Trending With Dr. Pam Spurr – Andy West, Yvie Burnett

Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Pam Spurr, here with you on the men's radio station every fortnight on a Thursday at 2pm with my show repeated on Fridays at 4pm on both the men's and the women's radio station. Now, I want to remind you that you can always follow us on social media, just search for men's radio station, women's radio station. We're on all the platforms. And I've got to say, I really missed doing my show the last six weeks, having just gone through a very major house move. It's great to be back. I'm just hoping my new WI fi system in my new home will hold and hold solid and I'll get through the show. Now, I'm delighted that my first guest is a debut novelist. His novel, the Spirit Engineer is doing out in the autumn. He's a broadcaster and voiceover artist. And on Twitter and Instagram you can find him, J. Westauthor. And I'm delighted that Andy is going to join me right now. Hello, Andy, Hello. You're right. Can you hear me okay? Is your WI fi working still? It's still working. Let's keep everything crossed. We need the power of the Spirit Engineer to make sure it works. Yes. No Gremlins. William Jackson Crawford is floating around at the moment. He doesn't always like me talking about this book, you know, so we'll see how we go. He's from the Victorian period. Right. Because I'm now in a Victorian house. My new home is a Victorian home. So I hope he's here. Well, I mean, not to be too picky, but I think that's kind of the way authors are. He's Edwardian. Late Edwardian. Okay. But he's kind of. He's kind of Edwardian in my research that I did is not a million miles away from Victorian in many ways, because, you know, the posh people had all of the flushing toilets and things, but everyone else was still pretty much left living a Victorian life. Yes, I love it. Now. It's been quite a few months since you joined me. Before we get into the novel, just tell me generally how you've been. Have you found it with things opening up, you know, not such tight lockdowns and all that kind of thing? Well, I mean, you've known me since my big brother days and obviously you're aware since before then I was a journalist and I was going into riots and going to, you know, slums in different parts of the world and covering all sorts of terrible tragedies. And things. So for me, I have to say, when things. As soon as we were allowed to. To go and mix and do things, I've been really gung ho about it. Like, I was the. I recognize the first person on the tube in London. I was the first back to the pub. You know, I've not been the first back to nightclubs because I'm now old. That's what's happened in the last year and a half. I have. I have. I ache. I ache. And if I so much as sniff beer, I put on about a stone in weight. But I've been doing. I've been doing loads of the things that a lot of people I know are saying. I still feel uncomfortable doing that. So I'm like, put me in a room with 300 sweaty people and let's just. Let's just see how this rolls. Which I know is a bit of controversial thing to say, but actually it's. I think everyone has to be free to do what's right for them. And also, as long as you are respectful of the people around you. So, you know, if I'm in. If I'm in a space where, you know, I know that, you know, other people are nervous, even if you don't have to wear a mask. I wear a mask and, you know, wearing a mask on the tube and all that kind of stuff. So I'm just trying to find my way through it. But I do feel as though, like, we need at some point to live with this thing and get our lives back. So it's been a big relief for me to see things opening up again. And as you know, my husband works for a West End theater company. I know. So is Nicholas back? Sort of full on with that. They went back to 100% capacity at nine Axe theaters. I think last. Maybe even Saturday. Just gone, like, really recent. They've been doing 50%, you know, so now they're looking for lots of people because, you know, you have to have, like, seat. No seat. Seat. No seat. Now they're looking for lots of single people with no friends who want to go watch the theater alone to fill in all those gaps. Yeah, see, I got some theater tickets for the end of August, so I'm was kind of wondering how that's all going to pan out. Now I'm a woman after. After your heart, what you're doing. Because I love getting out. And about particular, the lockdown for me has been really intense. We now have a family member shielding due to a certain circumstance. So although, like, I'm Going to see a friend's art exhibition later this afternoon in Soho, where. No, she's kind of planning everybody to be a bit distanced. I have said no to like the out news Global Big Bash Summer bash tonight because that's going to be crowded with like a thousand fabulous people. And I just. I just can't risk me getting something that I hand on to this family member who we see almost every day. So. So, yeah, it's. Everybody's situation is different and like, the fact that you would be respectful of me, like, if we meet up and we were gonna have a drink, you, you know, you wouldn't be breathing right on me because, you know, I've got someone who's shielding, but. But, you know, a lot of people aren't like that. A lot of people are just kind of, I'm free and I'm gonna do exactly what I want. And I think we just need to temper that with. With some respect and kindness to others. Yeah, it's like, you know, if you're not particularly scared of heights, but you had a best friend who was very afraid of heights, then you wouldn't take them to the top of a cliff or, you know, take them climbing up a massive fireman's ladder, would you? You would, you know, you would respect the fact that they're very nervous and uncomfortable about something. And I think, I think that scenario I've painted kind of works because, you know, being scared of heights is sensible because you can fall and hurt yourself. Right. So I think it work. But, you know, if you're. If you're aware that someone you're with or someone you really care for, or in fact, someone you've never met before in your life and it's just sitting opposite on the train, is nervous or is going to feel uncertain, then I don't think it costs very much to be thoughtful towards them. Right, exactly. Now, I've got to say though, if you had a fear of heights, I'd be taking you straight up to Windows on the World up at the top of the Hilton for drinks, and I'd force your little face against the window to look out 22 floors above. I tell you, I am scared of heights, but I am scared of heights. But if you're offering that lunch, I'm there. You can squeeze whatever you like of me against the window. I don't mind. I'll do anything for champagne. You know me. Oh, darling, I love it. I didn't realize you had some acrophobia, though. So, yeah, we'll have to work on the acrophobia, we'll go somewhere high together. I'll teach you all the techniques. Is that the term? Is that the term for. I thought it was vertigo, but it's. Acrophobia is the proper term. Acrophobia, as in like an acrobat being up high? Acrophobia, yeah. Okay. Obviously it dates back to Roman or Greek words, you know, for acrobat or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So now when you join me quite a few months ago on here, we talked about where you were with the novel at that point. Now you are looming with publication date. So tell me what's happening. Well, I mean we're still two months away from publication, which is the 7th of October, but it feels so present and so current and immediate right now because there's so much happening. The book covers just had sign off it as as of today is now available on NetGalley which if people aren't aware of this. I wasn't. Is a website where people who review books can request to read it early for free and they get a free copy before it's published. So it's up on NetGalley as of today. I bought a copy. I should have waited for that. I mean, I've ordered. Your copy is going to be so much nicer, Pam. It's going to have lots of foil on the front and my signature inside it. And if you were. If you were that. If you were that basic, then I wouldn't have signed your book. That's. That's the way it goes. But no, that's just happened. I've. I mean, exclusive. I've never actually said this an interview before, but I can reveal that I've got. Derren Brown is the quote on the front. And yeah, it's amazing. I don't think you mind me saying I went for lunch with Darren Brown three weeks ago at his house and it was very surreal. I'm a mega fan. I could have just. I could have just. You could have just turned up halfway through and said, I just knew you would be here. I just sensed the ether. And Joe and also Jodie Whittaker is quoted in the book as, well, Doctor who, of course I know who Jodie Whitaker is. Well, not everyone minds, so it's very exciting. Anyway, it is. Urban angel has just said. That sounds wonderful. I would love to review it. So where do people potentially get to get to review it? Net. Urban angel, if you are on NetGalley and it's free to join, you can set yourself up in two minutes. I did earlier and I've requested a copy myself. You can just go on there, go online and I think you state your reviewer and then they will choose. They don't give it to everyone, but the publisher will choose people who gets the free copies to review. And then anyway, even if you don't, you can pre order it and you will be getting on the 7th of October and then you can review it and give it five stars. I mean you can give it five stars anytime you like. That's how generous I am. I'm going to be counting out the stars as I do it. Yes. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It has to be. And you know my friend Ryan who's got a book coming out called Let that Be A Lesson about his time as a head teacher and he was a producer on the Jeremy vine show, in fact, still is. He got a message from his mum this morning saying, I'm so sorry, Ryan, I've messed up. I've accidentally given you four stars and I don't know how to undo it. So it happens so easily, doesn't it? When people give. People give you a bad. And then you just say, well, delete it then. I don't know how. And it just stays there forever. So do take great care. Yes, when you're choosing those stars, it matters. It really matters. You know, I didn't realize how much this stuff actually has an impact, you know, it's quite scary. So, publication October 7th. Have you finished all the edits and all that kind of thing? Because budding novelists would want to hear about this process. Oh my gosh. Well, so I wrote the first manuscript as 160,000 words. Then I had to cut it to 120,000 words. Then the publisher that was going to have it didn't have it. So I went to another publisher and they got it and they wanted it to be 90,000 words. And then I had to rewrite the whole kind of thing basically. And then I rewrote the ending again and then I went through another edit and another edit and then historical accuracy edit and then a proof edit and then a copy edit and then finally a kind of a final, final read through edit. So I must have, I mean, including my own edits because I'm very slow. Pam, I think we spoke about this last time actually is the fact that I'm very slow. I write a sentence and then I go over it 10 times. I must have edited every single word in that book at least 100 times. And I'm not Exaggerating. It's such a phenomenal amount of work and it's just really lucky that I love it so much because by the end I was going quite mad. And I just cannot read that book again. I'll have to leave it five years. I'm done with it. But people who are reading it for the first time are. What's it say on the book? Thrilled. Excited. My head span. I was haunted in my nightmares. And it's. It's getting rave reviews. So I'm very, very relieved. Oh, I'm so excited. You have certainly done your bst, your blood, Sweat and tears, you know, as we say in America, bst. Wow. You have put it all into that book. I don't want you to reveal the ending, which you have changed, but tell us a little bit about the story, William, and the background of why it's called the Spirit Engineer. It's called the Spirit Engineer because it's based on an engineer in Edwardian Belfast called William Jackson Crawford. It's a true story. Who investigated a spiritual medium called Kathleen Gollagho, who was 16 at the time. This was in 1914. By 1920, he published three books about his experiments carried out on Kathleen, and they'd both risen to worldwide fame. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Harry Houdini the magician were aware of them and had met them. And then in 1920, in very mysterious circumstances, William Jackson Crawford takes his own life. And for Harry Houdini, who was a skeptic of the time, it was because he had found out that Kathleen had been tricking him for six years. So Arthur Conan Doyle, who was one of the world's, you know, greatest spiritualist believers and exponents, said, no, no, no. He finally proved that the afterlife exists and he just wanted to be there. What a romantic take on something as tragic as suicide. I mean, it's the nicer option of the two. I will leave the reader to come to their own conclusions once they finish the book. Now, tell me, for someone who. I'm quite skeptical. I always try and keep an open mind, but I am quite skeptical. Is this a book for skeptics or is it really only a book for believers? It is. I've been very, very careful to make sure that the book gives space for the reader to come with their own conclusions. So actually, it is a book for everyone. I'm not just saying that it doesn't turn off. If you believe in spirits and you believe in ghosts. I don't, but I would love to see one, then it works for you. If you're a skeptic like me and you, Pam, then there's room for that too. What I will say is that it's not one of those books. Don't you hate those books where you spend like 300 pages reading the story and then it goes at the end and then that's the end? Yes, I do. What's when someone just gives up? Well, they just go, I don't know what. Like the author's just gone. I don't know what happened. Like, it's so frustrating. They say, oh, maybe you get to decide. Or it's a mystery. No, that's just you haven't bothered to tie it all up and finish the book. Book like this book, trust me, has twist and twist and twist at the end. It's more twisty than a piece of string and everything. Like a piece of string is very neatly tied up at the end. You are not left wanting, I guarantee. Now, obviously, with all the edits and the historical research, I remember you going over to Ireland and different places for the cause of research. Do you feel you just know him inside and out? Can you ever know someone from back in history? How do you feel? What do you feel about William? Well, you'll know from my romantic past that I quite like my men dark haired, curly haired, and mad as a box of frogs. So by the end of let's forget him. No offense to my current husband. I say my current husband like I'm gonna have future husbands, but no offense to my husband, but my previous ones, of which there are many, many, many, I would say at least 70% of them were clinically insane. So I found, while I was writing the book, actually, I found myself actually finding my lead character more and more attractive the more challenged, let's say, he becomes. There's a real. The trick, I think, with a really gripping novel, I think, is when you sense that the character is changing and is growing through the. Through the novel. And for me, this book was quite personal in the sense that it's about the guy who feels like he's not really part of society, he's not respected. And then through the book, his journey and his determination to be taken seriously because the men in his work and the women in his life aren't doing that actually starts to have a really interesting and, let's say, complicated impact on him as a person. And I know, you know, through my career in my 20s and, you know, my early 30s, I kind of went on a journey like that myself where I kind of. I kind of Lost a grip a little bit on. On who I was and what I wanted in my life and what mattered to me because I was so desperate for success or what it was I was trying to pursue. Now, it's interesting that you say how his character grows. I love that when that happens in a novel because we as people are always changing and growing. And when you can sense that in a book. Those are the kind of books where I don't want to put them down. I get very sad when they end. Like William Boyle, any human heart comes to mind. I'm sure I've mentioned that book to you before. You just don't want it to end because you're like this. There's been so much growth or the World According to Garp, you know, that's another old classic, you know, where, again, you just don't want to put it down. And so I'm really looking forward to that aspect of this. Yeah, I think you like it. And I think. I think one of the difficult things for me as a guy writing books is there's such a focus right now on men writing women badly or men just writing actually, you know, because I think we've had it our own way for so long that being a new debut author who is a man is almost a controversial thing to be. And so I was very aware of that when I was writing the female characters, particularly Kathleen, the young spiritual medium. You know, I thought, she's got to be well rounded and she's got to. She's got to feel real to the female reader. Otherwise. Otherwise I'm dead in the water, frankly. And my solution to that, actually, was because she was a spiritual medium, was kind of not to write her as a character in the way that they normally do. She's quite different depending what scene or what chapter or what circumstance she's in. And you will understand professionally why I felt that worked because a, she's a spiritual medium and it's kind of her job to be mercurial. But also because in real life, I'm a very different person if I'm standing in the football stands, to. If I'm at a gay club at 2 o' clock in the morning, to if I'm in an office working during the daytime, I. I'm a very, very different character. And so I thought, actually, how interesting to allow this character to morph into what she needs to be in each scene. But don't we all have many social faces? You know, I'm a total goofball with my family. I hope I'M not a total goofball when I'm out and about. But, you know, that goofy side, which I probably am very careful about outdoors. And I. And I. And I think, yeah, we all have those facets and a good writer will pick up on those. So that makes total sense to me because I know you're going to be a good writer. I just know you and your qualities, that it's going to work, you know, and I haven't read it yet. Well, that's lovely, but, you know, I thank you very much and I hope I live up to those expectations. Personally. I agree. I am actually a good writer. I'm not going to be English and humble about it. I'm a bloody good writer. And sorry for swearing, but there are things I'm not good at. But I think in this world you have to say, when you're good at something, say you're good at it. I'm a terrible footballer. I'm a terrible singer, very bad dancer. No fashion sense. But writing, yeah, I'm good at that. And I'm not going to apologize for it. But you make the point absolutely right. You know, when we meet up for a cocktail or something, you know, you're a woman of great poise and class, and I can imagine then you probably are running around with, like, swing ball or something at home, with gay abandon. So. But that's exactly it. If I was to write you as a character, you'd have to be the person you are in the. You know, in the cocktail bar, in every situation. Right. That's apparently what you do in novels. And I just don't think that's how people are. Yeah, no, I love that. Now, what about. Did you. Do you think they ever had a relationship, her being this young? You know, I mean, do you think there was anything there historically, when you were researching this, did you come across any hint or flavor that there was something going on between them? I was tempted to write into the book that there was an actual romance. You'll have to read the book to see how that manifests itself. But in real life, no, I don't think so. I think William was very, very socially awkward. In fact, I personally believe he was. He was autistic. And quite far along the spectrum. He was very. Yeah, yeah. He. If you look at his behaviors, his letters, the way people, his contemporaries spoke about him, they. I mean, Houdini met him and said he was mad, which was a not very nice way of talking about it. But his family and his contemporaries all spoke about him. And Remembered him as being a very socially awkward guy, but with a fierce intelligence and an absolute determination to repeat the same minutiae in his experiments over and over and over and over and over again hundreds and hundreds of times. Like the weighing scale experiments, there's hundreds and hundreds of graphs and charts and all sorts of things about it. So he was quite obsessional. Yes, he was. He was an obsessive. And he was also. But he was also very credulous. He. My personal belief is, and certainly his contemporaries say he was not very good at seeing when people were being dishonest to him. And so, you know, my rudimentary understanding of certain characteristics that might imply that someone is, you know, is neurodivergent. I think there's a good case for that. And, of course, in those days, there was no understanding. You were seen as, oh, he's a bit funny, or he's a bit awkward, or he has funny moods, or, you know, whatever it might be. So that's been fascinating for me. But, no, I don't think they had a relationship, but I think there was. I think his behavior today would be seen as certainly wildly inappropriate in those days. Maybe not. But he does write about, you know, feeling her breast while the ectoplasm arrives to see whether it's coming out of there or, you know, and the ectoplasm is not appearing from her belly button. Put it that way. Okay. Wow. I'm really relishing this interview. That sounds fascinating, I've got to say. Urban angel has said she's requested the book. She signed up. If my requests fail, I'll buy it. Regardless, wishing you the best with the book. I hope her request doesn't fail because I know she reviews a lot of things, so hopefully the publisher will see that when they see her request. Well, if Urban angel, if you're still watching, if you're on Instagram and you're not already. We're not already following each other. Do follow me on Instagram. We can DM and I might be able to put in a good word. I don't know if I'm allowed to do that as an author, so I can't promise, but do follow me on Instagram. It's AJ west, author. Exactly. AJ West, Author. And am I supposed to call you AJ when I see you or when I talk to you? Because I love that AJ West. No, not at all. But I just wonder what you prefer, because I'm so used to calling you Andy. Of course I. I'm leaving Andy behind. I feel like Andy Was really good fun up to my mid-30s. And then actually, I'm kind of done with that. So it feels to me like a really good opportunity to move into something else. Unfortunately, I'm cursed with a really horrid name that I can't pronounce. So I could be Andrew, but as you can see, I can't pronounce a drip bit. So I'm gonna say AJ is the future for me. So if you don't mind calling me aj, then I would love to. But you knew before. Yeah, I know. I just. I just wasn't sure. Yeah. If you were proceeding that way. So you are AJ from now on. Now, one thing I saw you recently on social media saying, and I can't remember if I commented back, something about you did not regret Big Brother. That comes in the old Andy's thing. And. And I. It was such a mixed bag for you and. But I'm glad to see that you actually now, looking back, say you didn't regret it because of course, I know a lot of ex housemates, many of whom bitterly regret it. So tell me about that, how you feel about that Big Brother experience. What was it, five, six summers ago? Seven summers ago? It was 2000. Don't age me, Pam. It was 2016, so it was. Yeah, five years ago. It was just, I think, with some. I think July the twentieth was my last day in there. It was. The final was July 20th. I saw someone else tweeting about it and tagged me in saying memories or something. Yeah. So, yeah, no, okay, five years ago. But no, I look back at it as something extraordinary that I feel very lucky and honored to have been able to do. Like you go through Big Brother and you do that program on the shoulders of so many hundreds of thousands of people who would have liked to have done it. That for me to say, oh, I didn't like it and I wish I hadn't done it. It's kind of naive and a bit churlish, I think, because you don't go on big brother in 2016, as I did, not knowing what it is. I mean, you know, if you go on Big Brother and you think this is going to be amazing, and you know how I feel about people who say they've been edited badly. I've got no time for it. You know, if you look, if you came across badly on Big Brother, as far as I'm concerned, you're probably an idiot. So, you know, if you're a fundamentally nice person for eight weeks, they can't edit you to look Bad. They just can't do it. So sorry if you have voted out probably your own turgid, poisonous personality that did it. But this is how I make friends. This is why I was popular in Big Brother, right? So I really, really appreciate it because you know what? It really taught me actually more than else, actually I would say in my entire life, it gave me an opportunity to properly road test myself as a human being and my principles and my judgment of other people and who I like and don't like. Where else do you get filmed 24 hours a day and get to come out with the other end of that experience and actually be able to appraise was I right about the other people, Was I right about myself? Did I do the right thing? And I can do that. I can look back to those eight weeks and say I made a couple of missteps. You know, I wasn't always right. But fundamentally I'm proud of who I was in that house and the people I liked deserve to be. And the people I didn't like deserve to be. And I. And that now makes me really confident if I like someone when I meet them at a party or go for dinner or they're a friend of a friend, I know I can be really, really confident about that judgment that I've made. Yeah, it's an excellent learning. It's experience for you. I think a lot of people maybe who went through that process weren't emotionally ready to discover things about themselves, but you definitely were. And that's just kind of potluck with who goes in there and who's ready to embrace the ups and the downs and what it says about them and what it says about their relationships with other people. We're almost out of time and I was going to run a couple of trending topics past you, but it's almost too late for that. Let me ask you for. Do you feel that everyone has a book inside them now that you are near the end of this journey with your baby about to be published? No. Everyone has a book. I don't think so. Since I've been through this process, I've had a couple of people send me books because they say they have a book inside them and they've not been a great read. You know, you can't. But writing a book is an extra. You know, this, writing a book is an extremely special and amazing thing to do. But I do think it takes, I do think it takes some natural ability and storytelling talent to be able to do it. And I, you know, I Just as, just as, you know, not everyone has a Premiership footballer in them. Not everyone has an amazing painting in them, not everyone has an amazing song in them. Not everyone has amazing cake in them. You know, we are all good at things. So I don't think it's, I don't think it's too obnoxious to say no to that. What I would say is that I think writing is good for everyone. And if you, you know, we suffer with so much stress and anxiety and worries and things these days. I do think that everyone benefits from writing down how they feel. And you don't know that. You don't know you have a book in you actually until you've tried. So. So if you think you might 100% definitely go for it and you might even surprise yourself, I think you've given me far more credit than is due. Because writing a self help book is very different to writing a novel. It's a much more straightforward process. Thank you for coming. I think it's different now. We're just out of time. Urban angel says she's now following you on Instagram. So that's great. I just. One piece of advice. For someone who is in the middle of writing and they haven't got a publisher yet or what, what is a critical thing that they should be thinking of? Well, you know, it's really hard if you didn't go to a really posh school or you don't have a friend who works for a publishing company, or, you know, you're not a very famous person on television or something. It's, it's, it can feel like you really are in the wilderness. And finding an agent can be very difficult. I got published without an agent and that took a lot of patience and a lot of fortitude and a lot of determination to do it. The only thing I would say to people if you're halfway through writing is get all of the way through writing. And then if you can't get an agent first, but you can manage somehow to scrape it together to get a professional editor, that I think would be a very, very, very wise decision. Because the difference between my first manuscript and the manuscript I finished with working with an editor was just two different planets. So to get published these days, there's so much competition. It's got to be polished, it's got to be good. And an editor is going to be worth their time. Thank you. Thank you so much, AJ and let me just flag up that people can find you on Twitter and Instagram. Jwestauthor Been A pleasure. See you soon, darling. Lots of love. See you soon. Bye bye, bye bye. Now I have my second guest coming up. She's a renowned vocal coach and TV personality. You can find her at her website, eviebrennette.com and on social media, she's at Evie Burnett with two T's on them, that is. And she should be joining me now. Here I am. Hello. Hello, darling. Hi, Pam, how are you? I'm really well. Really, really well. Enjoying summer weather. I know I've tried to get you on a couple of times and you've been busy or whatever and then I gave you the wrong date for today. So I'm glad we're actually here together now. We've managed, we've managed. So before we get into what we were we're going to be talking about, which was when I was emailing you about ideas and coming on, I said we'd move, been through this major house move. And you said, I've just written a column about people making, you know, big changes in their life and what the pandemic has done. And we said, yes, let's talk about that. But before we do that, I just want to know if you're working with any artists. Last time we spoke, so many tours have been canceled with the artists you work with with for their. As their singing coach. Has anything materialized now for, for the autumn? Will you be doing any tours or not tours as such? I think, you know, it's been very odd. I think a lot of the major artists have really delayed things sensibly probably till 2022, because I think their, their record companies and their management realized that if they sort of half heartedly said, well, we think 21 and then they had to cancel it again, it was going to be different. So I think there's a lot of things hopefully will happen next year, but there's not so many this year. And it's just bits and pieces. There's a lot of people and strangely enough who've done stuff during lockdown who maybe haven't actually performed much. You know, I was working with these two incredible young rappers the other day called A1 and J1. And of course I, you know, being my age, I didn't actually know who they were and I met them and they were the most spectacular young men who have got incredible characters and really fabulous songs. And so I worked with them and they had just sort of got together, you know, during lockdown and they hadn't done any, done any performance. So we were starting to do performance. It is so strange. It was like the other way around because normally people will have performed for years and then they'll make it big. These guys hadn't performed at all and, you know, we're number two in the charts with their song called Latest Trends. Funnily enough, it should be a themed tune for your show. And so I was working with them. So things are kind of back to front and there's a few artists who have just worked away during lockdown, made their music and somehow got some sort of deal and are now having to learn how to perform. So it is a bit upside down, but that's just the way of the world. And I think it's a very interesting thing to just accept the changes and accept that everything's different and just see, see what happens in the charts, see what happens in the music business, but it's. It's not been smooth going at all. And who knows if the big artists will come back in the same way and at the same level that they were when they left. Are the fans still going to be there for them? I don't know. Who knows? I know it's really, you know, having a family. Three members of my family work in the music business. Yeah. And, yeah, it's trying, testing times and everybody's having to work really hard and see what direction they can move in successfully. Tell me what it's like as a vocal coach, when you take on someone, say that you maybe don't like their style of singing, but they have a good voice, maybe they've got signed to a label or something, how do you rise above that? I mean, people often ask me, as a psychologist and coach, what if you suddenly get a client and you just don't click or you don't. You actually don't take to them. Yeah. And I think when you're working intensely in any sort of coaching, my kind of coaching, psychological coaching, yours vocal coaching, what happens with you? How do you handle it when you. When you've been asked by a label to work with someone and. And maybe as I say, you don't really like their style of singing, but you have to work around it. Can you put those personal taste issues aside? Definitely. I can put the taste issues aside in that, you know, often I'll be working in, you know, jazz, rock, rap, classical, and of course I can't like them all and I can't like every song, but I think you've got to sort of judge it on how good it is in its genre, you know what I mean? So I really don't like rock music particularly terribly admission. But I don't. I'm a rock chicken heart. I know you are, but I don't. And so it's not my thing. But if someone is a good rock singer and I can help them to not wreck their voice because obviously that's probably the hardest genre for looking after your voice, then I'll enjoy it and I'll see that their music is good for people like you who like their music, but I don't have to like it myself. So it's a. It's just about the standard that I'm getting them to. But it's more difficult if you don't like the person. Now that's when it's hard. If someone is a diva or someone hasn't got respect for me or just for people, I really don't like that. You know, I think that. That often I'm lucky that I meet people on the way up so they're being nice and so I. Then when they are up there, I remind them, I've known you a long time, don't start being a diva with me. You know what I mean? So that is fine. And they. You've actually done that? No, I've done it many times, you know, but then it's harder when I'm brought in at a later stage of someone's career and they're already a diva, then do I shut them down. But I don't know. There has been a bit of. There's always been that respect and it's very rare that I come across someone who's not respectful. Maybe it's because I'm usually older, you know, normally people are not older than me. I'm usually the one that's older than them. So maybe there's a respect just because I'm an older woman, but I don't know, it's. It's been rare. But I've had. I've had one or two. I did have one girl who turned up, she'd been told by a record company to come. She was obviously going to be something big and they had sent her. She came in, she had a hangover, she felt sick. She had been drinking the night before, she hadn't had anything to eat, she couldn't be bothered. And I just said, you know, do you actually want to be here? And she was quite, you know. And I said, can you just go? Because you can come back another day when you've not got a hangover. And I think I was probably quite rude to her because I Felt she was very disrespectful. And. And I think she did come back and she realized, oh, okay, then I've just got it. There's got to be a mutual thing. So that's. That was rare. So if I. If I, you know, I can make it work. I've worked with anxiety with some, you know, musical performance and thankfully not come across any with the diva mentality. And. And the singers in, say, the bands I've worked with often take their voices really seriously and don't drink alcohol before, you know, voice lesson or coaching or before going on stage, you know, because alcohol, you know, dehydrates. Yes. And. Yeah. And then, you know, someone's really serious about looking after their voice when they're doing these things, they're taking voice. Learned quite a bit about that, you know, when I've done the anxiety. So it's really interesting that, you know, obviously on the whole, you've had people who take their voice seriously and wouldn't booze the night before a coaching session, you know, but the fact that you've had to handle that, and I'm sure you've done it fantastically. I don't know. I mean, it's all right to have a drink. I'm making it sound like you can't have a drink. Of course you can have a drink the night before a coaching session, but not before a gig and not. And not to the extent that you can't sing otherwise, there's no point in coming to your coaching session. But, you know, I feel. And you know more about this than me, but I feel with singers and anxiety that alcohol is not a good thing anyway, because my singers who are really anxious, if they've been out the night before and they've had a lot to drink, then their anxiety is worse if they've got a performance. And so I think you've got to be on a level. I think if we drink, we know ourselves, we're tired the next day, and our anxiety and our mood goes like this. And if you've got to be on a level to be performing. So if you're in the middle of a big set of gigs, you've got to limit it because your anxiety will be worse if you've been on a binge, you know, it's kind of. Absolutely. People don't realize that they think alcohol will calm them down. Unfortunately, as a depressant. Well, a. Not only does your body do the rebound effect where it wants to fight the fact that your body's been depressed, your Physiology, but also that just your mood. When you get a poor quality sleep after a lot of booze, your mood, if you're an anxious person is going to be far worse. Yeah. You're gonna be far more fragile. So yeah, that's a key part of dealing with anxiety. Which reminds me, before we get onto our main topic, you were considering doing a counseling course. Now I know Gordon, your husband did take one up, but you haven't yet. He took one up and I considering it and I'm still. You see, every time I talk to you, I know that counseling is so much part of what I do. Not official counseling because I'm not qualified to counsel. But I have learned over the years to know what to say to help my singers because they have this singer psyche, this singer's anxiety, which I see over and over again. It's like they're all the same person. It's like every time someone comes in, it's as if they think that I've never seen this before and I've seen it in most of my singers, you know, because we are over anxious as performers because we've got to bear our soul. So no, I should and I still haven't. And you see, procrastination is a great thing and having the idea is. And it's still there, but it's actually going ahead and doing the course. And because I was thinking of all that during lockdown when I wasn't that busy and then things sort of picked up so I ended up doing my real job and I haven't done the counselling. Yeah, you haven't had time. Fair enough. But I've still been counseling unofficially. Yeah. If you ever decide to officially counsel, I'd love to have you back on say midway through your course. Just because a lot of people are interested in taking counseling courses. It'd be nice to sort of catch someone who's just at the beginning and then check in with them a bit. Yeah. Just so people know the sort of growing experience that it provides. So that would be a lot of fun. If I do get my willpower together and get my myself on it. That would be great. Yeah, I love that. Now back to what we were originally talk about. So when I said to you about the big move and how we wanted to be near one. Near one branch of the family. Yeah. And you said how this had cropped up, you know, you know, people you knew and you'd written a column about the changes people were making or. Oh, I'm not quite sure exactly the angle of Your column. But tell me what. What. What sort of your thoughts were when. When we. Well, when we were discussing that, you know, about you moving house and your priorities at your stage of life. In my stage of life. And I really. I had been thinking about that a lot because I think that during lockdown, our priorities have all changed or a lot of us have realized what's important in life and that maybe we'd be. I mean, for me, it was the first time I had been at home for two weeks in a row for years. You know, I just hadn't been. And so I loved it. Now I didn't feel, oh, my goodness, I'm ready to retire, because I missed my job and I was too young to retire, whatever. But. But there was certainly lockdown made me realize how wonderful it was to enjoy the simple things in life and that I didn't want to be out at restaurants or doing this. Of course, I wasn't earning money anyway, so. So we had to simplify our life at that point. But I loved simplifying my life. I loved the things that everyone was doing. Baking banana bread and doing our garden and opening the doors and just enjoying life. So that lockdown has done it. But also, I think during. In our lifetime, we go through stages where things are less important than they used to be. You know, I think that when you're younger. Well, I was so into, you know, I had to always look. Look good. And I would be very upset if. I've never done anything. I've never, ever had a thing done, not even Botox. But I always wanted to have my makeup on and my hair done and my outfit and the shoes to match. And I would always be constantly buying things and stuff, and now I just want to get rid of stuff. I would rather have what they call a capsule wardrobe. And, you know, you have a pair of trousers that goes with this top, this top and this top. And you have two jackets, and you have. Now, I haven't got that. I've got but 10 wardrobes packed full of stuff, and it's stuff I don't wear, and it's stuff that I don't need. But I think, is it because we've got older that we don't need the stuff? And I mean, you've moved house, so how much stuff have you got rid of? No, I mean, my gosh, you have. This resonates with my life because we've been in the same very happy home for 21 years. In fact, all the family, when we announced two months ago, we're putting the house on the market and we're moving to this other part of London. Of course, they understood about wanting to be nearer one part of the family, but they were like, we thought, you're gonna be there forever. You know, you love that home. You did. But what we hadn't been doing was we'd just been accumulating as usual. And it was quite shocking how many trips to charity shops are just like, you, tons of dresses that I just never wear or, you know, things from, you know, 20 years ago when I was going out all the time. Yeah, absolutely. And so I have handbags and it was just quite shocking how much had to be given away. And I was just like, no, this is not how I want to live. And now we are determined in our new home, where we're in the process of still unpacking and things, because we know we've had to carry on working in between unpacking. And I've tried to finish a painting that I had commissioned and it's just like, I don't want to be there again. I don't want to be in that situation. Like, when I die, I don't want the kids to have to sort through tons of stuff, you know, that I've been using for years. And, Yeah, I think it is about life stages, too. And the pandemic, for many people have kind of hastened decisions. And certainly our decision to move was all about the pandemic. The side of the family we're always seeing, the car trips, whatever, didn't want to do it anymore, and we were happy to do something new. And lifestyle living in a Victorian house is amazing. You know, we've got all these period features and. Yeah, so that's exciting, too, that I care more. More about. Wow. I just want to have a really cool place to live rather than just collecting a load of stuff in it. Yeah. No, and I think maybe it's a generational thing because my kids don't want the stuff. You know, I have got tea sets from every. Every auntie, every granny, every. I have got so many tea sets and plates and keepsakes and I've got my lofts full of them. You know, my house is full of them and I want them because I don't. I didn't want to give them up. Whereas I said to my children, would you like some of these? No, we don't want the stuff and they don't want it when I die. So really, it's about, as you say, getting rid of it now. And maybe we as our, our age group, we are more hoarders, maybe because we didn't have things and we wanted to, you know, upcycle things. Whereas now, I don't know, people just buy young kids that move into a house, they don't want the old hand me down sofa. Yeah. They would rather buy a cheap sofa because it's new than a very good hand me down one. So I think people have changed from our generation. We would have been very happy to have a hand me down space. So true. My children are the same as yours. About this issue of all these tea sets I was given from my auntie and my mum and, you know, you know, and other people like that, you know, they have no interest in it, even though I'm like, oh, but it's such pretty China. But you know that if you can. I don't know, I know everyone's not on video, but if you see, funnily enough, I've just had my friend around and we had tea in a china teapot and cups. And it's not because I was talking about the. With you today, that is just what we do. Because I like that, you know, So I think that it's nice, you know, things like that, but you don't need 10 T6. No. Tell me about the column you wrote. Was it kind of pegged on this whole idea or. Yes, I write a column every week for the Press and Journal. Yl, your Life magazine, which is the Press and Journal, is a Scottish paper for those of you who don't know. And it's, it's. It's got a huge readership because the whole of Scotland and all my life growing up, it's a daily paper and on Saturday I do a column. So I just talk about what I've been doing, really. And I had been in. I went up to Aberdeen for the day and I had seen Mary Beard. You know Mary Beard, the historian? Yes, yes, yes, the historian, of course, yes. I had seen her in the airport lounge and. And years ago, I used to think, why does that woman not dye her hair or have it cut or put on some makeup? And I saw her in this airport lounge and I thought she looked incredible. She was just her. She had her grey long hair. She was dressed in really casual hair style of clothes and she looked great. And in this airport lounge, because you know what airport lounges are like, there's a lot of people trying to look good for their flat. There were probably 10 women, all with the same handbag draped over their arm and the same face. The same hairstyle, the same trendy shoes. And I thought, they're all cardboard cutouts of each other. Mary Beard looks the best. And I realized how I had changed my opinion. And I had realized that the things that I used to think, I would have gone in there 10 years ago and thought all these women looked great, and Mary Beard should be like that. This time I went in and thought, no, Mary Beard's individual, confident, and she is herself. And I think as we get older, we probably get more confidence not to have to follow the pack. Yeah, no, no, I absolutely agree with you on that. That was sort of where my column was coming from this week, about getting older and having the confidence just to be ourselves and not have to try and just to maybe age gracefully. I'm not giving up yet, but I'm still dying. I plan to age a little bit disgracefully, a little bit. Like, why worry so much about, you know, about. So I was kind of inspired by Mary Beard this week. So. So getting back to the whole thing about, like, with your children, you know, your children are grown. You know, I think they're a bit younger than my children, but they're grown. Do you ever see, like, with life stages and maybe the pandemic, have you seen them be more interested in, like, changing their life for a positive way, or has it kind of missed their age group? It's been very interesting because it's been very different for the two of them. My daughter, you know, ended up having a sort of lockdown relationship, which was. It is no more. Because I think everyone who had a new relationship in the pandemic, the problem was you fast forwarded. You ended up deciding, we live together or we don't see each other. Yeah. So I think a lot of relationships in the pandemic sort of fell by the wayside because they were so fast forwarded into a place that they would have never normally got to. So that for her was very difficult. And I think she's come out older and wiser in the pandemic. Whereas my son, you know, he didn't really have any relationships during the pandemic because he had the other thing where he wasn't meeting anyone. So it has been really odd for young people. I feel really sorry for them because the normal meeting of people casually in there. So either you've got this crazy relationship that just has to be there so quickly, or you just don't meet people at all. And I think that for. For the rest of us who are a bit older and we. We have our Lives more settled. It was a lot easier. And I'm not saying that everyone who has a relationship is young, but a lot of young people would have found that hard. Oh, you're absolutely right about. If you, you know, for people who are settled in, like a relationship, particularly, or settled in a good work space where their manager was on top of. Of everything and furlough or whatever, they worked remotely or whatever, it's been so much easier because I do a lot of date coaching. So I had a lot more singles than usual coming through my website saying, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to date. What can I do, you know? Or do I start living with this person who, you know, say last March when lockdown was being threatened. How do you feel as a mum? What you see, I always still struggle with this. I always. I think I'm so bossy. I always like to. I gotta stop myself from piping up when my kids are going through a dilemma, you know, because they're grown and they need to learn their own mistakes. But it's hard. Did you find it hard to say, hold back with your daughter and maybe give her advice about that or maybe she asked for your advice. It's different for you because it's what you do. And I would assume that there's a slight bit more respect of. You actually do know, because that's what you do as a job. Job. It's not what I do, it's a job. And also you can have two kids who are totally different, which just shows you that it. That it's nature, not nurture, because I have the opposites. I have my son listen to everything I say and he would take my advice. But I know if I say to my daughter, put on a pink dress, she'll wear a green one, you know, so I cannot. I have a daughter who. She has tattoos and she'll, you know, she's. She's so different from me. And I used to hate that. And I used to think, I must give her advice and say, don't do that, don't do that. Because it was different from what I wanted. And then I learned that as long as it made her happy, I had to let go of the controlling mom that I wanted to be. And I learnt a lot from. From my daughter what's important in life, you know, and so. So I don't try and control her with the little things, but I do with the big things. And therefore I get more respect from her for that, if that makes sense. So with the relationship. It wasn't my relationship. I gave my advice. But she, as you say, she made her own mistakes and, and she probably learned from that, you know. Yeah. Funny. If Urban Angels said it's hard as a parent to get the balance of them making their own mistakes and still trying to guide them. This is so true. Interesting. My daughter, my son never got tattoos. My daughter did, but she was in a rock band from 17 to 23, touring everywhere. And I, oh my gosh, it just killed me, you know, if, if, thank God they're in places where she wears it address, they're covered. Yeah. But if she wears summer, you know, crop top shorts you can see, you know, on the tummy and back. And I was just like inside dying, you know, and, and she knew there was one that I particularly didn't like. But what can you do? Funny enough. What has she told me, you know, 10 years after getting them all, you know, I wish I hadn't got half of them, you know. Oh my. Said you were 18. How could I stop you? This is the problem. If we told them, you'll maybe regret this later. They're lovely now when you're young, but it's not going to look so good in a 50 year old then. But they can't see what it's like. You've just got to let them make the mistakes. And you know what, there's worse things in life. But it takes you a while as a parent to learn what's important. And I love my daughter. If she's happy, I'd rather have her happy with the tattoo I don't like. Thank you. Unhappy because I've kept her doing not the things she doesn't want to do. Does that make sense? Exactly. Very difficult. It's probably very sexist of me, but I wouldn't have minded so much if my son, who's a big 6 foot 5 guy, but you know, he never wanted them even though, you know, music is his life and he's in the industry. But yeah, but it's just our taste. We're old fashioned. We're fuddy duddies. We don't like them. Young people would be listening to us saying this and say, oh, how ridiculous, you know, but I'm, I'm very much fine with them now. But, but initially, like you, I was, oh my goodness, this is terrible. But not anymore. I think any parents listening this will resonate with this. It is. And I'm sure you know, the generations. My mother probably didn't like some of my choices. I know, I can remember she didn't. But you know, it, it is a generational thing and it's finding that balance, as Urban angel said about when you step in and when you just let it proceed. It's just part of parenting. We're learning as we go, aren't we? Of course we are. And it's the hardest job. And I just always think of that phrase, don't sweat the small stuff. And I have to categorize things that are important. And my probably as we get older we realize that things will we thought were important are not as important. You know, it's perhaps that's what we learn as a parent, you know. Well, we only have a little, little time. Just what how you have felt about things opening up. I asked AJ west, my first guest, you know, how he was feeling about things opening up. And he's kind of charged headlong back into things. How are you feeling about it? I've gradually taken small steps, although I've had to do it for work. But my situation has been difficult because my husband had cancer treatment during lockdown. So he was shielding. And then we came out of shielding and he's like, I'm fine, I'm off. And so he's probably more, more back to normal than I was. But there's this little thing at the back of my head thinks that okay, he's double vaccinated but he will be vulnerable. We don't know how he would be if he got and I think that very much it's about respecting other people. And when you see somebody else with a mask, you know, he, he was very happy to be back at his first football match. I'm so sorry, we're out of time. We will have to continue this. Give him my love, please. Thank you for coming on the show. Eva Burnett. People can find you@eviebrennette.com and on social media. Evie Burnett, I'll be back here in few a fortnight. Of course. The show is repeated tomorrow on both the stations at 4pm thank you for joining me and look after yourself until the next show.