Get Booked – Amza Dar, Spider 100423

Hello and welcome to another episode of Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station with me, your host Hazel Butterfield. On today's show, we are going to be looking at the book Spider, published on the 11th of April of this year. It is the debut novel from playwright Asma Dar, and when her missing husband is found dead in a car crash far from home, aspiring actress Sophie falls under suspicion. She is horrified. What happened to Tariq? To find out, Sophie must open the old wounds of her previous marriages to uncover long-kept secrets. This addictive domestic thriller set in the Muslim community of West Yorkshire—my hometown—will keep readers on edge, and the flawed yet hypnotizing female protagonist in Spider will fascinate fans of Gone Girl and My Sister the Serial Killer. So it's that sort of a domestic noir genre. I absolutely loved it, and I cannot wait to chat to Asmaa Daat later on in the show. Now, a little bit of a look into the future about what's going to be coming up on Get Booked. First up, uh, we have Dalia and Charis by Hasti Saleh. Dalia and Charis tells the intriguing story of a forbidden love and a woman's heartbreaking struggle to reconcile her fragmented cultural and gender identities despite family dynamics, should we say. Dalia finds herself plagued with flashbacks of not intervening in her school friend Yasmin's kidnapping by ISIS in Iraq. Back in London, her brother Elias is showing perilous signs of affiliation with terrorists. All the while, Dalia is slowly opening up to a captivating new presence in London, Carys. She begins to find solace in their relationship of love and trust. Yet Dalia feels that she cannot truly move on with her life until she returns to Iraq, the place wrought with guilt Will Karis join her on this dangerous journey to find Yasmin? The author, Hasti, has been working as a GP for the past 30 years. She's of Kurdish ethnicity and spent her childhood between Wales and Germany. She's had short stories and poems published in anthologies and magazines, with Dahlia and Karis being her debut novel. She currently lives in Essex in the UK. Definitely not one to miss. None of them are ones to miss because They're all fantastic. I'm so lucky to have some incredible authors coming through to Get Booked at the moment. And another one is the author Peter Scott Presland with the book A Gay Century Volume 2: 1973 to 2001. 7 more unreliable vignettes of lesbian and gay life. I actually went to his publishing event a couple of weeks ago, and he is a very dry sense of humour man, great fun, and it really does come through in his book. And A Gay Century Volume 2— there was obviously a Volume 1— is a vivid portrait of gay life in recent history using a series of 7 playlets which are dramatic, angry, funny, and heartbreaking in turn. And the good thing is, is that they're essentially short stories you can pick up and read as and when you want to. And I love that about a book because sometimes we all are so busy that we can't conceive the idea of getting through a full book. And when it's broken down a little bit, it's a little bit easier for people to get their head around. So I like it that we do have options. Um, another book that I have not read yet, but I will have by the time the author comes on the show, and I've heard so much about this book that I just, I cannot wait. It is called Hotel 21 by Santa Rich. It is published by Bloomsbury Publishing. Noel is an efficient, friendly hotel cleaner. She impresses managers, she avoids conflict, and she steals from the guests. There you go. Noel is a model, model employee, or so she'd have you think. The trouble is, is that she can't help taking a little souvenir as she cleans the hotels where she works. Nothing of value, just tokens of happy normal lives. A lipstick, a hair clip, some tweezers, and by the time the guest has noticed, she's long gone. As she starts at her 21st hotel, she's determined to beat her record of 1 month in a 5-star hotel before suspicion falls on her. But when she meets her new colleagues, her plans are complicated. These women aren't just hands pushing carts down lonely hotel corridors. They are women with lives full of happiness and worry, pain and joy, the kind of lives Noelle has never known how to live. They make her wonder what it might be like to have real friends, people to stick around for. Will the women of Hotel 21 give her the courage to claim the life she deserves? Now, Centa Rich began her career as an advertising copywriter, and during this time she also wrote radio plays and articles for magazines. And as soon as she could, she left advertising and moved into the world of film and TV. She currently writes for TV shows in Ireland and the UK, including drama and animation. Her work has featured on RTE, BBC, CBeebies, Amazon Prime, just to name a few, and other international and European networks. She also has a feature film in development Hotel 21 is her first novel. So that's 3 for you to shove in the diary or to keep on looking at on the socials. You can follow what is happening and when on Instagram at @getbookwrs or me directly on Instagram and Twitter @nuttybutty and @nuttybutty10. Now time on Get Booked for today's guest, the author of Spider Asthma Da. And yes, many marriages do have secrets. Some secrets must be kept. To avoid a relationship imploding, but it's not always a great basis for the trust required to have a solid relationship. And once you have one secret, others follow. Oh, the webs we weave. Now, Sophie, the main character in this book, is such an addictive character, but predominantly for the wrong reasons. She's narcissistic, self-involved, self-serving, quick to anger, all traits not hugely accepted in a Muslim culture, especially of a woman, and more importantly, of a wife. Now, accidents happen, reputations need to be saved, restored, rules need to be adhered to, and bribes unfortunately sometimes just need to be paid. Asma Dar has such an enthralling way of writing characters and nuance that I felt like I kind of blinked and this book was finished. The last chapter, I tried to drag it out as long as possible because I didn't want it to end, but unfortunately it did. The book was fantastic. And now joining me, Asma, hi, how are you? I'm fine, thank you. How are you? Do you know what, not bad, not bad at all. Uh, Raring to Go. Now this book is interesting. I read it over a weekend very quickly, and I was actually away for the weekend, and my partner just kept on saying, go on, I know you want to tell me, what has she done next? And I just, I thoroughly loved it. I think the way that you put the story across— that's really nice to hear. Yeah, it's— I just, I really, really enjoyed it actually. And just congratulations on the book. And I just want to kind of find out, let's a little bit find out about yourself first. Who are you? What are you about? Well, I'm just a writer really. You know, I've just done quite a lot of theatre stuff before I wrote this book. I have done another book before as well, but that was an ebook. So yeah, lots of theatre, a bit of radio. Yeah, that's mostly what I've done so far. What's the response like to Spider so far? Because I mean, even on the book cover you have Adele Parks that's quoted an incredible new voice. That must be quite overwhelmingly fantastic for you. Yeah, interestingly, the places are quite familiar to me in the books. It's all based in West Yorkshire. Now, I am London-based, but I was born and raised for the first 20 years of my life in West Yorkshire, Huddersfield. Oh, right, okay, that's interesting. Yes, there was quite a few parts of the book where I was going, "I know there!" which I think is always fantastic when you're involved in the book. Now, Weirdly, my favourite character is Sophie because I think a character that really invokes something in you is great to experience. But all the characters were quite intricate. What's your process around devising characters? I think I suppose when I start off, I do sort of I think of a real person that I can just, just to get me going, and then it just, you know, I developed into some somebody else. But just, I think, um, you know, I don't sort of get those real people and put them in, sort of exploit them or anything like that. But it's not somebody you met down the road at a coffee morning? But, you know, it might be just some little thing, and I think, oh, that's interesting, and then I sort of build the rest of the character around that. And then do the usual thing, make little notes and sort of a little picture for each one. Yeah, you know what they're like, what they like, what they don't like. Now it would be quite easy to predict that your favourite character in the book is Sophie, but is it? Because there's quite a few characters in this that they're all strong characters with their own opinions and their own kind of tolerance and goals in life. Was Sophie your favorite, or is there somebody else in the book that you kind of think, oh, I really enjoyed writing that character? Um, yeah, I did enjoy Sophie. I think I quite enjoyed, um, the second husband as well, Feroz. Um, yes, him. Yeah, it was, it was fun to do his, his sort of voice and his, um, you know, opinions. I'm glad that he came back into the book as well, because you didn't quite know who was going to come out of the woodwork as, as the story unfolded. Yeah, yeah. Um, and it was, it was quite tricky to write those three husbands and try to give them different voices. Um, so that was— he was a bit easier because it was a bit different to the other two. Yeah, definitely, which I think that was another part that really enthralled me because all of the husbands were quite different. And it was interesting, the, the, as I said in the intro as well, the nuance of the culture brought into the book. And is that something that you've experienced in your life, these different characters and the different issues that possibly have to be taken into account in the Muslim community? Um, yeah, I mean, I don't— yeah, you hear about these sort of things all the time, so it might not have happened— things might not happen to me personally, but definitely, um, in the community or in the family, you do hear, you know, things, things that happen. Um, for example, you know, there's, um, so people being conned into marriages and things like that, that used to happen a lot before, but maybe not so much now because I think people have sort of caught on to what goes on. But, um, uh, yeah, one time it was quite a common thing. And it's quite straightforward as well, isn't it, in the Muslim community, that the goal is to get married? There's none of this ambiguity around what it is that you want out of life. And I suppose that's something that's a little bit easier to deal with. Yeah, and I think, yeah, I suppose so, yeah. It's, you know, it's either sort of one way or the other kind of thing. I think for Sophie, it's important because I think she can sort of do the things that she wants to, but sort of in a respectable way, so she won't get, you know, the community won't turn against her sort of thing, if that makes sense. Yes, however, she did have quite an inflated ego about who she thought she was and her standing in the community, and it was overriding in the way that she presented herself. And I mean, we can all be completely blasé to how other people see us, or, you know, what our aims are in life and how they're coming across. She was just so deliciously infuriating, even when people were trying to help her and she just didn't seem to kind of— sometimes she felt like she was self-destructive. Yeah, I think she doesn't, um, I think she sort of has one thing in her mind and she doesn't, you know, and everything else, whatever people are trying to help her or trying to tell her or explain, she doesn't care. She's just, you know, she's right and that's it. Yes, I feel we've come across so many people like that before. And the thing is, I think books like this sometimes point out our own insecurities and things that we know that we possibly do ourselves, and it can then cause even more of an internal frustration. Oh, that's interesting to hear. Yeah, I suppose that's, that's, that's good if you sort of can relate to it, and not even if it's in a kind of bad way, but Yeah, well, I think for books to affect you, for you to really want to keep on reading, it's got to go against the grain sometimes. It can't all be happy and fluffy, and Spider is most definitely not happy and fluffy. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've had sometimes people say, you know, why do you write sort of bad characters? I thought, well, that's you know, there are bad characters in real life, and not bad, but, you know, not perfect. And, you know, to me it's more interesting to write something that's not, you know, really good. Well, yeah, to explore the human psyche, help us understand a little bit more about other people's motivations. Now, what would be— I think this book is going to do extremely well, and I think there's going to be many doors that are opening for you. Do you already have in your mind the next few books that you're, you're going to be penning? Um, yeah, I have, I have some ideas. Yeah, I think so. Um, something for the next one I'm thinking about, and yeah, and a few other ones. Are they going to be— you're keeping your cards very close to your chest. Are they going to be based on the Muslim community or West Yorkshire, or are you going to go down a slightly different route? What do you think? Probably the Muslim community, maybe not West Yorkshire, but because it's, you know, I know that community well and, you know, I like to write about, you know, their stories and their, not issues, but, you know, what goes on. And, you know, I hope it's something a bit new and interesting that people haven't heard about as well. And so you've already done quite a lot of playwriting, haven't you? I'm having a look actually at Kali Theatre at the moment. I believe you've done quite a bit of work there. Tell us a little bit about the productions you've been a part of. Um, yes, Kali, um, do just new writing by South Asian women, right? Everything they produce is new. Um, so the first play I did with them was back in, I think, 2005. Right. Which was again a Muslim family. It's set after 9/11 and it's about the dad who's a politician and then the son— well, he wants to be a politician— and the son wants to go off to Afghanistan to fight against the British. So it was that kind of conflict. Yeah. And then the last play I did was called Noor, and it was about, um, based on a true story about an Indian woman who was a spy in World War II. Oh wow. She was a radio operator, so that was a really interesting, um, you know, real story that we've been working on for quite a while. So that's exciting that it finally went on. So you tend to write, by the sounds of it, quite strong female characters. Is that intentional? Oh yeah, it's intentional. That's, you know, it's usually about strong female characters. That's what interests me. So yeah, I like that. I like that. Um, so how was the publishing process for you with it being— um, you said that you've already written an audiobook, but you know, having the paperback physically there, um, did you self-publish or how did you go about getting this book physically ready for us? Um, no, I didn't self-publish. It was, um, published by a new, um, company. Well, it's a new imprint of Angry Robot who normally do science fiction. Yeah, new crime imprint, so it's Tura. So it's been published by them and, you know, that was really exciting for me because, you know, it's a real book. Yeah, a physical book, something that you can, uh, this is, this is the thing as well because people are doing, they're doing the ebooks and it's a lot easier, it's a lot more accessible for people, but I find that people want to go back to hard books these days to have an excuse to be away from tech. So I think it really does open the market up for writers when they, when they've got a paperback or a hardback there for their readers. And especially, I mean, I receive about 3 or 4 books a week, and often I am offered the, um, having the electronic Mobi file, and I love the thought of just being able to read a proper book, making sure I'm away from the iPad, away from the phone. And also there's something about the tangible element of a paperback where you can involve yourself a little bit more. There's not the vibration of the phone, there's not that easy accessibility to social media or checking your emails or, or whatnot. And personally, like, when I read a book, there was a few parts of this, of the book of Spider where I kept on wanting to Google the areas that I hadn't seen for over 25 years, and I would have stopped and Googled it if I was reading it on my iPad. So I think although it's nice to kind of Google away and involve yourself with whatever's happening in the book, I do like that separatedness. Yeah, yeah, I always, I always prefer to read physical copies. I hardly ever read anything on, on the iPad or anything like that. Yeah, I, I get that it does make life easier for some people, especially when they're traveling and they just don't want to have to take so many. But also, the COVID of Spider is, is fantastic. You must be really impressed with it. It's quite, quite haunting. It's quite visual. I love that. Yeah, yeah, I was really happy with the covers. Um, yeah, that's an exciting part of the process, I think. Yeah, it's going to be, but it was, yeah. So luckily you managed to get published through Angry Robot, through Jaturra Books. How long was the process for you to be offered a contract and for you to actually give them a book and then to go through it? Because the process takes so long, going through it myself at the moment, and there's various editing stages and proofing and book cover approvals and whatnot. How long did this take for you? I think from when we signed, it was about a year. But yeah, I think we'd been doing quite a lot of editing before that with my agent as well. So there were, yeah, I think a couple more drafts we went through after that. So it wasn't too long, but you know, there were other things in between happening. So yeah, a few months, I'd say. A few months. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, there's quite a few budding writers out there that listen to Get Booked, and there's always— it's getting harder to get published, but there are new indie publishers out there that are making it a little bit easier for people, especially who are debut authors, and there's always that, you know, do you go direct to publishing yourself through Amazon or self-publishing, which are all slightly quicker routes. Yeah. But there, there's so much to think about. So there, there's benefits to, you know, the traditional publishing and self-publishing. And it's just, I, I do gather that a lot of our listeners like to realize and understand the different processes and how long it takes with the different routes. So, so thank you. Um, now I would like to ask you, there's a question that we always ask here for Women's and Men's Radio Station. We are very focused on contributing to positive states of mental health and well-being. Do you have a couple of tips that you think might be helpful for our listeners on how to achieve a good level of mental well-being? Oh gosh, I suppose what I think, what, you know, when I'm feeling a bit sort of not upset but a little bit miserable, I think talking does help a lot as well. It might sound really sort of a bit of an easy thing to say, but, you know, just talking and telling somebody and then sort of forgetting about it. I think that's important as well, not dwelling on what's, what's making you feeling a bit sad. Yeah. Um, and then just other things like going out and having a bit of fresh air, and something that's probably I don't do enough of myself. Um, but yeah, I think nature and sort of just appreciating the world, it makes you sort of uplifting your mood. It's quite good for that. Do you know what? I'm seeing a correlation in the fact that there's so many people are feeling quite down and quite exhausted at the moment because they're not being able to embrace nature as much. Because for some reason the UK has been stuck in February, um, and we're sticking with the rain and the wind. And it's just by this time we're normally— there's slightly better spring weather. And I'm seeing how it's affecting people because they're not being out in nature and getting to just be out and about a little bit more. So yeah, I appreciate what you're saying. Now, are you a book reader yourself? Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, what are the favorite books that you've been reading at the moment? The last one that I read that I really enjoyed was Bullet Train. Oh yeah, is that the one that was put into a film, or is it slightly different? I think it was the same one. I haven't seen the film yet, but I bought the book a few months ago and then the film came out, so I haven't got around to seeing that, but I really enjoyed the book. Okay. So it's about, it's about 5 sort of killers or assassins that are on a train together. They're all on there for different reasons and they sort of come across each other on this journey and then just people keep dying and It's really basically who's going to end up alive at the end of the book. So it's kind of a— and it's very funny. It's got some— the character's quite crazy and, you know, I like that, a dark sense of humor. So I really enjoyed that. Yeah, I do. I do love a dark sense of humor, actually. I keep on meaning to watch the movie, but I didn't actually realize it was a book first. So maybe, maybe I shouldn't watch the movie because it always— if the book is better, once you watch the movie, it kind of ruins it for you, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. That's why I thought I better read it first before I watch the film. Yeah, my kids keep on trying to get me to watch Bullet Train because it's got quite a few of their favorite actors in it, so I might have to tell them they're going to hold off, have to hold off for a little bit. And something else that I like to ask all my guests here on Get Booked as well, if there's somebody who they admire in public eye, which is getting increasingly harder to find. But I'd be interested in— yeah, I was thinking about that, I was thinking about that. It was hard for me to think of somebody. Um, what's somebody I thought of actually, um, is the— I don't know if you— the, um, Imran Khan, who was the Pakistani, um, Prime Minister who's been sort of Well, he's not anymore, the ex-Prime Minister. Um, because that's quite— being from that, uh, you know, Pakistan myself, we do follow sort of what's going on there, and it's quite a dodgy government. And he did try to sort of fix things and, um, you know, he didn't think a bit of honesty and, you know, think about people, unlike what they're doing at the moment. So I think that would be somebody Yeah, I think it's very hard for politicians to be honest. So when you find one that's at least trying, then that's great. No, I'm just Googling him at the moment, um, and I'll definitely give him a little bit of a read. I just think it's nice for people to focus on people out there who are trying to do good rather than filling our social media feeds with people that just infuriate you and kind of add to our anxiety. So thank you for that. Now tell me about what's going to be happening over the coming months with Spider. Have you got publishing events planned and various tours happening? Uh, no, not at the moment. Nothing that I, uh, know of yet. So we'll just have to see what happens. Well, I'm sure there's going to be lots happening with the book. It is great fun. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And indeed, every marriage does have its secrets. It's just as to how many you can actually get away with before you absolutely let everything implode on you. Um, as in, thank you so much for joining us on Get Booked for Women's and Men's radio station. Best of luck with the book, and I do believe you're going to do a little bit of an extract reading of the book to end the show with. Uh, yeah, we'll do that if that's okay. Yeah, yeah, that'd be fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us and all the best of luck with the book, and hopefully we'll hear from you when the next few come out. Oh, thank you, thank you, thanks very much for having me in. It was really nice to talk to you. Really great to talk to you too. I'm looking forward to my day. If all goes well, I might finally embark on the adventure I've been yearning for, an artistic journey that means almost everything to me. I drive Zayn to school, then go straight to Café Sprinkle on Great Horton Road, near Bradford University. The place is popular with students and serves a Pakistani-British fusion menu: chicken tikka shepherd's pie, masala chips, chilli chocolate fudge brownies. The decor is a dodgy synthesis of American diner meets Pakistani truck style. Colourful images of the kind found on Punjabi lorries, gaudy flowers and birds are emblazoned across the walls. Customers are seated in round red booths with white piping. A jukebox in the corner is playing an Abra hit, a jubby song about girls from Lahore having fun at a fairground. It's an eccentric mix, but I like it, especially when it's bustling with students. Makes me feel young, trendy, and intelligent too. I order a coffee and a rose and cardamom Danish pastry, take the script out of my bag, and smile. It's not a leading role in a major movie, and I haven't even got the job yet, but it's something after all this time. An audition for a rice advert for an Asian satellite channel, and I've only got 2 lines to say, but it's a solid opportunity at last. A chance of visibility. There'd be a small payment, but I'm not doing this for the money. I don't need to work. It's a mere stepping stone in my mission to triumph as an actress. It's 11 o'clock when I get the first phone call. "Hello sweetheart," says a familiar voice full of overblown honeyed charm. Suleiman. He's a distant relative of my ex-husband. I close my eyes. "How are you, my dear?" "What do you want?" I say. "Come on, you can be a bit more friendly than that." "I'm very busy, Suleiman." 'Oh, if you insist,' he says. 'I thought I'd give you a bit of advanced warning this time. Planning a little trip in the winter. I need everything to be sorted out before then. Unfortunately, my last investment was a disaster, so I'll have to make up for it.' 'When?' '3 months' time. The regular amount should do it. And I hope you don't need reminding, don't try anything silly.' 'You know what'll happen.' I cut him off. I don't need to hear the threats. It's a ghastly arrangement that I'm forced to keep to, and we both know I'll comply. That was an extract from today's guest Asma Dar and the book Spider. Quick reminder, Spider is a debut novel and when her missing husband is found dead in a car crash far from home, aspiring actress Sophie falls under suspicion. She is horrified. What happened to Tariq? To find out, Sophie must open the old wounds of her previous marriages to uncover long-kept secrets. This addictive domestic thriller set in the Muslim community of West Yorkshire will keep readers on the edge, and the flawed yet hypnotizing female protagonist in Spider will fascinate fans of Gone Girl and My Sister the Serial Killer. Thank you for listening to today's Get Booked with me, Hazel Butterfield. Please do pop on to womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked to listen into previous shows, and as ever, please get in touch, hazelbutterfield.com, if you want to be featured on the show. Right now it's time for a little bit of a sneaky peek of last week's show. Hope you enjoy. Joining us now on Get Booked is today's guest, Gabriella Brown, with her book on uncovering the hidden truths behind our behaviour at work. While reading this book, I recognized a lot of patterns, both relevant to work or personal life, and often overlapping. It is rare for our behaviour to be isolated to work or home. I really found the non-fiction self-help yet relatable narrative delivery style of All That We Are a great benefit to humanizing all that we experience at work for those on all levels of the rung. How the similarities of work situations can replicate issues we struggle with and bat against in our personal life, especially inherent issues from childhood that are hard to decipher. Our trauma has many unconscious outlets. As managers or company owners, the responsibility to succeed and care for our employees is immense. Blame gets thrown about to express our many worries for ourselves and each other. We need to learn to unpack and communicate. Most of us just want to feel heard, appreciated, and excel in whatever way we choose. That is helplessness. Is destructive, whether that is in work or our personal life. Thank you so much, Gabriella, for joining us on the show, and congratulations on the release of the book. Oh, thank you very much, Hazel. Thank you for inviting me. It's lovely to be here. Well, do you know what, as I said in the, in the intro, the book is so relatable. You kind of feel like you're reading fictional stories, but it's real life just put across to you rather than in very strict case studies, which is always not always that easy to not only relate to but to digest properly. It feels a little bit too, too stagnant. And I love what you've done. I totally agree. And I worked really hard actually to get stories, you know, to get good at writing stories. I had to learn how to write stories, and they're anonymized and they're composite stories to protect confidentiality, of course. But nonetheless, there's huge amount of fact within a story form. Yes, I— that definitely came across. And also your own personable style came across as well, because it's your work as well. And, you know, even coaches can make mistakes, or they can suddenly be triggered by something, or, you know, we don't always get it right first time when we're trying to decipher what's going on in a complete stranger's mind or a dynamic at work. And, you know, it's often trial and error. And I love how that came across in— well, it was just very human, and I think we need a little bit more of that to help people identify and see why it's so important. That's really lovely to hear. I, I did feel that it was really important to be myself, given that the book's called All That We Are. I need to bring me to the book as well, and I need to show my, my humanity and my vulnerability, because otherwise, why am I suggesting to other people that they need to look at that themselves and show some of that if I wasn't prepared to do it myself? Completely. Yeah. And how, how about telling our listeners a little bit about who you are and, um, your experience in this department? Okay. So I work with leaders, with teams across very, very different organizations, corporates, arts and culture, health, education, et cetera. And I coach individuals, but I also work a lot with teams. And what I do that's a little bit different is that I apply psychoanalytic and systemic thinking to really uncover the hidden truths behind our behavior at work. And that means looking— particularly the psychoanalytic means really trying to take on board what is going on unconsciously, that it's affecting us all the time, in and out of work, of course, because it's part of who we are. There's a lot of projection going on in the way that we behave at work, and when we, we sometimes think that it's somebody else's issue or somebody else that's treating us unfairly, when in fact they've just triggered a past memory or a past pattern, and we can kind of run with it, and it can get a little bit uncontrollable, can't it? And if we don't sometimes sit back or like, or have the help of a coach to break it down and tell us that actually maybe they weren't doing something to try and be underhand or to disappoint you in some way, shape, or form— everybody's got something going on. And, you know, even this week at one of my jobs, I was, I was like, getting really annoyed with my colleagues because I felt like I was losing control of what was going on. And then I realized I was letting it get all out of control, and it was just, it was a past issue that really triggers me and sends me off in a spiral when in fact, you know, I think one of them was just having a bit of a poor day and wanted to be quiet, and I saw that as a slight against myself. And we can just, we can run with these unconscious thoughts and exacerbate a situation that actually could blow over, or a bit of communication could solve it. Exactly right. And we do get— our buttons get pressed in different ways, and often we're unaware that a button is being pressed. Yeah. And that's when it can go a bit out of control in our head. So it spins into all sorts of places, like exactly as you say, that you might have felt slighted when nothing— there was no intentional slight at all. It was in your head, and we can all do that. And things can go wrong, but it can be so helpful if we can, like it sounds you were able to do, stop ourselves and catch ourselves and kind of think, hang on, hang on, hang on. Is this my stuff? Is this, is this really happening? Does the other person mean to do that to me? Or is it my stuff? And, and equally thinking, hang on, what, this person isn't normally like this. What, what's going on for them? So try and also be compassionate to other people rather than immediately taking umbrage or whatever. It can be a minefield though, because unfortunately many of us do work in toxic environments and we don't all have great bosses or people that can communicate properly what is going on. Also, with the, as managers, sometimes they can't communicate everything because it would be to the detriment of the employees if they knew anything and everything that was going on. It's sometimes managers, CEOs, they have to put out fires to protect their staff. And so people are left in the dark. But also, there's nothing to say that, you know, Jenny on reception has to tell people when she's dealing with a health issue because she wants— it's her own personal business, but it is going to affect the way that she works. But if people did know, they'd probably treat her better. But that's, that's a lose-lose situation because nobody's getting to do what they— what feels comfortable with them. And sometimes we retreat into ourselves when something's going on because, as I said before, it triggers something. There's so many things that go on and there's not much we can do about it. And in, and in that situation, that's when it's good to enlist the help of a coach to help us unpack that and find different ways of hoping, I suppose. I think that's right. It can be very helpful to enlist the help of a coach, either with teams— I mean, I, I don't consider what I do with teams to be coaching, but of course you can do team coaching and that can be very helpful— or with individuals. But I think also organizations can do a lot to try and make things a little bit less of a minefield. And it is a huge minefield, exactly as you say. I mean, we all, we can't avoid bringing all that we are to the workplace because that's who we are and it comes with us and we can't leave it behind and pack it under the pajamas with us, with, you know, when we go to work. Pack it under the pillow is what I'm trying to say, with our pajamas where we go to work. It just doesn't work like that. But I think— no, it doesn't. It just doesn't. But if we can recognize that we are complex, and we all are complex, and we have constructive part and we have a destructive part, we have differing pulls within us that can pull against each other, so that conflict can be internal and unconscious. As equally as it's external, the conflict between people. And I think if, if bosses, and some bosses, as you say, are not very good, some workplaces are very toxic, but there are plenty of bosses who would like to help their staff, perhaps more than they feel able to. And sometimes it can just be a simple thing like creating spaces where people and check in together without always having a strictly timed agenda, a business agenda. So Jenny on reception, if she wanted to, could say, actually, I'm not having a great week. I'm dealing with a health issue. She might not want to, but she might, and that might be enough just to say that, not anymore. And then people will treat her a bit differently. It's hard though, isn't it? There's so many people do struggle to open up like that, but even just the slightest recognition sometimes. I mean, occasionally I need to retreat. I sometimes get a bit low, whether it's hormonal or just things that are happening at home. And occasionally someone will say, oh, you look a bit miserable today. I'll just say, honestly, I am a bit, and I prefer to just keep myself to myself rather than annoy anybody or come across as mardy and make problems worse. And they'll just go, yeah, fair point. I get it, songs we know. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And then they probably also know that this is a day where you would rather be left to yourself, and they won't intrude, and they won't take it as a slight, which they might do otherwise. Yeah, and, and, but also it is nice sometimes when there's so much going on at work. I like how quite a few of, um, the instances you talk about in All That We Are. You're just— you're not just— you are a conduit for a lot of companies and for groups to kind of air their grievances rather than talking at their colleagues and being confrontational. You kind of— for them to go through you, it makes it a little bit easier even though they're all in the same room. Oh, totally. It does make it easier. And I have, you know, partly I bring an outsider's perspective and I'm neutral and I'm not one of the groups. So that of course makes it easier. And also I've got years of training and years of experience. So I can guide them through very difficult conversations in a way that they wouldn't be able to do on their own because it would just get overheated and flinging all sorts of things at each other. And they, they can do some of the overheating with me, and I, I let them to an extent, because otherwise you can't see what the issues are if you just stop it. Well, but it's managing it. It's managing it, exactly. It's managing it. Yeah, I did like, um, one, one of the stories What would you call them? Stories? Case studies? I say stories because they feel like stories the way that they come across. Yeah, yeah. And I loved it how you actually managed to break down what was going on with one of the clients where they were just constantly miserable and constantly being that kind of bug in the system who just— They just didn't want to be there. And you said, do you want to be there? No, I hate it. Leave then. Well, no, but, but, but, but, but, but. And then you say, well, But sometimes you need to break it down. If people are that miserable, they need to leave. If they're not that miserable and they've just got into an unhealthy pattern of being negative and they really do want to stay there, then they need to focus on that and try and just reform pathways and their relationship with their job if they genuinely want to stay there. And sometimes we just need to break down what it is we're really thinking. And we do build unhealthy habits. You know, we know that having that bar of chocolate after dinner isn't going to be the best— oh well, after lunch is going to give us a slump, but it's an unhealthy habit that's just sitting there waiting to happen. And we know things are wrong and we know things aren't going to work in our best interest, but it's just— it's a neural pathway that's been formed that has to be retrained. And that's why we need to learn to communicate in one way or another, whether it's with our colleagues, our family, ourselves. You know, I'm a huge advocate for if you don't want to speak to somebody else, write it down, decipher your thoughts, like kind of like a brain dump. And just the more we engage with what's going on with our brains, with other people or just with pen and paper, the more we can kind of understand ourselves a little bit more and help ourselves. I absolutely agree. I think the more we become aware of ourselves and our own triggers our own patterns and some of the contradictory parts within us, the more agency we have over what we're doing rather than just being controlled by those unconscious patterns. If we can bring some of them a bit to consciousness, we're much more in charge of them. I absolutely agree. And then I think the story that you're talking about was with, uh, a center where they were treating addicts. Yeah. Is that the one? Yeah. And the people addicted, men addicted to drugs or alcohol. And what finally became clear in the staff team was that several of the staff were addicts in recovery. And I finally realized that they transferred their addiction on a substance to an addiction on the organization. And there was this one guy who was just so contemptuous of the organization. Yeah. And I started to say, you know, it must be so painful to be here, think it's so bad, and not be able to leave. And eventually he left. And it was best thing for him and best thing for the organization and the other team because it was very poisonous, his contempt. But he hadn't been able to recognize his pattern. And then he did start to realize, oh my God, I hate it, why am I so stuck? And then he unstuck himself. Yeah, yeah. But the thing is, other people's negative behavior sometimes, um, is toxic, and other times it's just a bit upsetting and anxiety-inducing. A bit like the situation with The Deputy Headteacher, where she had— she was about to lose essentially her best friend at work, but she'd also lost— was losing her husband as well to an affair. So it's not, you know, he's, he's not going completely, but he's completely abandoned her. And everyone was anxious about the effects on her, and it was affecting how people would treat her and how they would deal with the situation. And she was not doing anything wrong. She was just in a really horrible situation that everybody else could— was absorbing. Exactly. And also she wasn't telling her senior team for very understandable, obvious reasons. But what she wasn't realizing is how they were picking up that things weren't okay with her, and it was causing them a lot of anxiety. And when we worked together and I saw her on her own, I saw the deputy on his own, and I saw the team. And gradually she said more to them and then, and they also said more to her, like, we're worried about you. And it was so helpful and she was doing absolutely nothing wrong. Yeah. She was a great leader. Her leadership was a bit off-color at that time because she'd got so much going on. And she was trying to lead the school through change. And of course, she was going through intense change herself. And change always brings about loss. And she was going through terrible loss. So of course, it was hard for her to lead this big change program in the school. But, but she did. And they got there. And they managed to work their way through it and acknowledge the loss, including the loss of the deputy leaving. The thing is, our home life and our work life are probably the most, the two most prominent areas of our life. Yeah. And they do intertwine, even if we don't know that they do. And yeah, they're the two things that you possibly need to work on, otherwise you take these anxieties home, you know, if it's not going well at work and you take it out on your family unconsciously. We don't necessarily— we don't want to do that. We— there is— we really need to find a way to be able to help what's going on within our psyches and try our best. The more we understand— I say this regularly on the show— the more we understand ourselves, the more armed we can be. Yes, totally. Yeah, and I think the book has a variety of different stories, enough for somebody to identify, for anybody to identify with. But I am quite intrigued, um, which is your favorite story in the book? Oh gosh, before, um, I don't know, I'm very I suppose I do really like that one that you mentioned about the school, and I also really like one called Life and Death. Really like that one. Life and Death, is that the one towards the end? Let me just have a— No, it's much nearer the beginning. It's actually, and it's an organized, it's actually chapter 3. And it's an organization that's been closed down. Oh, right. Yeah, with the teenagers. Yes. Yeah, okay. But actually, I have to say, I'm rather fond of the chapter stories. I mean, I spent so much time with them that I am fond of them. And then some of them, like the one Belonging, which is chapter 9, is absolutely my own story, and that was a big surprise to me. To include myself as much as I did in the book. That must have been quite cathartic, writing about that, because it explains so many unconscious issues that possibly determine the way you react to certain people or situations. Absolutely. And then I'm, I'm more in the book later on, in, in stories much later on, I'm, I'm fully there again, not just my reactions in my work, but me in my personal personality. But Belonging was the first chapter I consciously suddenly thought, oh, maybe I should write this from first person. Yeah. And I, you know, I've had a very thorough— I've been a patient in psychoanalysis, so I know myself pretty well, very well. But you're right, it nonetheless, writing that chapter was still cathartic. Yeah, I— do you know what, there was— I think I took something from nearly every story, but the one that