Judymay Is Listening LIVE SHOW – Speak Up! Shout Out! Get Loud! With Mary Keane – Dawson

Welcome to Judy Mayer's Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen and together we transform everything. Welcome, everybody, to Judy May is listening here on WRS women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. Today we're going to be listening to what it is that you have to say about speaking up. So we're listening about speaking, and then we're going to be speaking about speaking. And I have the most extraordinary guest in studio with me today who I'm going to be introducing to you in a little while. But first of all, let's just have a little think about how it is as women that we speak differently. First of all, we've got the physical side of it, the fact that our voices tend to be higher, particularly when we're younger. Also that they tend to be softer. I'm very softly spoken. Some women are less softly spoken. Some women feel like they can hardly speak at all. I remember when I was in high school, there was a girl called Grace in our class, and she spoke in a whisper all the time, like she was asked to speak up by the teachers. And she couldn't ever or didn't ever raise her voice above a literal whisper. And I remember years later just thinking about her and being so concerned what must have been happening in that poor girl's life that she felt that she had no voice, that she literally had no right to a voice, that when she was speaking, it had to be in the least emphatic or the least intrusive way possible. What is it about that? And I've gotten a lot of statements and questions from you. And this does seem to be a theme, this idea of somehow it's not as okay for me to speak, it's not as okay for me to speak up and be loud as it is for other people. And for some of you, that is it's not okay to speak up because that would make you less feminine. And for others, it's just something wrong with you, an idea of there's something intrinsically wrong with you that you haven't earned the right to speak. And we're going to be meeting Mary Keene Dawson, and those of you who work in the advertising industry already are super excited because you know exactly who that is. She is somebody who here in the UK has been absolutely rocking it out for the last couple of decades, massively successful woman and someone who I've met very recently. And that's the thing I really, really admire about her, is that she just has A voice, and she uses it and she doesn't back off from that. So we're going to be getting her wisdom on board very, very soon. First of all, let's start with a letter that we got in from Evelyn in Manchester. So this has been edited down a little bit, but basically that the essence of it is she says every time to speak up in a group, someone interrupts me and I feel like an idiot. It makes me not bother. Evelyn, what if I let you know that it was designed to make you not bother? This idea that, you know, somehow people are just doing things accidentally and aren't being aggressive or aren't being manipulative. Very often you'll find that most people do know what they're doing. They are interrupting you for a reason. And so we've got to let go of this sort of quite naive idea that, you know, Evan, I'm not calling you specifically naive, but we do have this naive idea often when we are generous hearted and we're very conscientious. We feel that people have the best intentions and that people have your. Your best at heart. And that's not always the case. The idea that perhaps they do want to silence you because what it is that you're saying is somehow threatening to them or what it is that you have to say doesn't su them, or perhaps that they want to take credit for whatever it is that you're communicating. And so I would say, first of all, realize that if it's designed to. That if it's designed to make you not bother, do you really want to give them that win? Or perhaps do you want to get a win for yourself? This is something that we'll be discussing with Mary. The way that we can speak in groups, the way that we can make ourselves heard. The thing that really struck me about your entire letter, the one phrase was, someone interrupts me and I feel like an idiot. How often do we do that? There's this unclaimed shame kind of floating around in the universe. Somebody has acted in an unboundaried, unacceptable way and they're not feeling shame about it. They're not feeling good, healthy human shame, not toxic shame. We don't want them to feel that. But they're not just feeling the natural everyday shame that should go along with shameful behavior, not good, not okay behavior. And so what happens if this bad feeling is just kind of there and no one's owning it and no one's making it okay? As women, we tend to rush in there and be the ones to make it okay. And so we get to feel like an idiot, or someone is there, they're really drunk and they're singing and making all these lewd comments. And we're the ones that end up feeling embarrassed. So realize that it's not yours to feel that way. It's theirs. You're not the idiot. You've been behaving. Well, you've been behaving in a very acceptable way. You've been saying things. And it's your job in that moment to say things. Or even if it's not your job, it's your right in that moment to say things, to communicate, to be there on an equal level. So the first step is, anytime somebody interrupts, you realize that that's theirs to feel badly about, not yours. It's not an indication that somehow you were being boring or you weren't fast enough, or you shouldn't have presumed that you could have platform and just say, right, that's on them. But also then that allows you the space to not permit that to happen. To not sort of say, well, what was I doing wrong? And to shrink back, but to actually move forward and step into it. So I'd like you now to meet Mary. Mary is just extraordinary. A really, really successful entrepreneur, a woman who's, as I say, very well known in the advertising industry, and someone who is also all about women moving forward and taking their space. So, Mary, how would you feel about Evelyn if you. If you were to meet her and. And she says to you, I just keep getting interrupted. Does that happen to you? Do you find yourself getting interrupted when you're speaking? Well, yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's. But it's interesting when you said about my legendary and inverted commas status in advertising, because obviously, you know, that's just part of my life. It's not, you know, it's not who I am in the sense that. How I. I'm a, you know, my mother, I'm a daughter, I'm a sister, I'm a friend, you know. And I think that. To your point about Evelyn's story, I can completely identify with that. Because certainly I think for younger women in particular, but not all younger women for women in general, who have not found it within themselves that the confidence that they have a right to speak and that what they've got to say is of value and they can make a real contribution. It is interesting how you can be dismissed, particularly, I mean, in my instance, it would be by people who don't know me, because it has happened to me on a number of occasions, and it still does, you know. And when it happens, I kind of look at people and say, hey, you know, I've got something I want to say here. So if you have a problem with that, then maybe the conversation can't really continue. And you'd be surprised at how that can disarm people quite quickly. I'm okay with that because for me, it's like, you know, I don't need to have that sort of approval for the sake of being kind of, like, nice and not being a, you know, kind of. I don't care if people think that I'm some sort of, you know, strong person. For me, it's just who I am, and I'm comfortable with that. And have you always been that way, or is that something that developed over time? I think I became that way probably when in my teens, I had a difficult few years in my family, went through a very dysfunctional period. And during that time, I really had to find my own voice. And in the process of doing that, you know, I realized that if I didn't speak up or I didn't speak out or I didn't actually feel comfortable and confident about what I was saying, that you, you know, a lot of bad things could happen to me, and I think that you wouldn't survive. Probably, potentially. I wouldn't survive. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, my parents split up, and in the process of that, I like, you know, I landed up being on my, you know, not on my own, but having to find my own home and somewhere to live at the age of 15. And that was extremely. I mean, at the time, I didn't realize just quite what a challenge that was going to be. But it was a challenge and one that, you know, I fortunately did manage to, you know, to overcome. But with the help of my best friend and with other, you know, older people who were. Who were around, who cared enough and wanted to help, but that. That could have gone a very different way. I think the fact is that because I knew what I needed to achieve and how to, you know, I was learning on the job, so to speak, but. But it was a job of life. And I've felt ever since that, you know, it's really important for people to support one another, particularly in challenging times. And we're certainly living through challenging times right now. And speaking of challenging times, when you started out in the newspaper industry, at that time, it was a very, very tough place. I mean, it was not a kind place. It was cutthroat Highly misogynistic, if that's fair to say, and you had to make your way there, that must have been its own kind of workout. It was extraordinarily competitive and do not underestimate the misogyny that we had to encounter and to deal with. I think one of the biggest challenges was that the behavior of men in the industry, you know, the sexual harassment and so on and so forth, was completely and utterly accepted. And if you were somebody who did actually turn around and go, no, thank you, I am not interested. It was kind of considered to be really shocking. But if you were really good at your job, it was extremely difficult for them to do anything about. And I think also because of the advancement in technology, I was in a very interesting place at an interesting time when technology started to explode in the industry and that meant that the barriers to entry and the cost of actual business was much, much lower, was becoming lower. So that meant that if you had a lot of talent, then that could be, you know, captured and taken forward. So, yeah. And did you see at that time some women who, because they were sort of younger and maybe had led more sheltered lives that they didn't actually survive that environment and had to go and do something else? I think there was quite a lot of that and in fact, several friends of mine, you know, develop things like eating disorders and, you know, alcohol problems because of the pressures that they were under. So, yeah, it was a, it was a fraught time and there were, there were people who were damaged by that and in those days we did not have the kind of structures we have now. Thankfully, today there's a lot more help out there. Absolutely. And let's come back after the break and we'll talk some more about speaking up and how we can claim our space through that here on wrs. The voice of women worldwide. Welcome to women's Radio station, the voice of women worldwide. 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Hi, I'm Zena Moscone, head of Business development at women's radio station Radio Advertising is the most cost effective way to reaching a huge audience globally. Moreover, our sponsorship and advertising packages can be tailored to your needs, whether it be a product or brand service you're looking to promote. If you are interested in sponsoring or advertising, please contact me on 07-956-37-1483 or alternately zmomeomensradiostation.com. Welcome back to Judy May is listening here on WRS Women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. And our guest today is Mary Keene Dawson who is speaking about speaking up and we're answering your questions and looking at your concerns about having a voice and going vocal. And just before the break, Mary, you were talking about just how some women didn't manage to navigate that environment at that time terribly successfully. Do you think that that is still happening to women today? What was it that was going undoubtedly happening today? I think unfortunately I wish it wasn't because we know, we hope that all young women know now when they're in a meeting and someone claims an idea that was theirs that they know to turn around and say that's exactly what I said two minutes ago. Or that they know how to say something like, please don't interrupt me, I hadn't finished, or just don't interrupt me again. And do you believe that women are actually making those statements or that other people are starting to understand that interrupting and talking over and intimidating someone and putting them down isn't the way to go? Well, I absolutely think that there is a very strong movement within organizations and within businesses that is wanting to see that change taking place. But I don't think you can ever underestimate the kind of insecurity of leadership in a lot of instances. And that fundamentally, you know, it's all about the bottom line, right? So, you know, you may have very, very, you know, today you may have very kind of open minded and good intent to make your business much more diverse and to have far more kind of open conversations about the, you know, whose credit, you know, the team should get credit or individuals should get credit where it's due. But there is this kind of hierarchical structure that we still have in a lot of organizations and it's top dog will win the day. And that kind of super competitiveness breeds an awful lot of this incredibly, you know, aggressive behaviors. And you know, lots of the time in, in certainly in the 80s when I first got into business, there was this kind of view that, you know, if you were good at sports and you understood that, you know, the, the ground rules of how a rugby match worked or how, you know, I was a hockey player and a tenant and a netball player. So I mean, you know, that was the whole idea. Business was a game of sport and it was, you know, all about competing and the best competitor. But it actually, if, you know, I think that is a very archaic way of looking at how an organization needs to develop. And I think what we're seeing now and more power to it is with the kind of much more gig economy type of approach and portfolio, career, etc. People have a lot more, you know, opportunity to choose how they work and so on and so forth. But if you are working in an environment where there are teams and you are, you know, brainstorming an idea and you come up with a great idea and somebody else then steals it, then from my point of view, I think I want to know that, you know, that idea, you called it out, you know, and I encourage women to speak out, even if that means that they, you know, the person that they call out might develop more problems for them because a lot of women will be quiet just for an easy life and will think, well, if I call them out on that, the chances are that they will make something up about me or complain about this mistake that I made. It'll be easier for me to keep quiet. I think it's really important in those circumstances to be open with your colleagues about what's going on. So to make sure it doesn't become a he said, she said to just get in there and make sure that there are witnesses, that there's kind of a group think around it and you can say to people, you know, and I also really encourage people in modern businesses where you have regular catches, you know, catch ups with your boss or whatever, just say, look, I don't want to make a big deal out of this, but I was in a meeting the other day with Jack, Joe or Jill or whoever it was who, you know, stole your idea and passed it off as their own. And, you know, they did that thing and it kind of like seemed a bit odd. Right. And you know, so I just want to put it on your radar. You know, that's kind of a subtle, nice way of doing it. It is. And very often when we don't, when we haven't done that and we haven't heard it modeled for us, having the ability to say something like, look, it's not a big deal, I just want to put it on your radar. It doesn't occur to us to do in that way. We think it has to be something sort of very formal, very provable. You don't need to do that. You just need to make sure that you are, you know, you're looking after yourself and you're looking after your colleagues. It's not, you know, it's not rocket science. And also because. Sorry, sorry, I don't want to cut across you, but I think it's a really important principle here and that is that, you know, bosses aren't looking at you all day, every day. They have got the business to run, or they've got the clients to see, or they've got the, you know, they've got to do whatever they need to. They've got the day job, right? And management of the team and development of the individual is obviously part of the remit. But it, you know, increasingly becomes less and less time that, you know that they have to do that. So you kind of have to give it to them, you know, you have to kind of let them know what's going on in, in your world. And that's cool because the next time that they come up against Jack Jill or Joe or whoever it was stole your idea. They can kind of say, you know what? Just make sure you're recognizing the people in your team and your peers and what you're doing for you, because nobody likes to have their ideas stolen. And that's just good leadership. And that's presuming that you do have good leadership and also presuming that you do have the good intent for people to want to develop sometimes. Is it the case, though, that women are being told that they'll be listened to, told that they'll be given platform, told that they'll be validated? Whereas, in fact, that's just being said out of fear of litigation? I would say it's more likely to be said because we want to have, you know, a lot of companies like to kind of pretend. Pretend. They like to appear as kind of hashtag diversity. You know, like, everybody's welcome here, and we just want the creme de la creme and the best people working our company and. And so on. And so. And if you're a woman, you'll have, you know, and. And don't get me wrong, I think a lot of modern businesses are absolutely making huge headway in that. That regard. However, as long as you have maybe one or two women on the board, and the rest of it is, you know, like, the guys still playing golf together or still going, you know, on the sales conferences together and not really kind of actually, and. Or everybody went to school together. I've been in the company, which is like that. How do you handle that? How do you handle it if you can't actually be in the room where the real conversations are happening? Well, I mean, you have to get there. It's really important. I mean, I was in a. I was in a. Giving a talk not that long ago, and a very charming young black lady stood up and said, how can I get to where you are today? And I said, go to your boss and tell them you want their job and what do you need to do to get their job? And I said, do it, you know, because unless you ask, you don't get. And I'm really sorry. That's a very obvious thing to say. But part of this whole piece around women being listened to and being heard is also how we are actually engaging with, you know, bosses, teams, clients, you know, whatever business you happen to be in. I think that it is that kind of engagement piece that is really the biggest challenge for not just women, but for a lot of people out there who perhaps have not had, you know, the Encouragement and the support that unquestionably, you know, organizations like Women's Radio Station are now doing, because certainly in my youth, there was a real. Yet apart from your very closest girlfriends and maybe some of your very closest boyfriends, you know, there wasn't that kind of encouragement to speak out. And I mean, you know, I'm not. I'm not afraid to talk about this, but it's important to recognize my. In myself that, you know, I was incredibly angry and incredibly determined to succeed. Okay? And in that. In that regard, I. You know, I had. I was a single mother, and I needed to be able to make this work. And I was not going to be written off by anybody, you know, because I come from an Irish Catholic family, and lots of people thought what I was doing was crazy. You know, you had a kid, you had, you know, you just left university. What are you thinking? And. Yeah, what was I thinking? I mean, I've never regretted. It is the most important thing that happened in my life. But it meant that I was very, very motivated to make a success of myself. And, you know, in that process, I probably did, you know, listen enough to other people. I probably did, you know, kind of jump over the fence and run, you know, the million miles on my own. I probably did think that I had, you know, I was better than anybody else. I mean, you know, I probably wasn't very nice. And, you know, I realized I got to a point in my career, I just did not like what I was doing and what I was being asked to do and what was expected of me. And at that moment, I had, you know, I had a revelation and realized that it was time for me to be my real self. And it seems to be that that is a dilemma that a lot of women have. It seems to be a sort of very binary choice between being heard and being liked. Yeah, there is a real problem there. And is, you know, is. Is there a third path? Yeah, there is. There's be yourself path. I mean, you know, and that requires a lot of work. You know, I mean, I think certainly even though I talked about just there, about how, you know, I did things, that probably in hindsight, I wasn't happy. I mean, you know, I look back on and I think, God, Mary, you know, like, I also hated it when people didn't like me, you know, and I would go home and cry, you know, and I'd be really upset because, you know, I was this woman in charge of all these people. And you would get people coming up to you and saying, you know, like, you're so different. You're not like the other bosses and so on and so forth. But then you'd realize, you know, you might have to have a very, very difficult conversation with that person about their targets, about their performance, whatever it might be. And they'd look at you in this kind of like, oh, my God, rabbit caught in headlights type of way and think to themselves, you know, but that's not. You're nice. You're the nice one, you know, and you'd be like, no, I'm not being nasty. I'm just being honest with you about where we are, okay? And this binary, you know, like black and whiteness about being a good boss and a bad boss, right. You actually have to be a constructive leader, and that's really important. And the lesson that I want other women to understand and learn as they move forward, both how to be that and then also how to receive that from somebody else. Because very often we can get good at saying the thing, but then having to listen when it starts to come back as feedback, that's a challenge that we have. So what we'll do is coming back after the break, we will talk about things like feedback and leadership. And of course, we'll have more of your statements and questions right after this on wrs. The voice of women worldwide women's radio station is a fresh new broadcasting platform driven by love and passion. Connecting women around the world in a global network is all about the diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education. We aim to show the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and a platform for your voice. Women, the possibilities are endless. 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If you are interested in sponsoring or advertising, please contact me on 079-563-71483 or alternately zmomensradiostation.com. Welcome to Judy Mayer's Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen and together we transform every. So, Claire, in Chester, you wrote into us with something that I believe Mary has already started to answer. You've said, I started speaking up, but then got feedback from my boss that everyone thought I was pushy. So now I don't know whether to speak up or to stay quiet. And it's that like we were just speaking to. It almost feels that as a woman you can't win, that you will not be given the benefit of the doubt that you will be defined. I mean, yes, I completely hear where you're coming from, but what I would say to Claire is, Claire, when your boss defined you as, you know, everyone thinks you're being pushy, did you drill down into that? Because I think it's important to understand what it was or what it is that your boss and your peers were kind of finding uncomfortable about you suddenly speaking out. And it could actually have just been that you were suddenly speaking out. You know, I think that, you know, it's good to talk to your friends about how do I get heard, but it's also important to speak to your peers about how do I get heard? You Know, we're all in this together. Right. Ultimately, we all want the business to succeed. We want to have a good time at work. Nobody wants to go into a job that they hate or that they dread. They. And I think that, you know, most of us recognize that, and essentially, I think the vast majority of people, to your point about how people do steal ideas and they do act in very strange ways in highly competitive environments, but fundamentally, I think most people are essentially good and they don't want to see people unhappy around them. Right. I mean, obviously there are some odd people out there who don't care about that stuff, but they tend to be people I don't want to work with. And, you know, I don't know how old Claire is, but I really encourage you, Claire, to please try and talk to your boss about. Revisit that and just sort of say, look, what does pushy mean? That is so wonderful. Because very often we don't question the feedback. Yeah. We'll just accept it. And we'll either choose to reject it and just go on our merry way, or we'll choose to take it on board, decide that it's more evidence that we are somehow broken and that we need to somehow magically be different other than that which we naturally are. And so this, yeah, this is really important, the idea of questioning it, questioning exactly what it is, going back when we're not clear, asking for more. And then that obviously shows people that you are willing to grow, that you're not saying, no, you're wrong, I'm perfect. And at the same time, you're not just taking it on board, because I know for years I just did that if somebody made a statement about me that then became the truth with a capital T, and I would just run with that and often completely leave whole professions or even countries sometimes, that the shame would just be so overwhelming that I would feel like I didn't have the ability to. What I thought I had to fight back. But what you're saying there is, you don't have to fight back. You just gotta ask some questions. I mean, you know, you can do what I did. Nowadays, I'm not sure that. I'm not sure that you'd be allowed to. Well, I mean, I had a few incidents when, you know, guys were very rude to me in public. And I just told them straight, you know, you've chosen the wrong person. Because if you think that I'm going to take that, I'm afraid you're wrong. And I will go to the highest person in this company and you will be told. But then I think that was because I was in a situation where I knew I was in a business that. Where there was a lot of metrics, right. And they were very. It was at the time when, you know, your personal performance was an excru. Going back to this sporting analogy of how businesses were run. It was, you know, people did a lot about talking about team, but actually they were really, you know, it was a lot about the top hitters. Yeah, it was always about the big hitters, the big ticket, what they used to. To call the big ticket salespeople. And I mean, you know, I had my first managing director's job when I was 28 years old. So, you know, it was kind of like I was on a bit of a. I, you know, was on this kind of really high trajectory. And that's why I go back to this thing about how looking back, you know, some that I knew I had to work on myself because I didn't want to be one of those people. And I think one of the things I also experienced in my career and have experienced in my career is working with women who have become and adopted very, very negative and aggressive behaviors. And that can be extraordinarily intimidating for women. And it's also very, very, very destructive, in my opinion. And I imagine when women see other women behaving like that, the first question is, gosh, do I have to become. That's exactly right. Which actually speaks to something that. We have a question in from AB in London who said, I went to an event, a self help event, I understand, where they talked a lot about women being more feminine in order to be attracted to masculine men. I've been single for years, so I've started doing what was said and following the advice. Part of it was that I should let the man lead the conversation. Do you agree with that advice? I actually have, you know, my job is motivational speaker. And I have been around a lot of those environments where women are told that what makes them attractive, what makes their lives viable, is if they are better listeners, if they smile more, we know we're back to that smile love stuff. Also, if they are, you know, more sort of flowing and allow the man to lead and don't be so in charge. And I actually believed all that because I was back in that place of if someone is saying it and I'm not certain they must be right. And I could, I could see sort of some truth in it. Okay, yes, people are more attractive when they smile. So I take all These little bits of truths and decide that the whole thing added up and needed to be followed. And I spent about three years in the early 2000s, while I was still progressing with my career, being very, very passive and allowing anybody to just step in. And if I considered them to be more masculine, I would just hand over my power on a plate. I would just. If they wanted to speak at a different time during a gig, if I had a good speaking slot, maybe just after lunch and they wanted it, I'd just be like, oh, okay, yes, absolutely. Let me show you how lovely I am. And really did a lot of damage to myself by following this advice. So what I would say is, to every woman, you are the expert on you first. Don't hand that over to anybody, not me or anybody, not even people from hundreds of years ago that you read about. You're the expert on you. And it makes me very angry when we feel that the first thing we have to do is fundamentally change who we are. That really sort of makes me mad. But what would you say around this whole idea of that somehow she should allow a man to lead the conversation because otherwise she's not being feminine and therefore isn't attractive and therefore, in her mind, won't end up happily with someone? Well, I'd probably say something along the lines of, well, no, I am going to say it. That, you know, there are lots of people out there trying to sell you solutions that are not necessarily based in any kind of what's in the best. What's. What's best for you. That's the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is that, you know, are men so, you know, like, so delicate and fragile that, you know, they can't have a woman's opinion put on the table or in a conversation and kind of deal with it? I mean, do you want a man like that? Do you want a man like that in your life? Okay, I think that's. That's a really important question. Or do you want a person like that in your life? Because, I mean, you know, depending on, you know, what your search, you know, whatever your sexual preference is, or whether you're, you know, just having friends who, like, shout you down or don't want to talk about anything except themselves. And, I mean, we've all been there, right? We've all been there where, you know, well, I really like this person, and I don't want to hurt their feelings or, you know, or I want them to like me. You know, I need to be liked, and this need to be liked. Okay? This kind of level of consciousness that we have about that as. And it is a very, very strong female in my experience and my own experience of, you know, myself. And to your point about know thyself, you need, you need to know thyself, you also, I think it's important to talk to other people about, you know, how you get some feedback about how you're behaving because you might be surprised if you talk to the guy in the real world, not in the conference circuit when someone's trying to sell you a, you know, a coaching program or whatever. The reality is that, you know, get some feedback from people who you like and care about and care about you. And I mean, you know, sometimes you need to go to a counselor, but that's, you know, or you need to go on a coaching program, but choose that based on what you've had a discussion with people who care about you and you care and love too, because you'll get the best feedback and the best advice from those people. Don't be afraid to ask for help. You know, for years I never told I was like the most closed down, self contained person. I never spoke about my personal life. I never shared anything. I would be there for people. I'd be like a big sponge, you know, like, it'd be, tell me all your problems. Of course, you know, I want to help you. But when people then said to me, what about you, Mary? You know, I'd be like, oh, no, everything's fine, you know, and the reality is that I missed out on a huge amount of personal growth because I didn't ask the question. And we don't tend to do that, do we? We don't tend to look for feedback at a time when. Before it becomes crisis because very often we get feedback when we're in crisis mode and we just don't really know where is it that we can go from here. And that can land up and lead to an awful lot of incredible, awful, tragic stuff, you know, because that's. I would even argue that some of that lack of, you know, communication and feedback and engagement can lead to depression, you know, can lead to negative negativity about yourself and it can make you, you know, it can also mean I'm inadequate, I'm not good enough. Because if I was actually able to have a conversation with a guy and let him lead, then I'd have a boyfriend or whatever. I think it's a lot more complicated than that. And it's an awful lot more important then, you know, having A rounded life is much more important than having just one that's dedicated to the pursuit of one thing. Absolutely. And just knowing that we are going to not just survive this, but we are going to thrive in it as well. So today you are listening to Judy Mae's Listening. I'm Judy Mae Murphy and with me here in studio is Mary Keene Dawson and we're talking about the importance of speaking up. So what we'd like for you to do is start to let us know what is your experience of this show? How would you like for us to move forward? What are the topics that you'd like us to deal with? Is there anything that you would need to know? So do speak up. Let's start this in motion. Welcome to women's radio Station, the voice of women worldwide. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Judy Mae is Listening. Hello, this is Anna Kennedy at Women's Radio Station Live, voice of women worldwide talking about all things autism women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. 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If you are interested in sponsoring or advertising, please contact me on 07-956-37-1483 or alternately zmomensradiostation.com. And welcome back to Judy Mae is Listening. This is Judy Mae Murphy. And with me in studio today, I have, I'm going to call her that again, the legendary Mary Kean Dawson. We're so privileged to have her with us today talking all about women speaking up and being heard. And we were just making the point during the break that we realize it's not equal for all women, that if you are a woman who's middle class or upper class, if you are a woman who's white, if you are educated, it's easier for you to be heard, it's easier for you to find a platform to speak, and it's easier for you to then get the attention when you do speak. Also, if you maybe have more power within an organization, as you were saying, if you're one of the top hitters, that makes it easier. How can we support other women who maybe don't have as much of a voice as we do? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really, really important, important question and one that I would like to encourage all women to, you know, please get involved, even if it is only at the level of your friends and, you know, your mum and whoever. But it's really important to talk, you know, and to engage and to ask people how they're doing and how they're getting on. I mean, you know, I try to mentor people, people if I can. And I also support Young Women's Trust, which is a fantastic organization. Tell us about that. In the uk. And they basically are taking initiatives and designing initiatives that help people from maybe, you know, less affluent backgrounds and of all ethnic backgrounds to, you know, basically design a cv, you know, get involved in social media, building their own personal brand, the kind of exposing them to, you know, the idea of assertiveness, you know, training and so on and so forth and asking for feedback and being Able to cope, you know, in quite complex and sophisticated organizations where. And also to gain self confidence. Because I think one of the things that's interesting about my story, which I reflect on, is that I was born into an Irish Catholic family and my grandparents were incredibly proud of me. And from the moment I was born, I was told by them, particularly my grandmother, you can be anything, you can go anywhere, you can do anything. And, you know, she came from a generation of Irish women that had been basically owned by their husbands. And that was legal. You know, that was a legal. Their legal status in Ireland and even in the uk, I think, was that they had no rights, you know, because it was the husband that would always be, you know, he had the money, he had the, you know, he had the rights. And my grandmother, who was a very smart lady, she wanted me to have a different experience of the world and of life and very much encouraged me to, you know, study and to get, you know, do well at school and so on and so forth. But also she imbued me with this sense of self confidence. And when I was a child, I lived in Wales for quite a few formative years, and I developed a very strong Welsh accent, which I can put on for you if you'd like. And I loved Wales and I loved the Welsh as well. But she wanted me to learn how to speak so I could speak in public. And she paid of her own quite. You know, she wasn't a rich woman. Her own pocket for me to go to elocution lessons. And I've always felt incredibly blessed that I had that at a very early age in my life because it meant that I was always a relatively comfortable public speaker, and also because I was exposed to poetry and expression and how you actually interpret things, that gave me a lot of confidence with the written word. And do you think that there are some women who aren't speaking out simply because they feel that they're not as eloquent as other women? Correct. I really believe that. And this is why whenever I see online someone being called out for using a colloquial phrase or an urban phrase, I will jump right back in and I'll defend the use of that phrase because it's like saying, no, that is valid. That is her way of communicating it. She doesn't need to speak completely in your language in order to be understood. No, absolutely. But I think the thing is, it's also there is a need for us to celebrate that difference. And I think when you listen to poetry from. And in especially poetry, that's written in the colloquial style or in an urban style or whatever, you, if you actually listen to the words and you actually listen to the message and it really does expose you to different kind of understanding and it's actually very enjoyable as well. And I think we, you know, when we talk about being heard. Okay. One of the things that I also say to people about, because they often ask me about, you know, self confidence in public speaking and stuff like that, listen up because, you know, through listening and exploring, you know, the meaning of words and the mean and the messages around poetry and stories, for example, I think we learn so much about how we can express ourselves. It is really important to be able to, you know, feel comfortable about, you know, with your own language and with the way that you are and the way that you speak. And I encourage, you know, again, you know, if there's a choir in your area and you like singing or whatever, I encourage you to go and sing because that's a really great way to build self confidence. You know, we don't all have to go and run a 10 minute mile or whatever it might be, you know, to be like the most to regain confidence or to build on our confidence. We're not doing that right after the show then, Mary? No, we're not doing a few. No, we're not. I'm going straight to lunch. What you were saying there about, you know, listening to other ways of speaking, this is what I love about reading women. Throughout history, some female authors never got known in their lifetime times simply because they weren't published or because they weren't celebrated. They weren't in the right society to be celebrated. And people, not just historians, but librarians, who I always celebrate, are finding these amazing works that were buried, works by women that are very important. My favorite Japanese poet, Koneko, she actually sadly committed suicide. She didn't fit into her society. She was a single mother. She found life very hard. But her poetry is now being translated worldwide and people are really learning from it. And so we just need to remember that, as you say, listening is very, very important as women to listen to other women so that we can grow ourselves and also so that we can understand that we too are being listened to. So when we listen, we have this idea of, well, if I'm listening to this person who thinks there's no one there, maybe there, there is someone listening to me after all. Yeah, I think also by listening, by being mindful and listening in a mindful way, it actually gives you an awful lot more confidence when you speak up, and it's a lot. It's a lot easier to say, hey, guys, you know, I just listened to you guys for the last 10 minutes now. You know, give me a break. Give me a bit of space here. And I think people get it, right? They get it. It's about, you know, often, you know, when we feel that we're being oppressed, okay. It's us that feel that it's not necessarily the intention of the oppressor, if you see what I'm saying. There's just thoughtlessness. And at least we can find out whether it is intentionally. Right? But by being, I think, reminding ourselves to be mindful when we're in a group situation. You know, whether it's work or whether it's, you know, in the pub we're having a few drinks, or it's at your book club, or it's at your, you know, tea around your mum's or whatever it might be. I think it's important to really, you know, to kind of, if you like, just engage in that sort of mindful way. And by doing so, in so doing, you actually also give to your power, if that's the right word, to be able to say, well, you know, let's all be respectful here. You know, something that you just said there about, well, guys, I've been listening to you for a while and now I'd like to say this. Have you noticed that for a lot of women what we do is we give somebody else sort of half an hour and then we almost apologize for taking two minutes to put our bid in. Yeah. And I mean, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I have not gone through my life saying sorry, sorry, but, sorry, but, you know, sorry, but I've got. It's a really, really kind of like female thing. And I can remember once being in the board meeting at some very big company that I was either running or sitting on the board of, and someone says, why do you always start off your. Your sentences with sorry? And it. And it really became like a kind of like bugbear with me that I still was apologizing. It was just. And it was automatic. It was, it was. It was a completely automatic response because it was almost like, I have to apologize because what am I about to say? Probably the people in this room are going to be shocked and surprised by. Because it's not going to be some kind of mild man. And Mary, you know that. Yes. And thank you very much. You have shown up a little bit like mild man. Mary, today because shocking and surprising people is something that you do brilliantly. But as you say, this idea that somehow we have to just in the very first moment, we're signaling that somehow there is something not okay about our voice either about what we have done just now or what we are about to do or who we are. And I think that's something we just got to get over. Yeah, we do. We absolutely have to get over. And I think, you know, I have now I'm proud. I'm a proud grandmother. I have a granddaughter, Lottie, who is three in a couple of weeks time and she is definitely being encouraged by everyone, including her father, my grandparents, etcetera, to speak up. And you know, and she does. It's great. Wonderful. So thank you so much to everybody that wrote in with their comments, particularly to Evelyn, Claire and A.B. and to everybody else who hopefully we have answered your questions here today. So this is Judy May is listening. I'm Judy Mae Murphy and we've been here speaking to Mary Keene Dawson today. So, Mary, just one last quick word for a woman who maybe is feeling that what she has to say isn't valid. Everything you have to say is valid without shadow of a doubt. No question about it. Please believe that. Yeah, absolutely. So, women, our experience here on the planet does matter. You do matter. People are listening to you here on Judy. Mae is listening. We're certainly listening to you, so stay engaged. This is your show here on wrs, the voice of women worldwide. And until next week, speak up. Stay awesome and we will see you very, very soon. Take care. Women's radio station is a fresh new broadcasting platform driven by love and passion. 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