Eat Love Do – Simon Wolankski, Libbys Gluten & Sugar Free Goods That Taste AMAZING

Hello and welcome to the Eat Love Do Show, exclusive to Women's Radio Station. I am Janine Newbury and I'm very excited about today's interview. Um, I have the lovely Simon Wolanski, who's the founder of Libby's Bakeries. Um, Libby's is a gluten-free, gluten and sugar-free bakeries. Um, they've got a couple of places in London and, and they also deliver as well. So if you don't live in London, don't worry, we can pop out some of those bad boys to you in the post, which is very, very exciting. Um, and It just like, it, it actually just created, um, gluten-free goods that actually taste good rather than the cardboard that used to taste years ago. So you're going to absolutely love them and their brand. If you've not heard of them now, this is going to change your life if you believe in gluten-free, which I think everyone should be, but that's my opinion anyway. Like, enough of me rambling on. Remember to hit up our socials, Instagram, Facebook, Instagram @womensradiostn, and go to our YouTube channel, hit that like and subscribe button because it really helps us and we love it when supporters. Right, now that's out of the way. Simon, welcome, welcome to the show. Thank you, Janine. It's a pleasure to be here. Yay! I was so excited when you said you'd come on and chat to us because I absolutely love your stuff. Thank you. Do you want to actually just share, um, with the listeners, um, what it is, um, that made you get into lipsticks? Because you've got a great story. You've actually got on your website as well, haven't you? Yeah, yeah. Um, what, what was your journey? Um, and yeah, So just— okay, um, basically it's kind of like a lockdown story. Um, I think we were at home for months on end, it felt like, and the kids were here homeschooling them, and I was just feeling more and more tired. And I, one Saturday morning, remember it was a Saturday morning because I'd sort of thought I'd overindulged a bit on challah bread, which is like a traditional sort of Friday night bread, and next morning I had headache, I was really tired, and I thought right this has got to stop. Um, I then thought— I remember when I was um in my 20s um I went to see some kind of weird doctor and he told me to stop eating gluten and sugar and stuff so I didn't. By 'weird' you mean like health practitioner? Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah! He made me like hold things in my hand and he pushed my arm down, and if it went down, he's a kinesiologist. You saw a kinesiologist? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, not a weird doctor. Um, and you know, at that age when you're going out, you're having fun, you know, drinking and stuff, it's a bit difficult to sort of put restrictions on. So I just ignored it. I now— and it just came back to me. I thought, you know what, let's cut out gluten and sugar and see how I feel. And within a few days, I really, you know, I'm not going to say everything changed, but I had a lot more energy and I just felt a bit more alive. And it felt like a bit of a veil in front of me had been lifted. And that was really enlightening. So I carried on with that for the time being. And not that long after that, I thought, you know what, I've always been in, for a long time, in hospitality. So, um, had an event catering business which was not doing very much because of the pandemic. We were used to sort of catering at sort of large venues in London, um, and literally no events. So, um, I started doing something that I'd never done, which was get in the kitchen and start making things. And my mission was actually to try and find a really good replacement for sugar. That was my initial challenge that I gave myself, and everything was awful in my opinion. There are loads of alternatives like xylitol, erythritol. They taste really synthetic, don't they? Oh my God. Yeah. And they really— Stevia is my biggest bigaboo. I hate that stuff. And they've all got such a nasty aftertaste. Yeah. And There was one that was okay, actually. It came from America. It was called Allulose. I don't know if you come across that. No, I haven't tried that. No, that was actually quite good. But because of regulations, it wasn't legal to be used in the UK because a lot of these things go through regulations. Cut a long story short-ish. Next thing was, so we had all these sweeteners, monk fruit sweetener, all this stuff. And I thought, I'm going to get literally the best chef that I know who used to work with us, who loves making cakes and pastries and stuff, get her in the kitchen, do some development and see where we can get to. So I called up Kerry Moss, who used to be our head chef at The Recipe, and Kerry went on to a bit of fame. She won professional MasterChef. That's incredible! Yeah, she's incredible. And I said, right, Kerry, got a new challenge for you. We're gonna make cake. So she was so excited, she loves making cakes. I said, but, um, no sugar and no gluten. What? All the stuff that makes cake taste good. Yeah, anyway, we gave it a go, um, and we eventually found what we thought was a really good sugar replacement, which was basically something called fructo-oligosaccharide, um, which is a fiber and we turned it into a syrup and it worked really well. We think it's— we sell it as a syrup. It's called our Original Syrup, which to be honest, I think is one of the best products that we do. And with a bit of sort of educating people and letting them know what it is, I think it's a great alternative to agave or any sort of sugar. It's got like half the calories of it, doesn't raise your blood sugar level up. It's really good. Is this for diabetics as well then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's got GI of zero. And funnily enough, there's other similar things out there, but it's just they're sort of branded as a fiber supplement, not as a sweetener replacement. And I'm really sorry that I'm veering really off track because I know this is gluten-free, but we're going to come straight back. This is fascinating. This is okay. Cool. Because sugar is like obviously really toxic for the body and it's really hard to find good natural sugar substitutes like we discussed. So the fact that you've created one and it's got such a low GI and diabetics can have it, this is incredible. This is like life-changing. No, honestly, it is something that we want to work on. And maybe, yeah, the whole saying no sugar, sugar-free is such a minefield. It's got so many regulations, what you can and can't say, no added sugar. This and that, because so much— so many products have got sugar in it that you wouldn't even think of as, all right, if I have that, I'm having sugar. And there's a lot to learn about sugar because I don't think it— it's how it's consumed, I think, which is really bad. Um, so I think when it's consumed with appropriate fiber, it's probably not as bad for you as if you just have, um, you know, sugary drinks. But anyway, so we started doing my development in the kitchen and The biggest challenges that we wanted to do, the initial challenge was probably the croissants because that's just something that we'd never seen as, you know, edible, to be honest. You need to get that flakiness with croissants, don't you? Yeah, everyone's got different things they like about croissants, but the flaky is one really important one. So we start— and bread we wanted to make, so we You know what, we found the cakes quite easy and we came up with a good range of cakes. But at this point in time, my focus was— this was before we'd even thought about making this into a business. I thought commercially that the sugar reduction would be the sort of winner winner chicken dinner. I didn't know that much about the gluten-free world other than I felt quite good without eating it. You know, when you're passionate about development It's a process that never ends, but if you want to start a business, at some point you've got to say, right, this is where we're at, let's get the show on the road. So we opened up a pop-up in Queen's Park, Northwest London. It was in April, I think we launched on April Fool's Day, and it was still in, in some kind of lockdown process, and that went really well. We did cakes, coffees, croissants, we're starting breads and bagels, and it was good. Yeah, it went really well, and that encouraged us to, you know, think about opening our permanent store. And it was really interesting at that point that it became obvious that the gluten-free world was really much bigger than I envisaged and was crying out for foods which were sort of on a par to what they'd expect before, because it is really hard, really, really hard, and it takes a lot of iterations to sort of get somewhere. Further things that sort of challenged us at that point, there was a big demand for vegan food. Yeah. Everyone kind of felt like everyone wanted everything. But so, so, you know, we've got a few vegan products in our range. But what to me feels really important is to also be looking at dairy-free options because I think a lot of people— you got to have— you talk about nutrition and stuff like that all the time. Um, so that, that's on our radar. So anyway, we opened up our first store in Notting Hill and, um, I wanted it to be a really good location because, um, my vision was to sort of try and wholesaler products into stores all over the country and have an online presence. So, um, obviously want the products to speak for itself, but London's a, you know, so many villages, so many towns, so many places. It just felt important to sort of align ourselves somewhere, um, like impressive. So really pleased to find a site in Ledbury Road, um, and that's how we got our first shop. Up and running. And since then, the response from the gluten-free world has been— honestly, the pleasure that I think we've given people has just made this so rewarding. You know, some— it's so— gives us so much pleasure to see, um, especially little kids really happy eating stuff that they do where they've not been able to before. Um, so yeah, we're really looking forward to it does. It changes your life because I've been gluten-free for about 20-odd years now for health reasons because, um, I've got a wheat intolerance and gluten intolerance, and if I eat it, I get really tired, really run down. Yeah, all the symptoms. I'm not, I'm not celiac, but I get a lot of those symptoms. IBS, the full shebang. It's not, no, it's not pleasant. And I've had that most of my life. And then back 20 years ago, when you're trying to find something gluten-free, it was almost unheard of. And then when it started to bring out gluten-free breads or Rye breads came out first, but they've got gluten in anyway. And then you try to eat, try eating gluten-free breads and they were just disgusting or they'd fall apart. It's like eating cardboard or dry and just awful. And I think that gave gluten-free products a bad name, a bad rep for so many years because they were just so bad because nobody knew how to do them well. So the fact that you guys have come along and have done it and it's edible and not only is it edible, it's really good. It's just like amazing and life-changing. So it's just like, wow. You can actually, because you got to like, we all want to be healthy and like take, you know, eat, eat for health and take care of our bodies, but sometimes you got to eat for your heart and your soul and just for enjoyment. So the fact that you've created something that you can enjoy and it's delicious and it looks delicious and it tastes delicious and it's good for your body and you feel good afterwards because you haven't got all the, uh, you know, side effects from the, from the gluten and everything else in it and sugar, that's just brilliant. It's absolutely fantastic. Thank you. I'm like, yeah, the world has been waiting for Libby. Oh, thank you. No, it's, um, yeah, no, it feels, you know what, it feels really right. So I'm, I'm not, um, celiac like you, and I'm, you know, so I'm probably mildly gluten intolerant, you know. I, I've sort of existed all these years without, um, cutting it out, but I definitely, you know, really feel the, um, the benefits for it. Um, can I ask you a question actually? Because this is something which is really live for us at the moment, um, and has raised a lot of questions with me. Um, a lot of gluten— so a lot of the stuff we do are breads and pastry and cake and cakes. Um, and a lot of, um, celiacs and people that really have to avoid gluten have had a bit of pushback with us, um, on the sugar-free aspect of it. They're like, oh, finally we found somewhere that's really good, but we just want to have a cinnamon bun that tastes, you know, as sweet as a cinnamon bun, or, you know, a cake that is as sweet as a cake. Um, and you know what, my take on this, Simon, is you can't please all people all of the time. And I think education is a big step forward into people understanding. So addicted to sugar, um, it's also going to have a detrimental effect on their digestion, ironically. Yeah. And the whole body and every cell in their body and breaking down their body. And a sugar addiction is like a crack addiction. They took scans of people's brains when somebody had cocaine and when they had the sugar, and it's exactly the same parts of the brains that light up, the same addictive parts of the brain. Yeah, actually that addictive. And it's really harmful for us. So I think the fact that you found a sugar alternative that tastes good. Yeah. And because it doesn't taste like sugar sugar that everyone's addicted to. So there's going to be a process, I think, of people weaning themselves off the crack, if you like, and actually getting used to the sugar that's good for them. So I think the way around that is to kind of educate people and go, actually, you can eat this sugar that's actually good for your body and better for your body, especially if you're celiac or you've got other illnesses, diseases, because, you know, that sugar is going to cause inflammation in the body. And that inflammation will detrimentally affect anyone with celiac or any disease. Inflammation in the body causes all diseases. So I think people just need to sort of learn about it and they just need to get the taste buds to adapt. It's like people, um, that now— there's a lot of people now on the nut milks rather than the cow's milk. And at first when you switch to a nut milk from a cow's milk, it tastes different. And people in their head go, well, this doesn't taste the same. And the mind doesn't like change. It likes what it likes. Yeah. You adapt to it and you get used to a change and you know that this change is better for you. At some point you get used to it. Now I've had nut milks for like 20-odd years. I used to make my own before you could buy them. Almond milk was one of the first ones, right? Yeah, almond milk. You used to blend it in water with a blender, put it through some tights. Yeah. So like, because it didn't exist, but now you can buy it in supermarkets. Like, hurrah! A friend of mine, a girl who worked for us at the event catering business, Natalie, She was like one of the pioneers of sort of natural almond milk. It was amazing, but she got sort of, uh, you know, she was in like all the, uh, like really lovely delis and stuff like that around London, but she got kind of like commercially put out of business because it became so, so mainstream. Yeah, and that's a good thing because people need it, but yeah, you just have to— it's a shame she had to adapt with the time. Can I take you back to the sugar? Adapt or die, Simon. Can I take you back to the sugar? Yeah, go for it. Because what we're doing is we are going to be introducing some products with like responsible amounts of sugar in it. For the sugar crack addicts. Yeah, yeah. Just, you know, I was, I was really, you know, really torn as to what to do because we're here to sort of serve people. Yeah, and, um, you know, I've heard so much from, um, celiacs in particular, rather than gluten-tolerant people, that, you know, they've got so many restrictions on their life that are forced upon them. Yes, I think it's a mindset thing with that. It's like, we can't have this, so I want to have that. It's almost like that. Yeah, if you'll take— you're taking one more thing away from it rather than seeing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we want to be, you know, uber responsible. So, you know, the sugar-free stuff is the soul of what we do. Yeah. But we are going to cater for people that have got those restrictions and don't want to be restricted by anything more than they have to. Well, try it, try it, see if it works. That's the great thing about having a small business that, um, I sort of run a kind of with my wife and with the kids because they have a lot to say for it, um, that we can chop and change and choose and say, right, you know what you could do? You could set stuff, um, for your clients addicted to sugar. You could set them like, like little challenges, like a 30-day or a 10-day or 11-day sugar-free challenge. Yeah, if they actually cut sugar out of their diet for about 10 to 11 days, their taste buds would adapt and they wouldn't need it anymore. If they did it for 30 days, it would heal their body and then taste buds would change. Children, um, that are given formula from a young age— like, I think, I'm sure now there's like better formula out there, but formula nutrition had lots of sugar in it. Cereals have got sugar in it. Oh my God, yeah. From children, from babies upwards through to adults, everything's had sugar in it, and we're addicted to sugar. And food manufacturers know that people will buy something. Oh, and it's cheap sugar in it and it's cheap. It's cheap. It's addictive. You want more of it, so you start craving it. So we have to sort of reeducate our bodies and our minds are stronger than our bodies that we don't actually need sugar. Like, so can I ask you, can I ask you on that? Because I'm learning about this all the time. So fruits have got like quite a bit of sugar in certain ones, ones more than others. So what would your view be on sort of, um, things that sort of like naturally like sweetened with like dates and date sugar and stuff like that? Does that, um, make you feel better about— so when— so, um, because I'm like my ADHD type condition and whether it's the way my brain thinks, I'm like quite black and black or white. So that's why the sugar-free thing is really a real challenge for me because, um, obviously fruit's got sugar in it. So when we put fruit in our products and stuff like that, I kind of like feel, am I cheating people by actually putting things like that in it when we're like, if we're sort of promoting, um, No sugar. I think if you're saying sugar-free, what you mean is the bad sugar. That's really what— Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're saying it's sugar-free, and if you're putting fruit in it, I think any intelligent person, which I think most people are, know that there's natural sugar in fruit. Yeah. If being sugar-free is something that they are aware of, they would probably avoid the products with the fruit in. And go for the, the sugar-free products that you use. I don't think that would be a problem. And I think I actually like desserts and cakes and stuff with fresh fruit on because it's delicious and it's healthy, and you get all the nutrients and all the benefits that you get in the fruit as well. It's not just the sugar in it, it's actually good for your body. And we need a little bit of sugar in our diet, and our brain needs a little bit of sugar. Yeah, again, it's— if someone's got a particular health condition, that's a different story. But for your average person who's pretty healthy, wants to just cut sugar out because it's not, you know, refined sugars, because they're not good for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's point. It's about being healthy. You don't need to restrict sugar from, you know, it's the refined sugars, the bad sugars, if you like, that you're taking out, which is what's great about what you're doing. Yeah. And putting in the natural ones, that's fine. I would say that's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what is, um, the direction. Yeah. Um, that we, um, we, we're looking at. Um, I think also with my wife here, Jo, Hello, Joe. Joe is like the social media— yeah, the face behind all the pictures and all the, um, social media comments. She really tries to like answer everybody, and she's been so important. I didn't really— I've never done a business before where social media is important. Yeah, these days it's not like where most people's businesses are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's been— it's unbelievable the amount of work that's involved in it, and it's like constant because people expect, quite understandably, like, you know, quick responses to everything nowadays when they got a question. Yeah, I'm so grateful to all the effort that she puts into that. Oh, big round of applause to Jo. Your social media is nice, actually. Do you want to just share with everyone what your Instagram account is and your social media accounts so they can find you? Yeah, I think it is Libbies London? @libbieslondon? @libbieslondon, no dots, just one word, isn't it? Yeah, all one word. And what's your Instagram again? I've got Janine and Newbury, @janineandnewbury, spelled like strawberry. And it's a place, isn't it? It is, I know, but that's a place, it's spelled B-U-R-Y, that's why I always say it's spelled like strawberry because Otherwise, people say, yeah, there's a town called Newbury as well. Yeah, I'm not the town. I'm new. You know, and I want you to start following me now. So that's why I was going to sort of ask. Oh yeah, yeah. Hit me. Yeah, hit me up. Follow us on socials and I'll show you. What is it? So Janine Newbury, Newbury, spell it Janine Newbury and Eat Love Doers. Eat Love Doers. Doers. So it's like Eat Love Do with an ERS at the end. Eat Love Doers. Oh, Eat Love @doers. And obviously the women's radio station is @womensradiostn. There's a load there, there's a load. You are very social. How often is the radio— does your program go out? This is a weekly show, so around 9 AM and 9 PM every day all week. And then this show is placed on 32 podcasts globally as well. You're really famous. Well, I don't know. Am I? I don't think so. This is so cool. This is cool. Yeah, we've got about, uh, up to now about 180,000 listeners each show, which is amazing. I didn't realize I'm talking to like— you're talking now to 180,000 people listen to you. Hi everyone. Hello. Oh my God, you got such a massive following. Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, we just won some more awards, I think, as well. The radio station— what awards? I think— I can't remember. Is there just one of you? We've won loads of awards. It's a charity radio station, is Women's Radio Station. Yeah, yeah. So it's— and the whole, um, ethos of this show and the station is to help people better their lives, get out messages so that people can, you know, and take care of themselves, their body. So my show is Eat, Love, Do. So it's about what you eat, how you love yourself, and what you do on a daily basis to bring more health, happiness, and wealth into your life. So that's why I love chatting to people like you. Yeah. You were literally on the eat side of it. Yeah. To what you can put in your body that's nutritious and nice and delicious as well. Because people have got this thing where they think eating healthy is boring and that they feel deprived, which is what I think your celiac— so your celiac— yes, struggling with. It's a mindset thing. So they're feeling deprived, so they're feeling lack. Rather than seeing what they can have when actually eating healthy and what all the benefits you get with it. And eating healthy can be really nutritious and doesn't have to be expensive and it can be fun and enjoyable when you've got products like yours at Libby's. Oh, thank you. I do. Yeah, we are trying to really, you know, it's— if we can— yeah, we need to find all the gluten-free people that we can because we really do want to give them things that they haven't been used to or being able able to have. We're actually going to try and get some awards at the moment coming up. I think it's called— is it the Free From Awards? Yes. Does that make sense? Amazing. Good luck. Can we vote for that? Can we all vote for you? No, I think it goes to a judging panel. So I think tomorrow we're sending in the croissants. And so I entered for a few different awards. One was the croissants, one was for the sourdough bread, Another one was for pizzas. Have you had a look at one of our pizzas? I haven't, no. Where are you based? I mean, I'm in Earl's Court, so I'm only down the road. Okay, I will get you a pizza. I used to go to college near Earl's Court. Oh, did you? Yeah. Oh, so you're near— okay, so we don't do the pizzas in Notting Hill yet, but we will be soon. Um, but we do them in Belsize Park. Um, And yeah, I'll get you one. Do you have any other dietary restrictions? I, I, dairy-free. I try and be dairy-free, but I eat cheese now and again. A bit of yogurt. Yeah, really dairy-free, but I don't drink milk, if that makes sense. And yeah, that's it. I had a really challenging one. Have you done any of the— have you ever done the food intolerance test where they send in hair? I've not done that. I did, I did a food intolerance test years and years and years ago. I've done it like kinesiology ones, and I've studied kinesiology as well. And I did, um, I think— is that what I call the Willy Doctor? I can't remember, it's such a long time ago. I can't remember what it's called. It was like years and years. It's like maybe 20-odd years ago now. Yeah. Um, but also your intolerances can change. Like, somebody can be intolerant to eggs, for example, but if they take it out of the diet for a period of time and then reintroduce it, sometimes the body can heal and you can eat it again. Which is different to an allergy. Allergies you should just avoid. Yeah, you finish. Yeah. Intolerances, you can— sometimes people create intolerances because they eat too much of the same food for too long, and that's what creates the intolerance. So you can take them out. So it's, uh, yeah, so yeah, it's a good thing to do, to do a test. Yes. So I did that test, um, a few weeks ago, and oh my God, it was really, really interesting because quite a lot of things that I liked came up on it. And I guess it's because I have a lot of it, but Um, so it said all dairy is out. I could have eggs, no soya, no coconut, no sesame, and I love tahini. But the— it really restricted me because all the vegan or dairy alternative cheeses have all got coconut oil in, right? Yeah, yeah. So I literally couldn't have any sort of dairy alternatives. And I did the test again a few weeks later, and a lot of the things that it said I wasn't intolerant— that I was intolerant to, I'm not theoretically anymore. But what I mean, I think it goes by what you said, that your body heals. Yeah. By not having it. So I don't want to— so I'm going to start to reintroduce some things very, very slowly because I don't want to get to the point where I think if you've got stuff that— yeah, cut them out. If you've got stuff like the coconut oil and stuff that you've been a bit intolerant to, introduce it slowly and just have it now and again. Don't have too much of it so you don't tip that scale over again. Exactly. And it's like, so you don't have to let— that's, that's the difference between, you know, tolerances and, and allergies. Intolerances you might be able to bring back in, so it's good. You just, you just overindulge in it. It's like, yeah, if you're overindulging alcohol, you can have a hell of a hangover, right? That's what it's like. An intolerance is like a hell of a hangover, and your body needs to be able to get over and recover from it. Yeah, it's funny. Again, at some point, just don't overdo it again. Yeah, it's like saying— yeah, that's a really good way of explaining it to people, actually. Like, you just wouldn't, as you grow up a bit, like, feed a hangover with too much more alcohol because you just know you're setting yourself up for bad situation. But yeah, no, so it's really— I, I'm finding the whole food intolerance, and I suppose it goes into like the microbiome type things, really, really, um, interesting. And the more and more people I speak to, um, the more I think it impacts everybody. And dairy is one thing which really, um, people seem to get so much benefit from cutting it out. Yeah, well, when you think about it logically, milk is the breast milk from a different species. It's the breast milk to feed baby cows so they get— yeah, adult cows don't have milk, just baby cows do. Like, um, adult humans don't drink breast— human breast milk as babies do because it helps them grow. It's the same thing. So we're actually drinking another species' breast milk. You're like, yeah. And I mean, cheese is delicious. Let's not, let's not, you know, make any bones about it. We love it. And cheese is delicious and yogurts are delicious and creamy and creamy and lovely. Cream still, I love grandma's cream. But like, my wife literally would be able to like drink double cream. I used to like when I used to eat, because I do eat gluten stuff occasionally and I suffer for a few days afterwards. But I used to be addicted to eating scones, cream scones. Yeah. And it was purely to get the clotted cream. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't really care about the scone, I just wanted the cream. So yeah, yeah. Who likes scones? Nobody likes scones. Everyone likes gluten-free. They like gluten-free. Gluten-free, old school, like cakes and breads, aren't they? Do you do gluten-free scones? No, we have been asked for it. We do get asked for some really weird things sometimes. Oh, I need to look into it. In January, the last few years, there's a cake which people have, I think, in Spain, something to do with Three Kings. Okay. I think it's to do with like an Orthodox Christmas that they have, right, in January. I think it's called Three Kings cake. Like, people keep emailing me asking me if we do it. I'm like, No, I've never heard of it. Maybe give it a go. Yeah, exactly. That could be the way forward. Easter for people. Yes. Have you had— have you had— what's the best gluten-free stuff that you've had? Other stuff that you've enjoyed? I've had some stuff from Whole Foods that have been pretty good. But if I'm honest, the stuff that I've— the only stuff I've enjoyed have been more like cupcakes and sweet stuff because they can make like the cakes and cupcakes and muffins and stuff more moist and a bit sweeter. So it's more tolerable. I haven't had a really good gluten-free bread. Okay. Have you had our sourdough yet? No, I haven't. So I send it all to you. Just send me the shop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Transport. You know what? Why don't I just get you an Uber? It's not that far. What about— have you had donuts from Borough 22? No, no. They're supposed to be unbelievable. Where's that? Where's that from? I'm going to make a note of that. Jo, where are they? They are only online. I think they're only online, but aren't they? Oh, in Selfridges. In Selfridges. They do the fried ones as well. Yeah, they're supposed to be so good. I'll try that again. I love the aesthetic. Yeah, no, they look good. I think there's a few sort of— there's more movement. It's a bit of a movement at the moment, the gluten-free stuff. See, were you talking before about restrictions? I don't think that what you're doing is restrictive at all because I don't eat donuts because of the gluten and the sugar and the fried and they're just so bad for you. But if there's somewhere that's making gluten-free donuts and reducing the sugar, that doesn't restrict me. It actually opens up my diet to more things that I can enjoy if I want to that I wouldn't, I wouldn't eat because it's so detrimental to my health normally. Yeah. So I think just stay on track with what you're doing. Like, yeah, we're very, you know, very passionate about it. Um, yeah, it, it comes— so it also, yeah, also I'm being careful with the sugar thing as well because it comes down to Being responsible, like bizarrely, if we put a little bit of sugar in some of the doughs for the breads, okay, it's, um, this is where I find it really complicated. It's the sugar disappears because when it reacts with the yeast it burns away, but it makes the yeast, um, bubble up so much more than if we do it without the sugar. So it creates, um, because the yeast feeds on the sugar. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the yeast eats the sugar, the sugar disappears. So we've got some testing done actually by, um, a company called, um, not an organization, what's it called, um, um, Sugarwise. Have you heard of it? No. Sugarwise? Yeah, Sugarwise. They certify things. For like no sugar, no added sugar, stuff like that. And so what we did was we sent them some breads or pizza bases that were made with sugar with the expectation that the sugar disappears. And when they certified it, it's— yeah, it said it constitutes no added sugar. So it's so complicated. It's a real, real minefield. Um, so the irony, they add in the sugar, makes it no sugar. It's like, oh, so listen to this, right? If we— there were certain things. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you can add the sugar and it doesn't count. Um, so theoretically you wouldn't put that, you wouldn't need to put that on a description ingredient, but I'd never feel comfortable with that. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, because you know that that's been— it feels like lying, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, and, um, so yeah, that's one thing to take care of. The other thing is you can get enzymes. Have you heard of like enzymes? You know what they do? Yeah, yeah, right. So you can get an enzyme. Someone said to us, right, get this enzyme and it will, um, make your breads last a lot longer. Okay, so, okay, fine. So, so we tried it, and then when I read out about what it does, I think it turns the fiber that we have into sugar, right? Because the fiber, I think— I'm not a scientist— is, I think, a multi-chain something or other. Whereas sugar is a sort of single chain or something. And I'm sure some of your listeners know much, much more than this. I'm totally wrong. But I think what this enzyme does is it breaks down the multi-chain thing into a single chain thing. Okay. So it kind of like creates sugar. Yeah. Out of something where there isn't sugar. So it takes it from a complex into a simple. Yes. Basically. Yeah. So, so that wouldn't have sugar on the label. But also the thing with that as well is, and that would raise people's, you know, blood sugar levels and stuff like that. It would, because you want to have like complex carbohydrates, not single. Yeah, simple carbohydrates. So it, it almost is detrimental to the health that way. So I think you're better off putting the little bit of sugar in and it burning off, and then just— yeah, yeah, yeah, because you don't want to change that, that chain into into the short ones. Exactly, that's exactly as I understand it. Yeah, so for me, I just want to be really responsible. Yeah. And, um, transparent. Yeah. And we will have a range of stuff that says no added sugar, that will definitely just have no— nothing to do with it. But I don't want to sort of be restricted You know, I don't want to sort of cut corners or loopholes or anything like that. Just want to be— so, you know what, it's really refreshing, Simon, that you're talking about this and you're exploring this and being really open about it, because a lot of people that make food and food, you know, manufacturers, they're not open and honest like this and transparent. And they'll do stuff and they'll put stuff on labels like it's, uh, I don't know, natural or organic or sugar-free, and it's not. And they're not being honest, they're saying what they think consumers need to hear so that they'll buy the product. But I love that you are actually stepping in the arena and going, no, actually, let's work out what's— what really works. Let's talk about it openly and then find a solution and be honest about it as well and be open and transparent, which is how we should be in the world. This is how the world should be moving towards. So I really congratulate on that because that's absolutely brilliant. I think that's good. Thank you. I really appreciate that because we could put things in some of the xylitol type, those type of things. And it would fit, you know, just like you'll see children in the streets just spitting it out going, what is this, Mommy? Oh, it tastes nice. Oh, oh, oh, this. But, but put it this way, how can something be called xylitol and be— it's just, what is the— who came up with that name, right? It's the most synthetic sounding name, isn't it? Yeah, literally. Xylitol. It sounds like a character in a Transformers movie. And it kills dogs, which is really bad. Really? Have you got any dogs? No, that's horrendous. It kills dogs. Oh my God, it's so poisonous for dogs. Oh my God. Well, that's anyone listening who's thinking about making xylitol in their cakes and cookies or whatever. And you've got a dog, do not feed it to your dog. Be careful, JJ. Yeah. We've had lots of instances where we've got a lovely little cute toy poodle, Winnie, and we've had to take her to the vets because if she has a raisin or a tiny bit of chocolate or something like that, it's like just so bad for her. So yeah, poor little Winnie suffered, but wouldn't give us— wouldn't put Xylitol in her vets. Do you know what, hearing that, if it kills a dog, it makes you think, what is it actually doing to a human body? Yeah, like, you know, no, I'm not putting anything— when I say kill, I might be— sorry, sorry, sorry, Mr. Xylitol. It's— I know it's severely poisonous and it's got all these big warnings, so it may not kill dogs, but yeah, it has big warnings, I think. So sorry, Mrs. Xylitol. Who is Mr. Xylitol anyway? I don't know, maybe he's a fictional character somewhere, who knows? No, I think I like— tell us a bit about the sugar that you're making then. So, right, so basically, um, it starts off as something called— have you heard of fructo— this is so complicated, this sounds as bad as Mr. ZyloTol— fructo-oligosaccharide? Yes. FOS? Inulin? No. They're all the same sort of things, yeah. So it is— you can get it from a few different sources, um, The most common source is chicory root fiber. Yeah. So, you know, the vegetable chicory. So it's from the root and the fiber where you can get it. This is a really funny one, right? Or you can also get it from sugar beet fiber. Yeah. No, sugar beets. Yeah, right. Okay. How the heck do you know how hard it is from a marketing perspective to start saying sugar-free, we get this from a sugar beet fiber. It's a nightmare. You can't beat it. Um, but it's all it is, it's basically 95% or something like that fiber, and the rest of it is, I think, like 4% natural sugar. And great, the fiber is great for the body as well. So yeah, in moderation. Yeah, in moderation. Um, in, in moderation. Um, but everything should be in moderation, I guess. Yeah. And so, yeah, so basically we get that, boil it into syrup, and it looks and it tastes pretty similar to agave. Yeah. So I would say it's maybe, I would say, 65% as sweet as sugar. Yeah. 85-90% as sweet as agave. Yeah, and it's, um, 140 calories per 100 grams or mils or whatever, similar thing, compared to I think 280 for agave and 400 for sugar. Wow. So it helps with calories. That's incredibly nice. But you know what's really interesting on the calorie thing? When you put like artificial sweeteners in things, I don't think— I'm not sure you can call it sugar-free. And I think it has a big— it doesn't necessarily help you with calorie control because it's giving you a sweet taste, so it's enhancing your, your need for other sweet things. So it's kind of like a Fake win. It's like a double-edged sword. The body still, even it's a sweetener, the body still accepts it as a sugar. It recognizes it as a sugar, even though it's a sweetener. And then you're still creating that sort of addiction to that taste of the sweetness as well. So you've got that. It's like a double-edged sword. So it's not, it's actually, I feel like, especially like the artificial sweeteners, it's more detrimental to your health. You might as well like just use like honey or maple syrup or agave if that's what you've got going. Or obviously your fancy— Libby's Original Syrup. Libby's Original Syrup, boo! Now we've got that, like have that instead of some artificial sweetener. Yeah, because funny enough, stevia, stevia isn't allowed to be used in— it shouldn't be allowed full stop. No, it serves a purpose. I think it's all right in some drinks, but in baking, the EU regulations are you're not allowed to bake with it. Right. And I think the background to that is that because it creates like stuff that's really sweet, that the regulatory bodies didn't want to be promoting stuff that's that sweet, full stop, because of what you just said. I personally don't like stevia. I think it's the devil's food. Oh, that taste. It tastes awful. Diet Coke, do you remember Diet Coke? Right, you probably won't remember, you probably won't. When Diet Coke first came out, it had the most repulsive taste. Yeah, really hard. I remember when Diet Coke came out. I'm older than I look. Diet Coke, I reckon Diet Coke came out about, maybe I'm totally wrong, but I'm thinking about 40 years ago. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then Diet Pepsi, that was just— yeah, planted, right? Um, but everything's so different now to then. 1982 Diet Coke came out. There we go. Tottenham won the cup that year. Do you like football? No. You know, I used to pretend to like football when I was a kid because I grew up— there's me and my sister growing up, so I was like the surrogate son for my dad. Are you from up north? I'm from up north. Bradford. I'm from Bradford. Bradford? Yeah. So I used to go and watch them lose every week. Stuart McCall. Bless him. Bless him. I remember the Bradford fire. Yes, my dad was there actually. Really? Was that 1987? I remember I was at a kid's, uh, a friend of mine's birthday party at the time on the street where we lived in Bradford, and my dad was there and he kept— he's really shook up obviously, and he saved some little boy, saved his life. Wow. So a little boy saved your dad's life? No, my dad saved a little boy's life. Oh wow. Yeah. You know what? Yeah. If I say that we feel good, like when people say nice comments about not eating, um, like eating our things because they can't have it, can you imagine how good it must feel to save someone's life? Yeah, he's a good man. He was a good man whilst he walked this earth. He was my mum. I was lucky. I was lucky. Yeah, adopted into a lovely family like that. Very lucky. That's so nice. Um, I know someone— I know a guy called Tayyub from Bradford. Yeah. Oh, Tayyub! No, I don't know. I was getting so excited. He is honestly— oh yeah, do you know such and such? Yeah. You know what? I know Bradford's near Wakefield, right? Not far. Yeah, not too far. My son loves Wakey, like Wakey Wines. Wakey. I don't know. My biological mum was from Wakefield, actually. Really? Yeah, she lived in Wakefield. Have you not come— has it— has the, you know, the Prime drink— is that— have you been— have you not heard of it? No. You know, right. So have you heard of KSI and What's the other one called? These two basically— I can't have heard of it. These two YouTubers bought this drink out. One that's called KSI, I think might be a rapper. Is this what these drinks that the kids are drinking? I think my friend Sonny has gone about it. He's buying it from the supermarkets and then selling it for double the price. Yeah, yeah, yeah, crazy! Right, and there's a guy in Wakefield called Wakey Wines that was like one of the first sort of independent shops that got it. And he's made himself really famous on YouTube and TikTok and stuff like that, I think. Yeah, Wakey Wines, and that's Wakefield. So is this a sugar-free drink? Should we be promoting this? Funny enough, it is actually. It actually is. We wouldn't sell it because it's got probably all these other things in. But I think, you know what, I don't think it is actually too bad. Yeah, the kids have gone crazy for it. Like when it's on the supermarket. Like, my son made me go to Sainsbury's when they're bringing out the special edition, and it's like finding a needle in a haystack. There's like all these people there, all these nice parents. My friend from Miami literally was talking to me about this last week. If you're listening, Naomi, oh, hello. Um, she was saying that she went with her son, and you're only allowed to buy so many bottles each. Yeah, like a 4-bottle limit or something. So she had to go in and buy them, and her son went in, and then someone else had to go in. And if you went back in again later, they threw you out the supermarket. I had that. I I was done in that in Cans and in Sainsbury's. I was doing it through the— you know what, and they made a really good point actually. I, I got 4 and then I went back to the self-service checkout because I noticed that the woman who was standing by the display of all the Prime wasn't there. So I thought, oh, I can get some more. And she said, you know what, you're really greedy. She said, you're stopping other people getting in. I thought, you know what, you're right, it's a drink, do you know what I mean? And just how many does do the kids need to sort of, you know, let every extra one that we buy is one less that someone else will have, even though they're probably getting it and then selling on a profit and blah, blah, blah. But literally little entrepreneurs in the making. Oh, my son, he's like, he made £25 profit yesterday. Did he? Right. Yeah, he's doing well. Um, yeah, no, he likes his, um, business. Has he learned that from you then? Has he watched like you guys and he's like, you said he's very passionate, he likes making coffee in the, in the store. Libby, who's got the business named after, is our daughter. Oh, that's who's named after. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah, she's really cute. Um, She's 8 and she loves her Pinky Pops. Do you know what's, do you know what's interesting? It's my friend who's also called Libby, that who told me about your store. She's like, yeah, is it Libby Mills? Libby Mills, that's right. Yeah, no, he just said it in the background. How do you know Libby Mills, Joe? Yeah, she discovered that by walking past Libby's and she loves us and she did that cross on, you know, the croissant, bake at home croissant. Oh, is she the one who— yeah, we haven't released it yet because we sold out. Yeah, literally when we put the bake at home croissants on, they get sold out so quickly and people get really, um, like, um, want to get them. So this like gold dust, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this, um, she literally put a post up the other week saying that she just got some of your croissants. She did a reel, she's done a reel of baking it at home. Yeah, but we can't post it because we— so we got more stock. Yeah, it's— oh, I got another funny-ish story. That's what we call a good problem, that you're too popular. It's just too good. Well, no, we— it's a balance. It's about— I've got another funny story. Um, a couple of weeks ago, this woman, um, and I shouldn't— yeah. Was like literally driving me absolutely mad. Um, it was first text me at 7 in the morning on a Saturday, um, and it's like 7 days of work week, well, whatever, working all the time at the moment. Um, can you get me this and that and that? I need it delivered to an address in wherever. It's really important. I was like, yeah, fine, let me find out what we got. I managed to get it all sorted. And she said, fine, no problem. And I said, look, let me find out how much it's going to cost to get there because it's quite far away. And she said, oh, I've just checked up, it's only 20 minutes. It's like, I'm like, you've just checked it out, you're in America and you checked it out in the middle of the night, right? Driving like 7 or 8 miles in London may look like it's 20 minutes, right? And it would be like over an hour or way. So I did a search, I found out it was going to cost £70 in a, um, Korea. So I text her and she was like— I said, right, can you approve this and then I'll get the order done? And she just blanked me, just totally ignored me. So I thought, fine, she obviously saw that and thought, you know, for £20 worth of pastries, I'm not spending £70. You should have just ordered an Uber to pick it up from you and deliver it. You know what, the aggravation that I get with Ubers, just because they call you, where are you, where are they, and then they call you at the other end, the person's not standing where they're supposed to be standing, and you've got to call the other person, and they're like, I can't see the Uber, and then the Uber will go, no, I'm not there, I'm by the traffic light. Honestly, the amount of stress that causes. Um, so anyway, this woman didn't call back, and then she, at 4 o'clock She texts me in the afternoon on Saturday. I'm like, literally just gone to bed, I was so tired. She goes, um, has it been delivered yet? I'm like, what? You like didn't get back to me? She goes, no, no, no, the £70 is fine. I'm like, yeah, but I asked you to like approve it. Um, and she goes, right. I said, no, it's not happened, I haven't done it, I thought you weren't there. She goes, what, you have got to get this done. I'm like, you know what, the shops are shut now. The shops are closing now. Um, there's just no way they're happening, and we wouldn't have those products in stock anyway. So she then called up the shops and found out that some of the shops had some of it and not, not enough. I'm like, oh no. So I had to go to both the shops, collect some stuff, and, um, get it sent down there. I was like, oh, it was the biggest bulla ever. But literally since then, she's literally just become like such a massive customer. So sometimes it's what you got to do. Sometimes it pays off to go that extra mile. Yeah, sometimes. I've improved customer service so much, I'd say, haven't I, Jo? I think, yeah. Would it terrify you if I told the story? No. Okay. I think that's a big thing, isn't it, of setting up a new business. Like, you've got to learn and adapt, and you've got to learn how to to deal with customers. And I think the most challenging customers you get are the ones that help you grow and evolve your business and yourself, and they're the ones that teach you how to do stuff better. So I think it's great when someone comes along and it challenges you. Yeah, because you get to see how to streamline your business better and make it work more effectively. So she's done— yeah, and then she's ended up being a great customer for you. So yeah, I'm in there. What do you do the rest of your week? I'm going to a ball tonight. Where? I'm going to a charity ball tonight. Oh, very, very— well, swanky, doesn't it? Yeah, where is that? It's, um, it is at the Mandarin Oriental, which is in Knightsbridge. Yeah, super posh. I know, a really nice frock. So it's, uh, for Mumble, it's a charity, annual charity thing. So it's gonna be a room full of women, all female entrepreneurs, all celebrating, raising money for charity, which is lovely, getting glammed up. Probably sipping a little bit too much champagne and canapés, having a bit of fun. Yeah, that's my evening. And then I'll be working with clients this week. Obviously the radio show, that'll be sent over to the station once I've edited it. Yeah. And I help people clear out their emotional blocks. So if they get— if they get stuck in their life. Yeah, I do coaching so I can do stuff around health, nutrition, but I like to do the mindset stuff. That's my favorite bit. So I love to work with like female entrepreneurs. So if they're Sometimes you can feel like it can look up from the outside like you've been really successful, but you don't feel successful, like you feel like you're struggling. And I help people work that out and clear out the blocks of that. Or if someone's just a bit stuck in something in their lives, it can be relationships or business or health or whatever it is, and find out what the cause of it is and clear it out. And it's usually some— something in the subconscious mind, a block. Um, so if something happens to you at some point in your life, and it can be like a little disagreement or your mum telling you 5 years old that you can't have a teddy bear or whatever it is, that sort of dissonance that happens creates a little mini trauma and you make something up in that moment about something and that can impact your life as an adult. So what I do is go find out when it was created, what the source is, clear it out and it just goes. You've got to find that moment. Oh yeah, and then people, let people be happy and be free of like just sometimes like people procrastinating or get a bit stuck or they just don't know which direction to go in. We'd sort of get down to what the root, what the real root cause of it is, clear it out, and then they can just like, they're free to go and live, shine, be happy, healthy, wealthy. And that's what I want to spread a bit more of in the world, really. You're such a nice person. Oh, thank you. That's really, must be really rewarding. It is, it is. It's amazing just to see like how it changes people's life. This is like, it's like true transformational work. I say that I'm not transactional, I'm transformational. So I wanna— and I don't put time limits on when I work with people. I work with them for as long as they need so we get them that end result, um, because I believe it's about, um, like, you know, a bit like you said, it's about being ethical, isn't it, really? And I wanna— like, I really care about the clients I work with. I want them to get that result and get that happiness. That's why I do what I do. So I don't put like, it's just an hour session. I don't do that. I work with— really? And, uh, I'll, you know, help people whenever I can. I do this show for free as well, by the way. This is a charity show. I put it out there to spread a bit of love, happiness into the world, help educate people, expose people to new fresh ideas, help people's businesses like yourself get out there to a bigger audience. Thank you. It's all like— when— when— so glad that I responded to your email because I'm really often like ignore things and I don't know why. Something drew me to respond. Funny how that works. Magic vibes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that's really cool. Well, we're on this planet, so I just think we should live as happy, healthy as possible, all help each other. Like, life's tough. We go through stuff in life, it's tough. So let's try and make it all a bit easier for each other and We're done. We're done anyway. Sorry, Joe. My wife cannot believe that I've like sat still for an hour. Yeah, I've done really well. Oh, she's happy. Yeah. Joe, you got any message? Joe, have you spoken to Janine? Janine, here's Joe. Hello, Joe. Nice to meet you. Hello. Is this all going out live or do you edit it? How does it all work? Oh, it's all edited. Don't worry, it's pre-recorded. Oh, okay. Never do live ever. I just want to say, obviously it's his radio thing. No, but thank you to all the, like, all our followers and everyone who puts stories out to sort of promote us and sort of on their own back. You know, we wouldn't be where we are without all the support of everyone. So thank you so much. And I'm sure they all absolutely, you know, want to say thank you for creating such amazing products as well. Thank you for coming on the show and sharing your story. But bear with me like a few days as well. I'm going to send you some other stuff because we're developing a few new things at the moment, like putting the sugar into the bread. I am happy to be your human guinea pig. Anything you want to send my way, send it. I'm a northern lass, so I like to eat. Oh no, no, no. Thank you. Thank you so much. All right, guys, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on. Okay, guys, thank you for listening. This has been the Eat Your Food Show on Women's Radio Station. We are on every week, 9 AM and 9 PM. Remember to hit up our socials at Witches Radio. I'm Ginny Newbury, @ginnynewbury, spelled like strawberry, and Eat Love Doers on Instagram. Thanks for listening. Catch you next week.