Judymay is Listening – Selma Nicholls

Welcome to Judy Mayers Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen, and together we transform everything. Welcome, welcome. You are in the right place. We are here today to let you know that you're doing better than you think. And things are working out and your dream is coming true. And we're gonna just clear away a lot of that head clutter that starts to seep in when we start to believe the things that are going on around us. And when we start to just feel human about it, we start to forget how amazing we are. I'm here to remind you every single week, live at noon, and then repeated at noon and midnight all during the week. We're here on WRS, Women's Radio Station, supporting women's wellbeing. So what does this mean to support your wellbeing? It's not just about bubble baths. It's not just about salads, though it is about that too. It's also about letting you know that you can recondition your brain and your entire nervous system to just feel better about your journey here. And I'm excited about today's show because it's going to be all about that. Now, remember back to when you were a little girl and there were sometimes you'd come up against a situation or a particular person and they would send you a message about yourself that maybe wasn't true. They'd send you a message that you weren't welcome. They would send you a message that you were somehow broken in some way, that you somehow should be ashamed of who you are. Or maybe they sent you a message that you just weren't as good as other people. Now, imagine, imagine if it wasn't just that, because it's not just that. We're getting messages all the time being sent to us unconsciously, simply through what is going on around us. So let's imagine that you are someone who, like all women, the default for the entire planet pretty much is that men are more visible, that they do these things where they take massive movies and they count, you know, how many words are said by men and how much screen time is given to men versus women. And we know already that women get a lot less screen time And when they do get screen time, it's often just because they're fulfilling a particular function, either for the plot or for the men within the plot. And we kind of take that as reality. Now imagine if it wasn't just that. Imagine if there was something else about you that wasn't getting adequately reflected out there in society. Imagine if the default setting for your culture was white and you're black or you're Asian. Or some other minority. Imagine if the default setting is straight and you're not straight, you're another color in the rainbow. Imagine if the default setting is for highly educated academically and you're not that, your genius lies elsewhere. How do you see yourself? How do you ever build up this message and this idea that somehow you are welcome, you are celebrated, you are here for a reason, and that you are as good as everybody else. And when we don't have that message being fed to us unconsciously, we've got to consciously fight for it. And that's what we're doing today. We are gonna be shining a massive light on what happens when you can't see yourself out in society. What is it that that looks like? And we're gonna be joined in a little while by Selma Nichols, who has the company Looks Like Me, a fantastic agency that's all about providing, um, different faces, faces that we need to see more of out there in the world. But I'm going to start off firstly with a little note that we got in from a woman called Maureen. And Maureen is a young woman. She says, "I'm really tall and 18 years old. I feel like a freak. I was videoed by a gang of boys on the tube last week." And she went on to describe the incident to me, saying how they were laughing and they were gaslighting her. They were sort of saying, "Oh, we're only joking. No, you're great. Eh, you're Wonder Woman." But still she knew that it was her physical difference that was being, um, picked out on. Like, she was being picked on because she was physically different. That was— she was being chosen and she was being made to feel less than because she didn't look the same as the other women. Like, she was, you know, 6'2" and the other woman in the carriage would have been probably like me. I'm very average height. I'm, uh, 5'6", 5'6.5", something like that. And Often we forget that there are people walking around who are in very, very different bodies. I'm able-bodied, but I do remember what it was like as a child to not be fully able-bodied and to have people kind of looking and following me and all that. But I was lucky that I had a condition that I could fix during my 20s. So what is it like? So Maureen, the first thing that I'd say to you, and then we're going to ask Selma what she thinks about this, the first thing I'm going to say to you is that difference is a requirement of us as humans, that, you know, we have to realize that with everything that is a gift, your enormous height is a gift. These days it's seen as a gift only if you can do modeling, but that is not the case. Actually, my cousin is 6'2" and her husband always tells her that he always had a thing for taller women so that when she walked into his bar, he saw her instantly and he might not have seen her and they might not be happily married with 2 kids for the last 25 years. So we don't know why this has been given to us, but first of all, we've got to not buy into this idea that because somebody else calls out our difference, that that makes our difference in some way wrong. Selma, you're all about this. You're all about calling out, you know, people for thinking that different is wrong and that somehow, you know, instant integration is the ideal. Um, tell us a little bit about what it is that you do and how it came about. Okay, thank you for having me. I, um, run a talent casting agency called Looks Like Me, and we are all about raising the profile of underrepresented groups, illuminating different people, and, um, creating platforms and pathways for them to be featured in mainstream advertising, within the arts, and different media platforms. So what was it in your life that made you want to do that in the first place? So I came from a theater background. I was a theater producer for many, many years. Loved that. I still love theater work, dance and theater. And that's all I really wanted to do until I had became pregnant. I had a child and it was when my daughter was around 3 and started questioning her identity. It was interesting because it was the first time that I realized I was really listening to my child and hearing her ask all these questions about wanting to have straight hair and wanting not to be brown. It really made me think, okay, where is this coming from? And because we had diverse books, diverse toys, diverse everything, and my hair's natural. And so I was like, where is this coming from? She wanted to look like the ladies in the adverts. And she was like, Mummy, you look so much prettier with straight hair, and, you know, and it was all very innocent. So at the age of 3, she had already picked up this message that somehow there was a better way to be, and that way wasn't her. Yes. And I went— and then when I, um, put on this DVD, I thought, okay, this is the last straw. I've got this DVD, let me see if this will work. And it was the remake of the film Annie. And so Annie was a childhood film that I loved. I remember, generally most everyone loves Annie. And this was a new remake with Jamie Foxx, and it had a little Black girl as the main lead role with Afro hair. And when she watched the film, she was like, "Mummy, she's so beautiful and she looks like me." And that's when I realized that, okay, let me start looking at the world through the eyes of a 3 going on to 4-year-old. And as I was looking around and on the train stations and billboards, and I never— I couldn't see the little Black girl featured anywhere in mainstream content. That was 2015, so things have changed a lot since then. And, um, I just went into automatic kind of pilot mode of, okay, it's not being done. There's no real room to get into debate and question into why. I'm a producer. Let's create something. Let me just create what isn't there and be the change we want to see. So what were the first steps to that? And did you meet any resistance to it? Because I presume people would be behind the idea, but then very often the people who are behind any idea and the instigation of anything new very quickly start to to, um, back off when it becomes real. So how, how it worked was I had— we had a small little flat, and I was in my kitchen, and I'll be literally cooking up ideas, right? So I had like lots of— I remember in the old flat we had lots of images on the kitchen floor— on the kitchen wall, like Radian's colorings or paintings. And, um, it was a collaboration of every time I had another idea, I would ask her about colors or things that she could stimulate what I was doing. This was like a penny idea. And I remember building, having a book, and I'd be scribbling and writing, typing and creating this thing. And it was one day I spoke to a friend and I said, listen, I've got this idea. I think it's really amazing. I've registered the company Looks Like Me, and I want to let you know how we can, um, I don't know how I can take this forward. And she was like, 'You need to get a startup loan.' And I was like, 'From who? Who's going to give me a startup loan?' She was like, 'Go to Virgin. Virgin Startup are amazing. They're phenomenal.' I was like, 'Great.' I was like, 'Have you done it?' She was like, 'No.' I was like, 'Oh, okay, great. How am I going to— how will I know if I'm going to get it?' And then that was the process. That was the start where things just changed because then I applied. And yeah. What I love about that is the fact that you didn't let it go. No, you know, you said, okay, that's not just a conversation that I need to have with my daughter, and now she feels better, and, you know, thanks Annie, and let's move on. Yeah. Um, but you, you said no, you saw this as a systemic problem. You saw this as a systemic problem that you could fix and heal. And, um, and then you, when you didn't have answers, you didn't let the lack of answers stop you either. So I imagine it was that, it was, you were that passionate about it. That's because that's what I love about, um, companies that in the initial stages didn't have load of money handed to them is— it's kind of like it's proof of the passion, isn't it, that you, that you have to keep going. And I can sort of see you there. Yes, in, in the kitchen. I did one year of research and development because that wasn't— ad land and advertising the media wasn't my world, so I had to make sure that I did the research. And one year of solid research prepared me for the next stage. That sounds like when Elon Musk learned how to build rocket ships, because he's like, yeah, you can get a book on it. I just love that you just go in and say, right, I don't know it, I will figure it out. I figure it out. Yeah, well, after the ads, we're going to come back with Selma, and we're going to be looking at, um, you know, the broader implications for this, the great changes that are happening, and hearing some, um, stories, because I know she's got some amazing stories about unexpected things that happened when she was, um, putting people out there into the world that the world wasn't expecting. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan, and welcome to Love Lessons Live on Women's Radio Station. Hello. And welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie May Is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy, and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being, and we're talking all things autism. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon. I'm a birth doula and mum of three, and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show, From Tummy to Mummy, here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health. Everything fertility, pregnancy, birth, and baby related, right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. Hello, my name is Ingrid Marsh on Women's Radio Station, and coming soon is the Radical Wellbeing Show. To help support women's wellbeing, each show I share the airwaves with ordinary women like me and you doing extraordinary things. Women who have overcome huge obstacles in their lives who are now here with me to empower you. On the Radical Wellbeing Show, you'll be inspired to kick away the roadblocks and live your life to the fullest. If you're ready to get radical about your wellbeing, then this is the show for you. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover, and mental health advocate, and you can listen to my show Get Booked here at Women's Radio Station daily at 5 AM and 5 PM. Throughout my shows, we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chat to authors, publishers, and book enthusiasts, all with the theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well-being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch at presenters@womensradiostation.com. Join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci, and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own, and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website at mediamattersforwomen.org. You're listening to Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women, and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter @WomensRadioStation, that's Women's Radio Station, or Facebook Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to Judy May Is Listening. This is Judy May Murphy. I'm joined in studio today by Salma Nichols, and we're talking about what happens when out there in the world you don't see people who look like you. She is the founder, owner, wonder woman of this incredible company that is making sure that we start to see— well, the word diversity, I think, Salma, is a little bit overused. Sometimes when we get really used to a word, we almost don't hear it anymore. But, but really, that's it, isn't it? Different kinds of faces. So what was the first time that you put a different face out there? Who was it? What was it on? And how did that feel to you? Okay, so I— once I applied for the Virgin Startup, I had a 3-month period window where I had to create a business plan, and I had been given a business advisor. And what was really interesting, I In the third month, in the last week, I handed in the business plan and she was like, this is amazing, it's great, fantastic, Selma, but it's just aspirational paperwork. And I was like, oh, okay. And she was like, yes, you need to get buy-in from the industry. And I was like, well, I've got 5 days, it's not really possible. She was like, figure it out. So I went away, figured it out, and on the last day, the last hour, I was able to get, um, a wonderful woman called Lindsay Hunt. She, um, She's the casting director for different brands, but for Next. And Next put me through to her and I had like a 1-minute pitch moment. Pitched and then she said, and then she said, "Let me see some of your children." I was like, wow, amazing. I let Virgin know this and then they put me forward and put the application forward. And the following week that child got the job and was on the face of Next autumn 2016 in the UK and Japan. So that was the first time that I had seen that. And was that a little black girl? Little black boy. Little black boy, great. Yeah. And, and wow, and what I— wow, I didn't know that, that that was in Japan as well. So yeah, like my face was featured in Japan. Yeah, it's actually global because I've spent quite a lot of time in Japan and, and again, you don't see a lot of diversity. Yeah, kind of like American. Yeah. But, uh, you know, it's mostly sort of Taiwanese and Japanese people that you see in there. Exactly. It was amazing that they used the image for their campaign both here and there, and it really showed me that, okay, there's a place for us in the market, there's a place for us to be seen. And we are— we do what the other talent agencies do and the other casting agencies do. However, we do shine a light on different groups that we feel may want or need that visible platform. And how has that grown? Do you find now that when you approach people, they sort of say, oh yes, we need that? Or are you still at the stage of having to convince them that they need that? No, I think the media world, advertising world have really come come a long way. And as you can see, lots— all content, whether it's on TV or radio, everywhere you look, I think we can see there's a great representation, um, of inclusivity and difference. And that's been celebrated. We still got a long way to go. And also, I feel like now people are realizing that as well as having that, um, celebrating that difference in front of the camera, that it's equally important to have that diverse team behind the camera. So that's where the conversation, I feel, is moving to, is realizing all places and spaces should be a reflection of our wonderful country. So once you have, um, you know, different kinds of faces and different kinds of bodies, um, you know, being shown on camera and actually being in the studio, whether that is a recording studio, a radio studio, a TV studio, um, or out filming somewhere, it just— the whole space becomes less generically white, as it were. Yes. And, and also becomes more, um, like something happens, something magical, something beautiful happens when you lots of different people working within production and also talent on screen, something really authentic and culturally special happens. And where people in front of camera feel really relaxed and comfortable as well as people off camera. And you learn new things. Everyone's learning on a different level.. And I think that has been the interesting process so far, is working with different teams and our teams that we work with are always inclusive and diverse. And yeah, we all learn new things. That's interesting you say that because actually Ellie, who was in last week, was saying that exact same thing, that she would often go in to a meeting and not only would she be the only woman, but she'd also be the only Black person in the room. Yeah. And that when you can actually see someone like you in the room, it gives that extra layer of of just permission, for want of a better term. Just, yes, that idea of yes, of course you belong here. Exactly. And it's about being in those positions of power and influence that allows then your voice to be heard, because you can be in the room but sometimes not be heard. But when you have that, when you're in that position, you have to use that role in a meaningful way to make sure that change can happen and Yeah. So what do you think about those different stories that happen where an African-American woman was cast in the role of The Little Mermaid? I think it's wonderful. But the uproar was like, it's kind of like, well, they'll get used to it. They'll get used to it. I love that. You know, come on. And I love that hand gesture you did. Yeah, let's move with the times. We'll get used to it. You know, it's beautiful. It's about it's about, it's about representing. Everybody deserves to be represented, everyone. And, you know, the, the mermaid can be Black, the mermaid can be Asian, the mermaid can be white. It's fine. It's a mermaid. A mermaid can be any, you know, can look at, can look like anything. So, and I mean, I think it's important that we, we represent different people in these different roles and celebrate that difference. Because it makes the world such an interesting place, you know. I love the way you just, you meet that pushback, you meet that just with absolute spirit. Yeah. Um, rather than sort of like, well, they have to understand, and that rigidity, you're just kind of like, oh, we're gonna do it anyway. Anyway, yeah, you'll come along on the train, you'll jump on when it's time for you to jump on, you know. Otherwise you're gonna get left behind, and no one wants to be left behind. Yeah, I love that because that's almost, that's telling people who are really like rigidly stuck in a very nasty position. That's like saying to them, you know, this is your loss because it is. We're heading to the good place, you know, so we're on the train, the train is moving. And so it's like, and that's the thing, it's not a fight. It's not you have to do this. And it's actually, if you don't want to do it, that's fine because we will create it and we'll make it happen. And then everybody wants to be part of something that's bright and colorful and meaningful and makes people smile and feel, you know, and spirit-led. So that's the way I approach life. That's the way I approach Looks Like Me. And it really works for us, you know, and being part of that wider conversation and change. And how will you know? At what point will you know that this has really worked in the broadest terms? Is there a moment where you're like, wow, when I managed to cast a whole feature film, um, when I managed to, um, you know, get like, you know, whatever it is, some kind of advertising gig, do you know what that will look like, or do you have a feeling what that will be like? That's a beautiful question, Judy, because people ask me— this question is lovely because now you're taking me into a place where I can really, um, share my, my dreams and I guess the whole— the journey of Looks Like Me has been the success. So success for us is everything we do has had a massive meaningful impact on people's lives off screen, on screen, and, um, and I've been able to be part of that. And so for me, the success is in the— success, sorry, is in the journey. However, if one day I— we were able to have our Looks Like Me studio office in London, which is open now, but we have one also— to have one also in California and maybe one in Japan and one in Africa, and being able to work on multiple feature films and be cast in, you know, global campaigns. And, and having that workforce represented around the world for me would be like an ultimate dream goal because we know then we're having— we're creating change globally. That would be fantastic. Yeah. And maybe then to start to see diversity at things like the Oscars without them having to shout for it and push for it, that it's just— and that, that is just natural. Exactly. Everybody can see themselves on a red carpet. Yes. Yes, and I have to really shout out that there are so many amazing people doing great things. So for me, for instance, like seeing recently we've had a child who's just got into a great film and knowing that, that the casting directors and the director are from the States and they're working with young people from the UK. And so that global collaboration is already happening in different ways and being part of that change on whatever level for me is the, is the biggest and best thing ever. So that young people that probably a couple of weeks ago didn't think that this would be their new destination, but now they see themselves being featured in, in major films is just— yeah. And of course, we're also celebrating the people who went very, very first. Yes, exactly. Do you have any heroes in those terms? So for me, so my I guess, um, I wouldn't call her a hero, but my cheerleader, who— the person who probably inspires me the most is the lady who opened the door to me to the media world, and that's Karen Blackett. And she is so warm, loving, caring, generous with her time, and she has been beside me the whole way, probably because she knew this was brand new to me, but she— her belief in me allowed me to fly to places that I never expected. And I work hard, I make sure that our teams work hard and we deliver. And so women like that that have opened the doors for me have allowed me now to open the doors for others, and now into global partnerships where we're going to be working and representing other women coming through as well. So Yeah. And last week we were talking about that being Toni Morrison's legacy, her message of, you know, it's not enough just for you to get there yourself. No, you then, you know, bringing up other women and making sure that you can shine a light on what they're doing. It's a must. It shows the gratitude. It's the gratitude process of actually opening that door and bringing others with you. Yeah. Keeping that flow going. Yes. And we're going to be talking after the break a little bit more about how we can be better allies. Those of us who are more sort of traditional looking in media terms, how is it that we can help bring that forward. We're also going to be looking at other aspects, other industries that can be impacted in this way and what we can do, what we can all do together to make this even better. Welcome to the Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station is all about diversity, from opinions, career, ethnicity, education, and most importantly, women's well-being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. 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Women's Radio Station can give voice to your brand with a wide range range of sponsorship opportunities, including individual programs. We can tailor your experience for you. For more information on how you can sponsor a show, go to womensradiostation.com. Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Welcome to Judy May is Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen, and together we transform everything. Welcome back. I'm Judy May Murphy. You're here on WRS, women's radio station supporting women's well-being. And we always have a full house. I love that, like, even if it's just me and Melis, it always feels just full of all the good stuff here in the studio. But today we have an actual full house. So we have, um, Riley-Ann is here with us, Selma's daughter, and, um, she's being very, very good sitting there, and, um, she's winning all the prizes for, for best dressed, definitely. She's just got— wearing all the colors, got a really great bag with her, um, and she's 7 years old. And this is, I think— is this your first time? You can just nod. Is this your first time here on a radio studio. Yeah, is it, is it alright? Is it okay? Okay, yes, we're getting yeses. And we have Melis, our technical producer, and as always we have Elspeth. Elspeth is our associate producer, and Elspeth was saying something interesting there during the break that you, you were wondering about, you know, what, what else can be done. So I struggled with with when people would just say to me, because I've got naturally curly hair, I'm very pale naturally. Oh, you are. And, uh, yeah, I'm— I've dyed my hair, straightened my hair, I tan my skin, um, I do it all. And people just say, well, just embrace it, your natural beauty. But I've never known— just saying it to someone you don't know how to. And I definitely think with the posters and everything, finding Representation, it can help, but like, you know, how can we— while we're waiting for the posters to take effect, as it were, yeah, and how are there other things that we can do? Yeah, yeah. So about a year ago, I, I had a year and a half ago, I had a massive afro, really big curly fro. Loved it. It felt like, you know, this is my mane, my beauty. And then I dyed it and I left the dye on too long. I used to dye it all the time and I dyed it one time let it die on for too long and it went permanently dead straight. And this wasn't the look I was looking for. And I was like, you know, what am I going to do? So I decided, okay, I'm going to cut my hair. And I gave the scissors to Ryleanne and I said, I trust you, please, can you cut this hair off? So she cut the hair off. She was loving it, chopping away. And then obviously she cut it all off. There was patches and stuff. So I had to go to the barbers the next day and get a shave. It off so it was one level. So it was really, really short. That for me was probably the most bare and awkward moment of my life. I felt very uncomfortable with just seeing myself with no hair, bare. And even now it's growing back, but it's at this awkward length and I feel very uncomfortable most of the time. And then Ryleanne will turn to me and say, but you're 'You're wonderful. This is how your hair just grows out of your head naturally. You're beautiful. Embrace it.' Because as women, we are taught that our beauty is very attached to our hair. Yes. And it's even more so for Black women. Yes. And so, for instance, so me walking out, so it's interesting about what you're saying about having your hair straight and, you know, and it's naturally curly. But for me, it's a thing of you have to just go for it. Get used to that uncomfortable feeling. Just go through it. Yeah, go through it, because after a while you start to become comfortable with feeling uncomfortable, and then you realize actually it's not that bad. It's all in within us. So, and yeah, this is an awkward stage, and it's fine because in a year's time it will be— it will grow and it will flourish and it will be— and I had no idea that it was a work in progress. It looks like a done deal. It looks like you designed it that way. Yeah, no, there's So it's like going through the process and learning to really love yourself and connect with yourself. And that's a journey. And there's no easy way of doing that. You have to just allow yourself to go through that process, get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable. And over time, yeah, you'll come good. Do you remember a couple of years ago there was that thing about posting a selfie of yourself without makeup on? And I, um, I, I never— I didn't do that. Yeah, I gotta admit, I didn't do it. And I never go out without makeup on. And then one day I just couldn't be bothered, and I went to the shops, and nobody fainted, nobody screamed. It was fine. I still got smiled at. Yeah. And, and as you say, just sometimes the doing is the only way that you're going to learn. Exactly. It's going to be like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna step out into this, whether that is getting a loan for your business or having your hair a certain way or not wearing makeup, and just 'Oh wow, actually I can survive this.' But at that time, the thing that really used to make me laugh was that I've got a lot of friends in show business, like TV hosts and actresses, and they would put on an amazing nude makeup and then take it and post it as if it was like not wearing any makeup. It's just kind of like, 'Oh yeah, because you were born with your eyebrows filled in.' Nobody was born with their eyebrows filled in. Except maybe Frida Kahlo. And this is what we have to realize is that, you know, we're all struggling against, you know, this idea of what we're supposed to be. But then we also have to acknowledge that for some people, the struggle is a lot bigger. It's a lot more systemic. Do you also, in your agency, do you also provide people who aren't able-bodied? Yes. Yes. With different disabilities and abilities. Some of them are visible, some of them are invisible. We don't highlight that because we see all children as beautiful and unique in their own different ways. And also culturally, culturally, like people from the Caribbean and African backgrounds, that might not be something that they want to highlight. Their child's just a normal, beautiful child. And so we just celebrate all children No matter what. So there's not this idea of, you know, she's disabled. What kind of, what kind of difference do you want? We have all these different flavors that it's just— we're just, we're just beautiful human beings. Yeah. And, and we want to be part of these amazing campaigns and it's our job to facilitate and make that happen and position children. And what does it do for the children and the parents when they're welcomed into your agency? One is a sense of belonging. It's a sense of belonging to something that represents their children in a really positive light. It also— a lot of the parents are aware that we, we have more parents and children that want to be part of Looks Like Me than we have work coming in. So some children may be part of the agency and not get no work, but we'll try and see how we can celebrate children on our own. Platform, and that sometimes is enough for people. Um, just to know that you're chosen, because how many of us have felt left outside the door simply because the more, you know, the better looking kids or the more popular kids were the ones that were always chosen for everything? Yeah. Now most of us just have to survive the fact that that happened, you know, in the— with the school nativity play or whatever. But if you have to then face that in every aspect of your life, it obviously goes a lot deeper. And for me, I really enjoy when we select— when we have our open days and we bring children in, the selection process for me isn't about how cute they are, or— it's about that child's spirit, like how free they are in their spirit. So if a child's really shy, or a child's really angry, or a child's really like doesn't want to be there, those elements will make me say, okay, well, maybe it's not the right time, or this isn't the right place. But the children that can just, you know, wander and be free and allow themselves just to go with the process. Those are the children that I find really interesting, the ones that have this inner confidence to just say, hi, I'm Jane, and just want to, you know, just be. And sometimes you have to meet the child to see that, because then you know that when they go for an assignment, they'll be able to handle that environment because they have that natural— they won't traumatize and they'll in fact— yeah, they won't be— yeah. So we'd like to meet the young people first just to make sure that they're prepared and ready for what's ahead. And we offer workshops for that if children really need, because some children come in, they're super duper shy. My daughter is super duper shy. So it's like allowing them to have a safe space to explore their voice, their creativity, and yeah, until they're prepared, until they're ready to go out there. I suddenly remembered that about 20 or 30 years ago, yeah, about 30 years ago, the United Colours of Benetton All those ads had like, well, the whole theme was, you know, different colors, different races, different kids being put together, um, different garments being put together. Where did that go to? I don't know, but I remember myself also at school having the Benetton bag. We all had it, like we had the Benetton bags, and it was like a brand that everyone loved and we all celebrated. It was huge, wasn't it? Like the '80s, '90s, enormous. And I guess, you know, things change and things change in waves. And hopefully now this is the new wave where people are realizing that this is the right way to be doing things and it's a healthy way for everyone to be seen and represented in the best light possible and also authentic stories to be told. So it's really important for us to where we can, we tell untold stories. So give us an example of what one of those stories might be. So it might be, there may be, so when we did a campaign and we were casting directors for a Tesco back-to-school ad, and I had never seen a Filipino family on screen before. And so it was really important that when we selected the different families for the campaign, that we really went deep in presenting all those families that we had never seen before, or a same-sex female family that actually And I remember the parents saying to me, Selma, but we're kind of butch and people might not want to see us on TV. And I was like, no, you're beautiful and your twins are beautiful and your story deserves to be heard and seen on screen. And they got the job and the Filipino family got the job. And, you know, so putting the blended family got the job. And so it is making sure that different people and their stories are told through great brands like Tesco and Sainsbury's and Yeah. And then I guess as people see that more and more, particularly as people are growing up with that, that then becomes the new normal as it should be. Exactly. And yeah, so after the break, we're going to be talking a lot more about this. I want to really get down into the details of different fun things that have happened, wins that you've had in your company, things we can look forward to, because sometimes it can feel just like a little bit like the, you know, the pushback from the not so nice people can sometimes— on some days it can feel like it's winning. And so these kind of stories of victory, I think, are so important to remind us that at the end of the day, the lovely people always do win out. The lovely people, the lovely voices, the lovely messages, the lovely stories. We've got way more after this. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan, and welcome to Love Lessons Live on Women's Radio Station. Hello and Welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie May Is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy, and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being, and we're talking all things autism. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon. I'm a birth doula and mum of 3, and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences, please join me for my brand new show, From Tummy to Mummy, here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything fertility, pregnancy, birth, and baby related, right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. Hello, my name is Ingrid Marsh on Women's Radio Station, and coming soon is the Radical Wellbeing Show. To help support women's wellbeing, each show I share the airwaves with ordinary women like me and you doing extraordinary things. Women who have overcome huge obstacles in their lives who are now here with me to empower you. On the Radical Wellbeing Show, you'll be inspired to kick away the roadblocks and live your life to the fullest. If you're ready to get radical about your wellbeing, then this is the show for you. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover, and mental health advocate, and you can listen to my show, Get Get Booked here at Women's Radio Station daily at 5 AM and 5 PM. Throughout my shows, we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chat to authors, publishers, and book enthusiasts, all with the theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well-being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch at presenters@womensradiostation.com. Join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci, and I'm the executive director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own, and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website at MediaMattersForWomen.org. You're listening to Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women, and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter @WomensRadioStation, that's Women's Radio S-T-N, or Facebook Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to Judy May Is Listening. This is Judy May Murphy, and we have been here for the last 45 minutes with Selma Nichols talking all about how important it is that, um, we are all seeing ourselves out there, that everybody's being represented, not just the more traditional, um, working people. A point that in this last ad break that was brought up by Elspeth is this idea that, you know, how can you beat the whole typecasting thing? People, they have an idea about what works and they've got a certain amount of money on the line and it's often very big money. If you're in this phase, if you like, where they're just learning that these ads can be very successful, if you have someone maybe who's been working for 20 years in the industry doing it a particular way and they they want to typecast, they want to go with what they know works. What happens with that? Is that a thing that you meet, or are people actually surprisingly open to trying something new? The big money people. So when I have my casting director hat on, I feel it's my duty, my duty of care to present an array of difference. So if they're looking for a particular type of child, I will always throw in a few others that they're not asking for, that they're not looking for, because I believe they need to see. Um, and so that's how I work. Um, it's about sometimes showing people what they're not aware of that actually kind of like you might— who they should consider. Yeah. So I know it's not at all the same, but the thing that jumped into my brain was, you know, those TV shows they have where they are showing a bride all these dresses and the bride is kind of like, "Mm, don't like this one, don't like this one." And then they bring out something that's really left of center and they sort of say, "Well, what about this?" And it's something they weren't considering. But once they try it on, they see that, "Oh, in fact, that does work." Exactly. So for instance, last year they had the Black Panther film that came out. And so I approached the BFI and I said, You know, I would love to do something. Tell us what BFI is. So the British Film— yeah, the British Film— gosh, British Film Institution. Great. And got there in the end. And so I approached them and said, I would love to do a collaborative project celebrating this film coming out in the Looks Like Me way. And they were like, okay, sounds really interesting. Sent us a proposal, sent the proposal in. They were like, really great, really strong. And then I got a callback a couple of weeks later after Christmas saying, Selma, yes, we're really interested. I thought, great. I thought that was a yes. I went away, got a team together. I got some children together because I thought, okay, I'm going to celebrate this film by getting children who look like or resemble these characters. And there was a few characters that were from the UK, the adult ones as well. So I thought, let's celebrate them. I then got a phone call to say, Yes, we would love you to do some content celebrating the premiere, the preview coming to the BFI. I thought, that's great, because I've already got everything in place and we're shooting tomorrow, so it would have been a problem if you said no. We did this shoot, the images were so impactful that they went viral twice around the world, around the globe. I met the director, Ryan Kluger, who was like, this, what you've done is way beyond what I would have expected anyone to do in celebrating this film. So to give us a picture, what did, what did these pictures look like? So they looked— so they were children because obviously we serve children. There were children versions of the main characters in the Black Panther film. And I picked up as if they were acting out, as if they were acting out. Yes. So they were, they were envisioning and they found their superpower and they were celebrating the same pose that the adult was doing. And that was just— that was me working with a great team and we were celebrating the hero is in us all. So that letting these little children know this is the first film that children from— little Black children could see heroes in there represented that look like them. And I thought, actually, this is something that needs to be celebrated on a high level. Like what this gentleman is doing is fantastic with Disney. So But yeah, that's what we did. But then is there a worry that, or is there a chance that people will then see that as being somehow a gimmick? And that when you go back in again, like, let's go back to the Tesco's ad and you have these different families. Is there a chance that next year they'll say, "Oh, we did that last year." There is a chance that they'll say that we did that last year. That's why Looks Like Me is here. 'cause as I, we did a campaign called the So White campaign. And that was really supported heavily by the advertising industry. And it was amazing. And we did 3, Christmas So White, Summer So White, Easter So White. And I made a statement that these children that we're representing and like me, myself, I'm Black for life. So actually we're here for life. The images and the content of all people that needs to be diverse diverse for life because that's part of our society. We're part of the— we bring and raise the economy. And so it's important that things aren't just a one-off thing. And actually having Looks Like Me and other agencies that are here to say, actually, you need to be reminded or you need to be consistently creating images and content that reflect all people, I think is really important. And that's what we're here to do. And have you ever come across anyone— we won't mention— or you can if you want to mention where it happened. But have you ever met people who are openly reluctant? Yes, I had a lot of resistance, and resistance comes in different ways where you get no work coming in and it's quiet for months on end. And so in order to kind of— passive way of— yeah, there's no work coming in, then there's, there's no money being made. And so I had to sell my hat— I wouldn't have to, I chose to sell my— I chose to sell my house, because I believe if you believe in something, you will sacrifice everything for what you believe in. And so sacrificing and selling the home and the car allowed me to invest in time, because the main thing about what we're doing is patience, right? You need to have the patience, and to have patience, you need to have time, and to have time, you need to have money. And so if we don't— if I didn't invest in myself and what I believe in, It's allowed people to see us and realize that we're not going anywhere and we've put in the work and we deliver the work. So yes, that has allowed us to give us time while people are coming around to this new way of working and collaborating. And as well as that more passive resistance of just not getting in contact with you, not pushing the money your way, has anyone actively spoken out and said, that they don't think it's necessary or they don't understand it? Or— Yes, sometimes we speak to people and I do lots of talks and I can tell that sometimes people are not interested. People— and it's okay, it's okay. I can see that people are not interested. People do not think, why do we need to change things? Things have been working well for so long. Why? Why? And I'm not here to convince people to why they need to change. I'm just here to do the right thing. And that is the foremost— that is, that's at the forefront of everything we do. We are going to create the work whether people want to see it or not, because it needs to be done. It's the right thing to be doing. Diverse thinking is a healthy way. It makes great business sense. And, and I guess if you were to just argue back with everybody all the time, you'd be too exhausted to get on and do that. Exactly. Why not reflect people that are going to actually spend their money money and buy your products or buy into your campaign or watch your film. Why not? So that's the question that I think those people with resistance need to be left with. They can sit there and be thinking, why not, to themselves while everyone else is making money, living a fruitful, happy, you know, life, enjoying the content that others are creating. So yeah, that's where I stand on that side. So, uh, Elsbeth, what is it that you're always really good at you know, summing up what the listener is hearing, what would be a takeaway that you'd have from today's show? So my 3 takeaway points would be: difference is a requirement, be the change you want to see, and meet pushback with spirit. Oh yes, I mean, all that, all that. Absolutely, absolutely. You know what, I'm gonna actually take those from you after the show and put them up on Instagram because I think that's just, that's exactly what Salma has been communicating to us here today. How can those of us who fall into the more traditional way of looking, how can we be better allies? You can be better allies. And I say this all the time through my Instagram posts is recommend us to a friend, recommend us to that art director, recommend us to the casting director, recommend us to the brand, recommend us to the creative agencies. Don't just patronize. We get a lot of work. Yeah, we get a lot of work via recommendation that people say, and actually I've worked with them, or I know someone that has worked with them, or actually just check them out, um, get to know them, have a conversation. Um, we're here, we're ready to work, we're ready to put the work in, and we're pretty darn good as well at what we do. Yes, yes, you are. Absolutely, absolutely. I'm really excited to see what happens, um, with you um, over the next few years and over the next few months? And, um, how can people get in contact with you? So we've just entered a new global partnership with Getty Images. So if you're a female photographer, we'll be creating and dedicating a platform for female photographers to be seen and their work to be celebrated. Um, so that's a wonderful way to get engaged with us, a meaningful way that can actually support and help other women as well.. And then what is the best website or email address? Okay, that's www.lookslikeme.co.uk. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at Looks Like Me UK. And, um, yeah, get in touch. We're here and we're, we're waiting to hear from you. Oh, fantastic. I just, I love that, the inclusiveness of that, because again, other agencies, it's kind of like, you know, unless you absolutely conform to these criteria where you are left outside, but you're saying, no, this is very welcoming. This is about all of us growing together. And I really, really love that. Thank you. And thank you to all of you who wrote in about your own struggles to see yourself in the world, particularly to Maureen, who we were talking about at the top of the show. And Maureen, you know what? Hopefully this spirit, this inclusiveness, the joy, the fact that you are a part of the tribe and that with the work of Selma Nichols and many other women like her, we are going to start to see people who represent you and all of us. And we're going to be able to celebrate that moving forward. So next week, as usual, we go live at noon, and then you can listen to Judy May Is Listening at noon and midnight throughout the week. And keep your questions coming in because we are here for you. I am listening. Welcome to the Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station is all about diversity, from opinions, career, ethnicity, education, and most importantly, women's well-being. 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