Get Booked – Matthew Ross, Death Of A Painter

Welcome to today's Get Booked radio show, supporting women's emotional well-being, opening discussion, and offering support by the incredible writers out there. And just as a little bit of a reminder, we are all recording our shows remotely at the moment, so sometimes the Wi-Fi gods out there, they do let us down, but I'm convinced they're going to be on our side today. But we're all adapting, we're all trying to do as best as we can. I'm Hazel Butterfield, this is Get Booked, and today we will be chatting to Matthew Ross, the author of Death of a Painter. It's the first in a new series of darkly comic crime fiction novels featuring the builder Mark Pointer, aided and hindered in equal measure by his trusted crew of slackers, idlers, and gossips, and the lengths they go to to make and earn a living. So hello, Matt, how are you? Hello Hazel, hi, I'm very well, thank you. And now your book has just been released, so this is your first ever book, isn't it? It's my first ever book, it's something off the bucket list to finally see a book published, and what a time to do it, right in the middle of a worldwide pandemic, isn't that just the perfect timing, isn't it? Well, weirdly yes, because people are wanting to get involved with— I mean, reading's like in the top 10 of hobbies that people are trying to get back into again. People don't have time to read a lot of the time, and it seems to be, I think it really is quite a good time to release a fiction book because all these self-help books are kind of driving us a little bit crazy, stuck in our own heads anyway, aren't they? Yes, yeah, yeah, I was sort of saying that slightly tongue-in-cheek because when I was given my publication date, that's all well and good, and then my publisher's been actually really positive about about the whole thing, as you say, because it's a small independent press. It's Red Dog Press who have been absolutely amazing. I'm in such safe hands with those guys. And he's been— the guy, the chap there, the director, Sean, has been so positive and so excited about the whole thing because it really does level the playing field for the smaller independent publishers out there. Because nobody's going anywhere. Nobody's going anywhere, nobody's in the shops or seeing billboards, so for digital online publishers and small publishers, it's a level playing field. And he's really excited, and so far all the reviews and bloggers have been really kind of positive on it, so I've got a good feeling, yeah, a good summery feeling. Well, do you know what? I mean, I finished it, absolutely loved it, and that's why I got in touch and tried to get you in on the show. But one thing I want to note is your PR people as well at Literally PR, Helen is fantastic, and because they've not— they don't have the time to do other parts of what they normally could do with book launches and going out doing book signings, they're coming up with these creative ways on social media to engage people, and I'm loving it. I'm loving watching what they're doing, and it's giving people the time to kind of go in different creative directions. Yes, yeah, it is really strange because everyone with Red Dog and Helen at Literally PR have been so amazingly encouraging and supportive and collaborative, and I've not actually met anybody face to face yet because we've all been locked down. It's all been done remotely, so I'm looking forward to when all this is lifted and normal life resumes and we can all get together and actually meet each other in the real world. Will life be back to normal though? We don't know. I think there's going to be a lot of changes out there. Yeah, that's what my wife and I were talking about because we've always commuted, we've always worked up and around central London, and it's always been the way that it's an hour in the morning to get to work, an hour back again, sitting on trains, sitting on tubes.— and now we're just as productive working from the corner of the house. Do we really want to go through all that again? And it's even got to the stage now where we're getting a bit broody for puppies and thinking, oh, maybe we can get— we've always been so sensible, we'd like a dog but we can't be home every day. Now we're thinking, well, actually, when all this goes back to normal, I'm sure we're going to be at least working 50/50 now, and we can give a home to a dog. So I think, yeah, things are going to be very different for people in the new world. Well, there is this talk that, you know, the government are urging people— well, companies— that if there is the opportunity to work from home that bit more, that people should try and do this as a bit more of a lifestyle plan. And I mean, in terms of changing lifestyles, I do have a dog, and she's going to have to go through therapy to adjust to us not being in the house all the time. Yeah, it must be strange for pets, mustn't it, who just see you in the mornings and evenings. But well, yeah, yeah, and I think there's so many people going, right, we need to get a dog because we need to make sure if this ever happens and we have a dog in the house, we've got a reason to go out and exercise. Yeah, so, um, yeah, I think things are going to be very different, uh, going— well, hopefully it'll be different going forwards and people good things out of this? Well, I think some of the good things that I think that people could actually take out of this pandemic is, you know, the fact that people have been allowed to go out to exercise has been kind of forcing people to go and do exercise because that's the only thing they were allowed to do. People that wouldn't normally be involved with exercise might be addicted to it now, and they might realize obviously there's been issues with people that weren't as healthy struggling to actually deal with COVID but So hopefully people will be a little bit more healthy, but likewise books have been entertaining for people and they've also given them something else to think about. I mean, one of the reasons I started Get Booked is because of the cathartic nature of reading and sharing somebody else's life, or being a distraction, or finding out about other people, learning something new, and hopefully that's another one of those hobbies that's just going to stick and it will help people's mental well-being, I'm sure of it. Yes, yeah, I totally agree, and it's also the weather's helping immensely as well, isn't it? Because there's nothing nicer than an hour or two sitting in the garden if you can do that with a book, and just, it's like being on holiday, isn't it, for some people? Well, it is for some people. I mean, as you were saying before, just before we came on air, you've got a couple of children, so have I, and we've got quite a strict routine, and It really works in that, you know, from 9 till 12 we do schoolwork, and then we have lunch, and then we just kind of go out, walk the dog, and then from 3 on, if everybody's done what they were supposed to do, they're allowed to go on Tech because even the teachers are saying it's not just them doing, you know, brain-numbing games, they're actually socializing with their friends that they don't get to socialize with anymore. And so So basically between 3 and about 4, 4:30, I can sit out in the garden, read books. I know that they're not going to come anywhere near me because they've been given the golden tech time. Fantastic. How's it working out for you and your children? Because your children are a little bit younger than mine. Mine are 10 and 13. Yeah, my 9-year-old, he's in Year 4. He's very keen when his mind's on it, but he can feel a little bit lazy, so I've got a deal with him now that for every hour he spends on schoolwork, he gets paid back in PlayStation time. Yeah, trade-off, great. So most mornings now he's very active and busy doing all his various tasks in the home learning. The younger one, who's only 6, is Year 1, has now gone fully feral and just doesn't want to commit, and he's quite happy just running around in his pajamas all day long. And, uh, being disruptive. So, uh, he sounds like my spirit animal. Yeah, so now the sun's out, he's, um, he's quite happy just being outside running around and digging up worms and that kind of thing. Oh, see, the school of life. Yeah, yeah, we call it Forest School. We stick him out in the garden with a— let him dig the beds. It's all— he'll be doing chemistry, biology, uh, all the different sciences. Yeah. And then you can teach him home ec when he has to go and tidy up all the mess he's made. Yes. Yeah, the paint is very messy. Yeah, anyway, I digress. Death of a Painter, this is what we're here to talk about. Now, very, very tongue-in-cheek, very tradesman-like, tell us a little bit about your background and why you were able to completely hone in on the whole tradesman kind of colloquialisms and the style of the whole book. Okay, well, yeah, as you said, Death of a Painter is my first novel. It's been described as a darkly comic crime caper, and I think it's come at the right time because I don't think people want too much death and gore and gloom and doom at the moment. They've got enough of that going on anyway. And, and, uh, I think also for the past couple of years as well, the way the politics has been going and the culture's been going, things have all been getting a bit too heavy and a bit too serious and a bit too, um, aggressive, I guess. So I think at the moment, uh, certainly from the feedback I've been getting from people, people have appreciated a bit of, um, levity in their, in their murder, sort of a few jokes in their, in their death. And also when people are in these kind of situations that we're in at the moment, they, they do hark back something a bit nostalgic and a bit familiar. So, um, it's not what you'd call traditional cozy crime, like the Body in the Library kind of thing, and it's not, and it's not, um, Scandi Noir slash and burn, but it's kind of somewhere in the middle. People have said it's sort of to the tone that might appeal to perhaps like the Death in Paradise audience or that kind of audience. So it's a bit of a lighthearted escapism kind of thing. Well, it's very tongue-in-cheek, isn't it? And it's kind of, I mean, people are getting bludgeoned and yet beaten up into an inch of their life. And yet you don't go, oh wow, that sounds gruesome. You're like, oh, what quip is he going to come out with now? The thing is, it is quite accurate in a weird way. I'm not saying that, you know, all painters go around bashing the hell out of each other, but I mean, you know, my brother's in the trade. He's a sparky. All his mates are painters, tilers, builders, you name it. And if they kind of broke a foot, you'd be hard-pressed to get them to go to the hospital. They just go, "Ah, we'll sort it out. It'll be fine tomorrow. I've got to be back on site," sort of thing. And it's It's kind of, you know, you just get on with it and you deal with your own stuff. And, you know, in a pub you've got the pub situations bang on. There's always like a painter, this one, this— they're all called different nicknames. And, you know, it's kind of like going home a lot of the time. Thank you for that. Yeah, that's something I try to do. Yeah, yes, it is that way. So it's kind of— it's— I'm trying to think of something, give you an example of what it's like. But yeah, essentially there are murders, there's a mystery involved with it, but it's also very much just about the people getting on with their own day-to-day lives and how this impacts them. And the reason why it's set in the building trade is— well, it's twofold really. One is because that's my own personal background. I left school when I was 16, went to work for a local builder and have sort of done that kind of thing ever since. But also because I, I've always been such a big fan of— a real kind of anorak fan of crime fiction and detective stories, and ever since from an early age. But I don't know anybody actually in the police force itself, and whenever I've tried in the past to write a detective story or a police story it just sounded so— it's just like very bad fan fiction, like a very bad imitation of a Ian Rankin or a Mark Billingham. Yeah, yeah. Because I don't know the— these guys, they know the processes inside out. They've got, um, the experience and the, the insight, and I don't have that. So I just thought, well, I'll write about what I know and the people I know and the characters I've come across over the years. And set it in that way, in that respect. And then as I was doing it, I was thinking, well, actually, this could have, have legs in it, because the sheer joy of being a small tradesman is the fact that you could spend— you could spend half a day on a job, just even a few hours going to fit somebody's outside light, for instance, or you could spend 6 months on a job doing a hospital fit-out or an office fit-out. So the fluidity of the character is just immense. He could be anywhere at any time. So for the next story, he could be somewhere and then somewhere else and somewhere else. So, um, but also I've always liked— doesn't it? Yeah. And I've always liked stories like, um, Anne Cleaves' Shetland series, for instance. So in Shetland, the, um, in the Shetland series, the location's almost like a character in itself. And then there's a core contingent of characters, sort of 5 or 6 characters, who are in every story. And it's how the landscape and the environment and the people in it affect this little core of characters. And if you read through the series, they— the characters move and progress. It's very, very slowly, but very— they do progress as their lives evolve. But it's still accessible for any— for a new reader to come in at any point in any book. And pick it up and follow it. And that's kind of what I was aspiring to do, so something like that. So that's where I'm going from, really. I want to create a nice little series going on there with the same sort of characters and how they move on and how things happen. Well, I don't know if you've ever come across the author Kerry Wilkinson and the Jessica Daniels novels. Have you heard of those? I've heard of those, yeah. I haven't— They're absolutely fantastic. I mean, he's completely nailed it in terms of characters. But I read one, the first one, and then I thought, oh good, another one's coming out, brilliant. And now he's now on the 15th book. I've read the 15th book. Okay. And it's like family because they're all a bit kind of the same kind of attitude. She's based in Manchester, she's a superintendent, and I can kind of see the Mark Poynter series kind of going in that direction because you just get to know them like family eventually, just because of the way they that they speak to you as well. And it's that there's an unpredictability as well in the way that you write. I didn't know where this was going. It was literally, I was about 30 pages towards the end and I actually gasped out loud and went, "Oh man, why didn't I even think that that was where this was going?" And I was quite impressed with that. I can't say much more without ruining it for other people, but I was like, Ah, amazing! Fantastic, lovely, thank you very much. No, you're welcome. And then I don't know whether this was intentional or not, but obviously it's based around Mark Poynter and predominantly the trade is male anyway, but did you intentionally write all your women as basically hard-asses? They're all, apart from one that's blatantly struggling for obvious reasons, The women are more in control. Okay, that's good to hear then. It wasn't a conscious decision, no, but I'm glad to hear that, thank you. I was quite surprised because I was looking over it. I mean, I'm writing a review of the book as well because it will go out on— I do book reviews on my website, and I was thinking, right, No, you're very welcome. And so basically I was like going, and I was looking at all the women, went, wait a minute, there's her, whose name I can't say, who is basically very much in charge of what she's doing. There's the mother and the child binder and all this lot, and they're all kind of in control and paving their own way and kind of know what they want and, you know, whether it's right or wrong. I was like, oh wow, actually, especially Perri. Yeah, I like Perrie because you don't kind of— you're a bit shocked by the way she tackles things on, but it's actually probably bang on accurate rather than the predictability of going, oh well, he seems like a bit of trouble. And yeah, you've written the characters, the female characters, which is what I was looking into quite keenly, brilliantly. Oh, that's great, lovely, thanks, I'm pleased with that, thank you. Yeah, what does your wife think? Did she read it and say anything about the female characters? Sorry, did who read it? Your wife. Yes, yeah, I mean, yeah, she was pleased with the Peri character, we both were, and also she was the only one I had a sort of I made the conscious decision just to make her the brains of the outfit, really, that she's the only one who actually knows what's going on, and the rest of them all bit sort of, oh well, what do we do next? But, um, yeah, so Perry's the brains of the outfit. But I like, I like Perry, and I think her and Mark have got, um, yeah, quite an interesting future together. Oh good, I hope they do stay together. I want to see that flourish, especially now they've got his and hers kitchens. Yeah. Yes, I've, um, sort of got number 2 in, in the bag ready to go now. But, um, yeah, I've got— so number 2 is ready to go, but I'm, I'm having second thoughts now. I'm wondering whether to COVID it up a bit or not. That's my little dilemma I'm facing this week. Oh really? Yeah, but surely if you finished it, can you just go and slip bits in? Is that even gonna work? Well, I'm, yeah, I'm not thinking of setting a mystery in the time of COVID but I think to make it— this is, this is the quandary I'm in— to make it, um, sort of believable in, in the history of their lives. He works in the building trade, so he'd have, um, found things very difficult at the moment if he's been stood down and finding it difficult to earn at the moment. She's a nurse, so she'd be in the front line. Uncle Burns, an old fella, so he'd be at risk, and he'd also, if he's living in Spain, he'll be locked down in a foreign country. So I'm thinking perhaps it should be mentioned, so if it's set, just change the setting so it's slightly just after, so they're talking about, about in the past, but then I'm wondering, does that then, does that then date it and like fix a pin in it, which Is that a good thing? It does a little bit, but the only— I mean, the thing is, it's weird because do you mention it because it's normality and people will be able to, like, identify with it? But also, over the next 6 to 12 months, so much is going to come out about the coronavirus and what happened that do you want to touch on something you don't know is right at the moment? Yeah, that's it. I mean, It's just not knowing right from wrong with it really, isn't it? It's the tricky part. And also sometimes I think some things, real things, date books so badly. I mean, the number of times I've been reading a book and I'll just get completely thrown off track and taken out of it because I'll be reading it and think, hold on, they bought that 4-bedroom house in Surrey for £65,000? Nope. And it just sort of derails me a little bit, so I'm just wondering But I think perhaps I should mention it in passing, so that's what I might do, I'm not sure. Yeah, it is a tough one because, oh yeah, yeah, no, I completely get what you mean. What is very bizarre as well at the moment is we're all watching Netflix and reading all these books, and in these shows and in these books, people are going to the beach, they are meeting somebody in a pub to talk about something, and you're thinking, whoa, that is so alien. Imagine being able to Goes to a pub, that's just absolutely bizarre. Although, do you know what, I have got a rather interesting question for you. Well, I find it interesting. Okay. Keeping in mind that you used to work on building sites with your dad. Yes. What is your building strength? My building strength? Yeah, what can you do? What can I do? What I'm— the best thing that I'm good at is— are you still there? It's all a bit quiet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm still here. Is project managing a task. I'm pretty good at that. Oh, what? So you like to just sit back and tell people what to do? Do this, do that. And I've been told I can be a little bit of a pit bull or a terrier on it. Keep chasing and chasing and chasing until things get done and, uh, keeping to a tight program. That's the, the strengths I sort of worked on. But as regards actual physical trades, I've— I am not the tidiest or the quickest on anything like that. But, um, are you a little A bit of a disco. A bit of a disco? In what respect? Like a drink, or? Well, you know, he just gets to it when he feels like it, doesn't he? Oh, I see, right, yeah. A bit messy. Yeah, unfortunately I'm a bit old now for long, hard labor these days. And yeah, I'm— yeah, but as regards Project managing a task and building teams, I think I'm pretty good at that, I think. Okay, cool. I mean, talking about your strengths, you're a comic, aren't you? Or at least you gave it a little bit of a punt. Oh yes, that was another thing on the bucket list. Yes, I mean, I've always been a big, big, comedy nerd ever since I was a kid. I've always loved comedy and stand-up comedy and written comedy, but I left school at 16, um, and went to work straight away, and I just never knew how— how do people get into it? It always seemed to be you had to go to university to become a comic. Uh, they all seem to come out of Cambridge University, and that was never going to happen. And then Uh, so just after the 2000s, there was suddenly this big burst in stand-up comedy workshops and classes, and, um, I thought, yeah, I'm gonna give that a go. So I found one in Time Out, uh, which was, um, run sort of a few evenings above a pub in Camden, uh, and it sort of taught you how to do stand-up comedy, how to write comedy. And yeah, I did some gigs and some performances.— and did that for— it was a lot of fun, met some interesting people. Some people are now well-known TV stars now because they persisted with it and they obviously had a talent for it. But for me, I found that I wasn't a natural, comfortable performer. I could never quite find my voice right.— but I could mimic other people's voices and from that I had a— one of the sort of leading stand-up comedians asked me if I could provide them with some material, which I did, and ended up writing stuff for their Edinburgh shows and their corporate bookings, their theatre tours, and their performances when they were on things like Have I Got News for You and the News Quiz and Mock the Week and things like that. And that led to writing. I got some commissions to write for some comedy shows that were on BBC Radio 4 and some podcasts, and that was all good fun. So yes, I quite enjoyed that. Are you not allowed to say who the comic was? No, I'm afraid not. No, I thought you wouldn't be able to. I found this quite interesting reading, especially because of the way that you write as well. We get the media info media info, sorry, about you. And I was thinking about this book that I recently read, and if you haven't read it, you might find it quite interesting considering your past. It's by the comedian Viv Grosskopf, and it's called I Laughed, I Cried. Have you heard of it? No, no, who's it? Viv? Viv Grosskopf. Okay, so she basically, she was, um, she worked in the media, she is a journalist, and she wanted to try comedy, but she had, well, she's She has 3 children, and she thought, right, if I want to get into comedy, it takes up a lot of time, it takes me away from my family a lot, I need to find out in a very quick way, quick-ish way, whether this is something that's a viable option for me in the future. So she decided to do 100 gigs in 100 days, and if at the end of it she— yeah, if she wasn't doing well at the end of that, then she was going to give it up. Or she'd know whether she had a love for it or not. And it wasn't a gig every night, it was literally, if she had to have a night off because it was her husband's birthday or a kid's birthday or something like that, then she would do 3 in one night, or she would, you know, it was, however she did it, she had to do 100 in 100 days. And she breaks it down to the good ones, the bad ones, the seedy world of some of the people that are out there as well. You know, just how poorly paid you get and you never really— sometimes there's 2 people in the audience and it's quite— if you do, if you're a fan, yes, exactly, and how you have to bring along somebody, you're not allowed to actually go on stage unless you bring a guest. I've been to those ones too, yeah. And it's quite funny and she still, she actually does comedy now as well and she does a bit of coaching as well but it was just interesting to see how it affects your family life and just trying to figure something out, because, you know, your life isn't over when you've got kids, but as you've, as you've kind of said in the past, just about how your life has unfolded, is that, you know, things are harder when you've got kids, and you've got different priorities, and you can't just go off and do as you damn please all the time. But yeah, she made a deal with her husband that she'd she'd basically abandoned them for 100 days, but at the end of it, she'd either have something or she wouldn't, but she wouldn't waste any more of their time. I'm gonna read that. That sounds like— yeah, that sounds exactly like the experience I ended up with. That— yeah, it was some— it is hard graft. Yeah, it's the persistence is the hardest part. But as I say, um, yeah, the guys who make it are the ones who stick it out, and you've got to take every gig when it comes to you. And you just get phoned up at 5 o'clock in the afternoon when you're in the center of London saying, oh, there's a gig in Sheffield tonight at 8 o'clock, do you want it? You get your petrol money, and if you say no, you know that there'll be 11 other people that say yes straight behind you, and you'll never get asked again. So yeah, there is a certainly a degree of, um, a dog-eat-dog involved with it. Yeah, well, I mean, I used to do acting and a bit modeling and whatnot, and it's exactly the same that if you want the jobs where you're getting paid £400 an hour, or, you know, even bigger jobs if you end up being really successful, you've got to do those £20 jobs and those expenses jobs, because otherwise they will just not call you the next time. And it's an absolute nightmare. I mean, it's It can be. Yes, exactly. And you know that if you say no, there'll be a dozen people behind you that will say yes, and that's it, you're off the list, you'll never be asked again. Yep. But you know, you've managed to get this book out, and are your kids quite impressed, or they're like, "We don't care, Dad"? They're more impressed by the COVID actually than anything in it or anything that else has happened. They like the COVID because it's a little bit cartoony. Yeah, I know, it is pretty cool. Yeah, it's the kind of thing— white chalk outline of a dead body, which they find quite interesting. Oh, the kids love a chalk outline. I think the kids, they're so impressed with the most simplest of things, aren't they? Yeah, but the fact that Dad's written a book and it's published and it's out there in the real world is kind of, oh, all right, we've got loads of them on the shelf up there. I wrote this one. Yeah, yeah, sure. So I did it. So I was just, I was just going to say I went on holiday once with my children and I'd worked my bum off to get them this fantastic holiday in LA and we had jet lag and we were out at 6 in the morning and because we're out at 6 in the morning we went down onto Huntington Beach and there was a film being shot. There was all these fantastic old cars from the '70s and then We went out on the pier and there was people surfing, there was dolphins, and they were just seeing all these dolphins in the wild. And then we were going off and seeing all these incredible things and we built sandcastles with nobody around. And then at the end of the day we were having dinner and I said, what was the best thing today? And they went, oh my God, they've got a button to make the water come out of the tap in our really nice hotel. I was like, right, go back to your room, I'm not interested. So kids don't care do they? They want a button and they want a chalk outline that's all they care about! That's all they're interested in yeah— Yeah they're very hard to impress my kids. Yeah I mean mine are similar let's say, I think they're all similar you know kids will probably at school or on well I suppose yours aren't really they don't have phones or anything yet so they're not connected in a way to their friends but you know I'm pretty certain they'll probably say really nice things about you to their friends when they do eventually get to see them. They just never want you to know that they say nice things about you. Oh well, we'll see, maybe one day. But a couple of things that I wouldn't mind knowing is what's going to happen next? Is it always— it's always going to be based around Mark Pointer, isn't it? Yes, yeah, although saying that, funnily enough, just put the finishing touches to a third one whilst I've been locked down, which is kind of a sideways spin-off. Um, I started writing it as just a completely standalone thing. Um, just so I'd written number 1, uh, and that I'd sent out to various agents and publishers, uh, and got on with number 2. Uh, and so by the time Sean at Red Dog had sort of got in touch and got it all published, I think number 2 was, was done ready as well at the same time. Um, and then just as a palate cleanser, I'd start on number 3, which I thought I'd start— I'd be a new character in a sort of— in its own universe and that sort of thing. But the more it started developing, the more I could see it was actually a story about, um, the, the gangster character I've got, a character called Hamlet. And, um, and I could say, yeah, this could— this is— this could be the story of Hamlet making reparations for what he gets up to in book 2. —so it's almost like a sideways sequel, a bit like kind of Rogue One is to Star Wars, where it's part of the story but off to one side. So, yes, number 3 might just be slightly different. But yeah, but on the whole, what I'm intending is I'm going to keep it based in the Medway towns, keep it— and keep talking about Mark and his friends and his gang and his family for as long as I can. As I say, the whole joy of— oh yeah, the joy and benefit of being a small tradesman is the fact that, as I say, he can be— he can just spend a morning fixing somebody's lamp, or he could spend 6 months rewiring an office block, or he could be in a casino, or he could be on an oil rig, or he could be, um, he could be just about doing absolutely anything or anywhere. Well, it's endless, isn't it? And also, you know, write what you know. I mean, you were brought up in the Midway towns, weren't you? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's home, the Midway Towns. Cool, yeah, brilliant. And interestingly though, you've already written number 2 by the time you sent in number 1, and then you're just finishing off number 3. That's like, you definitely knew it was going to go somewhere and you're going to keep on writing anyway. Do you have any publishing tips for people out there who are listening that are going, wow, so, you know, he's finished his first one and he's got 2 or 3 pretty much already in the bag? Tell us more. Um, well, no, it was— I, um, I think it was— I read an interview and I think it was Val McDermid, the, um, the Scottish crime writer, and she was saying that the advice she always gives to new writers is that you've got your entire life to write book number one, and it could be absolutely perfect, it could be the best thing you'll ever do, book number one. But the problem is you spent 20 years putting book one together, and they'll want book 2 in 6 months' time. So never stop writing. So even though you finished it and you think, that's it, I'm going to go out and try and find something— you've got to keep the, keep the machine rolling and keep the, the wheels turning. Um, so that's what I did. I just kept, kept on going. I've got ideas, I'm brimming with ideas. Uh, I sort of just put some notes down this week for what I think— where I think number 4 is going to go as well. So I'm looking at least into 4 or 5 books in this series. And yeah, it is just get writing. That's the hardest part. It's just keep writing, keep— and the persistence, that's the hardest part, and the perseverance. Do you find it quite cathartic writing it? Yes, yes, I do. I've actually found it quite difficult in the current situation. I belong to various Twitter groups and Facebook groups for writers and bloggers and things, and a lot of people are in the same position where they're just finding they haven't got the mojo to write at the moment, and whether that's anxiety or a change in routine or something, but it's come back to me in the past week or so. But for the first few weeks, I just— maybe it was just readjusting and trying to find that routine, because my first priorities shifted all of a sudden to the children and the homeschooling, and also trying to keep going with my work-work. So it's trying to fit it in somewhere. I see what you mean, though, because the thing is, I do write, I do blog, I am writing a book at the moment, and I've had to stop for the last 8 weeks because sometimes you've got it's got to take something from you to put your heart and soul into it. And it just felt like I could not do it. And I kind of needed to keep my stuff together. Yeah. So that, you know, you focus your energy. I mean, always, you know, first and foremost, making sure that your kids are okay, getting them into a particular routine. Cause if you don't, your life, you can't do anything anyway. And it's just re-jigging your focus and then you know, when they're all sorted and they're balanced in knowing what's happening at the moment, that's when you can start looking back at yourself and what you can do to carry on with, you know, what your passion is and what your goals are. Sorry, I've got a really creaky chair. My producer is going to be really shouting at me for sitting on my creaky chair. Yeah, I mean, if anybody had asked me before lockdown, "Do you have a writing routine?" I'd have said no. I never thought I did, but looking back, I realized that yes, I did. It would be in the morning, I would— in the morning on the train, I'd read back what I'd done the day before and sort of make changes, things like that. Lunchtime would be— maybe I'd get 500 words down at lunchtime, just some ideas and thoughts. And then in the evening after the kids were in bed, I'd just get a bit of peace and quiet and take those 500 words and turn them into 2,000 words. Which would be a bit more cohesive. And then, as I said, the following morning, then just check it, edit it, move on. But that hasn't been happening, I guess, because I haven't had that routine. And also, if anyone had also said, "Oh, do you have your own little superstitions and routine habits?" I'd have said no. But I realize, yeah, I'd set up a little writing station up in the spare bedroom, a little corner of the room. With a table and space for a laptop, but my wife's company sent everybody home to work remotely before mine did, so she pinched my table and claims squatted on it. She snaffled it. Well done. Well done, there. I've had to work in the corner of the living room in amongst the kids, which hasn't been good for a few hours of quiet time. Yeah, it's strange. I would never have thought I'd have had routines and habits and lucky corners and things like that, but clearly I do. Well, I mean, similarly, I used to be going into Women's Radio Station, and on the way in I would make sure I had all my questions ready for my authors, and on the way out I knew that that was my time, and so I'd be reading books or I'd be writing. And the same with when I go work at another station as well. On the way there, I'd sort out my interviews for whoever I was interviewing that day, and then on the way back, it was always, you know, my time. And I forgot— you realize that you have these routines and these kind of ways of doing things, and then all of a sudden we just don't have that routine anymore. Which kind of brings me on to, you know, what do you think has been your best 3 ways of getting through lockdown? Do you have wellbeing tips? 3 best ways? Well, actually, funnily enough, it comes off of what we've just been talking about, because I haven't had the mojo for the past few weeks to sit down and write and push anything forward, but I began writing a diary, which I've never done before. Never, even as a kid, I never kept a diary, but something in me just chimed, thinking And also my oldest had it as an assignment from school, so I thought, I'll do that too, because I do it. Just, I think the times we're in at the moment, my children's children will be learning about this in their history lessons. So I thought it might be nice just to write down our thoughts, what we've been doing in the day and how we're looking, how things are affecting us, as some kind of contemporaneous record that maybe my children's children might want to have to look back on in 50 years' time. And just by doing that every couple of days, I'll just write half a page, something about what we've been up to and whether we've spoken to anybody or seen anyone. And that's been quite a nice way just to sort of level things off and reduce any kind of stress. Talking to people and also just watching what people are saying on Twitter and social media is quite a lot of people have done the same thing. They've just started keeping diaries who've never done it before just to express themselves and just get it all out and keep this kind of record for their future. Well, did you know what? This is one of my biggest tips just in general when I'm speaking to friends and they're worried or even for myself. When there's so much going on in my head. I put it down on a piece of paper. I recommend other people to put it down on a piece of paper because sometimes the confusion and the overwhelming nature of it all is because we can't unjumble it. Write it down, it's out of your brain and it's written there for you to see in black and white, and it doesn't look as scary when you can compartmentalise it a bit more. Exactly. You just have to go, yeah, you just have to go anywhere, you know, nobody has to see it, you just need to go, what's worrying me, write it all down. Oh wait, okay, I can sort something out about that, that's actually that, the the same thing. So actually I've got 3 issues rather than 23. Yeah, that's a fantastic tip. I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one. Oh, good. Okay. But yeah, you said that a lot better than I said. So, but yeah, I find that so much so useful. Yes, certainly to clear my head and get things moving. Yeah. Hmm. And do you have a number 2 for us? Oh, No, just to get some sunshine really, I think, and get out and get some fresh air because it is just so easy, isn't it, just to sit down and put the telly on and just veg out. But just a walk around the block, just get some fresh air, some sunlight, and some vitamin D is— I find wakes me up. No end. It also clears my head. And as I said, my kids are starting to get a little bit feral now, so Joe Wicks soon lost his appeal after a few weeks. So just to get them on their bike and ride up and down the road a couple of times is good. You just want to keep moving, don't you? Just get those endorphins moving along. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting because I didn't— I had one of those days where I was just so incredibly busy in the house, and it wasn't great weather. It's one of the, you know, we had about 7 days of beautiful weather, then all of a sudden it went down to 7 degrees, and we only went out for about 20 minutes. And by 6 or 7 o'clock in the evening, my son, my youngest, was just jumping on the sofa. I'm going, dude, since when did we ever jump on furniture? And he's going, I can't stop it. And it was literally just all this pent-up energy. I'm going, right, we are walking "Are you going to go walking tomorrow?" And he's going, "Yes, thank you. I just need to be out." They have a certain amount of energy that you have to be able to expend. Yeah, they're like puppies, aren't they? You've got to wear them out. Well, yeah, apart from my dog. I've got the laziest dog on the planet. I mean, seriously, they took her out for a walk while we're doing this interview because I just can't trust them to be nice and quiet. And even the dog was putting her angry face on going, "I don't want to go anywhere. I just want to sit in the garden and enjoy the sunshine." But that's beagles for you. That's just how we are. They roll. Yeah, beagles have a face that look like they're grumpy, and there's a reason for that. Yeah, so yeah, I think, but yeah, it's just whilst we're lucky to have the weather, just, I mean, can you imagine what this would have been like, this lockdown, a few months earlier with all those floods we were having and all the storms? Oh, seriously, Matt, when has the British weather ever had our back? Hmm. And it's like, dudes, you're going through something that's not too great, you know what, here's some nice weather. Yeah, I know it's March and April, but 'You know what, let's give you 25 degrees and virtually no rain so you can get out and water your gardens.' It's been incredible, hasn't it? A month earlier, we would have been knee-deep in floods. Yeah, but can you imagine then? Because it would have been a horrific situation because people were flooded and they'd have to go out and they'd have to go move in with people or stay in a hotel. And it's just, it's bizarre the way that this happened and it just tied in almost perfectly. Not that I'm saying that it's some sort of conspiracy theory, because no, but it is really weird, isn't it? Just how well it worked out. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, not to make light of, um, the sort of people have been suffering and, uh, a lot of loss, but it could have been a lot more uncomfortable and a lot more unbearable for people. Well, yeah, I mean, if there was— especially if more vulnerable people were left and it was too cold or too uncomfortable to go outside, or, you know, they were going through certain floods and they couldn't go stay with family and whatnot. I mean, this is what I mean, it's just there's so many different ways that we've got to be— we've got to look on the bright side of as much as possible at the moment, for sure. Now, If you've been at home, I mean, obviously you've been writing all your books, have you been reading as well? Have you been reading any other books yourself? Yes, I have. I've, again, I lost the mojo for a few weeks, but back into it now, so I'm a few in now. So yeah, I read a terrific book by a new author called Chris McDonald. His book's called A Wash of Black. Oh, I've just asked for that one. Oh, right, okay. Well, you'll enjoy that one then. And he's got his new ones due out towards the end of the year. And it's absolutely fantastic. Chris is a new author who's— we sort of came out similar sort of time. And he's been really supportive and encouraging. He's a terrific guy from Northern Ireland. And his book's just so good. It's just a really good police thriller with a great new, um, female lead who I can see would be fantastic as a very sort of televisual kind of thing. She'd be fantastic on TV. Um, and he is exactly what I was talking about, that he's got the insight and it's totally immersive. You don't think it's a, uh, oh, that would never happen. He's got it nailed down. He, you you totally believe every single word he's written. There's not a spare word in it at all. Oh really? It's a really, really good book. Well, I did see quite a few of the reviews going up on Twitter because I, you know, I follow as much of the writing community as I can and I love it. And you know what, the writing community, especially on Twitter, is really quite nice to each other. Everyone's quite supportive. But so many people just talking about how it's just, it's unputdownable. Yes, it is. It's one of those words that sometimes makes me cringe, but yes. So I kind of got in touch with the publisher and I was like, uh, can I have that one please? Oh yeah, I mean, you'll love it. It's absolutely brilliant and it's, um, yeah, a real— and it's written so immersive and easy that you just take it down in some big gulps nice and quickly. And, um, yeah, it's a real— before you know it, you've lost a few hours. It's just a fantastic book. It's, yeah, A Wash of Black by Chris McDonald. And his new one is coming out soon. I'm just having a quick look to see if I've got the— he sent me the COVID of it and it looked quite awesome. Oh, did it? Because the Watcher Black is the one with the typewriter on it, isn't it? Is it the typewriter? That's it, yeah. So his new— oh, come on, Chris. Where's his— one of his texts. Whispers in the Dark, that's the one. Oh, okay. Which is out in November, 14th of November. Ah, that's quite a way away. Yeah, so you've got time to read the first one. The time— I seriously, I read 2 or 3 books in a week. I absolutely love it. I've got— I normally have 3 on the go at the moment because I need them in all the different formats. So I like an Audible for in case I'm walking on my own or I'm going out doing some exercise or cooking away whatever. Sometimes you just want to hold a book, which, you know, that's when I had the likes of, you know, Death of a Painter. But sometimes if you're going somewhere and you don't want to take a book with you but you have to take your phone or whatever, then that's when I go for the Kindle ones. Alright, okay. So, you know, if you suddenly end up in a queue at Sainsbury's because, you know, everyone's social distancing, and so I books on the go at any one point, and I love it. Yeah. Um, so are you still there? Yeah, I'm still— I like you to just cut out. But, um, I mean, talk about physical books. My, uh, yeah, my bucket list, my ambition was always get my own book published that I can put on the shelf and say, I made that. And what they've come up with, uh, Red Dog Press have come up with, is, is Beautiful. I'm really, really pleased with it. It's, um, because I've bought, um, small publishers' books before and they've always seemed a bit flimsy, a bit cheap. But this is— it's got a lovely cover, it's got a nice feel, nice heft to it. The papers— I don't know, there's something collectible about books, isn't there? Something— yeah, if you're a bookie, a big bookie person, it's always something collectible. You like to feel of them and the smell of them and the touch of them. Yeah, I mean, there are certain books out there where I know I'm gonna love the story, but if the cover's not great, I'm like, right, I'll get it on Kindle and save a tree or whatnot. But I do like to hold a book as well. I'm one of those people that will hold a book and walk down the street as well and kind of read it as I'm walking. So people know not to speak to me. Yeah, but you know what, the amount of times, like, you know when you walk down the street and you see somebody and they're on their phone, you nearly you walk into them and you think, I'd really like to stick my foot out just to see whether you'd notice. Yeah. But if people nearly walk into you because they're reading a book, quite often people just go, oh, I'm glad you're reading a book. It's better than being one of those people that's constantly behind a screen. I'm like, yeah, cool. And people are actually quite forgiving of people who walk into them. That's my experience anyway. But yeah, I was finishing your book off the other day and I was walking down I bumped into somebody who knew me and they're like, put it down and actually speak to us for a bit, we've not seen you in 8 weeks. I was like, okay, fair enough. But the COVID of my book is absolutely gorgeous, I love the COVID I can't take a single ounce of credit for it at all because it's all done by Sean at Red Dog, but I'm thrilled when I saw it. I've got, you know, I haven't got an artistic bone in my body, and he said, what do you want on the COVID And I said, I've got absolutely no idea.. But as soon as he showed it to me, that was exactly what I wanted. It was one of those strange situations. It's kind of, I mean, it actually caught my eye as well because I came across your book by looking on Twitter and I saw it and I thought, do you know what, a cover does bring you in. And it's, yeah, it's fun but without making it look too much of a comic strip, if you see what I mean. Yeah, see what I mean? Um, but I mean, I urge all our listeners to go out and have a look at it. Why don't you tell people where they can find you, your website, your Twitter handle, Instagram, and where people can go and get the book? Okay, yeah, uh, the book is available, um, obviously through all the usual online like Amazon and Waterstones, but, um, if you go through the online shop for the publisher, and we should all support local independent businesses at the moment, shouldn't we? It's Red Dog Press, which is www.reddogpress, one word. So it's red as in the color, dog as in dog, and press as in press. reddogpress.co.uk to their online shop. And at the moment they're offering a 15% discount on— and through their online checkout, all their books on their portfolio, if you put in the code C19. Just to help you through those times. So yeah, you get it a little bit cheaper than you would through the likes of the big boys. So yeah, it's available there. It's available in ebook, paperback, and hardback, which I was surprised by. I was like, "Hardback? Do people still read hardbacks?" I was saying. He said, "Yeah, there's a real revival in hardbacks at the moment. People have got a real fetish over them at the moment." People are I'm mad for hardbacks. Well, the thing is, it's that whole coffee table idea as well, you know, the coffee table books where they— I mean, and yours is the kind of book as well that looks quite interesting and it would kind of start a conversation when people are sitting around in the living room. And there are definitely certain books that I would only get on hardback so that they're more out on show, they're more of a kind of a way to decorate your property as well, which doesn't quite work with the paperbacks because by the time you've loved the book it's all a bit curled and whatnot. So yeah, I can see that there are, you know, all my hardbacks are completely in a separate place away from the paperbacks because I want them kind of a little bit more on show. Yeah, because everyone seems to be fascinated at the moment with all these interviews of reporters all talking to people in their homes. Everyone just seems completely fascinated by people's bookshelves, don't they? Oh yeah, because it says something about somebody as well. Yeah, there's a whole Twitter account sprung up devoted to people's bookshelves. Yeah, oh, well, do you know what, there's some serious bookshelf porn on Instagram at the moment. You can just have a look. I mean, there was someone the other day who put something up, all their books, they changed the order of them so that they were in colour order in a rainbow to, for the whole, you know, NHS heroes rainbow, you know, trend that's going on at the moment, and I was like, oh, that's so cool. I absolutely love it. But yeah, so that's quite interesting. I know I like paperback, I didn't know that was such a big thing going on out there as well. But what I am going to do when the review goes out on hazelbutterfield.com, I'll put up all the links there to your Twitter and Instagram and your web page and make sure that I point them back in the direction of Red Dog Press and Amazon as well, because people like it when they can just click and it just goes bang and it's delivered within the next 24 hours. I mean, seriously, Jeff Bezos must be very happy at the moment. Hmm, I bet he is. Yeah, gets divorced, loses half of his wealth, and then all of a sudden he doubles it again. Well, that's— I mean, Talking from the building side of things, that's one of the biggest concerns that we've got on our projects is that so many of the big projects that I've been working on Crossrail recently and all the sites have been shut down because of safety and concerns. And it's, are we going to get the labor to come back once the jobs are back open now? All these guys gone off and are now driving vans for Amazon and the like because that's the only place people can earn any money at the moment? Well, we just got to hope that the British public, and actually, you know, the world over, that people understand that it's down to all of us to kind of encourage the economy to go back into a particular direction again. I mean, you know, as people get out and about a bit more, they're not going to need to go to Amazon as much, and they're probably going to enjoy going into the shops because they haven't been able to before. So hopefully it will naturally progress, but only time will tell, pretty much. I mean, one of my final questions, because this hour has absolutely flown by, we've only got a minute or two left, if I can just ask you, who do you admire in the public eye at the moment, whether it's a writer or somebody in comedy or somebody who you just think is completely knocking it out of the park, it can be for whatever reason. Who would it be? I've got a big thing for Jacinda Ardern. I think she seems to be bossing things at the moment. My wife's actually a New Zealander, so we've got a foot in both hemispheres, and so we certainly keep abreast with New Zealand. But yeah, Jacinda Ardern is just bossing at the moment, and even the way that she just came out with declaring the Easter Bunny to be a key worker, just to ease all kids' minds, was just a lovely thing for somebody to do. She's got humanity, she's got a fantastic way of owning a room, her leadership skills are just unbelievable, and she practices what she preaches. I mean, you know, the fact that a lot of the people in her cabinet had to— well, they all decided to take a pay cut in solidarity, and it's just, it's these things that just bring everybody together, and I think, I think, you know, you've completely knocked it out the park there. Yeah, I 100% agree, she's brilliant. Yeah, I mean, New Zealand's somewhere that we're both, my kids have dual citizenship, two passports here and here in New Zealand, and so yeah, we try to go there as often as we can, but I think for the future is going to be difficult now, now they're in this isolated bubble because they've successfully inoculated themselves. But yeah, I think she's amazing and she's certainly become the face of the pandemic, certainly, hasn't she, for all the positive reasons. What would Jacinta do? Yeah, that's what pictures are, shouldn't they? Yeah, definitely. Do you know what, it's been an absolute thrill chatting to you. I think Death of a Painter is fantastic, Matt, and I can't wait for your number 2 3, and I'm sure 4 is probably going to be knocked out the park by next week anyway. Thank you so much for joining us and good luck with the rest of it. I can't wait to get you in the studio when we're back in there. I'd love to, yeah, I've had a lot of fun. Yeah, well, good luck and all my love to the family and enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you, Hazel, it's been great. Thank you so much.