Love Lessons – Recovery From Toxic Relationships, Maria Huant

Hello, I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons Live. Hope you're all well. Thank you for tuning in again with me this week. So, Love Lessons is the show where we discuss everything from dating, relationships, divorce, to starting over again as a brand spanking new confidence single. And today we've got a really interesting show which is all about relationships. More importantly, we're going to talk about a few things that have come up in the media of late. The idea around toxic relationships where it's something that gets talked about a lot with all of these reality TV shows. I'm not talking about in the us, but, sorry, the uk, but also in the US and overseas. And a few things have cropped up, dubbing certain behaviors in dating and relationships as toxic. So it got us to thinking that we'd like to cover it, we'd like to get to know more about it and we'd like to eradicate it if it's not the right terminology or at the very least understand what it is. So I have got the wonderful Maria Huant in the studio today. Just checking that I said her name right. And she is a relationships counsellor specializing in all sorts of things such as grievances, anxieties, depression, as well as conflict and communication. So welcome to Maria. Hello, Sarah. Thank you for having me. And such a journey you've taken from the city of London to Covent Garden here today. That's right. So, Maria, tell us a little bit more about you and how you started off working in this industry where you're helping couples reconnect and connect on a deeper level. Well, I started studying anthropology a long, long time ago. And then because I was really fascinated by people and how they connect, I became a relationships counsellor with Relate, the main relationship counseling charity. But now I have my own practice in the City and I help people from all walks of life to really try and understand their role in relationships. Amazing. It's what we love here on Love Lessons. Tell me, how long have you and the listeners, how long have you been doing this for helping couples reconne? Approximately five or six years. Five or six years. And is it relationship specifically that you specialise in? It is, but that's the rub. It's relationships, not just between partners, it could be between a person and their family. And crucially, the relationships we have with ourselves, really importantly, and we will actually get to discussing that a little bit later on. Right now I want to jump into this idea that we approached you about toxic relationships because we know the media is talking about them left, right and center. And here's just a couple of things I'm going to pull up and we'll get into them on a deeper level. Things that I've heard in the media, I've heard people chatting about and I've also found of course in that wonderful World Wide Web, so the idea of gaslighting. And then I found things such as the bad tempered toxic partner, the independent non dependent toxic partner, and the idea of a possessive and paranoid toxic partner making a relationship, I guess, toxic. So when I'm saying this word toxic over and over again and just giving you those words and those sentences that have been dubbed in what I would deem to be an unhealthy balance in a relationship, somehow, how does it make you feel as a professional in the field hearing those words? Well, Sarah, one of the things that comes up when we think of toxic relationships is that idea of imbalance is are people being treated as they are treating their partners? Is their balance? Is there compromise? Are mutual needs being met? When that doesn't happen and when there's one rule for one partner and are different for the other, then we have to begin to think of what's happening in that relationship. So often when we. In fact, I'm going to read to you something that I found by definition, I guess people have tried to define it in their very best terms what a toxic relationship is. It's apparently, according to the World Wide Web, characterized by behaviors on the part of the toxic partner that emotionally and not infrequently physically damaging to their partner. A healthy relationship can contribute to our self esteem and our emotional energies, whilst a toxic relationship can be draining and damaging to one's energy or both. So what is that? Is that accurate? Would you say that that's accurate? That's out there for the world to read when they're hearing toxic relationship. Oh my goodness, what is that? How does it show itself up? Absolutely. I like to explain relationships to my clients as a mirror. If you have a mirror that gives you an image of yourself that is ugly and that you don't recognize, then that relationship has got something fundamentally wrong with it. Whereas if in a relationship the image that comes back of who you are according to the person you're with is one of beauty, of potential, of growth, then that is a nurturing relationship. So what we really look for are relationships that just make you feel bad, that make you feel like you're not someone that deserves love, affection and nurturing. Often when, and I know people, of course, I think we all do, and Especially in our professional fields, we come across people that have been in a relationship with an unhealthy balance. There are often times when they don't spot it themselves. How does that come about? How can we sometimes not see it or choose not to see it if a relationship isn't serving us in a healthy way? Well, just like the label toxic relationships is out there, we also have a lot of scripts about what relationships ought to be. So often we will. Well, if this relationship has got a lot of arguing, it means that it's passionate. If this relationship has got a lot of conflict, it means we really value each other. We really don't always remember to check in with ourselves about how a relationship makes us feel. So it's really important when you're wondering whether your relationship is a healthy one that you think, how does this compare to the relationships I have in the rest of my life? Would I allow my boss to treat me this way? Are my parents saying things like this to me? Because ultimately, being loved and valued, whether it's in a romantic relationship or not, is something that should never be compromised. And I think it's really important how you listed some things that really are huge red flags for a toxic relationship. Of course we think of the just the dialogue of people insulting each other or saying horrible things to each other, judging each other. But sadly, we just encounter things that are completely unacceptable out there that do come up. Things like verbal violence, things like physical violence. Those things are things that nobody should ever tolerate in relationships. And no matter what you see in the media, no matter what you see on tv, those are things that if you check with yourself, you would never be happy about. Really interesting. And obviously we're talking about some really important topics today, overarchingly about relationships and what feels good and what might not feel good. And just you mentioned a moment ago, verbal violence and physical. I'd like to put the physical aside and really hone in on the idea of verbal violence and the words that we share amongst one another in a relationship that can be detrimental to the way we perceive ourselves. How does that show itself up? And what are the repercussions of having toxic conversations with each other? Absolutely. One thing that comes up all the time in my practice are clients that describe to me terms in which they are labeled by a partner, which they would not allow from anyone else. When there is that kind of slap on sticker that says, you are a diva, you are a drama queen, you're needy, you're aggressive, narcissistic. When somebody tries to give you a label and tries to tell you what you are and that just feels like not you. Then you begin to think of verbal violence and you begin to think of why is that partner trying to convince me that I am something I don't feel? And inevitably, if you hear it more often than not and if you feel like you're receiving labels more than words of love, more often than not, is it that we can convince ourselves that we are those things and it becomes like some sort of self actualization to those labels and terms? Definitely. And that's one really important aspect of toxic relationships. There is that drip, drip effect where over time. Yes, I was going to say talk to us about that effect over time. People who are really, really confident, who are very able in their journ jobs, who have got really healthy friendships, will at times be a little bit brainwashed about who they are. And that's where we begin to think of gaslighting, where somebody really just puts an idea in your head of something that you are and at the beginning it sounds completely not you. But check in 5, 10, 15 years later and you've come to believe that your problems are always inflated, that your relationships are always full of conflict and you just stop believing that you are who you thought you were. A slow chipping away over someone's self esteem and confidence in the way they project themselves out in the world, perhaps. Really, really interesting. Very sensitive subject and topic to discuss, but very important. We're talking about toxic relationships here with Maria, who aren't, is that right? Yes. And we are getting to grips what gaslighting is. After the break, we'll also be talking about those labels that I've just mentioned that are kind of associated with a toxic relationship, such as, you know, this possessive and paranoid toxic controller and all of that stuff. And I really want to pick Maria's brains as an expert and a relationship counselor who's encountered couples having conflict and having communication breakdowns. And we really want to reframe the idea of toxic relationships and help people figure out if they're for themselves in a relationship that makes them feel good or makes them not feel so good. And so we'll get to that with Maria's help right after the break. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan here on Love Lessons and we're talking toxic relationships with the wonderful Maria. And we'll be right back after the break. Welcome to women's radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on Women's Radio station. Hello and welcome to future classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being and we're talking all things autism women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Tracey Weedon of Brownhill Insurance Group. We are an award winning family run insurance broker covering a wide range of insurance products ranging from commercial lines to personal household, high net worth and fine art. You can contact us on 0208658-4334 or visit our website www.brownhillgroup.co.uk for your free no obligation quotation at Brownhills. We've got you covered. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon, I'm a birth doula and mum of three and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show From Tummy to Mummy here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything, fertility, pregnancy, birth and baby related right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover and mental health advocate and you can listen to my show get booked here at Women's Radio station daily at 5am and 5pm throughout my shows we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chapter authors, publishers and book enthusiasts, all with a theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch@presentersomensradiostation.com join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@mediamattersforwomen.org you're listening to women's radio stations supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station is creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter womensradiostation that's womensradio STN or Facebook women's radio station to keep up to date with all our exciting programmes. Hello and welcome back to Love Lessons. We're here live in the studio. We're talking all things relationships specific. Specifically, though, toxic relationships. We have got a wonderful relationship counsellor in the studio. Welcome back, Maria. Hello, Sarah. So, Maria, I would like to tell the world, if you're just tuning in, Maria, she helps couples. She helps individuals resolve conflict, overcome trauma, explore their relationships and personal goals, and she tailors interventions. Is that right? That's right. So Maria also helps couples overcome things like infidelity, work through anxiety, depressions and feelings of isolation. Yes, it's very, very difficult to admit that you feel lonely within a relationship, but it's strikingly common. That's a really interesting point. Is that where you feel disconnected on an emotional or physical level, or both, or. It's when people feel invisible within a relationship, when their needs are not being recognized and certainly not being met, and when they don't count in the same way as the other person. Is it that maybe they vocalise a thing or two, but their voice is not being heard? Yes. And it could be that the dynamics in that couple's existence, whether it's jobs or family or anything to do with their backgrounds, really just help that problem along where one of them has a really important job or where one of them is at home with the children. So actually, negotiating equality needs work. Interesting. Very interesting. Because I also came across the idea that it takes two people to have a toxic relationship. It's not one thing or behavior that's happening to another person from one to the other. But it's also the allowance and the acceptance of just taking the love that we think we deserve or not, setting boundaries of, hey, that's not okay with me, and having this slow but sure stacking effect of different labels, different behaviors, the consistent over time. It's like a formula, isn't it? You know, over time, pushing of boundaries. And so let's just say, you know, I was being, as the Internet dubs, gaslighted. It would be me accepting certain behaviors over time and accepting the love that I think that I deserve and allowing for things to happen to me. Is that right? That is right. Because a lot of the time in relationships, these behaviors come up from very normal situations. As you know, the term gaslighting comes from a very, very old film where somebody's husband is actually engaging in criminal activity. And of course, this wife back in those days would have not left her house very much, would have had very little insight into her husband's activities. And whenever she questioned what was happening and why all these strange goings on were so obvious in front of her, she just did not have the voice for it. So it is a lot about really understanding what things have gone too far. And what you said, Sarah, about boundaries is so important because in any relationship, whether it's a friendship, whether it's family relationships, you would not allow somebody to go certain places. You would not allow perhaps somebody to tell you what to do or to tell you how to dress or to tell you how often to go out. And it's very important to be be aware of how what may look like a very loving gesture to begin with as part of a normal relationship can just go that little bit too far and become something that is controlling and definitely not loving. One of the questions I had for you was, Maria, is that is, let's say, for lack of a better term, toxic relationship. Is it all about power and one person being in more power, having more power over another, over the relationships, over outcomes, than the other? And is it always about control? It certainly can be. And when we think, well, why would a person want to exert control over another? Or why would they want to show their power? What we kind of begin to think about is, where does this come from? Why would somebody want to show how strong they are to a person? Why would somebody want to show how potent they are in what they can achieve and how can they change you? And how can they model what they want in a partner through you? And we begin to think of perhaps that person's upbringing, that person's other relationships. Because really, we learn relationships at home when we're growing up. What we witness, what we are part of forms a huge part of the role that we take on in relationships once we're older. The communication we hear, the engagement in which we see. And what kind of effect can that have on us long term? It's like transferable toxic behavior skills, I guess. Well, absolutely. If all you've been shown as you were learning what relationships were, is somebody shouting you down or somebody not letting you express how you feel, or even worse, somebody giving you a label, then it's highly likely that in your adult relationships you will do that. Professionally speaking and listening to you as a professional in this field talk. You, I guess, are always thinking about the why you're thinking about. Why does this come about? Why are a couple communicating in such a way that isn't serving either of them, or maybe it's serving one of them for whatever reason. But if I just quickly play devil's advocate and put myself in the shoes of somebody that is, let's say, being gaslighted or in a toxic relationship, I'm not necessarily going to be thinking about the why because I'm so confused. I'm always thinking about the what. I'm thinking about what is happening to me and trying to dissect whether, did I say something? Did I say that? Did I think that? Did I do that? Was my diary that way? Did I go to that place? And I don't think I would be thinking about the why because I'm so confused with the what. So how does it show itself up other than labels in a relationship where there's this sense of confusion of what on earth is going on? Is that a specific type of toxic behavior and relationship that I'm kind of in my mind referring to? Well, it certainly resonates with what we see in relationships where control has gone overboard. Because, you know, nowadays people are very much in charge of their own lives. They make their own decisions about what they do for a living, what they look like, what their bodies do. And so when somebody is being controlled to excess, that will, over time, change who they are. And a really, really good way to check when you're confused and you're wondering, did I do that? Was I rude? Was I not respectful? Was I not mindful of my partner's needs is to really have a good network around you. It could be your family, it could be your friendships, but they are the ones that can actually say to you, look, I was at that party. We were at that function. I saw that photo on social media. That absolutely doesn't look wrong to me. And if that had happened to me, I would be really upset. So having a sounding board for who we really think we need to check with is really, really important. Because most people hopefully will have a close friend or a really close relative that can give them honest advice and an honest, good mirror image of who they are that they can trust. And that really leads me into, you know, another question that I had. If I was in. Let's say I'm always doing this role playing because I'm trying to think, you know, what are the listeners thinking? What are they interested in knowing about? Can they relate to any, you know, different scenarios and all of that stuff when it comes to this? I guess it's been given, like an ugly, cute term online. But the reality is it's, you know, it's a serious subject and people guess will identify or not with it. And what if I was in that kind of relationship where I'm, you know, questioning this, that and the other. But I don't have the network because I found myself somehow over time and I don't even know how it happened. Isolated, you know, my friends have started to dwindle away. Perhaps maybe I'm spending all of my time with my partner or at least serving our relationship in the best way that I know how. And now I know I'm not connected maybe to my family or to my friends. How does that come about? And what do I do to get connected if I feel disconnected? One important thing that everybody benefits in relationships is showing vulnerability. And by that I mean just truly opening up to others and saying, look, I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing. And you might need to reach out to that friend that he lost a few years ago. You might need to speak to the parent that judged your relationship harshly and say, I think I've lost my way a little bit. Can you help me to find out if this is right for me? Can you look at this with me and join me? And that might entail just really, really reaching out and being as small as you can to let others help you. So, Maria, would it be possible for you to give us a quick fire round of three ways to check in with oneself and how we in a relationship, if something feels a bit askew, definitely check if this is something you would tolerate at work or with your friendships and family. If you wouldn't, then don't. If you can see yourself having changed a lot since the start of this relationship and the person that you used to be, you can't recognize anymore, then there's something there that needs to be looked at and think of where you come from and what your role is in relationships. Am I the fixer? Am I the one that helps everyone? Am I the one that just makes it all okay? Check in with yourself. I think that's really important. And we're really going to delve into that after the break where we talk about those roles, those fix and nurturing roles and all of that stuff because it's really important for us to feel like we identify. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan here on Love Lessons talking to relationship counsellor Maria and and we'll be right back. Welcome to the women's radio station supporting women's well being. Women's radio station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website womensradiostation.com for more information. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. 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For more information on how you can sponsor a show, go to womensradiostation.com Women's radio stations supporting women's well being. Hello and welcome back. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan live Here with Maria, relationship counsellor. And we're here reframing toxic relationships relationships and also helping people get to grips with different terminologies that have been dubbed cute terms by the media and in the world wide web around some really serious, I guess, forms of communication in relationships. So welcome back to Maria. Hello, Sarah. So I wanted to ask you, putting, you know, all this aside for a moment, that feels quite heavy and negative because, you know, it is. It's not healthy or happy, is it? No. So what does a happy, loving, fulfilled relationship look like? A good relationship has to have a degree of equality. No matter how different your paths in life are, there needs to be an awareness of the other person, an awareness of their needs, and a dialogue about how to meet those needs. And it could be that a good relationship also has the job of patching up any difficulties that you have had in your upbringing or in your life to date, really, really nurturing you to become a better, happier, more fulfilled person. So it's where the channels of communication are completely open and flowing, you know, not just freely, but constructively between two partners consciously communicating, definitely. And really having conflict. Conversations that feel like a collaboration where you not only say what's happening to you, but you can see that it's being received, you can see that it's being welcomed, processed and found to be important. We call that mind in mind, when you can actually have the other person's inner state, whatever they're feeling, sad, happy, excited, where you can really hold it for them, make it important. Mind in mind, really interesting. Now, Maria, you specialize in conflict and helping couples overcome conflict in communication or over a trauma that's happened in their relationship, whatever that trauma might be. How does conflict show itself up? How is it defined? And how do you help people overcome conflict? Well, clients might come along and say, you know, communication is completely broken down for us because all we do is over. Little things start to talk and then the argument gets bigger and we begin to shout and we begin to get angry with each other. One of them slams the door, the other one is left depressed and sulking. And that can be a really, really awful situation where people just feel like they have very little hope or very little to hold on to. And that can really be a problem if it just keeps happening over and over again. One thing people say is, we just have the same argument all the time. They can't resolve it. There is no resolution. Because like we were saying just now, there is no capacity to think. Right. I think the dishes in the sink are really Unimportant. But for my partner, who's been at home all day with a baby and hasn't had a cup of tea, me doing them would mean the world. It's really being able to understand what things mean to the other person that gives us that little way into conflict and allows for people to stop and think and stop the fighting. It sounds to me, and what I'm hearing is that it's the inability to put oneself into their partner's shoes, to be able to see and have that mind in mind and take into consideration situation, emotional, physical aspects of whatever it is that they're going through. Is it selfishness that results in conflict? Well, what usually happens isn't that people want to be selfish and mean and unkind. What happens is that they are maybe a little bit overwhelmed with how they're feeling. What's troubling them feels so enormous because it's just the straw that breaks the camelbag. Because it really is that same argument over and over for the millionth time, but over Christmas, when your mother in law is in the room. Pressure cooker time. Exactly. And what happens is that people just can't see outside of that kind of dark mist that they're in. And that is really difficult to resolve. Because if you have two people in that situation, what we have to do is find a space where talking is really, really something that can be nurtured. It could be a neutral space away from the home. It could be with the help of a professional, it could be a set time every week. But it has to be a space where people can say, look, I'm completely overcome with this that happened to us, but I can share it safely and you can do the same. And I'm going to welcome what you bring to me. So it sounds to me like you really help those individually or couples together take a bird's eye view of where they're at. You help them kind of, you know, want to remove themselves and look inwards and be introspective as to where they're at, is that fair to say? Yes. I think I would call it zooming out. If you can think of your relationship and you're in the middle of the fray and you're really annoyed and you really think, all I would need is for this person to do X, Y or Z, just zoom out like a drone coming away and coming back and think, what is this looking like? What am I putting in? Because in a relationship, toxic or otherwise, there are two people and people's contributions really connect. And what I do triggers a reaction in my partner, and my partner will then do something that makes me feel or think something else. And we kind of get into a cycle. And if we keep putting bad things in that cycle, then that's where that kind of chronic arguing just seems to go on forever, never ending well. Earlier on in the show, just before the break, and especially for those of you just tuning in, we've been talking about toxic relationships. How is it defined? What is the media saying about toxic relationships? What cute, ugly terms? Have different behaviors been dubbed? What do they mean? And how do they show themselves up? I'm here with relationship counsellor Maria Hughent, and we have been discussing all things relationships and reframing it, really getting to grips with what gosh, gaslighting is and things that don't feel good within relationships. Now, just before the break, we talked about different styles of communication. Can you talk us through that? Walk us through? In fact, in terms of communication, we kind of adopt the role that we've had, perhaps growing up, perhaps with other people before meeting our partner. And we might kind of think of ourselves as having a certain job to do. It might be that in communicating with a partner, you feel that if they tell you a problem, you have to be the one that fixes it for them because you're their spouse. Or it might be that in communicating with a partner, you feel that you have to be the strong one that puts up and doesn't show any weakness and can really, really tolerate all kinds of drama, all kinds of difficulties, difficulty. And those communication styles are really, really important because once people begin to reflect on what their style is, why do they always have to play that role as if it were in a character play? Then they can reflect on what other alternatives are there. Can I stop being the strong one and also cry? Can I stop being the one that makes it all better? When perhaps something's happened that has no fix? Ultimately, in communication, we don't need somebody to be our yin and yang. We need somebody to really sit alongside with what's happening to someone. Communication is a lot less about saying than it is about listening. Really love that. All about listening. And I guess as human beings, one of the things that we predominantly want is to be heard. Our opinions, our voice, our outlook. Especially in a relationship, a good, healthy relationship sits in a way where two people feel like they're on the same team. They're singing from the same hymn sheet, you know, on the same page. All of that, however you want to term it and dub it, but. But it's that I hear you and you hear me. And not only do I hear you, I action those things to make your world a better place. And you make my world a better place. So if there's somebody listening in. Oh, gosh. And we said something really interesting before. Well, you said it, Maria. Actually, it was all you, not me, where you said it can be slowly and over time. So if you're in a relationship that doesn't feel good, and let's say those labels are on their way to you all of the time, it doesn't change you today, and it might not even change you tomorrow, but then in 15 years time, the idea of how you see yourself completely somehow removed from the person that you were, isn't that right? Yes. And to have change beyond recognition is something that can happen in life, but it should happen for the better. We should grow and we should develop and we shouldn't be shrinking away from who we want to be. And if you notice that change, if you notice that those labels have sort of piled onto you and stopped you feeling that there's any potential for you to really become a little bit better every day, learn new skills, learn new ways of connecting, then there's something that really, really is weighing you down. A space for growth is so important, isn't it? I think what you just said, that one word, shrunk, it hits me to my core every time I hear that. It's a whole onomatopoeia. Like you can feel the shrink when you say shrunk. And I once heard a woman say it on stage about how she felt after a relationship had come to an end. And that really hit a chord with me. I see people who feel shrunk. And after the break, I want us to talk about ways in which we can help unshrink and we can stand back into our power if we feel that we've gone off kilter and that somebody else is in control or we've passed over the power somehow in our relationship. And do you think that's something that you have the tools in your box to share with us? Maria? Definitely. Definitely. Because it's our own responsibility to be that way. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan. We'll be right back after the break. We're here on Love Lessons Live talking toxic relationships. Welcome to women's radio station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on women's Radio station. Hello and welcome to future classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on women's Radio station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being and we're talking all things autism women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Tracey Weedon of Brownhill Insurance Group. We are an award winning family run insurance broker covering a wide range of insurance products ranging from commercial lines to personal household, high net worth and fine art. You can contact us on 0208-658-4334 or visit our website www.brownhillgroup.co.uk for your free no obligation quotation at Brownhills. We've got you covered. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon. I'm a birth doula and mum of three and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experience. Please join me for my brand new show From Tummy to Mummy here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything, fertility, pregnancy, birth and baby related right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover and mental health advocate and you can listen to my show. Get booked here at Women's Radio station daily at 5am and 5pm throughout my shows we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chat to authors, publishers and book enthusiasts, all with a theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch@presentersomensradiostation.com join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@mediamattersforwomen.org you're listening to women's radio stations supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter womensradio Station that's Women's Radio STN or Facebook women's radio station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Hello and welcome back. I am Sarah Louise Ryan. Welcome to Love Lessons Live, if you're just tuning in. And welcome back. If you've just been on an ad break with us, we have Maria Hughent here, who is a relationship counselor in the studio. We've been talking toxic relationships, what they are, how they show themselves up, the things that happen inside of them in terms of conflict, communication styles, different kind of roles that we play, I guess, in relationships. Is that right, Maria? Definitely, yes. And just in the break, we were having a cheeky conversation. As you know, I love to do chit chat, can't shut me up. And we were talking about how to educate and empower people to take ownership and accountability to their relationship and communication styles because inevitably we are in control. We choose, don't we? We make a choice at some point to be in that situation, relationship or situationship, whatever it is. What's your thoughts on that, Maria? Well, you said a little while earlier, Sarah, that, you know, if we can kind of see ourselves in relationships, if we can kind of lift the drone, zoom out and see ourselves, then we begin to understand what role we're taking in that relationship and we might begin to understand whether we like that role or not. And if you in that relationship is not you, who you want to be, then really taking responsibility and being accountable for that and saying, hmm, if I'm really, really responsible in my job or with my family and friendships, why am I being so careless about the things that are said or done to me in an intimate relationship? We really need to own who we are when we're connected to another person and make a really, really crucial choice about who am I going to be moving forward? Do I need to make any changes? Do I need to step away? Is this really something that is going to be who I want to be in 15 or 10 years time? And what if we're in a situation where somehow, even though we do have control over our own lives, you know, nobody else has control other than ourselves. But what if for some reason or another we feel powerless to take control? How can we help those step into their power and realize that they do deserve ultimate happiness and the best relationship yet? How can we help them do that? Well, I think that you said quite rightly that sometimes people's bad relationships have led them to lose contact with friendships or even family. And that's really sad. But there will always be somebody that you know, perhaps through connections that your family has, through Your employment through your social activities that you can trust and who will actually give you an honest opinion when you're saying, have I been a bit withdrawn lately? Do I look a bit sad? Some people will even do so without being asked. So it's really important to think of who are you connected with that can help you understand who you are in that relationship that you have that you're not sure about. And it's really important, in my opinion, to find a way to, to exit any denial stage. If you do somehow have this niggling feeling that you. That something doesn't feel right, but we kind of shove it to one side because we accept what it is that we're given rather than seeking what it is that we deserve. And so often, and I've seen it before and I'm sure I'll see it again, people stay in relationships that aren't making them happy, growing them, serving them, making them feel stronger and more empowered because they have a fear of loneliness. What would you say about that? That is true, Sarah. Nobody wants to be lonely. We are pack animals. Ultimately we are supposed to exist in groups. And of course everybody wants to share that connection, that intimacy of having closeness, not just physical, but emotional. So it's very normal to want that and it's very normal sometimes to think, well, I need to get this somehow. But when that somehow really just begins to shrink you, as you said earlier, when that takes away things that you want to do with your life, with your career, with your friendships, with your social activities, that's when really thinking about is this companionship, is this relationship good value has to come in because loneliness is horrible. But feeling lonely in a relationship is 10 times worse. Yes, absolutely, when you're coupled up. But it doesn't feel like consciously communicating and coupling more. I've got a companion that fills perhaps, for lack of a better word, a void. And it's serving that purpose, perhaps alone. So how can we help those who feel stuck come unstuck and positively communicate with themselves first and foremost, before they even think about communicating with their partner and gaining a greater level of connection. It's really important to think about who you want to be, because no matter what your background is, we all have aspirations, we all have hopes, we all have wishes. And it could be things that are to do with the day to day, like having a really nice friendship with your neighbors and living in a community. It could be to do with your career, it could be to do with anything. But there will be things that are just your own, your own Wishes, your own desires, your own hopes are yours. And if those are not really having a space in your relationship, then it's your responsibility to hear yourself and think. I have to own my happiness. I have to make choices that promote my well being and I have to really take charge of where I want to be in my life. Do you think that, you know, for anyone that's listening in or for anyone that you know of or you know, have come across in your time, do you feel that we are choosing to be in that situation because we don't know anything different? And I guess it's like a comfort zone, despite how uncomfortable it is because we don't know any different, it certainly can be that way. But that's where we have to think of the sort of long term picture. If something's a niggle now, is it really going to go away if I sit it out for another 10 years or is there something that I need to address? Can you give us three practical tips to get clear with ourselves about where we're at in our relationship? How it feels and if it feels good. Is this relationship giving me a nice mirror image of who I am? Does this relationship tell me I'm a good person, that I'm attractive, that I'm valuable, that I'm worth spending time with, that I'm worth investing in? That's really important, really thinking of relationships as a mirror. Another thing is check in with those close to you, have their opinions close to hand. You may not agree, you may not have agreed when they first voiced them, but keep that information to hand because one day it might just match that growing feeling of uncertainty you have about the relationship. And the last one is take ownership. Because wherever you are in life, the most important thing is that you make your own well being and happiness happen. And to come unstuck, you just have to have to get clear on how to feel in control, how to get in control of your own situation and circumstances. And that is ownership, isn't it? And accountability to ourselves. Because you know, we are supposed to be our own best friend. Before we can share our friendship with our lovers or partners, husbands, wives, whoever, we have to be our very own best friend in the first instance. And the most long lasting, most important and most worthwhile relationship people ever have is the one they have with themselves. How do you give yourself a break? How do you forgive yourself if you've gone the wrong way? How do you give yourself a good opportunity to really grow into who you wanted to be? How do you become vulnerable to others? How do you admit you made a mistake and how do you really offer something to the world so that they can take it up and offer you something in return? And so if I was to come to you with my partner or anyone listening in, coming in to see you with their partner because they really want to strengthen the bond, build a deeper connection and communication styles within the relationship, how can they find you first and foremost and and thereafter, what top tips can you give somebody who has been through going through conflict with their partner and they want to resolve it and they want to communicate for that deeper level of love? Well, of course accessing support is really important. And along with my own work in the city through Restore London and Instagram or Restore Relationship Counseling, on my website you can find things like relate who operate a low fee scheme. You can find lots of charities that offer couples work. And what really matters when people are looking to resolve conflict is that rather than pointing the finger and looking at their partner and listing all the bad things their partner did, they take stock, they zoom out and they begin to see what they are doing to promote those behaviors, to perpetuate those arguments that keep happening. Really understand what am I adding to the mix? What can I bring to the table that is new that I haven't done before and that can truly be a game changer in how my partner feels about me? And to leave on a note where we've invited the listeners to tune in to listen about toxic relationships, how can we reframe toxic relationships? What can we say about that terminology to reframe how it's perceived? I think that the way we discussed it earlier, a relationship that makes you shrink versus a relationship that helps you grow and shine is the answer. It doesn't have to turn you into anything extraordinary. It has to be a relationship that you're happy to wake up to any morning and that makes you feel that you're better than the sum of your parts. I have loved having you in the studio today. Thank you so much for joining us, Maria. Thank you, Sarah. It's been great talking to you. I am Sarah Louise Ryan here on Love Lessons talking to the wonderful relationship counsellor Maria Huant. And you can find her over on RestoreLondon on Instagram and Restore relationship Counseling on my website and we've been talking about toxic relationships and reframing. We'll see you next time. Bye for now. Welcome to the women's radio station supporting women's well being. Women's radio station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly Women's well being. 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