Welcome to today's Get Booked radio show here in our Covent Garden studio, supporting women's emotional well-being, opening discussions, and offering support. And today joining us in the studio is a co-author of the book Gender, Sex, and Gossip in Ambridge. Kara Courage, what an incredible name! Thank you very much. You knew with a name like that you were going to have to write something to make sure that your name was up everywhere. Yeah, that will become a superhero, which is what I think my nephews think I might be. If I had a penny for everybody every time somebody said, is that your real name, etc., etc. But yes, would you like another penny? I can always do with another penny. Is that your real name? It is my real name. Brilliant. I very nearly considered marrying somebody just because his surname was Champion. Fantastic. It turns out he wasn't a champion. No. Anyway, I digress. So the book Gender, Sex and Gossip in Umbridge, obviously a book about the women in Archer. Absolutely. Uh, tell us, how did this idea come about? Oh gosh, we're going back a few years now. Uh, it started from Twitter. There's a really big Archer listenership on Twitter, particularly for the Sunday omnibus. But myself and Nicola Headlam, who's my co-conspirator in all of this, we were linked by somebody and said, you've got the same sort of research interests and you're both fans of The Archers, you should talk. And so we did. And at the time there's a really big storyline which really coalesced our interests, our research interests, which is around sort of urban planning and policy and community decision-making. And we were, as so many people do with The Archers, say, "But it wouldn't happen like that!" And that then led us onto a conversation of like, okay, so if we were going to do an academic paper on this, what would it be? And we came up with some titles, which is long forgotten now. But out of that came the idea of let's do a conference because we knew there was a lot of academics out there that really like listening to The Archers. And it was a really fun way to talk about our research, but actually really just to talk about The Archers. And being given a license to do that. And that was 4 years ago, and we're here now. We've just done our 4th conference in Sheffield the other month, and this is our 3rd book. So yeah, so the, um, the conference community that you were talking about, is that the academicarchers.net? Yes, it is. And so that is— everybody within that community is a research fellow. Uh, the people that get up and talk tend to be academics, and they might be talking about their area as a geographer and talking about the geography of Ambridge. The River Am on the maps has moved about 50 meters in the last 10 years, which is unheard of in geography terms. But also people talking about, you know, sort of looking at sort of issues within the family and healthcare and all sorts of things. But the people in the audience were just all Archers fans, and it's people from all ages, all backgrounds, all over the world, in fact. Yeah. And this year we had around 200 people join us. In Sheffield, which was quite something. I mean, that's the power of the BBC, isn't it? It is. But I think it's also the power of, of The Archers. I think when you get into The Archers and if you don't listen to The Archers, I do put a kind of health warning over it because it will take over your life as soon as you start to listen. But it really, it really does. And you begin to really care about these characters. But also now because of social media, us as fans can talk to each other all the time. So that kind of those friendships are online. They've turned into in real life friendships as well. So there's a real sort of stickiness to The Archers in that sense. And it's and it's all quite positive as well. I mean, it's still forming a community. Actually, you've got so many community members. Are you not like eligible to start an Archers religion? It has been like cult-like status has been attributed to The Archers and in a very reverential way by some. And then some of my friends just going, oh my, Lord, here she goes again. It's quite interesting because we were saying just slightly off air that just before we came on, that my auntie is a huge fan and she— the fact that I hadn't listened to an Archers episode until I'd read this book, I mean, the levels of arguments are up there with politics. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But why don't you care about your country? I know I do care about my country. Well, then why don't you watch The Archers? I'm like, okay, okay. The amount of times it's ended up with her storming off in an Uber. But it's It's really true, like that 7 o'clock listening time, or 7:03 to be very precise, is really sacrosanct in a lot of families. And there's a lot of some of our sort of younger group within Academic Archer saying, you know, we just grew up with it, it was on. And like for myself, actually just through osmosis, suddenly realized we're an Archer's fan. And others have sort of bemoaned to us, it's like, you know, I thought that my mum loved me, but when The Archers goes on. I know that that's not the case because I'm banished. Yeah, exactly. I don't care what you do, just don't do it here. It is, and just having to be in complete silence when it is on. I was at a dinner party on Sunday evening and I was speaking to my friends about the fact that I was going to meet you and we're going to be chatting about this book, and my friend said, 7 o'clock? She didn't. My mum was very loving, but she's like, do your homework, do something, go somewhere else. And it was just— and it's just part of people's upbringing. It's— it is. It is part of people's upbringing. So for me, I grew up in a farming community. I hated The Archers because it always seemed to be on when I was a child. That was just constantly that wallpaper sound of The Archers. But particularly as quite a precocious child as well, it was a time that I had to be quiet and the, you know, the adults weren't paying me any attention. So I hated The Archers. But the whole 15 minutes of being quiet. Yeah, it was just too much to bear. And, you know, I grew up in the countryside. I had, you know, miles and miles of, you know, fields I could have gone and played in. But it was because it was, you know, to me as a young child, it was dull, it was boring. It was just adults talking about farming, which is all I heard all the time anyway. And then we've had also some, you know, some daughters and sort of say, yeah, no, they just kind of ground me down into being a fan of this show. And some others say, I had to do this to be able to actually bond with my mum because I realized it was such a big thing for her that I had to have it in my life too. I'm like that with my kids and Emmerdale. My youngest is like, why is Cain doing that? I'm like, that's it, sweetie. You want to talk about match tax? That's fine. And I will do that as long as you do half the time with Emmerdale. Yes. Yeah, yeah. We have some mums bring their daughters to conference and they're so proud. It's like, here she is joining the cult. Yeah, but we're also a little bit more impatient, I guess, and we're not— we don't necessarily understand the intricacies of what's actually happening in The Archers. It's not just about the farming community, the underlying themes and how soap operas in general shape social issues and what we get to talk about. And it's all masked with drama and gossip and Susan doing this and whatnot. But in— I mean, I'm a soap fan, so I'm going to say this anyway. But soaps have such a huge responsibility to discuss social issues. Hence why, you know, a lot of soaps that go out there, at the end it's like, anything that you heard in this programme, if you need to discuss somebody, they have to provide somewhere to discuss it. 'Cause yes, it's entertainment, but they are discussing real life issues. Which is what this book has kind of broken up and discussed in great detail. I mean, it's, the best way to describe it is, It's a quantitative and qualitative analysis. It is. And I hope, I mean, we, it's not a dry, boring read either. There's, we have a tongue firmly in our cheeks when we're talking about The Archers, but you're absolutely right. It doesn't shy away from addressing real issues affecting people's lives today. There is, I think, this impression of The Archers, particularly by non-listeners, of it being this out of touch kind of bucolic image of this rural idyll. It really, really isn't. And a lot of the characters there, because we've sat with them through the entirety of their lives, we know them just as well as we know our best friend. And we— they go through the complexities of life as we see them as well. I mean, The Archers also— I mean, it started as a means to disseminate information post-war to farmers about how to increase crop yields. Who would have thought, you know, nearly 70 years later we'd be sat here talking about The Archers. But it really shifted in— so 1975 was the first time that women started to scriptwrite on The Archers, which seems incredibly late in the thing. But anyway, at that time that really shifted how the female characters were talked about and it brought in through that a whole other realm of storylines. The stuff that we, we know and live every single day then began, you know, began to become part of The Archers. And the way it's kind of morphed, especially over the last 10 or 15 years, it's— I mean, one of— what was one of the tests that you discussed in the book? I've forgotten the name of it. The Bechdel-Wallis test. Yes. Where it's how many conversations are with just women where they're not talking about men. Yeah. And the percentage in which The Archers managed to attain— and because it's not just— it's not an Archers thing. It's a— yeah, it comes from film and it comes from a a feminist comic strip, The Archers rate past it about 42% of the time, I think, which is actually really high. There's a lot out there that scores absolutely zero. But you're— we're here also talking about family units. So the women are often talking about the men and the men are often absolutely feckless and useless. So of course they're being talked about. But there are some men— I know, exactly, exactly. It's so true to life. No blokes were harmed in the making of this radio show. Sorry. But yeah, but also, I mean, the listenership, was it more predominantly female as the years have gone by? It is. Somebody's done their PhD thesis on this and the listenership is mostly over 50, mostly female, mostly white, and mostly, a lot educated past compulsory education. Which is kind of indicative of a Radio 4 audience. I mean, at the last conference we had 6 men, bless them. 6 old men. And were they sitting there going, can I go to the pub afterwards? Well, no, I mean, we all ran to the pub afterwards actually, but we did commandeer the toilets just to make all of them absolutely transgender. You didn't have to put a PlayStation in the corner to make sure they'd stay? No. Do you know what? I haven't even got onto my questions yet. We're gonna go over to a very quick break and then when we come back, I want to talk about the important role of gossip. Yep. In Umbridge and how it's not just about women going, oh, did you see her over the garden fence? We're gonna have a very quick break. We will be back in a few minutes with this week's guest, Cara Courage. Such a brilliant name. Love it. Absolutely love it. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons Live on Women's Radio Station. Hello. And welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie May Is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy, and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being, and we're talking all things autism. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Falguni Desai of Action Coach. Are you a business owner with more than 5 employees? Do you want to grow your business? I'm a London-based business coach who helps small and medium-sized businesses to grow and make a profit. I will help you identify the strengths and weaknesses in your business and then work with you to improve it using a structured framework. 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I am joined by Cara Courage, the co-author— great name, I'm gonna have to say this every single time that I introduce you over the next few sections— co-author of Gender, Sex and Gossip in Umbridge. We've been chatting away and we haven't even yet got through to one of my questions. It happens, it really happens when you start talking about the archers. It does, it does. And what I want to talk about is I've read the whole book, obviously, imagine if I hadn't, but the concept of gossip, that's what I want to talk about in this section and how gossip is not just about, you know, Nora Abate in Coronation Street chatting about who hasn't done their washing properly. It's there, it forms so many functions. Why did you choose to focus on gossip for this book? At the time, well, Susan Susan Carter is one of the main characters in The Archers, and she has a much maligned reputation as being a gossip and being quite overbearing, being really nosy, really into everybody else's business, and being quite judgmental in that as well. And there was— she's the kind of character that divides people. People love her or hate her. But actually, I think for a lot of us, we had a lot of sympathy for her. And we were really lucky enough to have the actress who plays Susan Carter join us at one of our conferences. She's the most academic archer of them all because in her real life, not that playing Susan isn't her real life, but she's a research psychologist. She's a person too, you know. She is a person too. But she's just as an academic and in playing Susan, she just had this amazing insight. A lot of The Archers is about women's conversations. Talked about just earlier. And it is about— it's a plot device for the Archers. It's like, oh, did you hear so-and-so did this? Oh, did they really? And the plot moves on. And it's a way to get us really wrapped into Ambridge as our own social network as well. We can hear what everybody's doing, what everybody's up to. But Susan's a really, really major character. So the book really focuses on her and her story and trying to explain really why she is how she is. Well, her narrative is what helps it, because on radio it's not like you can visually see what's happening. There can't be many kind of— it's not like in the other soaps where there can be silence and still know exactly what's going on. Yeah, she's a vehicle for narrative as well. She is. For otherwise you'd have to record every single silly scene. So, you know, yeah, she can basically bat out 3 or 4 scenes in one silly little line. Yeah, yeah. But one of the things I found quite interesting, it was probably one of my favorite sections in the book, is how gossip, it's not just about someone being mean, it's about somebody trying to form who they are within a group. Sharing information forms relationships. I mean, some of my best friends, we were best friends because we have a terrible sense of humor about other people. Yeah. And I don't mean we sit there and kind of are mean about people, we will just kind of share our likeness as to who we are, not being nasty about them, but just it's how we form— I'm trying to think of the correct word without swearing. But it is, it's how— it's that talking about others to other people is a really basic form of human conversation, and it's how you begin to make friendships, to learn whether you can trust somebody or not. And similarities, that was the way that you figure them out. It is absolutely. And it's, yes, how you find your own tribe. And particularly for Susan, though, there's a lot going on with that. So she's kind of chastised by others in, in The Archers, but also a lot of people, you know, listeners in response to her for being this gossip because of— there's a certain amount of classism in that. She comes from a very working class, probably, you know, maybe lower working class family background. She sees gossip as knowledge is power. And it's helping her. She wants to better herself. She's so fiercely protective of her family and wants the best for them. Her knowing what everybody else is up to gives her that power, elevates her status within, or as she sees it, elevates her status within Umbridge. So there's, I have a lot of sympathy for her in that, I get that. But also that traditional sort of, when you mentioned Nora Batty, that kind of, and we talk about it in the book as well around the gossip is actually often synonymous with the battleaxe, who that's a middle-aged woman of a certain class. And there's ageism, sexism, classism wrapped up in all of that. And actually, Susan, in her character, she's not doing anything that any of the other characters aren't doing. It's because of her class. It's because people see her having social pretensions and how dare she want to be socially mobile that they chastise her for it. But you have some of the other characters talking about when somebody was upset after a miscarriage, for example, that's fine, but they were talking about her behind her back, so why isn't that also a kind of gossip? The men are major gossips in Ambridge. Huge, huge, huge gossips in Ambridge, but you would never use that word against them because they are men, but they are some of the worst for having a loose tongue. Because it's seen as a female trait, and it is, it's up there with, um, I mean, I mean, archers aside, when women do something when women get upset, that's just because how women are. When women are talking about somebody, they're gossipers, they're being mean. And this is what we're kind of battling against. And this is why I think this book is so important that so many issues are discussed and broken down in statistics to really clarify and bring it home. Yeah. The reality of what does go on. Yes, it's going on in The Archers. The book is about The Archers. But it can relate to so many different scenarios, programs, real life. Absolutely. And, you know, it doesn't just relate to middle-class white country Britain, whatever. Yeah, yeah. And this is why it's like a Bible of information, isn't it? There is a really big, whole big library of Archer's books out there. It's been written about a lot. But for us in particular, it was that what does it say about us and why are the characters doing what they're doing? That's always behind the questions that we have of that program. And just as soaps help us understand what our lived experience is and what our society is like, hopefully, you know, us going into more detail within the book kind of supports that kind of understanding too. I agree. And I do think soaps have such an important role about opening discussions. And again, somebody like Susan, who is constantly talking, she's the one that's opening these discussions. She is, she is. So the one that's the most kind of loved and hated is the most important role. Absolutely. And she sits— her job is— one of her jobs is in the village shop. Now, that is such an important role to have as she— I mean, she doesn't ever hold back on telling anybody how important that job is, which can get very annoying. But she is— she's absolutely at the heart of the village. And without her, I think a lot of the relationships wouldn't actually really function. But I read somewhere that that is the only social interaction that some people get, not, not just on The Archers, it's just at home, you know. Maybe people are kind of, it's just expected that they will say hello and possibly chat about, you know, the day, and it can be all that they get, and it's quite an important personal connection. It is, and even though it might be like, "Oh, did you, you know, see so-and-so did whatever?" and that might be seen as frivolous or shallow talk or unimportant, you're right. For a lot of people who be living socially isolated lives, in rural areas or urban areas, that kind of conversation is actually maybe the only kind of, you know, contact they have for the whole of their week. So I don't want to sort of denigrate that kind of, that kind of conversation at all. It has a really important social function. And, and, but she does know it. And that's the entertaining thing. She does. And I mean, this is also the thing with The Archers that it has, it has amazing humor going through it. And Susan can be this also used as this amazing comedic character. And but I think, you know, we have a lot of sympathy for her. So we're slightly laughing at her, but most certainly laughing with her as well. She is a really— she's such a well-realized character. The scriptwriters know her so, so well. And so when she is doing something that's like, oh, God, typically Susan, there's humor in there, but it's done with such love. Which is why people fall in love with it and they are so addicted to it. I know. Well, I've managed to cover one question. I've got another thing. Something that I do— I did find quite important and I didn't actually realize about before I read the book is the role Archers takes in discussing women's diversity in work roles. Now, namely STEM careers. Yeah. Now that's quite important because the percentage of women in the Archers who have STEM careers is so much higher than the national average. And that's quite, you know, female positive. It is, it is. There's a whole thing where if you look at one level, surface level of the women in the Archers, they either have an inherited business or inherited wealth. And, you know, to be a successful woman on your own terms is a bit of a running joke that you have to leave Ambridge to do that. So some of the most successful women from Ambridge have had to leave Ambridge to become successful. Now, that's something I recognise. I couldn't do the job I do where I grew up on Exmoor, just impossible. So I had to leave to find my own success. But actually, when you look at the jobs that women are doing, they are definitely, you know, they are within those STEM subjects. They are often the head of a business or the partner in a business as well. Which is important to give off that impression's the wrong word, but you know what I mean. But it's true, if you think of farming, the stereotype of it would be of a very male-dominated profession, and The Archers is showing that actually it isn't. And it's also showing a whole variety of different roles that women can play within farming and agriculture, horticulture and production. And this is quite a common theme, and I know I keep on going back to Emmerdale. I do watch Coronation Street and EastEnders as well. I like to keep the northern side up as well as the southern side up, but You know, it's a woman that owns and runs the farm in Emmerdale. It is a woman that owns the main country house and runs the biggest business. And until you actually realize that and how relevant that is, soaps are playing an incredibly important role. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 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You're gonna have to make sure you go and catch up on our website at womensradiostation.com a little bit later. Uh, we've been chatting away to Cara Courage, the co-author of Gender, Sex, and Gossip in Ambridge. I keep on looking at my screen just to make sure that I get them the right way round. I don't want some Archers fans going, "Oh no." You get some tweets, yeah. How dare, it's like blasphemy. So we've been talking about the role of gossip in Archers and why the book came about. The book is basically a qualitative and quantitative analysis discussing, well, everything to do with women in The Archers. And throughout this section, I'd like to talk a little bit more about the mental health elements, how The Archers has tackled a lot of, you know, this miscarriage and eating disorders and struggles in society, strong women being vilified and whatnot. And it's quite an important role that not just The Archers, but a lot of programs have to play. So, I mean, it's kind of changed since probably about 1974, 1975, when women really kind of started writing for The Archers. What do you think is the most— do you think they tackle mental health well in The Archers? I think the jury is probably out on that, to be quite honest. There's an interview in the book with one of the former editors, Alison Hindell, and she said it's— they won't necessarily name somebody or give somebody a diagnosis of a particular mental health condition, but they will show a kind of a broad range of different emotional mental health registers. So that's one thing. Another, though, is when there is a mental— a very explicit mental health issue within the program. It can be used as something as one of our academic archetypes. Which is called a narrative prosthesis. So it's there as a prop, basically. So somebody shows some symptoms of depression, say, some people then gossip and say, "Have you seen so-and-so? What do you think about their behavior? How do you think they're feeling at the moment?" Things will then come to a head and the person will go, "Yes, I am feeling depressed." And then they will go and get help. And then they're suddenly better. Oh, so whilst on the one hand, and this is something which is happening, one of the characters at the moment, Elizabeth, and lots of reasons, a really long storyline really pushing her into the place where she is suffering from depression. And actually the scriptwriters in this sense have actually kept this storyline going on. So at the moment she's in therapy, she talks about being in therapy, she's been quite open to other villagers about— she's saying, yes, I'm— I at the moment I am suffering from depression. Depression. That's the gossip element as well, because you've got to get the information across. You do. You absolutely do. And this, this whole storyline with Elizabeth, I think, has been a bit of a test, actually, that it didn't just finish like she's gone to therapy. That's it. Move on. Actually, this is still showing as being present in her life, as something she is still experiencing and going through, and that she's on that, that journey to improving her mental health. But that isn't necessarily always, always the case. And sometimes it has been used as a bit of a prop device. To, yes, shed a light on a particular issue that they want to be, you know, society issue that they want to be talking about. But it's kind of like, you know, right, done that, done, dusted, on to the next thing. It's quite hard to do it justice though in such a small— It really is. Yeah. I mean, it's all very well to say, I mean, there are so many programs that kind of gloss over it so much or they speed it up a little bit. Yeah. But that's because mental health is something that can be there forever. For a long time and for a lot of people, kind of the everyday resilience that they have, that might be them thinking, okay, I'm fine, I'm coping, I'm fine. And certainly the outward impression that people would be giving would be that there's another storyline at the moment which is really heart-wrenching for me because I was a young carer and there's a character, Mia, a 13-year-old girl. She— her mum died last year. Her father is useless and has quite happily let this 13-year-old take on the maternal caretaking role for the whole of the family. And she completely broke down on this. Now she was— and we heard it as a listener, we could hear her narrative on this— the building stress for her thinking, right, no, I've got to do this, got to hold everything together. You know, Dad's forgotten to give the money for, you know, the youngest sister to go on a school trip, I think it was. So she had to find all of that, and she actually stole some money to make that happen. She's had to go out and get bread, for example, because the father had, you know, not in his purview to think that they need bread at home. So she's taken all of this on, and actually the family were saying around her, oh, we're so proud of you, your mum would be so proud of you, it's so great that you're helping out. But we as the listener are going, no, no, can you— none of you see this, honestly? So that's been And that's been a really— I mean, we're just in the middle of that storyline at the moment. But when she— the actress that plays me, it was a fantastic episode. She did it so well of just her explosion of like, I cannot do this any longer. But that's one of the sides of mental health where you do explode and you build and build and build. But a lot of the— a lot of mental illness and issues with wellbeing it makes us kind of retreat, which basically is silence, which you can't do on the Archers. Which you can't, and you can only do by somebody saying, have you seen so-and-so recently? No, I haven't. So again, it's that gossip function and actually just people just checking in with each other. That happened with Elizabeth. So this, you know, sort of one of the current storylines with Elizabeth, and she did retreat. Her usual behaviors started to slip, but nobody was really seeing that because she hid herself away. And I mean, I know this as well from my own experience. You cover it up with all sorts of excuses, whatever comes into your head first, or a long narrative story that you'd have built up yourself about why you can't go and do that thing, why you can't be there with your family at that particular time. And it took, it took one sympathetic family member in particular to actually spend some time with her and very slowly she then did say, actually, this is where I am at the moment. But that her depression had actually started building from, I think it was about 5, 6, 7 years ago when her husband passed away. So there's a really slow burn in that storyline to get to where, where Elizabeth is now, which is, you know, something I recognize for sure. And that's great that they did a slightly longer story, a lot longer story, and it is opening discussions, but again, it's still entertainment. So they have to kind of keep it going, bang, bang, bang. And that's why they possibly don't have the ability to do it justice sometimes, but at least they can open discussions. But it also then means that when you finish listening to your latest episode, you sit down, you gossip, you talk about it. Oh, so-and-so. You do, absolutely. The Helen and Rob storyline, I think, is like kind of the archetypal one of this. So a story that built over 3 years of marital coercive control. And at first, we— the whole listenership was gaslighted by the husband's male character in this scenario. And then we started to hear, and it happened over a real-time basis, and it was phenomenal. The Archers had never done a storyline like that before. But actually, they can't keep doing that. We as listeners also can't keep listening at that kind of intensity or pace. But I think what— and it's what soaps do and what kind of story telling does. They do the one-offs. It's a kind of exemplification. It's like, here is an idea, here is a suggestion of what this particular situation may be like. And certainly with the Robin Heynes storyline and with Elizabeth as well, it's triggered a lot of people going, oh my God, that was me, or actually, that is me right now. And it's helped a lot of people kind of come to terms with some stuff and to be able to talk about it with their own friends. And it's, as I said, opening up discussions. I mean, the book again, Gender, Sex and Gossip in Ambridge, it is gossip is so incredibly important and something that I experienced in the last couple of weeks with the gossip element, which is exactly what's happening in The Arches, is a few of my friends friends, we're all sitting there kind of gossiping about one of our friends and we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you haven't seen her. So you haven't, so it's not, I just thought I was busy. Yeah, yeah. And then he said, actually, something's wrong with her though. Yeah. Oh, we need to do something about that. Oh, so this happened? Right, okay. And because of the gossiping, we suddenly went, oh, this isn't what we thought it was. Actually, it's not to do with busyness, there's a few lies going on there, which means they're trying to hide. We need to actually embrace this and try and find out, get to the bottom of what's going on. And that was from, in theory, trying to be gossipy, but then we suddenly realized, oh, actually something's not right here. Yeah, yeah. And it is, but that's also something which is shown. And I mean, a lot of the characters in The Archers, we we hate them and we love to hate them. And you wouldn't necessarily want Kenton, one particular character, coming along to your door and saying, can I help you through your depression? But what has happened, it has shown, is actually Elizabeth, by being open and honest— I mean, it took her a while to get to that point, but that actually people are sympathetic and there is a support work out there for her. She's seeking professional help, but there's also that informal support network of her family and that she can actually say, I have depression at the moment, and people are like, oh, okay, you know, and some people haven't quite known what to say. But, you know, her world hasn't stopped. And if it can happen to you, that might be what's happening to me. Exactly. I want to listen in to find out how this moves along. Yeah. Do the Archers offer, a bit like the other soaps, at the end do they say, if you have any grief or anxiety— They have done, in particular during the Robyn and Helen storyline, they did. Yes, because that was— there was some very traumatic listening at that particular time and it was really triggering for a lot of people. So yes, they did, of course. Yeah. And that's such an important role. And I mean, the Archers has been running for nearly 70 years. It's quite funny at the conference, somebody stands up and says, you know, I'm a mere novice in this. I've only been listening for 15 years. People get less for murder. Exactly. Right, we are gonna go for a very, very quick 3-minute break. We will be back with the final section, and I want to find out where we can get hold of this book. It's just been released, and we will be back in a couple of minutes. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan, and welcome to Love Lessons Live on Women's Radio Station. Hello. And welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie May Is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy, and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being, and we're talking all things autism. Women, the possibilities are endless. 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Women's Radio Station can give a voice to your brand with a wide range of sponsorship opportunities, including individual programs. We can tailor your experience to you. For more information on how you can sponsor a show, Go to womensradiostation.com. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Welcome back to the final section of today's Get Booked program. We have been gossiping away like no one's business. We've been talking to Carol Courage about gender, sex, and gossip in Ambridge. I can honestly say that I had never heard of an episode of The Archers, despite my aunt's protestations. Hazel, how dare you? How are we even related? I'm surprised you even get invited to family gatherings. I mean, no, I know it's only because I bring really good wine. I've managed to stay in the family, but up until I read the whole book, and then I started listening to the arches because it was kind of, it's quite unique for me to read the whole book because I've done quite a few courses in the whole psychological elements and qualitative and quantitative analysis, and so having a psychology degree, reading this book, I was just sitting there going, brilliant. Yeah. It kind of really, it really got me. Yeah, yeah. And also then it was interesting, it's a bit like read the book first then go watch the movie. It is a bit, I'm surprised it's I mean, I've got to warn you though, don't start listening to The Archers. I don't think you're supposed to say that. I know, I'm not, it's totally off brand, but honestly, it will suck into your life like you wouldn't believe. No, it is brilliant, it is great, and we have a huge amount of laughter in this, and the book has it as well. And when we all meet as a group, you know, there'll be people at the conference knitting away, laughing away, and it's fantastic fun. Brilliant. The Academic Archers conferences. Yes. So good. Watch out, watch this space for a new religion. Star Wars or Trekkies, move over, the archers are— they're gonna take you on. So this book, The Women in the Archers, such strong themes of mental well-being, mental health, and just just how the roles of women in the archers shape what's going on in society and all kind of open up discussions of what's going on in society. The book was released on the 5th of April. It was. And where can we get hold of it? Everywhere, basically. You'll find it in all the high street bookstores and in the usual online places as well. It's published by Emerald And if you go in there and put the code word gossip in, you'll get a nice little discount on it too. Nice. I like that. Brilliant. And you actually co-wrote the book with Nicola Headlam. Tell us a little bit about how you two got together and how you worked together to put this book. Well, yeah, we got together over Twitter and— best relationship. Yeah. And we did. We then decided, okay, let's, let's do this. Let's do this conference on the arches. Loads of academics out there. Were bound to probably get a day together, maybe, of stuff to talk about. And we did the first one, and over 110 people turned up. People didn't actually have a seat and had to sit on the steps in the lecture hall. And we realized at the end of that we'd created something quite special. And certainly it was one of the funniest days of my adult life, actually being in a room full of Archer's fans, taking it all incredibly seriously, but laughing at ourselves doing that at the same time. And that was back in 2016. So we've just done our 4th conference. Nicola and I, we live in different parts of the country. We work in different parts of the country to each other. There's a lot of Sunday morning telephone calls to each other just after the omnibus. Lots of very quick, I'm just about to get on a train sort of conversations as well. But we have an amazing team of volunteers that help us do it too. And of course, this is We do this on a voluntary basis. It's not like we're academics and we have funding to do this. We do this because we're fans of the show, basically, and any excuse to get a load of us in a room talking about The Archers. But it's quite a beast. So we do our normal jobs and then the rest of the time we're doing The Archers, which is an important role. I mean, can you imagine? It's probably one of the most important roles I've ever had. Yes. Now, as I said about my auntie before, if for some reason she says something to annoy me and I want to really annoy her with an Archer's comment, what's like blasphemy to an Archer's fan? Oh my gosh, it depends who you love and who you hate, really. If you're the one then that takes the good wine to the party and say your auntie doesn't like it, then you could say a kind of quip along the lines of, well, Lillian would like like it, and that would be quite damning. Right, okie dokie, I'll give that one a go. Yeah, give that one a go, yeah. But there's a lot of characters there that you can kind of, you know, use to disabuse people with as well. Sort of a Jazza is a good character to liken somebody to. Susan as well, we've talked about Susan already, but of course because she has this much maligned reputation as being a bit of a gossip, She's an easy one to throw out as an insult to somebody, unfortunately. So Susan. So Susan. Perfect. Would that work? That would really work. Oh, Monique, I really appreciate that because I do like to wind her up. I hope she's not listening. Or she's being holier than thou about, I don't know, some organic food or something. It's like, well, Pat would never do that. Yeah. Or that's so Pat. Right, Lillian. Pat, Susan, I'm on it. I'm on it. I'm just going to completely rip it to pieces. We're a happy family. As we've discussed in the other 3 sections, there's such a strong theme of mental health, mental wellbeing in women in the arches. What 3 tips could you give from studying the arches and just in your line of work to anybody about mental health and mental wellbeing? Firstly, talk about it. Definitely. I think a lot of the characters in The Archers, as soon as they have actually opened up, as trite as it may sound, you know, problem shared, etc., then that's, that's, that's worked. And there's some— there are some very close female friendships in The Archers. So turn to those around you, as hard as that may be. For those also, you know, there is professional help out there. It's certainly in rural areas quite difficult to access. And there's been talk around that as well at various times in the program. But the help is there. But I think for those who are, who are the family or friends of somebody who is suffering, you know, depression or whatever, it is— it's not necessary to talk about them behind their back. But as we talked about earlier as well, that kind of checking in, have you seen that person recently? Yeah, it's okay to have those kind of conversations, but actually you've just got to let that person talk to you at their own pace. You can't force anything through. And there's been some quite awkward scenes in The Archers where people have tried to do that out of, you know, really good intentions and because they hate to see that person suffering and they just want to make them better. Mm-hmm. But actually they're on their own journey on that. You just being around, being in the room, that kind of support, listening, and listening is quite often all that they want you to do, and that can be enough. But trying to force them down a route and kind of like, but you're doing this now, why aren't you better? Just hold back on that kind of thing. Yeah, quite interestingly, I mean, I went through something quite similar about a year and a half ago, and you want to isolate yourself And it was because my friends were gossiping about me that they went, "She said she saw you and that she's just busy and tired." I'm like, "No, she hasn't seen any of us." And that's when they suddenly went, "Right," and they were banging on my door saying, "Stop lying to us. Come out, chat to us. You can just sit in the room and be quiet if you want, but you need to be surrounded." And I was like, "And that's what friends are about." But if they hadn't have gossiped about me, they wouldn't have figured out that I was basically lying. Yeah, and we, you know, as a listener, we can hear that and people have, you know, they recognise that behaviour in themselves or in others now as well and that, you know, helps them resolve things in their own life too. And I think there's sort of a final bit of advice by saying to somebody, and Elizabeth has done this recently, saying, 'I'm depressed.' Nothing— that was all okay, you know, nobody, you know, her world didn't explode, nothing stopped, people just went, 'Oh right, okay.' They didn't particularly know what what to say to that necessarily. They didn't, you know, but she said it, she feels better for saying it, and she's been able to, you know, her day just continued. That is absolutely possible to do. And it's just a bit of honesty sometimes, because otherwise people are like, what's wrong with her? Yeah, she's just told you. Yeah. Um, and the best thing I think is if you don't know how to deal with somebody who is struggling with depression or some sort of mental illness, no matter what form it is, anxiety, sometimes just say to What do you want me to do? And they'll quite often know. Yeah. But people don't even think to ask the most simplest of questions, which is, you know, instead of forcing them to do something that's not going to work, it's not going to make them retreat anymore, just ask them. And it's because it comes from that, you know, it's, you know, you just want to go in and you want to make that person better. And it can come from that really good place. But actually just to sit to that person, just listen, And just sit in silence when they need that as well. That can be, you know, enough actually. I did have a friend once who had something quite horrible happen to her about 2 or 3 weeks ago. And I was like, "What do you want me to do?" She goes, "Well, I won't mind you listening, but then I want you to come out with your really dirty sarcastic sense of humor." I went, "I'm already there. I've already got some stuff lined up." And it was like 11 o'clock at night and my poor neighbors could just hear us cackling. She's like, that's just what I want. If you can go the ruder, the better, that'd be great. I'm like, not a problem. Well, with Elizabeth right now, that's too soon for her, but that's what we're all doing on Twitter behind her back on social media. It's— yeah, and it's kind of entertaining at the same time as still talking about it. And it is. And there's a kind of, you know, there's a kind of bit of a, you know, dark sense of humor in that as well. Yeah. We've got like just over a minute left and I feel like— how long did it take to put the book together? Oh, ages, but actually really only about 6 months. And are you gonna be writing another one? Yes. And have you written other books as well, haven't you? Yes. So we've got 2 other archers' books and then I've got my own books as well, but yeah. And where can we find out more about you? So academicarchers.net is the place to go. There's Academic Archers on Facebook on Twitter, those usual places. The Facebook book group is really, really lovely, but there's loads of information and all the links and videos to the past conferences on academicarchers.net. It sounds like it's a cross between a book group and a wine club. Yes, definitely. I might join it too. See, I'm gonna have to watch the— it's all your fault. Sorry, I'm so sorry. My kids are gonna be coming to your door going, are you the one that made mum abandon the on a Sunday morning. Yes, that is me. There's a help group for the kids as well. As long as they don't ask at 7 o'clock of an evening, I will— that's fine, I'll answer the door. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you in the studio. Thank you, it's been great. I've had so much fun. Please come in again, especially when you do your next book as well. And thank you for listening. Make sure that you listen in daily, 5 AM and 5 PM, to Get Booked. Women's radio station is a fresh new broadcasting platform driven by love and passion connecting women around the world in a global network. Is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education. We aim to show the individuality of every woman everywhere providing opportunities and a platform for your voice. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Liz van Linden, a UK travel consultant for Hazelmere Travel. People come to me as they want unique experiences and a personalized service. This happens from the moment that they inquire till they come back home. I work with luxury tour operators. You can contact me on 07825 44 12 99. 12, and Liz, spelt L-I-S, at hazelmayortravel.co.uk. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. 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