Judymay Is Listening LIVE SHOW – Creativity + Power, Rosie Brooks

Welcome to Judy Mayer's Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen and together we transform everything. Hello and welcome to Judy Mae Is Listening. This is Judy Mae Murphy coming to you live from WRS women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. And today we're going to be talking about a fascinating topic, something that affects everybody and that is creativity. My guest a little later on is going to be Rosie Brooks, an illustrator, an amazing artist and someone who I've gotten to know through the art world over the last couple of years. And I just, I love the way she thinks, I love the way she lives and yet going to love that too. And we're going to hopefully not even hopefully, we're absolutely going to be listening to what it is that you have to say and transforming that. Because sometimes when something is as esoteric, as kind of fuzzy as creativity and artistry, it's kind of hard to get a grip on it. What is it? How is it different for women? By the way, I love the fact that we are sitting here and we've got a room full of people working and it's all, all women. And I love that about women's radio station. It may sound like a really, really obvious thing to say, but very often throughout my life I've been on other radio stations and I can count on less than one hand the amount of times where it's been, where it's been consistently an all women team. And that feels really, really good because it creates a safe space and this is a safe space. We're also going live on a Facebook live, so if you're joining us there, please do type in comments as we go. Any questions that you have, and we will absolutely fold you into this because you're part of this discussion too, part of this community. So first of all, the first note that we got, I edited these down quite considerably, but this is the gist of it. Maggie from Worcester, Massachusetts says, I'm really creative. I make clothes for friends and write short stories and I've started painting, but I'm really bad at making money. Now. I now this, I love this because this is an idea that is just so hooked into our culture that we don't even question it. Sometimes we think that being really creative, being a wonderful artist in whatever way, whether it's with food, whether it's with embroidery, whether it's with sculptures, whether it's with buildings, that being creative is somehow the same as being not good with money. And that is not the case. It really, really isn't the case. At least it doesn't have to be. I really love also what Seneca. He said something in terms of philosophy, which is, you know, thinking creatively. And he said, you know, who said that philosophers can't be rich? Whoever condemned philosophy to poverty? And it's, you know, that's heavily paraphrased, but that's pretty much what he said was, you know, who said that wisdom has to be poor? And in the same way, who says that beauty and harmony need to go hand in hand with poverty, that somehow you have to choose one or the other. And equally, there's this idea that once artists and creative people become either more popular and usually with popularity comes more money, that then somehow they've sold out, somehow their artistry has become less. And I think that we have this belief more for women than we do for men. So if you look at artists like Jeff Koons or Damien Hirst or even Pablo Picasso in his day, and we look at the fact that nobody really called them out for becoming extremely wealthy and popular, it seemed to just be part of it. But women's art and women's creativity does seem to be judged in a very, very different way. So, for example, we have women all around the world who are making these lovely meals for their families, right? And, yes, I know guys make meals now as well, but just we know that it's still more women who make meals for those families, and they do a really, really great job. And then you'll see a guy on TV who's a chef, and he'll be doing that same exact thing, but he'll kind of be talking it up more. He'll be presenting it as if it's an amazing thing. Like, look, I put a basil leaf on. This is fresh basil. And somehow his fresh basil is different and somehow lesser to the fresh basil that you bring in from your kitchen garden every day. Do you get what I'm saying here? That, you know, just the fact of something being a woman doing it, it seems to be less. And then as soon as a man does it, it's amazing. So if a woman, say, styles herself and her friends beautifully, that that is seen as. That's just what women do as soon as it's a really flamboyant, amazing, great man doing it, and again, they can do it absolutely brilliantly. But as soon as it's that and he's asking for money for it, the fact of asking for money, expecting money, the way that it's positioned, seems to elevate it. It seems to elevate the artistry. We think of it as being more valuable. It seems to elevate the status of the person doing the art, and it very much elevates the lifestyle of the person who is receiving the money for that. So I would say, Maggie, before you go out there and try any strategy around it, I'd look at that. I'd look at how are you valuing yourself in the world? Are you seeing that what you do, you don't have to charge less for it simply because it's you doing it and it's a thing that you maybe take for granted, have a look and see the person who's doing that and charge the most for it. So is there someone who is hand making a dress, say, very similar to one that you made for your friend or your cousin, and charging, say, $700 or $1,000 or even $5,000, and then that can be your benchmark? Ah. Rather than comparing myself to, you know, how much more than nothing can I make, which a lot of artists do and a lot of women do, how can I get the bare minimum so I can get by? Instead, let's look at how can I do really well with this? How can I elevate myself? And I know as women we are, you know, partly conditioned and partly hardwired to keep ourselves small, to create that community, to not do the one upmanship, to not be competitive and. And I know I'm very much like that. And I've had to learn how to say, yeah, you know what, I am doing something different. I have trained myself in these various things. I'm doing more, I'm giving more, and my expectation is that I get more money back. So get rid of any idea that what you're doing is of less value. Just maybe get around people who are willing and able to pay you for it. I love the phrase we train people how to treat us. And as women, I think we have been training people to kind of take us for granted and to presume that we're going to give the discount and we're going to do it for less, and we're going to be happily doing it for less, and we're going to be accepting love and approval or a quick hug in place of money. And that really is what we need to change around. So, Maggie, thank you so much for that one. And that's something that we're going to be chatting about with Rosie Brooks, because I know that Rosie is very successful, runs her own business and is a well known artist. And Rosie actually said a great thing to me once. She said, I'm self employed, not unemployed. And that really speaks to that idea of taking ourselves seriously and knowing that what we do does matter. So the next one that came in again I've heavily edited this down, is from Rhea in Dublin in Ireland, my hometown. And Rhea says, how can I be more creative? I'm really bad at finding new ways to dress or writing reports at work. I'm just not creative enough. And that to me is kind of a heartbreaking statement. This idea that people might see themselves as being non creative. It could just be that what you're really good at is you're so good at the more grounded stuff, the more practical stuff. And so you haven't needed to do so much of the really creative stuff. But in the same way as, you know, perhaps Maggie was thinking of herself as not being good at the practical stuff like money. Let's rethink ourselves here, Ria. Let's have a little look at what ways have you been creative. Have you been creative in the way that you are raising your children? Have you been creative in the way that you have set up some very practical things? You know, organizing a closet, getting things in order is very creative because basically you're taking an idea of something that doesn't exist and you're then making it exist and you're putting your stamp on that. That's how I would like this to exist. And the thing is that when we think we're not good at something, we close down to becoming good at it. It might be that you would like to become more creative. Fantastic. But if you're coming from a place of I'm not creative, you're going to sit outside of that arena and you're going to, you know, not be so willing to learn and not be so willing to try. So having that growth mindset of, you know what, let me just give this a go. Let me just write the report differently, badly. Or let me just wear something and risk looking like a seven year old who got the run of her mom's wardro. Let me just try that. Let me just risk it and learn from it and learn our way forward. Succeed by failing and not being afraid to fail, not being afraid to maybe look foolish or having to adjust midway through the day. Today we're going to be talking all about creativity, all about what that means to us as women. How can we use that to make our lives even more extraordinary? And how can we get over ideas that block us, ideas that we're creative, but we can't make money or we're so creative that no one will understand us or other things highly creative people believe is that they have to work in a particular field, like in art, they can't work in finances. So let's really just look at that and sound out what else is available to us. And also, how is women's creativity different perhaps from men's creativity? Or is it? And indeed, what is creativity in a more broader sense? So coming up, we have our guest, Rosie Brooks right after the ads. And Rosie is a full time artist who I'm going to give you a little bit of a teaser here. If you've been to a Paul McCartney concert and you've seen him taking out an illustrated guitar, you've already seen Rosie's work. And she also illustrates a great many books. Really. A children's book series that I absolutely love is her operatic series. So we'll be asking her all about that. And if you're tuning into us right now and you want to ask a question or you want to join in, you can do so today on Facebook Live. So just to finish off, Maggie, you know what, let's start applying that creativity differently. Let's start applying the creativity to whatever part of our life isn't working. So, Maggie, for you, that's in money. So how about we get really creative with money? How about you start to ask yourself the same kind of questions you ask before you paint a picture. You start to just do that. You call yourself a money artist? Hey, you know what? I'm a money artist. I can do this. I've got this. Or if getting into a relationship is your thing, how can you get more creative around that? So we've got this. Really looking forward to this next 45 minutes with you. Talk to you soon. Welcome to women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. This is women's radio station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism. And my guest today is Karen Noel. Welcome to future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on women's radio station. I listen to women's radio station, Women's radio station. We want to hear from you women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, my name is Katie Young Gerald and I'm the founder of Bespoke Textiles and author of best selling book the Textile Touch. I've been working in luxury fashion and textiles for over 20 years. Five years. And I help brands design luxury bespoke uniforms to high end limited edition collections. We've been doing this for clients such as the Ivy Collection to Royal Households and we do it inside of a sustainable supply chain that saves waste. You can find us on bespoketextiles.co.uk hi, my name is Julia Sturland. I'm a figurative painter in oil and water colour. Please Visit my website juliasturland.com J U L I A S T E R L A N D or phone or text 079-865-63552 hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones, focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website at mediamattersforwomen.org Women's radio station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Hi, I'm Zena Moscone, Head of Business Development at Women's radio station Radio Advertising is the most cost effective way of reaching a huge audience globally. Moreover, our sponsorship and advertising packages can be tailored to your needs, whether it be a product or brand service you're looking to promote. If you are interested in sponsoring or advertising, please contact me on 079-563-71483 or alternately zmomensradiostation.com. This is Judy Mae Murphy and you are listening to Judy Mae Listens. So the next thing that we're going to do is we're going to introduce you to Rosie Brooks. Rosie Brooks is an extraordinary artist, illustrator and creator. Very creative person who lives so creatively that when we, before Christmas a group of us went and did some, some carol singing, some Christmas songs, and Rosie of course was the one to bring the jingle bells. And recently as well, Rosie showed up at a party and she was the one to bring the apron. So she does think of everything. So Rosie, have you always been creative and what do you think about creativity in general? Yes, I think so. I mean, I'm lucky enough to have been brought up in a very creative house. Both my parents were book designers and There was a lot of access to materials, access to art books, and there was a lot of music in the house. So I think your stimulus you have when you're very little creates an environment that seems norm. So I think. Whereas I have other friends that may well be very, very creative, but they've had to fight for their right to be, if that makes sense, as I think it was. It was on a plate. Absolutely. And do you think that it's something that's possible that when you get older that you can introduce more creativity or that you can become that kind of person, or do you think that once you've done the childhood thing, that it's pretty much set? Yeah, no, definitely. And I think it's important to be disembarrassed. I think things are easier to learn as children, like musical instruments and those kind of things, because you're in that mindset of being told what to do and accepting that at face value. Whereas I think as you get older, one questions things a lot more, which means it's actually harder to learn skills in that way because you tend to evaluate things step by step as opposed to just accepting stages of things. So language, languages and music are a lot harder to learn, to be able to actually create. But that's not to say that you can't then engage with things. It's just. I think it's just slightly more of a battle, but nonetheless, still a very valid one. And have you found that. That creativity, obviously there's that huge upside to it, there's sort of the gorgeous inner life, the appreciation for things around you. But do you find that that has meant, like Maggie has been finding, that it was harder for you then to earn money? Yes, definitely. And I think again, that sort of comes with the territory that there was never an expectation that the illustration I was doing, or in fact sort of anything like that would ever earn a huge amount of money. It wasn't that one would expect to be completely broke, but it was compared to maybe working in the city or other jobs where there's an expectation where you. You have a certain daily rate, as it were. Whereas I think with a lot of creative practices, there is an expectation that, A, you work for free for a good number of years, which you wouldn't in other areas, other industries, and B, that you never really get paid fully, whatever that rate may be. You only ever get about 70% once you've. You don't, you don't. All the preparation doesn't get paid for. Whereas in other jobs you have a daily rate you go into work and your. You're paid every day you're there, even if you're actually only productive for 25% of that. Whereas with creativity, it tends to be for the end product. Right. So you're productive 100% of the time and you get paid as if you're doing 70%. Yes, yeah, yeah, definitely that you're. That you're paid for the end result as opposed to the effort put in. I think that's quite common with a lot of creative practices and I think that's why the pay level is often lower. Is also definitely a gender thing, and I think less so now. I think people are very careful not to fall into the trap of sort of assuming just because you're female, you'll therefore accept less money. But I think it's still there. And I think illustration happens to be a very female choice of career. It's definitely not one. There's a lot of testosterone and I've had plenty of people say, oh, I know illustrators don't like talking about money. And I've been, yeah, I haven't got a problem with it. It's fine. And they're surprised. I'm just embarrassed about it. But it's from having survived financially in London as well. I think in a lot of instances, illustrators are maybe slightly further out of town where their cost of living is lower. It sounds as if it was. It's quite convenient for some people to have this idea that illustrators don't like talking about money and can therefore be exploited for that reason. And it is also connected to that sort of artist, Garrett Starving, equating to authenticity, which is exploited by commerce as well, that if you're asking for more money, that actually devalues how authentic you are as a. Or how authentic you are as person. So that gets challenged to say, you know, if you expect to be paid for it, then really it's not about the love of. So your practice doesn't have that earnest sense. And that's definitely something that I think, again, less so now. But it's something that I've been on the receiving end of and had to change. And how do we turn that around without confrontation? But in a lot of instances, it's just compare putting a mirror up against the person who is expecting favors or whatever it is and saying, well, would you expect this? And then when it's actually set out, I had. There was someone and they were a solicitor and they wanted me to work and they wanted me to work for free for them. And it was quite a large project which may or may not have turned into something, but as it was, it would have been a large quantity of unpaid work for them. And I very calmly said, you know, what's your day rate? And he was like, what's not relevant? And I said it sort of is that that's how you value your, you know, your work. So why should you expect me to invest in a potential which I am not convinced or confident will result in lots of money? Because it's your idea, not mine. Yes. And do you think that, that people even have a greater expectation that female artists will do the work for free? Do you think they maybe target women with sort of non cash deals? Yes. In order to get a. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And also I think that they will expect some level of negotiation if it's a man. Whereas I think with a woman they're surprised when there is a little bit of pushback, a little bit of just some red pen on the contract and there. Whereas I think actually in America I think that's not the case. I think there's an expectation that if someone presents you with a contract, that's the first draft. Whereas in England if someone presents you with a contract and you have the audacity to say, well actually that's not quite what we agreed, it immediately becomes hostile or even, you know, we didn't discuss this and let me now use this as an opportunity to explain that so that we're all happy. Whereas I think it's. There is a slight expectation here that you just toe the line. I think you've just, I think you hit the nail on the head there. This idea of so we're all happy just throughout time. The idea that if somebody was going to be unhappy, that that was going to be the woman's job. Absolutely, somebody's gonna be dissatisfied. If someone was going to sacrifice that, that would be the woman. And so we can see this writ large when it comes to contracts. Writ large and lengthy when it comes to contracts. Exactly. Something very good I learned early on about contracts was I thought that when someone handed me a contract that it was already a 50, 50 kind of that it was partly in my favor, partly in their favor. And again it's this, I think a very female thing that we do of, you know, well, let me look after everybody. And so I thought that sort handed that people would be thinking that way. And then someone explained to me that a guy who's pretty much a billionaire now, he said no, every contract you receive, you've got to presume that it is completely, completely in the favor of the person who gave it to you. Yeah, I agree with that entirely. And not be so grateful that you've been handed a contract at all. Like, not be just like, oh, great, fantastic. I don't want to lose this deal, which is kind of sort of a way we go into with relationships too. Oh, I don't want to lose this guy. Let me. Let me adjust myself down, let me make myself smaller. Let me not speak up, let me not put red pen on this, because he might run away. I think it's something that we do right across the board, not just in contracts and creativity. Yeah, no, definitely. I was lucky enough when I was house sharing. We always seemed to have at least one trainee lawyer in just, just. I think there was one room and there was always, always a lawyer that was doing their first year's training. And it was amazing the influence they had or they happened to be girls, didn't really matter if they were or weren't, but it. The. What they used to bring home and the discussions we would have about the way legal processes work and everything, I think it gave us everyone else in the house is education in terms of just protecting yourself as a citizen. Generally, they wouldn't put up with any. If they bought something and it was broken, they would go back, they would cite acts, parliamentary acts, and I think having knowledge immediately, especially if you've got it at your fingertips in the middle of a discussion, you can say, I had a recent confrontational situation and actually there was. The way that the other party was responding was being very, very aggressive to the extent they actually breached the Harassment act by phoning me after 10 o' clock at night. Oh, nice. In the UK, people can't. So there are. You're protected as a citizen and withhold your details and those kind of things. So I think it's that thing of if you know your rights and your position on something, as long as you've got that information at your fingertips, you're in a much more powerful position and people won't take advantage. So you don't feel you have to claw back, you simply just stay. These are my parameters. There are so many people living in absolute fear because they don't know that they say, don't have to answer the door to a bailiff. Exactly. They don't have to answer the door to anybody. That. That is their safe space. And, you know, it would have to be some kind of. That they'd have to get some sort of legal warrant or something in order to do that. But so many people are just obedient. And again, I think this is something that is kind of like drummed into us as young women is we're supposed to be conscientious, we're supposed to be obedient. And I was like a ridiculously obedient child. And in fact my mother at one point said, this is, you know, I said, what were we like as kids? And she was, you were all very obedient. And I found that very sad because that obedience is something that I've been kind of pushing back against for the rest of my life. And I think it was. Was it Mason, Mason Cooley who said something like, I don't regret the folly of my youth, but its timidity. And I think that as women we are sort of regretting the timidity. Like all those times where I could have pushed back, I could have said, no, actually, that doesn't suit me, or no, I won't be doing that. And we didn't. Instead we just sort of took it because we were afraid we'd end up with nothing. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's a fascinating way of looking. Well, I think looking back on, I think I was quite a naughty child. I was the youngest, so I think that makes a difference. Was expelled from the brownies and all that kind of thing, but it was within a very safe space. And I think any. And my parents, being creative, I think they had a. Not disrespect for authority but certainly a lack of fear of it. So I think I was quite lucky in that sense. But I do think I also went to a very, very empowering girls school that had that stamp on, that's interesting to say, very, very empowering girls school. I went to an all girls school as well and didn't actually find it that empowering. The I suggested that ambition might be a good quality. The nun was writing up good qualities on the board and I said ambition. And she didn't write it on the blackboard. She wouldn't. She sort of acknowledged it, said, well, we'll need to have a discussion about that. And guess what? The discussion never happened. So ladies, let's have all our discussions here on women's radio station the voice of women Worldwide. Today on Judy May's Listening, we are talking with Rosie Brooks, all about creativity and how we can empower ourselves as women and look at things a little bit differently and do things a little bit differently, make more money, make a stand, make a noise, splash, paint around Be as awesome and gorgeous as we are. Women's Radio Station is a fresh new broadcasting platform driven by love and passion. Connecting women around the world in a global network is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education. 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Moreover, our sponsorship and advertising packages can be tailored to your needs, whether it be a product or brand service you're looking to promote. If you are interested in sponsoring or advertising, please contact me on 079-563-71483 or alternately zmomewomensradiostation.com. Welcome to Judy Mayer's Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen and together we transform everything. Welcome back to Judy Mae's Listening. This is Judy Mae Murphy here with Rosie Brooks. Today we are talking all about creativity, all about how it is that we can. We tend to play small as women and all the different ramifications of that. And so first, first of all, we've got to close a little loop here and find out exactly why were you kicked out of Brownies? Right, yeah. The story went though I was, I must have had some bubble gum or something like that. And I think I was just generally being disruptive. I thought the whole thing was quite silly. So I don't think I took it seriously enough. And we found out in the room, so there's a room of five women here right now. We found out that three people have been kicked out of something. One was kicked. Rosie obviously was kicked out of Brownies, and we have two more who were kicked out of ballet. And then myself and Melissa, our technical producer, were just angels. But that actually makes me quite sad that, you know, it's, kids should be getting mucky in every way, should be making mistakes, should feel free to make mistakes. And I remember just being full of anxiety around, am I going to make a mistake? And just being way too much of a people pleaser and wanting to always make sure that everyone was okay with everything that I was doing. And so in order to do my creativity, I had to take it up to my bedroom and that's where I could write and I could draw. And, you know, I was really into tracing. Isn't that a really hilarious thing to be into tracing? Like pictures from bird books when I was 11. But now obviously, you know, I have novels out as well as the self help book. So it's something that we can reclaim at any stage because there is something just beautifully rambunctious and messy and gorgeous about creativity. Yeah, yeah, no, completely, I agree. And going back to what you said about the beginning about the finance side of things, I don't think it necessarily has to make money in order to be valid. I think sort of creative success and personal success doesn't have to equate to, to financial success and working commercially as I have probably for like the last 12 years, it's taken me a long time to realize this. But it's not necessarily the projects you love the most that bring in the most money. And you don't know where the money is going to come from. It can come from any angle. You just have to have be confident to think that it will to a level that you expect, but it's not necessarily completely linked to how valid what you're doing is. And what would you say is the most fun thing that you've. Most enjoyable project that you've had in the last few years? It probably is the guitar that I painted for Paul McCartney because that was just such an amazing experience. Did you know at the time it was going to be for him? Well, it started off it was a project with Gibson Guitars and Teenage Cancer Trust and Nordoff Robbins, I think. And yeah, yeah, Prince's Trust and Nord of Robins and they were 10 foot statues of guitars that were going to be on the South Bank. And I remember a lot of people saying oh, it's a bit rock and roll. You know, your, your style is very children's booksy are including my mum and my then boyfriend. They were very like, oh, don't get disappointed Rosie. And I was like, well, we'll see. And you had to put in a proposal for what you wanted to do on this guitar. And I just wanted to draw like a crowd scene. Lots and lots of smiling faces and people and things. And Gibson got back to me, said yes, we definitely want to do it, but we, we can't tell you who it's going to be. And this went on for ages and ages and all the other artists got assigned a rock star. They knew who they were going to be working with. Who are some of those people? There was Rod Stewart, Paul Weller. I'm trying to think who else? Slash. They were all really good fun because we all ended up going out and having pizza together actually. It was great fun but they wouldn't tell who it was. And then eventually I got the call saying yeah, it's Paul McCartney, he's confirmed, it's all great. So I illustrated the guitar which was this huge statue outside City hall and then he came down and signed it and they did a big press thing and it auctioned off for charity for quite. I think it was $180,000 or something. A lot. And then I got another call from the office saying he wants another one and would you do a. Decorate an actual Les Paul like his, his guitar itself. And I'm still very good friends with a guy from Gibson actually out, out in Nashville and he got it sent over without any of the strings or I think the, the fingerboard was off it as well. So I illustrated it all and then they dipped it and varnished it and he's been playing it probably for about, I think, eight or nine years or something now. So it's really, really good. And it's really interesting to me that all of the big musicians that you mentioned, there are all men. And when we think about artists, you know, if I was to name a hundred artists, I would have to, you know, I'm a fan of art and, you know, we've been to exhibitions together and you know, I wouldn't call myself unknowledgeable in that arena at all, but even, even then I would be kind of doing that. Well, Frida Kahlo, Georgia o', Keeffe, I'd kind of be reaching. Whereas with the, with the men, I could just go and for, you know, an hour just mentioning names of even modern male artists. Exactly. And I think that's why a lot of. There were a lot of pen names around in literature that people weren't taken seriously unless they had a male. And in fact, the very first time I wrote a column, I wrote it with just my initials because it was a comedy column in the 1990s in Ireland and all of the comedians told me that, well, a, the comedians that didn't get good reviews would be annoyed and that was enough to scare me off. And also that it wouldn't be taken seriously because I was a woman and I caved to it. I just took it as well they know, and I wrote it under my initials. So of course people didn't get to know my branding, they didn't get to know me as a writer until later on I was working on different projects and, you know, under Judy Mae Murphy. So it is interesting how we can be persuaded to play small when we believe that it's not our arena, when we believe that this isn't our territory, that this is somehow male territory that we're trying to muscle in on rather than, hey, this is. This world belongs to everybody. We're not muscling in on anybody's. We're just taking our space that we have every right to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you found ever, you know, being an artist, particularly being a children's illustrator, have you ever found that you people are trying to edge you out of your space? It was interesting because illustration actually happens to be a very, very female dominated and book publishing is very, very female. But I think that sometimes it can be that women are the worst offenders in a funny way. And talking about working for free, the problem is often if you take a stand or something, there'll be someone that's prepared to Undercut you because they want to get ahead. And I also worked in broadcasting for a couple of years when I first graduated, and I think that the danger zone of any industry, when it's too far one percentage, it can create this strange bubble. And I think with illustration, with book publishing, it suffers from being too female. Wouldn't it be very interesting if we had like, at least a hashtag or maybe even some kind of app where if you are, you know, someone tries to buy a service from you as a woman and they're not pleased because you're charging the proper rate, then you can, you know, let the world know that you were. That that happened and so other women wouldn't come in and undercut. Do you think that that might be a thing that might sort of maybe shame people, shame companies into. I think it happens behind closed doors, so I think it's difficult to. It's one of those things that negotiations are all a bit anonymous, so it's harder to prove. And they would never say it's because of that. So we've just got to start to rely on women getting stronger and knowing their worth and not panicking around money. And for the commissioners to be trained into not taking advantage and thinking actually the content of anything is the most important, important part. So for books, magazines, whatever it is, without the content, there's nothing. So to assume that the people creating the content should get the smallest fee is insane. And when editors and all the other people are actually on decent salaries, that actually the freelancer in the middle of the thing is the one that's struggling is crazy, because without them there's nothing. Have you ever been in a situation where you're with other artists and most of them are male and you feel like you're being treated as the lesser? Yes. And I also think illustration is treated as lesser to fine art as well. So it's a double whammy in the sense that the applied arts are definitely considered the lighter end of the spectrum. That's interesting you say that, because I actually, I collect art and most of the art I collect is book illustrations from the 1940s onwards. Oh, lovely. Yeah. So I definitely wouldn't consider it the lesser art, as I choose it to buy every time. So. But again, with the same comparison I was making to as soon as a man comes along and it's him cooking spaghetti on a morning show, it's now fabulous. Do you think that all it will take will be a couple of men to really shine their star bright in the children's book Illustration world in order for it then to become. Well, it's interesting if you say that I'm not going to name who it is, but I remember meeting an agent once and they were talking about a pretty famous children's book illustrator and, and how well they've done in recent years and everything. And the agent said, and the, the day they walked into the. The publishing house, he's quite hot, put it that way. And he got a book deal just like that. If you think there's a load of hormonal women all in this, in this book publishing comes in with this portfolio and without really having to prove himself suddenly. Whereas, and she admitted, she said, I have to say if it was a 50 year old frumpy woman, they probably wouldn't have given, wouldn't have gone for it. They wouldn't have gone for it. That they were buying the whole package, no pun intended. Which, that's what I mean, that women are definitely as, you know, offending in the same and keeping this. Because if you think about illustrators, I mean again, the ones that we can name are people like Peter Blake, Edward Gorey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Quentin. Quentin Blake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Historically. So, yeah, it's interesting that as well. So I wonder. I know that on Twitter I follow a really great group of people who promote women's art. Yeah. But I'm just, I'm just wondering if it might be time for that with book illustrators. Yeah, definitely. Just in terms of conduct, I think the way that things are. The associated illustrators. Very good. And it creates, it advocates fairness across the board. It is not sort of trying to redress any balances. It just, just wants everything to be as fair on for the illustrator. So I think they would. I think that their existence helps enormously because it keeps a structure. I think that we do just have to, we do have to keep stating it. Yeah. You know what this radio show is all about? Cartoonists, I think are the worst. The political cartoonist is 90% men. Yeah. And they. My experience with them. I have a lot of fake friends that are political cartoonists. But there was one instance, I think it was Private Eye photograph and there were a couple of women in it and there were genuine comments. How did they get in there? And that was in the last couple of years. And they're not, they're joking, but they're not really joking. Yeah. I think in order for the, for the joke to occur to you, you have to have had the thought and it's just so easy. We call it guerrilla humor. We might as well learn what that is. If ever someone makes a statement and they claim to be only joking, but they that statement doesn't sit well with you. The whole point of humor is it sits well with everybody. People laugh. If you're not laughing or you're not finding it funny, don't laugh. Then it's just a veiled insult. It really is. It's designed a to keep you small or to curtail you or to train you in some way to stand back. And then it's also got this really great way of saying, and you're not allowed push back against this because it was just a joke. So much more coming up. Welcome to women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism and my guest today is Karen Noah. 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Moreover, our sponsorship and advertising packages can be tailored to your needs, whether it be a product or brand service you're looking to promote. If you are interested in sponsoring or advertising, please contact me on 079-563-71483 or alternately zmomensradiostation.com. And welcome back to the last 15 minutes of Judy Mae Is Listening. We're here live on WRS women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. We've been talking all about creativity and it's amazing how it has led to so many different aspects around boundaries and identity and branding and how you elevate yourself and how you value yourself and all these things that, that really affect us as women every single day of our lives. And I've had on the show today Rosie Brooks, artist and illustrator. And Rosie, what can women do if they feel like they've kind of shut down their creativity? Perhaps maybe as a defense mechanism against just life being tough? Yeah. I think the most important thing is pitch your moment when you want an audience. Because I think in a lot of of instances that the confidence at the beginning of a stage, people are very quick to say, here's a thing, here are my thoughts on it. Not necessarily negative, but they have to validate themselves by criticizing in some way. And if it's at a point when the bubble is so fragile that it means it bursts and you therefore don't return to the idea of whatever it is, music or illustration or art or something, then create something in, in a vacuum to start with before you feel ready to involve other people. Because I've definitely done things where I thought, I know I'll get a boost by showing it to people. And then they've come in quite negatively for whatever reason and sort of closed it down. And you needed to believe in the world of that. Exactly. Like what the 20th century theatre critic Christopher Fry said about People Weekly digging up an acorn and solemnly telling it that no matter what, what I may think, to the contrary, it is not an oak tree. You just have to let the thing grow, bloom, take root, find its way before you sort of announce it. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And work out when people are. I mean, in a lot of instances, I Get a hell of a lot of unsolicited advice and opinions and things, which is great because now I can separate out what's actually useful. Sometimes some things are incredibly useful. You should accuracies and things. But sometimes it is about people needing to offload their own personal journeys onto you. And things like jealousy and all sorts of other things can come into play quite quickly if they're not. If what you're doing doesn't align with exactly what they think should be occurring. And so many women do feel more sensitive because we are sort of more people pleasing. We do sort of feel that because we can't compete and fight back in that way. Instead we become more fawning, we become more interested in keeping people happy in order for us to stay safe. And if people, if we have people's disapproval, that, that can close us down quite quickly. So a thing that I always say, which is exactly what you're saying, is that, you know, really pre qualify people. So, you know, you say that there's, you know, certain people that you will take feedback from. So find out, first of all, why is it that I'm asking this person in particular, what is it? I'm looking for them, you know, to say, how do I like my feedback given? Some people are like, well, I just say it like it is. I just, you know, I'm really honest, I'm really straightforward. I'm like, please don't be honest and straightforward around me. Because you know what? I can't take it. I need two bits of lovely and a big hug. And then tell me what you think maybe isn't working. And I might need to look at. And I'll take it. I will hear it 100%. Or it might be when you finish a chapter, it might just be that if someone comes in and derails you halfway through doing something, it means you can't complete it. There we go. And then we don't even realize that that's happened. Instead we, you know, wrap another justification around it and we say something like, well, I'm just busy right now, or I'm more excited about this right now, or I don't have time because I have to do this other thing where I feel more successful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, it comes back to money of that thing of if it's not driving revenue instantly, it doesn't feel like it has a validity. But. And that means that you can always end up with working on what seems urgent rather than important. Yes. So in terms of. And I think that's Why? A lot of. I don't think it's a gender thing. I think lot of people generally can end up in jobs that plateau because they're scared to take the dip down in order to do the elevation financially, because of that risk factor. Because it means if you. If what you do doesn't bring in the money, then it will have been. It won't pay off. But then at the same time it means you can end up just. Just staying flat, I think. And that's it. Yeah, just that whole idea of getting closed down and not being willing to take risks. And do you think that women are more risk averse in general? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that's probably in the hardwiring and I don't think that's necessarily something that is to do with political progress. I think that's. It is literally. I mean, I think gambling, all sorts of things, it tends to be. Men tend to be the perpetrators of a lot of things where it's. I think, on the spectrum of that, I think that just is the way we're wired. Do you think that makes us less creative or does it mean that we aren't sort of at the vanguard of creativity? Is it that people who are bigger risk takers tend to be men? And that's why, you know, if you think about people like David Bowie or, you know, some of the great artists, that what they. What they did was they were taking big risks and therefore they were the first to do whatever because they weren't afraid of the ridicule, or at least they were willing to proceed in the face of ridicule. Whereas there's a thing I saw recently about David Bowie telling a story about seeing Mick Jagger on stage playing support to somebody else. The Rolling Stones were just very, very new and someone heckled him about his haircut and said, get a haircut. And he was just like, what? And be like you? But he could just take that. Do you think that the fact that we maybe need a little bit more support, that it makes us less likely to be on the vanguard, to be the ones that are taking the big chance? Because we do have amazing women who are taking big chances. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But I think it isn't. It isn't expected. And I think it's that thing of it, that and the semantics around women that aren't prepared to be placatory and things is often quite negative. It's sort of bossy, pushy, all those kind of things. And if you translate that to a man that's leader and you Know, assertive. Assertive rather than aggressive or anything. Actually. They're often too identical personality traits. But it's so you look at like, you know, Prince never got the same pushback that Madonna got, for example. And you know, why is that? I think. Do you imagine? I think. And also men don't have to take the clothes off on magazines and things. You know, that that expectation of part of the promotional machine is that. That that is part of our function as women, that we have to be able to do our thing plus be physically attractive or basically get semi naked on the front of it. And that's. And that's not got. That's gone backwards rather than forwards, I think. Right. So it's just. Yeah, be a great television presenter and have your body perfected. Exactly. Yes, yes. Gosh. And that is tiring, isn't it? And I think things like Instagram stuff have made that even worse. Definitely. For the younger generation. Actually, I was speaking about that to someone this morning. The fact that you've got 13 year olds who are being told that their, their value lies in how well they can do their makeup. I see teenagers today who are so groomed. I thought that part of being a teenager was getting your makeup wrong. Yeah. Not becoming better than a Hollywood makeup artist. Yeah. The goth phase and everything. And, you know, painting your eyebrows in wrong and your, you know, your foundation being completely different color to you and it being fun, actually a time to experiment and in the knowledge that it didn't have to be spot on. Yeah, yeah. It's rather a shame, I think now that there seems to be less enjoyment in that side of developing and it's because of Instagram, a lot of social media, it seems to be under such scrutiny, under high definition. So it's really important for us to be vigilant about when are they trying to sneak in this double expectation under our noses. Because sometimes if someone says to you, oh, will you just, you know, you hear about women who are asked to pose for a photograph and then it's like, oh, will you just. I remember actually it happened to me when I was. I was there. I was a novelist in 2000 and a major Irish newspaper. The photographer came around to my house, was taking a photograph of me and suddenly said, oh, actually, can we do one with you lying down? I was like, yeah, sure, that'd be interesting. Yeah. So I was lying down looking up at it and he said, can you just slip your. And wasn't even thinking because it was so subtle. And then suddenly it looks like I might Be naked? Yes. Suddenly it's sexualized. And I was there as like a literary novelist. There was nothing salacious in the novel at all. It was like highland, very famous fiction. But again, it's that expectation. And I think sometimes we need to just get clear on the fact that this is happening and to just do that. Like double think of. Would they ask a man to do this? Would they ask a man to take less money? Would they ask a man to slip his shirt off his shoulders? Would they ask a man to. Would they speak that way to a man? And to not be shy about letting it be known that that's not an okay way to speak to me. That's not something I'll be doing and calling it out, I think. I mean, again, going back to school, I was very lucky because I was all girls school. It was very progressive in the sense that they pushed science and maths and there was no reason why they would try to get everyone into Oxford and Cambridge in places. And it was often there is nothing a man could do that you can't do. Everything is on the table for you here. Don't think. But then you go out into a world where the thinking isn't that. And it must be a little bit confusing. Hold on a second. I thought I was supposed to be equal here. Hold on, on a second. I thought I was supposed to be. I thought nothing was supposed to be barred to me. And suddenly you're seeing these visible and invisible barriers everywhere, but you're armed with this kind of power thing of being like, no, I can do that, why can't I do it? There's no reason why, if you can do it, I can do it sort of thing. And I went to Durham afterwards, which was probably more regressive in the sense it was much, much more traditional. And I think a lot of the other female freshers had come from quite traditional backgrounds and they were much more subservient. I found that quite interesting that I think maybe it was probably partly London, but it was also that sense of very, very strong head teacher just being like, you can do anything. And we've taught about important women in history then before now it's quite common, but then it was quite unusual to focus in on. And I think that the more women see other women stepping up, speaking out, we're learning that new language of presenting ourselves and of. Of saying no, this doesn't work without feeling like we're being ridiculously ineloquent or we're going to be called out for being. You can still empathize and be strong. We don't have to rage, but if needs be, we will. Because if that's what it takes, that's what we're going to do. Just in the last minute here, how can we find you? I'm a big fan of the opera books. Where can we. Oh, fantastic. Thank you. Well, it's all on my website, so www.and then there's a page called My Little Opera, so you can buy the books on my website. Absolutely. Wonderful. Thank you so much for being my. Thank you very much. And thank you also to Rhea and to Maggie for at the very last minute writing in their comments and concerns about creativity, being creative as a woman. As always, I'm Judy Mae Murphy and I'm here and I'm listening to you. So please get in contact and let me know everything that's important to you. Because if it's important to you, it's important to all of us. And together we're going to make it so here on WRS women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. I will see you live next Monday at noon. Women's radio station is a fresh new broadcasting platform driven by love and passion, connecting women around the world in a global network. 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