In this empowering episode, host Judy Mae Murphy explores what it really means to “go big” and challenges the cultural narratives that keep women playing small. Through thoughtful responses to listener questions from Louise and Monica, Judy Mae reveals that failure isn’t falling apart—it’s learning, growing, and gathering momentum for the next leap. She unpacks the real cost of playing it safe: boredom, unrealized potential, and a life unlived. With practical wisdom and relatable examples, she shows that going big doesn’t require perfection or waiting for the perfect moment; it requires courage, a willingness to learn along the way, and the recognition that you already bring valuable gifts to the table.
Guest choreographer Zena Gustaert joins Judy Mae to share her inspiring journey of making a bold leap from dancing internationally to choreographing on the West End in London and Broadway in New York. Zena’s story illustrates that big dreams don’t come with guarantees or invitations—they come with the decision to go for it, the willingness to figure things out as you go, and the commitment to grow through the process. This episode is essential listening for any woman feeling that invisible barrier between where she is and where she wants to be.
Main Topics
Reframe "failure" as learning and growth rather than falling apart—minor setbacks are collateral damage on the path to going big, not reasons to play small
Distinguish between what needs to be built step-by-step versus what can happen in one bold leap—sometimes a different technique is all you need to make a bigger leap possible
Recognize that excitement mixed with nervousness is the real indicator you're on the right track; boredom is the true danger
Stop comparing yourself to others by remembering you already do things that others consider big—perspective is relative, and you bring unique gifts to every situation
Big opportunities often aren't handed to you; they require the decision to go for it, even without guarantees, and to figure things out as you go
Question negative self-assessments like 'whenever I try, it falls apart'—did it really fall apart, or did it just fall differently and teach you something valuable?
Going big is better than playing small because growth happens through expansion, not contraction—you have limited years on this planet, so use them
Full TranscriptHello, everyone, and welcome to Judy May is listening. I'm Judy Mae Murphy, and I'm listening to everything that you hav...▼
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Judy May is listening. I'm Judy Mae Murphy, and I'm listening to everything that you have to say, everything that is important to you in your life, anything that might be going really well for you, and mostly things that are a little bit glitchy, things that you can't believe are still a problem, or things that you can't believe have not yet happened. Because this is what we do on this show, is we really work out what's going on for you, and then we turn it around completely so that you can live your best life possible. And today we're going to be talking all about going big. I have an amazing guest in studio a little bit later on. Her name is Zena Gustaert, and she is such an incredible woman because not only is she working at the highest levels in her industry, she is a choreographer and a performer, a presenter, but she also did it really, really quickly, that she had got herself into a place that many women find themselves, where they've achieved at a certain level. And on paper and to their friends and family, it looks like they're doing really well. But they know that there is so much more inside them, and they know that they can go bigger and that they can go big fast. And yet there are all these different things in our culture and within ourselves and in our mindsets that are stopping us from doing that. Particularly these days, we're being advised, you know, go more slowly. Look what happened when people tried to go really big and they lost a lot of money in real estate. You know, look at these people. Maybe someone like Janis Joplin or these kind of characters who went really big and then ended up dying early. And these are shown to us as examples of why not to go big quickly. However, there are so many examples of people who do go big fast and who it works for them. But for you guys, right now, first of all, we're going to deal with a question that was sent in from Louise in Bath in the uk, and her challenge is this. She says, whenever I try to go big quickly, it falls apart. I tried to double my company from three to six employees, and I got really stressed and sick. And I think that that is something that we can all relate to when, you know, we tried to do something and we feel like we bit off more than we could chew, and it all ended up where maybe we were in a worse position than before. And then what happens is our brain says, that's not safe. It's not safe to go big. It's not safe to get back in there. Whereas really the lesson isn't, it's not safe to go big. The lesson really is all the things that you learned along the way while you were trying for it. So the first thing, Louise, that I would say is that you don't yet know that that failed. It could be that when you tried to get all those extra employees, you learned a lot more about building a business. You learned a lot more about being a boss, you learned a lot more about what it was that your business needed. Maybe you learned about things like timing, but definitely to write it off as I did this and it failed isn't going to serve you. Because if you think about it, very often we will try things that fail, but those things are small. So it could be that you maybe went to sign up for a yoga class and just didn't happen for you. So something small like that. Or it could be that you tried to pass your test to ride a motorbike and that didn't work for you. That's something that our guest is going to be able to help you with, by the way, if that's the case for you. But if it's something small and it doesn't work work out, you're just disappointed. You don't tell yourself that it failed because it was small. Right? So why is it that we tell ourselves that it failed because it was big, whereas really it has to be, well, you know what, it almost worked or I learned something and it worked on that level. And also, you know, I was juiced enough because that's the really great thing about going big is that we get enough juice, we get enough momentum to really move forward. So often if people are saying, well, I'll take on one employee in this two year period and then maybe in two years time I'll revisit that again. Louise, you probably would have ended up really, really bored with your business and you probably would have ended up not learning and not growing and not being excited by your life on a day to day basis. Now, yes, we do know what it's like when excitement then becomes stress. However, I think that's better than, you know, overreaching is better than underreaching every single time. Because at least when we overreach, we grow as people. Second thing that we need to look at about going big is that there are some things that need to be built step by step. So sometimes when right the way through the history of businesses, we can see that sometimes when people just grow way too fast, they end up in trouble. And they either have to stick at that point or go back a little bit, or maybe they just ride that out and they get to that place that they wanted to be in. But definitely we need to identify, is that a thing that needs to be step by step or is this a thing that can be sort of like leaping a building in one bound? Is that possible? Because very, very often it is. And sometimes we just need to use a slightly different technique when we're trying to do that bigger thing. But ask yourself this, is this exciting enough? To me, this is why we want to go big is so that we are waking up every day excited and a little bit nervous and a little bit like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I'm doing this. And again, this is something that Zena Gustard is going to be able to tell you all about because she has been living it at an awesome level for the last couple of years. And without that, that is the real danger. The real danger is being bored by your own existence, not being inspired by what it is that you've set up. So I would take those little learnings and minor losses as just collateral. That is just gonna happen. It happens to everybody that goes big in any way. But that is not reason enough to play small. Nothing is reason enough to play small. We're only here for a certain number of years. We've only got like 110 years on this planet each. And so we have to use it. We have to use it. So I would say, first of all, Louise, the phrasing that you used was, whenever I try to go big quickly, it always, it falls apart. I would question that phrase. I'd question that assessment of, you know, did it fall apart or did it just fall differently? And now you have to regroup and think again. But you're a better businesswoman for that, I'm sure. I'm sure you'd agree with that. Okay, so our next question comes in from Monica in Virginia in the usa. And Monica says, whenever I go for something that feels big to me, I just stop. It's like this invisible barrier. This really good looking man who my friend knows asked me out on a date. And I just thought I'd hate that because I'd always be nervous about how I looked and what I was saying. And this note really made me smile because I could completely relate to it. Like when something is offered to us and we think that, yeah, that's amazing and that is where I want to go, but not yet, or that would be ideal, but not for someone like me. So what I'm hearing you say here, Monica, is that you just think that it would be so much effort that you would have to be spending all day in the spa and getting your nails done. And you'd be constantly worried about, are you measuring up to this guy's standard? But here's what we need to all rethink about the idea of something being big. Whether that is a high standard, maybe a person who's very high quality, or a high standard for how someone's showing up, or just a deal that's bigger than anything you've done before. We've got to sort of remember that we have things that other people think is. Is going really big. So, for example, it might be that. So for me, with my job for the last 20 years going all around the world, speaking on these really big stages, I don't think of that as big. I don't think of having anywhere from 1,000 to 5,000 people in the audience. I don't think of it as a big deal. I've just done it so much for so many years. And there are loads of people who, for them, Even speaking to 30 people in a room is something that is a really, really big leap. So remember that. Remember, there are things that you have done and things that you already do and ways that you already show up that other people would see as being outside of their. Their comfort level, their comfort zone. So you're always bringing something to the party. It's not that you're this small person and suddenly you're being thrown into this circus where everybody is huge and everything's impossible. Instead, look at it as, you know what I'm bringing, my gifts, I'm bring, I'm bringing my qualities, my spirit to that party. And I'm going to be growing while I'm there. Because it's not that you're going to, you know, it's not that any of us are this some kind of done deal and we're expected to just show up and find our place, find our niche and just get on with it. So, you know, what is it that you're thinking of when you think of this man? Are you imagining that what he wants is something that is very similar to what you want? Is it that you think, okay, he's very good looking, he's very. That. The email was actually very long. So I got to know a lot about this man and I thought, yes, that seems like a really good thing. I'd go for that if I were you. He seems Very kind. But if you're focusing on the thing that you think you're lacking. So it looks like he kind of is really good at grooming. He dresses really well. He dresses quite expensively. And that. You want that. You want that, but you feel like you're not that yourself. Well, maybe those are things that he just doesn't even see because it's just so nice, normal for him. So it could be that for him, things like somebody who's kind is the missing piece, or could it be something like, you know, somebody who's really smart and witty is the missing piece, or could it be just, you know, somebody who is somebody who has high standards when it comes to culture, just. So have a look at that. Have a look at, like, there's a reason why he asked you out, and it wasn't in order to teach you to be as handsome as he is. That was not the reason he asked you out. So, you know, you got to remember that when we're going big, we've got to stop thinking of ourselves as small, because we're not. You know, if there are things we're going to learn, we can learn them along the way. If there are certain qualities that we're going to have to embrace, we can remember that, and we can focus on that, and we can be that as we're going for it. So Louise and Monica and everybody, right after the break, we are going to be joined by the incredible Zena Gustaert. Zena is a choreographer on the West End in London and in Broadway in New York. And I know she's done stuff in Toronto when she was a dancer, she would travel all around the world. She did a lot of stuff in China and Germany, and she was on these great big stages. And she decided a couple of years ago that she was going to go big, that she was going to just make a great big leap into what she really wanted. So she's going to tell you all about that. And what I'd like you to listen out for is the fact that nothing was guaranteed, that she wasn't handed it as a done deal. No one said to her, you know, dear Zena, here is your invitation to come and work in these places. And she. Even though she'd never done these things before, she was deciding, you know what? That's where I need to be. And even though these things were much bigger or seemed much bigger at the time than anything she had done, she said, yeah, you know what? Let's have a lot of fun finding out how quickly I can get to those levels. And that's what we need to remember as women as well. That, you know, it doesn't have to be effortful, but it can be an awful lot of fun. So right after the break, we're going to see what Zena Gostart has to say. All about this from all the presenters and the team behind Women's Radio Station. Thank you for listening. You've been the most amazing audience with your sparkling enthusiasm and support. So from our hearts, we would like to wish you a very merry Christmas and a wonderful new year full of joy and surprises. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. Many women want to be smarter with their cash, but just don't know where to start. @empowerandenrich.org you will find a host of options to help you take charge of your finances and learn how to put your money to work for you in an easy, affordable way. Get in touch with me@empowerandenrich.org and let's change your future together. Hi, my name is Michelle Bartlett, the founder of Live Laugh Love Ladies Club. We're looking for ladies to link arms across the globe. This is a new vibrant brand connecting women socially. Our club members enjoy great food, fun and inspiring speakers while making friends of all generations. If you're a social butterfly in your community, there's fun fast growing franchise may be for you or we invite national companies to advertise within our closed network of members. Please visit LiveLaughladies Club. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. 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Every little will help. Welcome back to Judy Mae is listening. I am here with Zena Gustaert. Hello. And it's just such a pleasure for me to be here with Zena because she's an absolute delight. She's someone who just really takes the adventure of life and runs with it. She's always on some different part of the planet and every single time I speak to Zena, she has this new thing. She's the kind of person who always says, oh, and did I tell you? And then she just completely just amazes me with the thing that she's been doing in the last couple of weeks. But let me tell you what she's been up to for the last couple of years, because I feel that this is really, really important for us to have female role models, women who have done this themselves, who haven't had to be overly careful, who haven't had to, you know, play small in order to appease anybody or so called keep themselves safe. And at the same time, not being reckless, just being awes all over the place. So a couple of years ago. Well, Zena, why don't you, why don't you tell your own story? So a couple of years ago, a couple of years ago, I was at a place where I just was hitting a brick wall and just decided that it was, it wasn't enough. And you know, I really felt that I had more potential, but I didn't know how to access it, didn't know what was the best place for me to go, what was it I wanted to do. But I just knew there was something inside me that could do more. And you were working at the time as a dancer in a West End show and was coming to an end and you were pretty much saying, I was freaking out. I was like, what am I going to do? I'm, you know, I'm hitting the age of 30 or 30 at the time. So I was, you know, it was a big life point, really a bit monumental point in life. Turning 30 and having been a dancer for 12 years, it does have a shelf life. So I was kind of like, what am I going to do and how can I use this for my future? Or can I, or is there something else? I even went and I went on a complete tangent and started doing interior design, if you remember that. Yes, I thought, okay, that's the direction I want to go in. And I'm so glad that I did that, because I learned a lot in that process, but also learned that that wasn't right for me and it wasn't going to take me bigger and better quick enough. So would you say that it's easier to go big faster when you're actually locked into the thing that's really your dream, as opposed to some kind of a compromise? 100%. I think that's been so telling in the last two year and a half to two years of my life. I've tried. I'm with that person. Like you said, I try this or try that, and I'll give it a good crack. And I end up doing very well in that one thing that I decide to do. But it doesn't ever propel me as far as I know that I can go. And it's generally because it's not in a line with the real thing that I really want to be doing or know that I'm really. That's my zone, and that's where I should be. So the minute I start to hone in that and really try to manage it and manipulate it and really get myself in a place that I can go in that direction, that's when things start to change. And it's really just been in alignment with what you really want. Because if you start to. Even if you're doing something that's not in line with what you really want, you're never gonna go that big because you don't truly want it. So it's what you touched on earlier about getting. Waking up and being excited. And recently I felt that where I was just waking up and I can't believe I'm doing. I'm doing exactly what I wanted to be doing. You know, maybe 10 years ago, I wanted to choreograph, and I wanted to run a company, and I wanted to have a show, go on tour, and I wanted to have my thing on stage and. And be in charge and be the boss lady. I loved all that. And then suddenly, there you are. Yeah. And I'm doing, like, you know, on Broadway, and you've got this big company of people, and you're sort of saying something like, okay, guys, now try this. Now we're gonna do this. And they actually live every single word that I had to say, I'm sure. Yes, absolutely. You know, it was such an amazing experience, and I almost sometimes was outside of myself and would just look at what I was doing and almost be in Awe of how I got. Like, I finally. Not that it's the end for me, but that's the beginning of the next stage and how I'd wanted that so badly, and I've deviated from that for so long and sort of end up in a roundabout circle two years ago. And that's where I always wanted to be choreographed. And I'd always wanted to be in charge of a group and running a company, but never really got there because I was sidetracking and doing all these other things and putting lots of energy across the board. So would you say that in a way that. But it's easier to go big than it is to play small? Yeah, definitely. It just happens. It's the flow of what you're doing. I felt so in my flow when I was in. Just got back from New York and when I was there, I just felt everything. I couldn't say or do anything that wasn't right. You know what I mean? It was just everything was in flow with what I was doing. Everything was like a magnet going towards me, and I didn't even try. I didn't need to do anything. That's purely because I. I was in exactly the lane that I knew I wanted to be in and was not scared. And I was open enough to that opportunity to really take it and go bigger. And also because there are fewer people when you play at those higher levels. And so the amazing agent that you've recently signed to, I mean, just one of the best agents in the world, such exciting stuff. Most people don't even bother going for those agents because they're playing at those smaller levels. They're trying to climb the ladder rather than just put themselves from the second rung from the top and just cling to the stick kind of an idea. It was a really exciting meeting. And I went in with the attitude of, I'm gonna give this my absolute best shot. I have a stylist, and I got her to get me, you know, looking absolutely sharp and feeling great and got my hair done. And I went and I made sure that from top to bottom, I looked brilliant. And that made me feel on top of the world. And I thought, I'm going in here with absolutely nothing to lose and. And I'm just gonna go in. And the feeling of being in your flow and having fun and being open enough to answer any questions and being really authentic was what I felt in that meeting. And I remember going in the building. It was downtown in Broadway, and it was in this massive skyrise building. It Was like, on the 35th floor. And I just. I didn't realize how big it was until I got into the office and I thought, oh, this is quite serious. And I thought, right, well, you can't back out now. So you just gotta go for it. You've got your hair. You can't do. That's it. I got my nails done. My hair did. I felt great. And, yeah, I just. I think what I've learned recently was just to use what you've got. And what I've got is, you know, a bit of Scottish charm. And, you know, and I just used. I used. That was my playing card. And it worked. And it was just a really magnetic meeting. And we just. Everyone vibed really well, so it was really exciting. So what would you say to Monica who was talking about being interested in this guy but then she just said, oh, he's out of my league and she's just gonna let it drop even though she'd like to date him? What advice would you give to her? Well, if that's someone that she wants to go with and if the vibe's right together. And I think you've got to just. I'm just at this stage now where I'm just trying to grab the bull by the horns and it's. You've said it already. We're only here for a short amount of time. I mean, if what she got to. She's got nothing to lose. As long as she's prepared for and being open and happy with her own existence and what she's doing and where she's at in life then she can accept the response with a. Whether it's the exact thing she wants or if it's not. You know, at least she's tried and she's done what she wants to do. That's right. That is a brilliant point. That when you are going really big rejection doesn't hurt so much because it's almost a part of you that, you know, doesn't really expect it to work out. So you. It's actually easier to make those moves because the rejection isn't gonna sting. Exactly. You know, like if I was to walk up to Robert De Niro and ask him to suggest me to star in a movie opposite him. Well, a. It's not what I want, but if I wanted that I wouldn't be woefully disappointed if he just sort of gave me a look and walked away. Where if it was something, say, local theater and I'd be like, okay, I know. I'm even A little bit too good for this, then you wouldn't even go for that smaller thing because you would fear the rejection. How do you. Do you see rejection as a thing now that you're going really big, or do you just see it as a little stumbling block or does it exist for you right now? I mean, having been in the entertainment industry for 12 years, rejection is 100% part of the job. It's like 50, 50% of the job of being a performer. And you gotta just take the rough with the smooth. But I feel like now it's no skin off my back and it's just a way to go forward. And I'm so, for me personally, feeling that I have a clear vision of where I want to go. So if they don't want it, somebody else will. And it really is a numbers game. I just, I've noticed that over the years that if you can just show up, be good and be consistent and, you know, things will start to happen. And that can even work in relationships, you know, if you are clear on what you want and what you need. I think if you. And you have your back boundaries, then you can go forward in any direction. And now that you know how, it's easier and it's more fun to just really go for the big stuff. What is the next really big thing that we are going to be seeing from you in the next year or two? Well, my plan is to move to New York and to be working full time on Broadway and get into TV that I've been doing recently here in the uk. Want to transfer that over to Stateside. And really I want to empower people to do the same thing. Like you said, having a female role model, there's not that many, especially on Broadway. I think there's only three female top choreographers that are working on Broadway. And I want to be one of those regular. I want to make it four. And I want to be one of those regular top ones that's going to win Tonys and Oliviers. That's where I want to go next. And you say that with such conviction. It's not a sort of a fuzzy, maybe dreamy thing. It's just kind of like, no, that's where we're going. That's what we're doing. And I find that a lot of the people who do make it, who get to have their dream come true, it's because they see it as a real thing. They don't see it as, oh, it's big and therefore it's difficult and therefore it won't, but they see it as it's inside me. It feels real to me. It's a must. I'm going for it now, and therefore, it must happen. And I think that you've got to do it. Just do it. Got to do it. Absolutely. So just one last word to anybody who's feeling right now that they can't even do the smaller thing. Like, maybe they're struggling to bring in the rent or the mortgage. Maybe they're struggling with their weight. Maybe they're struggling in various ways, and they may be saying to themselves, I can't even do the small stuff. And now Judy Mae and Zena are coming and saying, go big. What would you say to them? Well, even taking a small step forward is still going big to somebody who's struggling to take the one step forward. So, you know, just doing that one thing, even if it is in your mind small in the grand scheme of things, is actually a big step towards the thing that is your bigger dream. So I think, you know, I think there's. It's just a point of getting up and really just doing the smallest step forward. As long as it's forward, you're not going back. That's it. And then maybe making sure that you don't put a cap on it. So when you get to a certain point that you don't sit back and say, okay, now it's getting a little bit scary. But you go, yeah, now it's getting big. Now it's really, really starting to work. Let's do one more step forward. That's it. No matter what point you're at, it's just keep going. The only ways forward, you can't keep looking in the rear mirror, really. You've got to just keep going. Absolutely. Absolutely. Zenas, thank you so much for joining us today. You're welcome. Ladies, whoever's listening, you're very welcome to contact me through social media and to ask any question that you have. We've got loads of really great shows coming up over the next few weeks, and this is all fueled by you. I am listening to you. I'm hearing what it is that you're going through, what it is that you want. And so as a tribe that we can gather and say, yeah, you know what? We're safe in this, and we can really plan and we can really go big, we can make a lot of change in our life, that we're not stuck, we're not wrong, we're not small, but we are, in fact, empowered, particularly when we do that together. So please do get in touch. I would really love to hear from even more of you and thank you so much for your responses so far and see you soon on Judy May is Listening. Women's Radio station is looking forward to a great 2019 with more shows coming your way. All the presenters and the team behind each program would like to say a big thank you for listening. We are the voice of women worldwide and we cannot be without you. The journey has just begun with more exciting program soon to be revealed. Women's Radio Station the voice of women worldwide. I'm Isabelle Manevy, an executive coach. Do you want to change a negative into a positive? We can do this by encouraging you to rewire your brain using simple visualization techniques. In 20 years of practice I seen this transform lives. For more information, look on Women's Radio website. Call me on 079-844-22171. I'm listening. Mirae B Ltd. We are a virtual PA consultancy. We provide remote administrative services. Our offering is diverse. We manage your calendar, we update your client date, we take care of your property in France and in London. We also offer bookkeeping and translation services. Would you like to know more? Please call 077-8684-8998 for further information. Mirae B Limited making the life of the business owner successful. Do you need mediation? We are the A Project charity. We provide conflict resolution and community engagement services. Our services include community mediation for neighbour disputes, family mediation for separating couples, special education needs for parents, carers and their children and young adults, as well as workplace mediation and restorative services. To find out more head to womensradiostation.com or theaproject.co.uk let me tell you about Germany Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten. This is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is double www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk women's radio station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate simply head to our website. Every little will help.
