In this powerful live episode, Judy Mayer welcomes BBC broadcaster and scriptwriter Yasmeen Khan to discuss what it really means to be a woman and a minority. Far from being about numbers alone, minority status is about power, visibility, safety, and access to privilege. The conversation tackles the nuanced reality of white privilege—exploring both what it means for women of color who lack access to it, and how white women can acknowledge their own privilege while becoming better allies.
The episode dives deep into real experiences shared by listeners, including a letter from DB, a Black woman in financial management who finds herself constantly comforting her white colleagues while feeling unable to show vulnerability herself. Judy explores the emotional labor often required of women of color in professional settings, drawing parallels to Serena Williams’s post-match comfort of a younger opponent. Rather than offering quick fixes, Judy emphasizes the importance of getting comfortable talking about these difficult topics—a prerequisite for real transformation and change.
Throughout the hour, Judy shares her own journey of recognizing her white and middle-class privilege, and how she’s begun asking event organizers about diversity before accepting speaking engagements. She also highlights insights from coach Giselle Ely about how white women can be supportive allies in playful, authentic ways while avoiding distancing language. This is essential listening for anyone wanting to understand the intersections of gender, race, privilege, and how we can all work toward more equitable spaces.
Main Topics
Minority status isn't about numbers—it's about power, visibility, safety, and access to privilege
Women of color often experience emotional labor, feeling obligated to comfort white colleagues while unable to show their own vulnerability
White privilege exists on a spectrum and can coexist with other forms of privilege (class, education, nationality)
White women can become better allies by asking difficult questions about diversity and using inclusive language
Fear of saying the wrong thing shouldn't silence white women from speaking up—silence is a bigger mistake than honest effort
Building authentic allyship means moving from distancing language (like 'you people') to playful, familial connection ('sister')
Creating space for these conversations is the first step toward systemic change and true transformation
Full TranscriptWelcome to Judy Mayer's Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen and tog...▼
Welcome to Judy Mayer's Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen and together we transform everything. Hello and welcome to Judy Mae is listening on a Monday at noon, going live from WRS women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. We have incredible things coming up in this hour. I know everyone always says that, but when I say it, it is definitely true. And one of the things that makes it definitely true is the fact that we have our guest, Yasmeen Khan in studio, a phenomenal woman, BBC broadcaster, broadcaster, lots of different stations and platforms, and a script writer and just phenomenal person. I'm proud to call her a friend and she will just wow you with what she has to say. And we've got our major topic for today is all about being a woman and a minority within that, because what is a minority? If people say, oh, but there's plenty of you, there's loads. Like there is 51% women, therefore you're not a minority. Minority isn't about numbers. It's about things like power. It's about things like visibility, it's about things like feeling safe. All the things we've been discussing over the last few weeks on the show. And we're going to be looking specifically at things like white privilege and what it is like being part of a minority not having access to that white privilege. And then we're going to be looking at the other things. Like a lot of women who are white, they say, well, I'm white and I'm not privileged. So we're going to be unpacking a little bit of that, not claiming we're going to have all the right answers today, but definitely it is a conversation that we need to get very, very comfortable with. In my job as a speaker and a coach, whenever someone needs a transformation around something, the very first thing we do is get them comfortable talking about it. You want to make a lot more money. You need to be talking about money in a positive, transformative way a lot more often if you want to get a lot more healthy, rather than just sort of moaning and saying, oh, I'm going to go on a diet, you need to be able to have vocabulary, the people to talk, to be in the conversation that is about health, so that your mind is directed in that way, that it's focused in that direction. So that's what we're endeavoring to do today. And we have a few letters. But before we go to that, there's just a couple of people I'd like to give shout outs to for you guys, just suggestions for different women. All women from different minority groups who I follow and absolutely adore on Twitter. One of them is loriagarcia07 you met Gloria Garcia. She's the close protection operative, the bodyguard that you met a couple of weeks ago. So that's Gloria Garcia.07 also mraz e m R A Z Z Phenomenal woman who really has a grip on how do we discuss the things that are coming up for us. And I tweeted to her the other day that, you know, I feel like she's my university for adroitly saying what it is that I'm clumsily thinking she really is phenomenal. So please do follow MRAS. Also Dr. Zoe Williams from the UK. Amazing woman when it comes to just getting messages out there about whatever race you are, whatever part of life you come from, about being the healthiest and best you can be. Also just two more two poets Vanessid so it's Vanessa is her first name. So it's V A N E S S I D so at Vanessa, phenomenal poet from Los Angeles and also Felida Hicks. F A Y L I T A H I C K S for Lita Hicks, another phenomenal woman poet. So we're going to start to do that on Judy May's listening set ourselves up for other ways that we can listen and speak to each other rather than just having it this one hour in the week that we that we extend that and we can keep the conversation going in gorgeous ways. So our first letter that we have in first email that I got was from a woman in Philadelphia who only wants to be referred to by her initials. So her name is DB and she works in financial management and she's got a really good, well paid job. And what she says is she's I'm presuming she's she's a black woman. She hasn't said exactly, but I'm presuming that from her from her message she says I'm always having to confront white to comfort rather I'm always having to comfort the white girls in our office when they get upset and cry. I know that if I was to cry I'd be seen as weak. I feel that they don't have to be strong all the time, but I do. I thought this was particularly interesting because a lot of you saw that when Serena Williams beat a younger white opponent recently, she was comforting her afterwards and a lot of people were saying, oh, wasn't that nice of Serena And a lot of black women were saying, well, it's not great that she had to do that. So I have to confess, I was eating almonds just right before you went on air. And yeah, that's what you're hearing right now in my throat. So anyway, all is good. So let's look at that. Let's look at that idea that if you are a woman of color, that you have to even more earn your place at the table. It's a thing that we talk about a lot on Judy Mayer's Listening is this idea of it's not okay for us to be just competent and capable, but we have to be more that we feel as women, we have to give more that we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard, that we have to be seen to be doing things almost perfectly. My understanding that is if you're a woman of color, that's even more so because you're not just there representing women, you're also representing your entire race or your entire religion. And what is it that you feel about that? Like, this is something we're going to be talking to Yasmine Khan about. But what I would say is whenever we have a statement that says, I always have to, I will always want to create a little bit of wiggle room. For what, if you're choosing to now, it might be that you really look at it and you see and you feel that you have no choice. You feel that if you didn't do that, that the other women in the office would feel let down or they would feel that you weren't supportive of them. But whenever we make a statement like, I'm always having to comfort white girls in our office, it sounds, if you're a lovely person and you're choosing to do that, is it possible for you to sit down and have a conversation with them and say, you know what? I don't feel like I've got the same freedom to get upset or why don't we have it that we wait until we all go and have a cup of tea or go to the bar afterwards. I don't know what the answer is for you, but what I would say is that, yes, I just want to acknowledge it. That's the first thing. Acknowledge that. Yeah, that is a thing for you. And it's a thing for a lot of women of color that they feel that they're not allowed to be seen as so called weak, which, you know, crying is being vulnerable. And unfortunately, vulnerability and weakness are still very much connected in a lot of people's minds. So, yeah, this feeling that you have that they don't have to be strong all the time, but you do. I would. I just want to first of all say, you're probably right. You're probably right that in that feeling that you would be judged differently. Which brings me to the next point, and that is I connected to a wonderful woman and a coach and broadcaster called Giselle Ely, who's from New York, from Manhattan, and she's just a phenomenal woman. And I asked her, you know, what can I do with this? I'm not going to pretend that I have all the answers here. I'm not going to say, oh, ignore that cry if you want to. Oh. Because I don't know what it's like to be a black woman. I don't know what it's like to be a minority. I'm a white woman. I'm Irish. Now, maybe 50 years ago, an Irish accent and coming from Ireland would have told against me. You know, they had those signs up everywhere saying, no blacks are Irish. But these days, you know, being Irish is a lovely, cuddly, jolly thing. You know, the. The only thing they want to know is, do you know, you too? I mean, it really doesn't go against you. So I do very much live under white privilege as well as middle class privilege, as well as the privilege of having had an awesome education. So I will always, always own that. And when I'm going around the world speaking on different stages, I get asked to speak on more stages than I accept because sometimes, you know, I just don't want to be on the road again. And I've started to realize that when men started to ask the question of the promoters, do you have enough women? Do you have women speakers already? Before they accept it. They would only accept if there were also women speakers on the panel on the stage for that weekend or that event. So I started asking the question, do you have any women of color on your platform? And it was very interesting. The first two times I did that, they said no. They said no. And one of them said, not yet. And then they didn't get back to me. But nor did they put a woman of color in there. So I'm really happy to be difficult in this. I will happily say no before you get another white woman on board. I think before I become the second white woman, then we definitely need to make sure that women of color are taken care of because I have enough platform, my white privilege, gets me enough space on enough stages, gets me on enough TV shows. I don't have that difficulty that I have to overcome. I'm really excited to speak with Yasmine Khan about it after the first break. But just going to Giselle, who is an African American woman, and she pretty much does the same job that I do. And a question that I asked her was, what is it like when white women like me want to find out how we can, if you like, behave better or integrate better or. Because sometimes we're afraid. In fact, that's a question that I got in. Another note that I got in from Fiona in Kells in Ireland. She says, I'm white, and I often want to say supportive things to or about women of color online and in real life, but I'm scared of either looking condescending or saying the wrong thing and being held up as the typical white woman who doesn't get it. I. Yeah, absolutely, we don't want to be that. But I think that our fear of doing the wrong thing and saying the wrong thing and being seen to be getting it wrong, that is nothing compared to the mistake we could make of being silent on this. So one of the questions I asked Giselle was, you know, how is it that we can speak? What is it that we can say that is helpful and not helpful? And. And Giselle's reply was that what she really loves is if we appropriate a little bit of the language and do it in a playful way, like if a white woman calls her sister, obviously, once they've got rapport together, she really loves that. And what she really hates is if everyone. And this will be very clear why she hates this, anyone would. When people refer to black people, women of color, as you, you people, like, that's a very, very distancing phrase. So the chat we're going to be having with Yasmine after the break is, you know, what encompasses that, all of that middle ground between being comfortable enough to be playful and call someone's sister and feeling like, yeah, we're women in this together. And then also, you know, making sure that we are. We're not being offensive. So how is it that we can bring this forward so that we can recognize that those of us who are women in a more privileged position, how is it that we can help women who are in a less privileged position and bring this all forward? Welcome to women's Radio Station, the voice of women worldwide. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism. And my guest today is Karen. No, welcome to future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on women's radio station. Women's Radio station, We want to hear from you. I listen to women's radio station women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Liz Van Linden, a UK travel consultant for Hazelmere Travel. People come to me as they want unique experiences and a personalised service. This happens from the moment that they inquire till they come back home. I work with luxury tour operators. You can contact me on 078-254-12112 and Liz spelt L I S hazazelmeretravel.co.uk hi, I'm Mariam Jamaux and I'm the founder of WCAN, a young social enterprise ensuring an increase in employment progression and retention of black women in the corporate world. We specialise in the professional and personal development of over 3,000 young black women in the UK. To get involved, please sign up or learn more via wcan.co.uk visit our Twitter or Instagram caanetwork. If you're a corporation interested in sponsorship, email sponsorshipcan.uk Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity, helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntous.org.uk Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten. This is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www. Women's Radio Station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little Will help RADIO STATION. Welcome to Judy Mayer's Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen and together who transform everything. And welcome back. This is Judy Mae Murphy here on women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. And our guest today is Yasmin Khan, who is a broadcaster and scriptwriter and extraordinary woman and the Reason that we have her in today is because she knows a lot about succeeding while living as part of a minority. Would that be Yasmin, the way that you would describe it or how would you describe it? Yeah, I guess it's interesting hearing your own description back. You kind of think, hang on, is that me? Yeah, that is me. And I was just thinking through, first of all, thank you for the awesome big up and description. I was like, I can't live up to that. But yeah, every field I've worked in or work in has been tough anyway, just, just because I've chosen, happen to have chosen things that are quite competitive and just difficult. There are lots of barriers to entry anyway, but they are all more doubly so if you are someone from any kind of minority background, whether it's being different through your ethnicity or through your. Whether or not you're able bodied or whatever it might be. But yeah, none of them are particularly easy. And I'm sitting here thinking, why don't I choose an easier job? Yeah, why don't I do that? But first of all, before we get into this, do you know you two do. No. I met Bono once. I used to sort of be a talking head on radio in the 90s in Ireland about cultural issues. And there was a Beckett thing and he showed up and he actually showed up after most people had left. He thought he was being fashionably late, but he was, he just actually created an after party. So there's, there's that. And I think the other question that you have to ask is something about Guinness and Right things. I don't drink. Make sure for that. Just tick all the boxes. Well, this is the thing, as you were saying earlier, there's, there are all those fun aspects because, you know, you say you're Irish and everyone's like, oh, that's great, you must know, you know, Bono and he must all these things. And I think there is that with every culture and minority. But sadly, as we know, there's also a lot of negative associations and stereotypes, and I'm careful how I use that word, because some stereotypes do exist for a reason. So, you know, for example, I was part of a theater group called Muju, which literally stood for Muslim Jewish. And we were able to take the mickey out of ourselves and one another because that was the kind of remit, because I think when you're comfortable enough to laugh at yourself, then the outside world sees you as comfortable with yourselves and will learn a bit more about you. And our remit was we'll never laugh at religious aspects, but we'll laugh at the culture and we will send ourselves up and that kind of thing. But there are always negative associations and some stereotypes. Yes. Like overbearing mums and things like that. Yep, some of those exist. But it's a battle, I think, to bring it back to the workplace, which is what we were wanting to talk about, is it's a battle to get over some of those in the workplace. Because, I mean, if I can, if I recounted some of the things that have been said to me over the years, you. You'd kind of think, wow. And in fact, looking back on some of them, I think, wow. What would be. What would be one wow moment where you're just like, I can't believe that came out of your mouth. I can't believe I'm living this moment now. They've all come tumbling, so I might as well get them all out of the way. I have encountered small microaggressions of racism and not said anything. So, for example, when I was very young and sort of first working, I was working. I won't say where it was, but I was working. And there was. It was a lunch and I was actually on work experience at the time and the woman running the team, and sadly, it was a woman referred to me in an American term that was racist. And, you know, because you think, hang on, I don't quite know that term, but I think it's really bad. And everyone shrunk around the table and no one said anything. Now, me, now, today, I would have said something. She wouldn't have got to the end of the sentence and I would have certainly said something. So, you know, looking back on it, it still makes me angry now that I didn't say anything. And why do you think it is that you didn't say anything at the time? Was it simply because you were conditioned, as many women are, to play nice? Or do you think it was more of a cultural thing, or do you think it was more of a. That was the culture we were living in at the time where it wasn't really part of the discussion? I think it wasn't part of the discussion. I think I was grateful to be at the table, quite literally, youth and inexperience. But also nobody had said to me, and, you know, it's going to be difficult once you get into the workplace. It's not the same necessarily as it is at school or university. It's going to be hard when you get there because of this, this and this. And I often think about that is that we train ourselves, perhaps if we've done something vocational about the actual skills of the job. But we don't. We don't give much training for what the culture of the workplace is like, whether it's an. Or whether it's a factory or whether it's a shop. And there's when I think, particularly when you're first climbing the ladder, it's incredibly difficult to navigate all of those. And you feel. And I certainly remember that feeling, that sensation of I can't say anything. And it was a shock. And then later on in my career, when I was working to a pretty high level at that point, I was bullied. And it took me a while to realize that I was being bullied and sadly was by a woman, you know, not to, you know, anyone can bully anyone. But it was confusing because it was a woman. It was confusing because I didn't quite realize what was happening at first. And I remember my flatmate, and she is my closest friend and my flatmate, she was living there at the time, and I would come home and she's like, you're stressed every night. And it's not just the job. And it took me a while to realize it wasn't. What she meant was, it's not the nuts and bolts of commuting and what have you. But this isn't normal. This isn't normal. Above and beyond. Yeah. And you were sure that it had something to do with your cultural background and not to do with just a personality, because that's the first thing that women are told. Things like, I remember when I was having a hard time in university with a professor, went and reported it to another professor who was more senior and was told, oh, there's often personality clashes. Yeah, and. And you sort of think, well, what do I do with that? And you have to be really careful because I'm not one to kind of, I think very carefully before I will say, even to myself, I think this is about who I am quite literally, rather than who Yasmine is, whether or not she'll get on with you or not. And I think looking at it, there was a combination of both. There was all kinds of things in there. There were constant references to the fact that I was from the north, that there was surprise. There was a constant dig about my background in a kind of jokey way. And we all do that because we're Brits and we, you know, take the mickey out of one another. But these constant little digs. And I remember a conversation around university and There was huge surprise expressed when I said that I had three siblings and I'm the youngest of four, and that they'd all gone to university. And there was a certain amount of eyebrow raising that, oh, well, you know. And some of the people around me said, well, we were the first people in our families to go to university. And I was like, well, I wouldn't have said anything, but, you know, they were kind of pushing and pushing. There were assumptions around what I could and couldn't do, what I was allowed to do, who I was allowed. And I say allowed in sort of inverted commas to be because of the perception of who I was. So tell us a little bit about that background, like where your parents are from, from. So I, I grew up in a village in Yorkshire, was born and bred in Yorkshire, but my parents are from Pakistan, from the northwest frontier in Pakistan. And my entire family, apart from my immediate family, are there. And do I know most of them? No. Do a lot of them look like me? Yes, as I discovered when I visited. But yeah, you know, I'm. I was born very much brought up with a sense of, of my roots because my dad said, you must speak Pashto, which was our language. You must speak Pashto at home. And you know, when you were a kid, you're like, don't care, you know, cause I'm bilingual. But you know, you flip between the two at home. But he would catch us speaking English and he wasn't anti English, he was very much an Anglophile. Actually. I found out a lot about the fact that he'd lived in Britain much earlier than we had thought by accident. That's a whole nother story. But yeah, it wasn't because he hated English, it was because he wanted us to have that richness of knowing where we came from and who we were. And I absolutely applaud him for that now because it means I can talk to my mum about people on the bus without them knowing. A useful skill. And also, being Irish, you learn the Irish language in school growing up, and it's very useful, particularly when you meet people from countries where they speak every language beautifully. And then suddenly you start speaking in Irish, you're kind of like one that you can't do. But I think it is an interesting area, the whole thing about language, because again, it sort of is very telling around this whole thing of privilege, because if you have someone like myself, middle class, white, well spoken, and we speak several languages, we're called a polyglot. But if you come from a minority and you speak several languages. You're just called, well, why can't you speak English? Yeah. You know, it's just a very, very different sort of double standard. You're the immigrant. Forever the immigrant. And you, there's a certain. There can be some anger about how you got your place. And that's what I sensed from this woman. And what was interesting at that age is I was certainly in a position to speak up, and I did. But what I found really interesting in your introduction that you said, and I hadn't recognized that I'd really done this, is that I have told this story before. She said, that's a very serious allegation. You're accusing me of bullying. I said, yes, it is, isn't it? And she went and locked herself in the toilet and started crying. And I went to comfort her and coax her out. Now, I didn't need to do that, but I felt compelled that I should do that. Yeah. And as women in general, we know what it's like to, say, confront a husband or a boyfriend or a partner, and. And then they get upset, and then we have to make them okay about being upset. But this is that happening on a whole other level all the time. Yeah. In society at large. So I think there might even be a documentary in that. Who's allowed to cry? Yeah. And why. Why I felt like I then had to. Okay, yes. She's feeling, you know, wrought, and I have to go and kind of comfort her. Why should I have to do that? I'm the one that's been bullied for weeks. And that as well, is why I'm often outside of a radio show situation, quite loath to ask women, you know, help me, teach me to understand. Because part of me is like, well, it's not. It's not their job. Like, it wasn't really Giselle's job to teach me how to speak to her better. But Giselle makes a beautiful point that, you know, the job needs to be done and we do need to find out about each other's cultures, and we do need to keep this conflict conversation very, very much open and not be afraid to have the conversation. That's it. Not be afraid when you know that both people are just coming from a place of trying to. Being curious and trying to understand and trying to do it better, which hopefully is what we're doing here today on Judy May is listening. So more coming up right after this break. Women's radio station is a fresh new broadcasting platform driven by love and passion, connecting women around the world. In a global network is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education. We aim to show the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and a platform for your voice. Women, the possibilities are endless. 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We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Welcome to Judy Mayer's Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen and together we transform everything. And welcome back. This is Judy Mae Murphy here on women's radio station wrs. The Voice of women worldwide. And our guests today, Yasmin Khan, the amazing broadcaster and screenwriter, by the way. Do follow her on Twitter. What's your Twitter handle? It's Yasmin Khan One. So it's Yasmine with two E's and a J. No, Y. I'm sorry, and a Y. The cardinal sin has been. Yeah, it's Y, A, S, M, double E, N for November, then K, H A N for November, and then the number one, Yasmine Khan won. Good. Glad we got that sorted because you have some amazing news coming out later on this week and I don't want anyone to miss that. I'm gutted that we can't share it with everybody today, but clearly. But not quite. Absolutely phenomenal and huge and great. And we always support women doing incredible things. And speaking about incredible things, you did say right before we started that you were going to rewrite my jingle for me or give me a second jingle. We love our jingle. It's a brilliant jingle. I just thought you might want more in the. You know. What were you thinking? Well, something that, I mean, I wouldn't sing on it because it would make your ears bleed. Everyone's ears bleed, and nobody wants that. I was thinking more of freestyle rap. Yeah. It's something I'm really known for. It's not something I'm known for. We'll work on it after the show. Something that goes a bit like J to the M, you know, J to the M is a good start. Something along those lines. I mean, that's the start. If anyone's got the next. The next line, the next rest of it. I realize I haven't gone anywhere with that, but, yeah, you and I, whenever we talk, it always goes off in a hundred different directions. But I just wanted to pick up briefly on what I was saying before about being bullied. And I thought, hang on a second, there'll be a lot of people who are listening going, well, you spoke up. Forget about the having to comfort someone thing. How do you speak up? Absolutely. And I think that the first thing is that people, whenever people are trying to speak up around anything, they think that they have to get it perfectly right. And I always believe that the very first thing you have to do is to say it imperfectly and then you can course correct. Yeah, so. So if you just sort of blurt something and then you can sort of say, so what I'm trying to say here is. Or you listen to the person's reaction and then the reaction tells you where you haven't where it hasn't landed, where your intention hasn't landed. There's a huge parallel there with writing, actually, because people will say, what are you scared of? And I'm like a blank page with a cursor flashing on it with nothing on it. And until I start something, you have, you know, famous writing saying is writing is rewriting. Absolutely. And until you have something, you can't refine it. And I think it's the same with speaking up. And particularly in the workplace. We all are understandably worried about, well, what will the boss say? What will my colleagues say? I don't like confrontation, all of those things. You can take it as given that they're not necessarily going to disappear. So unless you do say something, no matter as you say how unrefined, you won't have a starting point. You'll never get off the starting block. And I think the reason that a lot of women don't get off that starting block is because they just have a feeling that it's not okay for them to want or need things. Particularly in certain cultures, women are trained to be needless and wantless, that your value is in not speaking up. Your value is in being helpful to the point of servile in many cultures, you know, keeping quiet. You know, a very good friend said recently about how in her native Turkey, the. That's very much the expectation for women, even though culturally they are allowed to walk around free and wear what clothes they want and go and drink beer. But at the same time, there's sort of this idea, this expectation that your function is more important than you as a person. And is that something that you've noticed in the Pakistani community? Yeah, there's huge aspects of that, and it is changing, but I know that a lot of it remains where people expect women to have a certain place and not work in certain jobs or do certain things. And you, you kind of carry it, I think, to, you know, depending on the family in the background and everything to a lesser or greater extent. But you carry all of that going in in your life and to a workplace. And so, you know, when you were saying about that, it, you know, we were saying it's hard anyway, when you go to any workplace, you defining who you are, you're still trying to figure out for yourself who you are. And with it comes all this sort of weight of expectation of, am I meant to be here? Can I speak up? Can I say something? Am I allowed? Am I allowed? And that's a silent question that I know for a lot of the time for me went on in my head is, am I okay being here? Am I allowed to be here? And that's doubly or if not more so for women of color. I know that when I was little, I have a really clear memory of my dad saying to me, you're going to have to work twice as hard. And if you speak to a lot of as. As as anyone else in the workplace and if you speak to a lot of. I know a lot of my Asian friends and peers have said the same thing, Asian and black is. They were told from a young age, you want to do that, you're gonna have to work twice as hard and twice as hard because you, you do have to battle those stereotypes twice as hard because you do have to battle a strange kind of envy or jealousy. And I hate those, I hate those sensations, never mind saying those words. But it's odd. It's odd that you kind of are looked at sometimes. And I realize here we're making huge generalizations, but I don't walk in somewhere with a chip on my shoulder. But you will often notice, like, why is someone responding differently to me than they are to that other person there? And it's a double unfairness because initially you have to work twice as hard and then you hit with the presumption that you've only had to work half as hard because you've been given some freebie because of being a minority, you've been thrown a bone. Nobody wants to be anywhere thinking that they've just got there on a, you know, box ticking exercise. And if I look at, you know, I work in theatre, I work in radio, I work in telly, I work in lots of sectors where there is a huge conversation about diversity and there are all kinds of schemes. Now, now, this conversation isn't new. It's been going on and it's come round again and again. But this time around, something in the last two years feels like it's shifting slightly because we cannot have this. This conversation is getting tedious, frankly. And conversation without action doesn't go anywhere. So there are diversity initiatives in some places, they've chosen to do a quota. There are all kinds of things going on. No one, I tell you, for now, no one on those initiatives wants to feel that they're there for any other reason than merit. So you're very aware when you, you get a toe in the door somewhere. But frankly, we need those schemes and those, whatever they are, you know, in each industry it's different, but we need them because these are People who've been banging on the door forever and not getting anywhere. And the more singular the narrative is out there, whether it's on radio or whether it's in television drama or whatever it might be, the more singular the narrative is, the more that we, and I use the biggest sense of the phrase we, all of us, we don't get to hear who we are, we don't get a different voice. And it's really hard when someone else is speaking on your behalf. And do you think that that inability to get that different voice and to be heard for who you are starts in the home? That if you don't really get to explore who you are in the home because you have certain roles and expectations, that then once you do get into a position where maybe you could be more expressive and hold platform and be more visible, as we were talking about last week with Me Elfrison, that suddenly you're hit with, well, actually, who am I? Apart from? Whether it's, you know, apart from being a Jewish woman, apart from being a black woman, apart from being an Indian woman, Like, who. Who am I? Yeah, it's really hard to get caught between those two things. It's a strange middle ground where you are in some ways very adept and comfortable at treading two cultures. You know, I am. Both my parents are Pakistani, I'm Pakistani, I'm British born. I feel very much both of those things. I haven't spent much time in Pakistan, but I remember, and it starts from a young age, you're kind of one thing at home and another thing at school and you get very adept at. Tell us a bit about that. One of your documentaries that I really loved. The one where you were following up on a radio documentary that had been made before. Oh, it was the Bargie on the Beach. Okay. So I love that documentary. Thank you very much. Bargie on the beach was a film that came out 25 years ago and it was sort of comedy drama and it tackled a lot of issues about Asian women in Britain. And it's about all these women that go on a day trip to Blackpool and that, you know, it covers issues of divorce, domestic violence, all kinds of things. And it was 25 years this year, since last year, sorry, since that film was made. And I decided through a documentary to. To sort of revisit that and look at some of those issues by taking a group of very brilliant and very diverse British Asian women, mums and daughters, to the seaside. So we sort of created the. Recreated the scenario. And what was interesting is, yes, a Lot has changed, but sadly, a lot hadn't moved on as well. What hadn't moved on was the fact that you were still having to have the conversation, have the conversation still something that needed to be discussed. And we. And a lot of people who are sort of saying, oh, I'm getting bored with all this talk about racism and sexism or whatever, it's kind of like, great, but your boredom isn't the point. The point is we're going to keep talking about it until it. Until change happens. Because as I was saying, you know, you can. Conversation and debate is great, but unless there's action that comes out of it, you know, I've kind of shrugged my shoulders, I think, you know, being very honest. And it was a very honest conversation in that minibus that day and on the beach and that it's not just, you know, we often talk about all things have to change in the predominant culture or in the workplace. Both have to change. So the community. And again, I kind of hate using that word. You're using that your air quotes again. But if you look at the Asian community, well, there's no such thing because, you know, we're not all one homogenous mass of people. But I'll use it as shorthand. Communities have to change as well and have to be willing to. To speak up and to look at the roles of women within them and say, yeah, we should be able to do this and get comfortable with themselves. And I think that's when a point of change happens, a tipping point happens is when, you know, you get a second and a third generation of people, they start to become comfortable and less afraid. And that's when change can happen. So some change has happened. I realize I'm not talking in specifics here, but, you know, there's still a long way to go. Well, after the break, we're going to start talking more in specifics, practical things that have shifted for women in minorities. And we realize it's not just race. We're mostly talking about race here in religion. But we realize also it's to do with class. It's to do with physical ability. It's to do with a lot of things. It's to do with that, you know, being a woman isn't the only thing that's making life a little bit trickier for you. So we're going to be looking at some really practical ways that we can not just keep the conversation going, but, as Yasmin quite rightly points out, start to do practical things. How is it that we can support each other beyond just sort of doing likes on Facebook. And how is it that we can really be a force to be reckoned with? Because the Women's March, the second Women's March, just happened in the United States and a lot of women of color last year were claiming that as a. As a white women's March, just as a lot of the black rights stuff that's going on, some of the women within that are sort of saying, well, that's all about rights for black men. So we're going to be looking at that right after these. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of women worldwide. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spiritual. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism. And my guest today is Karen no. Welcome to future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on women's Radio station. Women's Radio Station, we want to hear from you. I listen to Women's Radio Station Women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Liz Van Linden, a UK travel consultant for Hazelmere Travel. People come to me as they want unique experiences and a personalized service. This happens from the moment that they inquire till they come back home. I work with luxury tour operators. You can contact me on 078-254-12112 and Liz spelt L I S hazazelmaertravel.co.uk hi, I'm Mariam Jamaux and I'm the founder of WCAN, a young social enterprise ensuring an increase in employment progression and retention of black women in the corporate world. We specialise in the professional and personal development of over 3,000 young black women in the UK. To get involved, please sign up or learn more via wcan.co.uk, visit our Twitter or Instagram caanetwork. If you're a corporation interested in sponsorship, email sponsorshipcan.uk Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity, helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntous.org.uk Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten, this is where careers ignite, where playwrights take Risks where great actors perform just for feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk. Women's radio station is a not for profit community interest company. Supplies supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Welcome to Judy Mayer's Listening. This is the show where you tell me what's happening in your life and I listen and together we transform everything. And today on Judy Mae Is Listening with Judy Mae Murphy and my guest, Yasmin Khan. We are transforming the whole area of being a minority within a minority. What's it like to be a woman of color? What's it like to be a woman who's living under white privilege or any of the other privileges that really do exist and we do have to acknowledge. So, Yasmin, you were saying before the break that there are lots of different ways when you were growing up in your household where you had to kind of compartmentalize yourself. There was one part of you that was having to be much more Pakistani. The other part that was sort of very British. What. What would you say about that? I think, you know, looking back on it, it's turned into an advantage because you do get very adept at working your way through different crowds and being able to be malleable and fit in. And I really value it. Now, I think at the time, it's difficult because you're a teenager, things are hard anyway, and you don't quite know who you are in any sense of the word, but you're kind of expected to be slightly different at home than you are at school. And that can be at that age. I think that can be a real burden. So what would that look like? I guess that would look like getting to a point where all my friends at school were allowed to go out and here comes a bit of a stereotype. But yeah, my parents were stricter than the average. You know, I was the only non white kid in my school. So, you know, I think about 1500, I think later on in school there were a couple more who were non white white, but it was pretty much me. And so you're just very aware of difference. And it's not like you go around and look in the mirror, go, I'm brown. Oh, my God, I don't look like anyone else, but you are aware, you're aware that you are different and that conversations around, for example, I'm trying to think, oh, boys, you know, boys was a, you know, don't talk to boys, don't talk to boys. And then suddenly you get to an age where don't talk to boys, get married, get married. Wait, hang on a second. Where's the bridge between don't talk to a boy and then get married, get married without having had any kind of conversation ever with a boy? So there was all of that because, you know, my parents were relatively, relatively strict. I thank them now because I wasn't allowed out as much as I say, as the average kid. But it meant I ended up watching a lot of television, which, you know, as a teenager we tend to love anyway. But I fell in love with it even more so. And it was from that age that was like, I want to work in the media, I want to. How do I get to write that stuff? How do I get to be in that world? But again, relating it back to my life now, there was no one in those worlds, whether it was radio, television, that looked like me, let alone wrote for those things or looked like me on a stage, in a theater or worked in those environments. So do you find it more helpful now for young girls? Do you think they have a chance of seeing themselves on, on screen and on stage? Yeah, and it makes it, it really makes a difference because just there must be. I'm sure a psychologist would have a phrase for it, but there must be something about just seeing yourself reflected black, someone who has the same skin tone as you, someone who has a name that's a bit different, like, or someone who has the, the same kind of hair that you do, to see yourself validate. It's a validation. Yeah. And when you don't see that your sense of self is fragmented, you're kind of pulling yourself together from bits of ideas rather than having a clear vision of that person. So if you imagine someone who is in a village in West Yorkshire where they live slap bang in the middle of the village, that I should get, I keep saying, I'll get a T shirt with this on, but we were the only Asians in the village. And I'm there, you know, trying to make things work at school, looking at just 17 and going, why doesn't. I don't look like any of these girls? But not. I'm not sure I did either. No, to be fair, I'm not sure if I had that, that bigger smile, red trousers and Be able to leap over a puddle with that degree of glee. I think we need to recreate that pose outside. I'm a big fan of that. Let's do it. Yeah, people can find that on Twitter later. Yeah, we will do that. And I've. Yeah, you know, it's hard. You're navigating, as you say. You're fragmenting anyway, at that age and you're just trying to piece yourself together from all these things. You bring that forward now. And I can walk into a workplace and feel confident with who I am. But we've been talking a lot about, as you said, about race. But to me, the word goes back to difference. And I think for me, it's just my personality, but because I was the one that was different. Yes, there were people at school who were different in different ways. She says, overusing the word different, but let's just keep going with it now. But to me, I get. I personally get quite upset when I think, how can you look at someone else and have a go at them or have hatred towards them? There's something that's different about all of us. That is what makes us human. Surely that's what part of makes us human. And I think as well that it's not just having a go or being negative sometimes it's about just ignoring a fact. So, for example, if you have someone in the office, a woman who's lesbian, for example, and the rest of us straight girls are all chatting about boys and we don't acknowledge and we don't ask the question and, you know, does this seem really silly to you or does this. Can you relate to this at all? You know, who do you fancy right now? And don't maybe include her and have that conversation that she might feel very, you know, left out and unsupported, just as a very simple example. Yeah, absolutely. Including people having that empathy and understanding. Because I know we want to talk about practical things and not being afraid to ask, even if you feel a bit. Look, I'm used to it. If someone comes up to me, you know, I used to. Coming from a Muslim background, I haven't for a while because of health reasons, but I would often be fasting for Ramadan and be in the workplace when that was happening. And, you know, we have a roll call of questions. Yes. No, not even water. No. I don't sneak a Mars bar or whatever at lunchtime when no one's looking, you know, but we kind of slightly. It's an eye roll thing. But at the same time, don't be afraid to ask. It's okay to ask, but acknowledge difference and be aware that it can be difficult to be the one who is different, whether it's because of a disability, whether it's because of it, whatever it might be. It's sort of like when a man comes up to me and if he says something like, oh, is it okay for me to hold the door open? And if he says it in a way that's kind of like, I just. I want to. I want to be right by you. I would love to hold the door open for you, but I don't want to offend you. And you can hear that in the tone and the way that he asks it. Yeah. Whereas if a man like, oh, I suppose you got a problem with me holding the door for you, that's the different thing. And there you feel like, no, that is condescending. That is you seeing me as problematic. That is you seeing me as, you know, creating something, making your life difficult, and why don't I just go away and keep quiet? Yeah. And so I think I know certainly for when it comes to men asking me, you know, how can I get this right? There's a certain tone to it. So I'm imagining if we just transfer that tone and say, listen, I just want to get this right. What's. What is it? What's going on here? Like, what should I know? So if you've got someone who you is Muslim and Roundhand's coming up, and just ask them, you know, how can I support you? Can I maybe, you know, do you want to swap a holiday day with me? Do you want to, or would you rather we not acknowledge it at all? Or is it going to be helpful to you if we have the meeting that we were due to have? You know, I remember breaking my fast during meetings when it was a winter fast and the fast would break at that sort of time. And I was fine with it. But, you know, somebody else might say, do you know, why don't we move the meeting to four instead of five something, because then you're going to be able to break your fast after the meeting, you know, not that you should have to work around it or anything like that, be overly accommodating, but just to understand what someone else's experience is. Just that. Just exactly that is having that empathy to understand what it might be like for someone else, no matter what their situation. I'm trying to think of other occasions where, you know, Ramadan is a really practical one, I guess, but there's. There's often the. Again, it's assumptions and things and funny example here, but I remember being quite young and working and I was looking at. We were all sat around a table in the big sort of conference room and we were looking at a mailing that was going to be done to some clients. And, you know, I'm from a Muslim background, but I've always been very interested in other cultures and particularly South Asian cultures growing up around it. You know, my, My parents, friends were from Muslim, Sikh, Hindu backgrounds, all kinds. And I was looking at this mailing and I forget exactly what it was, but there was a Hindu God on it. And I said, I piped up and I said, listen, I. I don't think you should be putting that with this, but sort of denigrates it. And, you know, we've seen in the last few years there's been various Hindu gods on items of fashion, clothing. It's like it's not quite right. That's not how that should be treated. And I, and I said this. And they went, oh, we hadn't thought of that. And I said, yeah, given whatever the topic was for the mailing, I don't think it's right that that's there. The juxtaposition. Doesn't work, doesn't work. And they were like, oh, okay, yeah, sure. No, we get that, we get that. And I felt like, hey, I did something useful today. So the meeting carries on and we get round to the next thing that needs to be mailed out. And it was something to do with Poland. And someone said, oh, I guess wait. We need to be careful of the timing though, don't we? Because of the Polish bank holidays. Everyone in the room turned to me and I was like. Because they expected me to know when the Polish bank holidays were. And I'm like, whoa, okay, you were suddenly the PC princess. Yeah. Just because I knew one thing doesn't mean. I mean, I wish I knew when the Polish bank got me. I mean, do they even call them bicolors? I have no idea. But it was very funny because you soon become the voice of. You know, suddenly I'm an expert on all things. But that's the other thing is don't assume that that one person is going to know everything. Don't make them representative of their culture. They are an individual as well. So if they're not doing what you might expect, like fasting or whatever, that's fine too. It's like a lot of friends of mine are school scriptwriters in LA on sitcoms. They Say, whenever they're in the room. And if someone gets stuck on what a particular woman character would do, the men will just all turn around and go, what? What would a woman do? Yeah. And we don't know any because we can't possibly imagine ourselves into their experience. And also, you know, of course, all women will. There's a women's thing to do. What would you know that there's just one generic thing. There are things not to say, like, you know, do you wear saris at the weekend? Is it just in the workplace that you wear, you know, like a normal dress, you know, and you kind of scarf and things. But these are things that have been said to me that is interesting. But at the same time, then somebody might just not know that they might not know. Yes. I'm just blown away sometimes at people's sort of level of ignorance. So if someone says to me something like, Ireland. Yes. That's in England, isn't it? And I just say, well, it's actually right beside England, but. But I know. And Bono owns all of it at this stage. You might well be right on that one then, girl. Yeah. It is important to realize, I think, when people just simply don't know, because innocence is okay, but continued ignorance is not. So we just need to keep asking the questions and supporting each other in that and be a true sister in that sense. Our sister, as Giselle would say. Thank you so much to. To Giselle Eli, and to DB From Philadelphia and to Fiona from Kells in Ireland. Please do write in and let me know what it is that's going on with you, because I'm Judy Mae Murphy and I am listening today. Big, big thank you to our guest, Yasmine Khan. Do join her on Twitter. See all the fabulous things she's doing, and we will see each other next week. Women's radio station is a fresh new broadcasting platform driven by love and passion. Connecting women around the world in a global network is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education. We aim to show the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and a platform for your voice. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. 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Our services include community mediation for neighbour disputes, family mediation for separating couples, special education needs for parents, carers and their children and young adults, as well as workplace mediation and restorative services. To find out more head to womensradiostation.com or theaproject.co.uk let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten. This is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk. Women's radio station is a not for profit community interest companies. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate simply head to our website. Every little will help.
