just like, nah, I'm not going to let you do that to me. And actually what am I doing to me at the same time, you know, and that was quite. It was kind of in the same conversation for me personally and coming back from. Lifting myself back from that situation, which was, which was horrendous for a few years, I think a big part of that was Also addressing the abuse that I was giving myself. And it was just that replacement and just breaking a habit and, you know, saying, you know, not saying something horrible to yourself about your thighs. And the mirror, for example, it's not going to change how you feel about yourself the next morning, but actually it really is going to change how you feel about yourself if you commit it in a month. And this is a conversation I've had with a close girlfriend of mine in the last few months and she has transformed. I've never seen a mental transformation actually so quick because I just said to her, just cut the, you know, stop saying it to yourself, stop texting it to stop saying it out loud, stop saying it in your head, you know, and commit to it. But you've got to first identify what you're secretly gaining from doing that. You know, what kind of juicy payback are you getting from saying something horrendous to yourself in the mirror? You know, are you getting a kick? You know, I mean, for me, I had this sick kind of belief that if I, if I stopped being mean to myself, I would striving to be better, you know, which was just weird. Once I could identify that and realize how ludicrous it was and replace that language every time, I started becoming more conscious of what I was saying to myself. So if I was saying something horrible in the mirror or on the way to an appointment or whatever that was and beating myself up, I would stop myself in my tracks and replace it every time. And I still do it now. But initially it really was quite shocking to come to terms with how often I was doing that on a daily basis. And I know I'm not alone in that, you know, not at all. And a lot, a lot of what I coach on is a woman's self dialogue and how she relates to herself and how she talks to herself. And because, you know, what you focus on grows and what you think you become, they're just two solid rules in life. So if you focus on all the negativity that's going on within you, you're going to feel very negatively about yourself and you will have a very unhealthy relationship with yourself. And it sounds like that the way in which you were able to stop apologizing, that you started to find out who you were, your self worth grew, you started to rebuild yourself and build your confidence at the same time completely. And it was about the story. It was about, it was starting with me and identifying what areas I was being so nasty to myself with and kind of kind of digesting how self absorbed that was, you know, really, does it, does that really matter? You know, and then like I said to you, you know, in your initial message that you read out things as small as going on your insta stories when you've not got makeup on and you've not done your hair because shock, horror, that's what you look like anyway, you know, and just not acknowledging it, it's really freeing because you just start to live in I am enough. And then you actually don't feel the need to apologize so much because you kind of go to say out of habit and you think, why the hell am I apologizing? This is just me actually. No one cares. You know, get over yourself. I do think a lot of the time that women connect to one another by being self deprecating. Yes. Yeah. And I think that's something that needs looking at and something that needs readdressing because if a girlfriend's on the other end of the phone to me going, oh my God, I've eaten so much rubbish and I feel like crap and you know, and I'm just really due on and I'm really bloated, like if I, if I then reply with, you know what, I actually feel really great about myself. Yeah, I might have eaten some rubbish, but I'm really good with that because that's what I fancied in the moment, you know, that positive self talk. But that is going to make the other person feel like, feel awful because you're just going to highlight how bad they feel. So ultimately it just is not socially acceptable to celebrate yourself. It is not. It is easier to connect with people by putting ourselves down and until that peace changes. And of course there's so much more, more empowerment around. There's so much more positive self talk around. There's so much more encouragement for a woman to celebrate herself and love herself, which absolutely there should be. But it's not really changing in, in your inner circle of girlfriends. Listen, I'm a women's coach. I. My job is about empowering women to love themselves and accept themselves and be themselves. That is what I do for a living. And yet I can be on the other end of the phone call with a girlfriend who's telling me how bloated she feels. If I join in, yeah, I might. Sometimes I turn around and go, please stop talking about yourself like that. You're being really hard about yourself. And it's not kind. But they also get a bit irritated about like, oh my God, just let me have a, like sometimes you just need to have a mode. Yeah. And people want to prefer, don't they? People want to be heard, but they also, as you said, it doesn't help. It doesn't help your relationship with yourself. It doesn't get you skinnier. It doesn't make you feel any better. It does the complete and utter opposite. So, yeah, what we do by making ourselves wrong so instantly, we need to transform into celebration. Like the cycle, our monthly cycles. Rather than making them wrong, we need to start celebrating every part of that cycle, even when we're bloated, even when we're tired, and even when we're grumpy. Do you think that's possible? I do. I think we need a shield in all these different kind of situations. And I think some of it, like you said about talking to your girlfriend, some of it is how we feel we should be relating with other people, you know, and the people just want to be heard is such a big thing for me in general. You know, it's like when someone's having a good old moan to you and some people naturally feel the need to, you know, tell them to think positive. And that just gets them to my skin so much because people just want to be heard. And I think actually in those moments where they're telling you how fat and horrible they feel, I think sometimes what we need to do is take a step back and just say to them, it is completely okay that you feel like that today. We all feel like that. You know, instead of feeling the need for us to then tear ourselves down. I think it's really challenging, but I think it's. Again, it's replacing how we react in those situations, isn't it? And just letting them feel heard and just saying it's completely okay for you to feel like that, but you're enough, you know, and the I am enough was really helpful for me. And obviously it's still something I battle with. The same as every other woman, I assume. But that kind of. I'm feeling fat and awful today. Do you know what? That's all right. Maybe I am fat and awful today, but I'm enough, You know, separating that worth and the weight or the worth and the. Or the worth and the how far you are with your career or whatever it is. It's okay to feel a bit crappy about your job today, but you're enough. You know, I think sometimes. Sometimes just sitting in the enough and kind of help a little bit with that. Yeah, because we rip it away from ourselves because suddenly it becomes all about the Whatever it is you're complaining about, I've eaten too much or, you know, I feel disgusting today, or I haven't worked out for three weeks and that becomes, that becomes the reality, doesn't it? We don't then see the bigger picture of who we are. We're just tearing ourselves down for the one thing we haven't done. And we're tearing ourselves down from not excelling in those areas. You know, like it's okay to just exist. It's okay, fine. If you're fat, then that's fine. Stop, stop associating I feel fat today with therefore I'm not enough or I don't know where I want to go in my career today with therefore I'm not off. Okay, fine, you feel rubbish about that. That is so okay. Feel rubbish about it, have a moan about it, but don't let yourself not feel enough about it. You know, we don't need to excel all the time. All of this stuff, you know, that's fine. That's life. Yeah. Yeah. And we do, we give ourselves such a hard time about this constant. I haven't, I haven't done enough today, or therefore I am not enough today. And then that's, I think, when all the apologies start coming in. Oh, I'm sorry, I, I am sorry, I haven't. It's like, for want of a better word, it's like an epidemic. It's true. And you're projecting. Sorry. Because you're just so conflicted by all of these emotions about not being skinny enough or whatever, not being on time enough or your hair not looking good enough or whatever it is. Because to you, it's not, you're not excelling in it. You've not done a blow dry while breastfeeding your baby or whatever it is, and you're not sitting in it, so therefore you're just blurting, I'm sorry. You know, and I think, I don't know about you, but motherhood for me was the game changer for that because you just can't do it anymore. You can't do it. And having two babies back to back very quickly like I've done this time and having to take a huge step back with my career was a really difficult pill for me to swallow. And, and I had to swallow a lot of the. I'm not enough, you know, I'm not producing content. I'm still enough, you know, I'm not doing X amount of clients. I wasn't able to work in my second pregnancy. I was really ill. You know I'm still enough. And that that was a huge, a huge one to come to terms with is that I'm not excelling, but I am enough, you know, and who even said excelling is? You know, it's the. I'm not doing it all, therefore I have to apologize for it. So when a woman comes into my salon or into your studio and says, I'm so sorry for how I look, they're saying, I'm so sorry that I am not up to that level of perfection that we all got used to seeing. I'm so sorry I'm not that woman today in this. I'm projecting onto myself. I'm sorry that I'm not turning up to you in, in the way that I think I should. With a high flying career, somehow managing to be a full time mum at the same time. A clean house, perfect hair and nails. I'm sorry about that. It's mental. So we've got three minutes left and I always like to end with a quote. And I've got a couple here and one of them is from you that I would like to read out. And it says, looking at sorry in inverted commas. Looking at sorry as a word can help initially separate our use of it. A feeling of regret, compunction, sympathy, pity. Are you genuinely sorry to that person for what you're apologizing for? I love that question. For you to be sorry, it must be affecting them negatively in some way. Are you really, really offensive enough and willing to tell yourself you're offensive enough to apologise to the other person? What are they gaining from that? There is a time and a place for an apology. They were your words. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What an insightful woman you are. And, and I really love that. I love that question of are you genuinely sorry to that person for what you're apologizing for? I think that is such a transformational question. I really do. And then the other one that I found online, and I don't know who it's by, it says, embracing the idea that you can want things for yourself even if nobody else understands the why behind them, is the most freeing and powerful feeling in the world. And I thought that was very beautiful. Because what that does is gets you out of that sorry dialogue and that sorry mentality. Yeah, I love that. Missy, you are a wonderful voice for women and I thank you so much for coming on my show. We had a bit of a tech disaster before you came on and I know that she was a bit stressed, so thank you for coming on and being calm and being insightful and for just being a champion of women. Your voice is very much needed. Thank you so much for being on femaleing. So much for having me. Thank you. Good. Pleasure.