Trending With Dr. Pam Spurr – Antony Costa, Dr Funke, Jon Abramowitz

Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Pam Spurr and you're here with me every fortnight on a Thursday when we look at what's trending on social media and of course it's the politicians and the celebrities that set the trends. But what we do is we bring it back to our lives and how it relates to what we're up to. Now as usual, you can get in touch on the men's radio station Social Media. I'd love to hear your comments social Media, see what you, what stories you have to share. And of course we're repeated on Fridays, 4pm on both stations, the men's and the women's radio stations. So do follow those stations now. Today I have a fantastic show as always and my first guest hardly needs an introduction, especially if you know your boy bands. A member of Blue who sold 15 million records. He's also had a huge success with acting, starring in productions like the UK tour of Rock of Ages Musical. You can find him on twitter and Instagram ntony Costa and@blueofficial.com and I'm delighted that Anthony will be joining me now. Hello. Hello. It's been a couple years since we spoke, I was going to say last spoke to you on another station about maybe, well, maybe 18 months ago and we were talking about one of the things was how you annoy your better half. You confess to how you get on her nerves at times, especially this last year. Dr. Pam, I can imagine. And we're going to talk about that. First off, Stephen Smith has joined, says we love Dr. Pamela. Thank you. And we need her in our worlds. Thank you, Stephen. Dave. Now, so the very first thing I want to ask you is what has life been like for you? How it's been tough, you co lock down? It's been tough. Dr. Pam. It's, I'm, I'm, I, I love spending time with family, I love spending time with my kids, I love seeing my kids, obviously. But I'm not a stay at home person, never have been, never will be. And I don't know how people can work from home. So I applaud you all. I, I find it amazing that the teachers do an amazing job. So I applaud you all. I am not that person, never will be that person. I just want to be out working and this year has been so, so tough for myself and for many other people as well. I know. Because your industry has really been hit. And before we go on to that, I want to say Helen has joined, says hey Pam, Anthony, hope you're Both. Well, thanks for joining the conversation. Thank you. So tell me about how then you've worked it out with your, your better half, as I like to call her. Has she been sort of in charge of like the homeschooling or maybe your kids aren't quite old enough yet for homeschooling because they're quite little? Oh, no, no, no. My oldest, well, my middle, she's, she's six going on seven. So she, she liked it at first, then she got bored. Then she wanted to play with her a little sister with the toys and the Barbie. So she's saying to me, why, why can my little sister play but I can't. And you're trying to tell a six year old that she's got to sit at a table and do work. It just. It. I just gave up. I gave up. And it was just a case of I tried it one day, my other half tried it the next day and it would just try to alternate and make it fun, but it just never worked. So as I said when we started talking, Dr. Pam, I applaud you. Oh, teachers. I'm so glad that my children are out of school and that I don't have to do that because I'm like you, Anthony. I'm always like working or painting or involved in stuff and. Yeah. And to sit down and make them learn the, you know, reading, writing and arithmetic. No, that would be hard. Now, now, what positives have you taken out of lockdown and you know, has there been anything that you felt. Actually, I've discovered this about myself or I've discovered how not to lose my patience. I've had to rein it in because I, because of the job I do. It's, it's on the go. You, you haven't got time to think, you haven't got time to be patient. You just got to go, go, go, go, go. So I've learned to take a step back and analyze the situation before, you know, going, losing your patience, Going, no. What's going on? Because I'm a clean freak. I like everything to be neat and tidy. Obviously not in here because I'm trying to get me wardrobe done at the moment, but. And the kids obviously playing, I'm like walking up behind them, cleaning everything up. But yeah, whereas under my other half, she's like, and it's not worth cleaning it up now because they're going to get it dirty. And you're like, no, no, they won't get it dirty, they won't get it done. And I constantly was at Them like, clean your toy room. Clean your toy room. And then I thought, do you know what? I just can't be bothered anymore. Just. Just let them do it and do it at the end of the day. Yeah. Let them destroy the playroom. And then at the end of the day, it gets tidied. Hey. What? My final guest today is an expert on ocd, and we'll be talking about people who want to clean everything and check everything. Yeah, but did you come to that own conclusion yourself? Like, okay, I got to step back before I lose it. Or did. Did your wife kind of help you with that? Not really. I said to find it myself because she just has a guy at me because she knows that I'm annoying. She's like, I hate when you're home and I hate when you're away. It's just like, do you know what I mean? So I'm just underneath her, you know, underneath her feet all the time. She's like, look, leave me alone. I'm like, what do you want me to do? Do you want to do anything? Do you want to go out? What do you want to do? Should we take the kids out? She did this and it's. And as she's been taking the kids out this week because I just need to. I'll need my own space. I need to do different things on my computer and work from home as much as I can. But, yeah, so listen, I. It's. It's been tough. Dr. Pam. It's been tough. It's been tough. We've got Helen laughing at what we're saying about how tough it's been in the kids. Cleaning up the kids stuff. Now, what about the. This last year? I mean, I, as with my new painting venture, had a couple exhibitions cancelled because of lockdowns. Yeah. What about you? Had you had any plans to go on the road or anything? Yeah, I was. I was doing a show called Zorro List Summer. So we rehearsed for five weeks in London, went up to Manchester. We opened in Manchester. We did two performances the Saturday and Sunday. Then on the Monday, it was. Theaters might be closing, they might not be. It was that big. Hoo ha. And then on the Tuesday morning, we get a call. We got called in saying, look, we're gonna have to cut the show and cancel. And then that was it. Work on. Yeah, absolutely. Gutting a. Gutting for the people who want to go and see musicals and theater and all those things. I mean, it's just been all around for everybody, you know, losing out on those Things. Now, before we talk a bit more about projects and maybe anything you've got coming up, how about if we play a little bit of Blue? All rise. Go, go, go. I think my producer has it. There it is. Yeah, yeah. Years ago. Gotta believe what I said what I will tell Happened Just the other day I must confess Cause I've had about enough I need your help Gotta make this here things stop Baby, I swear to you the truth about all the things Things you used to do and if you thought you had me fooling you now. Yay. I love that. I love that so much. He wants to keep going. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Cena, my produce. I love that tune so much. Oh, God. When my. When we. My kids were little, when that came out, and I can remember them just dancing around it, everybody loved it, you know, kitties, teens, adults, you know. Yeah, they did. It was surreal time, crazy time. Yeah. And you're still in touch, obviously, with the guys, aren't you? And. Oh, we speak every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were in a. You know, we've got our group, WhatsApp group going and just banter and laughing and joking and. Yeah, great. Any chance of Blue going on some of the boy band tours, have you? No, we've done that. We've done that. We've done that. About six, seven years ago now, we did a boy band tour, but nothing in the pipeline at the moment. So we just. Just. Too bad. That's too bad. God, you definitely won't be able to do anything now, Pam. Anyway, you know, shut up. Yeah, well, you know, we're going to be opening up, talking about the roadmap to unlocking. Have you got anything in the pipeline that you can tell us about? I mean, I know some of my guests recently have been able to say, well, I'm just working on something, but it's not ready yet. Yeah, I mean, I've just been writing and just doing some writing in the studio, doing bits and pieces, you know, at home. And, yeah, I'm just keeping myself busy. Just keep my mind active and just doing shows like this. A lot of podcasts I'm doing. I'm on Clubhouse all the time when I'm talking about my love of football. And I do different talks as well, so, yeah, it's just keeping me busy, just talking to people. Yeah, you've got me on Clubhouse now and I haven't even had a chance to check it out, but maybe positivity talk. You gotta figure it out. Mandy has said I love Blue. Thank you. Very much so. Well, we'll, we'll be watching out. And when you have something definite, you're definitely coming back on the show. Right now I want to check out some of the trends with you. Now. The first one that's, you know, been trending in the last, say 24 hours is fogo. Fear of going out again. It used to be fomo fear of missing out and now it's the reverse. People have been locked down for so long that evidently a lot are feeling anxious about getting out again. And I know with some of my clients, my life coaching clients, that has been something that we've been talking about the last few weeks now. How about you? How do you feel about it? I bet you're itching to get out again, but. I'm itching, Pam, I'm itching. I do get a little bit of nervousness. I get it completely. Absolutely. We've been, as you said, we've been locked up for, on and off for over a year and a half a year now. But I just can't wait to be mixing with people again. I can't wait to see normality back, you know, I can't wait to take the kids to a, a soft play area rather than standing in the park and doing that with a swing for 20 minutes. You know what I mean? It's just mind numbing. I'm sorry. I can't wait for them to start mixing with other, with other children as well and playing and da, da, da, and obviously for me and Rosanna to go out and mix with family, friends, loved ones, etc. So, yeah, bring it on. But I do get that a lot of people are, are, you know, very nervous about doing that because I probably am, but I might not be showing it. Well, the thing is like after the second lockdown, I, or after maybe the first big one, I rushed out and I was seeing so many friends going into Soho, meeting up for drinks, all that kind of stuff. And this time I'm actually like, well, this week I've been working, but you know, just like over the weekend going to see an old friend, going to see, you know, some family. But I'm not rushing madly. I just kind of feel like people are under pressure to suddenly see everyone all at once and it's just too much. And I just keep telling clients, just slow it down. See one person at a time and gradually you'll feel better about interacting. But like with you, I mean, you, you with football games and stuff, when's all that going to happen? When do you get to go. We don't know. We don't know. There's talk by the end of. I think it's end of April, beginning of May. But listen, we'll see. I don't believe anything until I see it in. In writing. That's, you know, for now, I'm just taking each day as it comes because I don't want us to just. Just follow the rules, just, just for the next couple of weeks, just so we can just get out of here. And yes, again, I'm so glad to hear that because some of the shocking pictures we've seen recently with the wonderful sunshine and people just thronging in big crowds, and I'm like, I can't wait to go to the TV studio and do an interview rather than seeing someone's book, bookshelf or someone's clothes in the back. You know what I mean? I'm like, oh, I just want to see people and talk to someone. Rather than, you know, oh, you might some mute. You might some mute. Mandy has said I'd love to hear some of your new music, but obviously, thank you very much. Nothing at the moment, but thank you. Yeah, big, big Blue fan there now and an Anthony fan, I should say. Now, the other thing that's come up trending is April Fools and how a lot of people are saying, no, I don't want any April Fool's jokes. Like, this whole year has been a horrible nightmare joke. And I'm like, no, please, April Fools me, make me laugh, you know, now. Which makes me think about the fact that a lot of surveys have found that a good sense of humor is really attractive. And I just wondered, is that something that Rosanna. Is that Rosanna, your other half, is she attracted to your humor? Yeah, she's. She's got a good sense of humor. But yes, laughing. There's a thing on Clubhouse. I'll keep going about Clubhouse, but it's the Laughing Yoga Man. And every morning you can just log on and just listen to him laughing. And it gets you. It gets you going for, you know, for the day. It's only 15 minutes. 10, 15 minutes. But it's nice to hear people laugh. I like making people laugh. I like being on stage. I like doing a show or doing a bit of. A bit of acting and a bit of pantomime where your, you know, kids are laughing at you or the family are booing you and blah, blah, blah. That's entertainment. That's what we're there to do. And I hope laughter is the best medicine. It has to be. But with April Fools, I mean, for me, I get it, but I've never been one for an April Fool's. I think, why should we just have one day of just laughing? Let's have a whole year of laughing. I agree. Except that a family member left me a big plastic spider under my loaf of bread that I was gonna make some toast this morning. And although I'm a psychologist, and I do help people with their phobias, my own spider, my arachnophob, is a little bit out of control right now. And I was like, okay, I gotta laugh about this, but as long as they don't put it in the shower. Yeah. No, no, no. Don't go there now. Something about, you know, kind of another thing that occurred to me about. With April Fools trending so much, it's just been like, the top three things on Twitter have been all about April Fools and First of April, whatever, caught out. But in a more serious way. Like, it's a life lesson. I think sometimes in all of our lives, someone comes into it where you think you know them, and then you find out you don't. And this happened to me in the last year. There was someone I thought I knew really well who then did something that really surprised me, and that was kind of it. And I. Sometimes. Sometimes we're caught out by people, aren't we? Do you think this is just, like, part of human life, that we. That we want to believe something we see in someone and then we find out it's not true? What's your take on that? 100%, Pam. I'm always learning. I mean, I never. I never stop learning. I always want to learn about people, about life itself. And I don't get disappointed anymore. Someone lets me down. I don't get disappointed. I just think, okay, fine, that's it. They're not. They're not for me. Let's go. Let's move on. Because I always used to get upset because I always wanted people to think the way I thought to. To. To be the way I am, to respect the way I do. But if people don't. People are different. You can't expect people to think and be like you all the time. So you've got to accept these certain people that come into your life for their faults and their. And their. And their. And the truth's about them. So, yeah, listen, it's happened to me loads of times. I mean, I could go on for hours, but I've learned to put it back on mine and move on. I think that's really interesting what you say about what you expect from someone. And wow, does this apply to so many of the people I work with where, you know, they may be reliable people. They're, you know, they've got people's best interests at heart and then they come across colleagues or new friends or whatever who, who don't have that sense of just treating people with respect or whatever. And it's a big wake up call that what you expect from your own behavior, you can't necessarily expect from someone else, which is what you've just said. I'm talking about this all the time. You could be a life coach. From the heart. I talk, I tell people sometimes maybe what they don't want to hear, sometimes what they want to hear. It's just the truth. You've got to be truthful. And one thing for me is communication. If someone doesn't communicate well with me, I, I lose, I lose faith straight away, straight away, straight away. I can't. One my, one of my pet hates is, you know, you're phoning someone to have a bit of a chin wag, a bit of a chat, and then they, they don't answer the call. But then in the next breath they're on Twitter or they're on Instagram or they're doing a live video and you're thinking, hold on a minute, you're showing people that you're, that you're, do you know what I mean? Communication, man. Communication, so, so true. Has to be real. And Mandy's commented, you know, sometimes people who are envious of you that let you down. And I think that's true in some cases. Definitely. But I think often it's just a lot of people don't have like the same sense of just, as I say, respect or reliability. And you're absolutely right. It's so easy to catch people out nowadays. You know, that person who hasn't taken your call and then you're on Twitter and you see them tweeting and just, you know, it's so rude. It's rude. It's rude. I wasn't brought up like that. Yeah. You know, I'll always answer my phone or I'll always, definitely, always come back. I'll always answer a message because it's just, it's just rude. It's just rude not to. Yeah. And I, as I say, it's something, a life lesson almost that we all have to kind of deal with where our own expectations are not going to be met, that we have to be able to see that, okay, they, they just don't act like that. And I'm not going to take it personally, you know. Yes. You know, when you're young, you take all those things personally and you think, oh, it's only me. They've let me down. But no, they probably let everybody down in their lives. You know, you're so right. You're so right. And I think with you being in show business again, I have worked with people in show business, and there's a lot of different personality quirks out there, a lot of really big egos. And I think it's a sort of open fair play that people are, you know, often letting each other down. I mean, this is what I hear from people that I know who I've worked with, who I've coached, who, you know, are in the celebrity world. And, you know, they often feel, God, you know, I just can't trust anyone in showbiz. And I go, come on, there's got to be some good people like Anthony. Yeah, I've never changed. Doctor, I've never done. Dr. Pam. I've always been the same and the same with you. Do you know what I mean? And that's how you got to be. You've got to treat people how you would like to be treated. I mean, that's. It's respect at the end of the day. It's being nice and being courteous and please and thank you always goes a long way. It kind of brings me to the last thing I want to run past you about what was trending today. Also about their survey that came out that showed that one in five people will not get a test if they had Covid symptoms. So 1/5 people will just happily go about their life even if they've got the dry cough, the fever, whatever, and kind of just spread it around. I was a little bit surprised by that. But do you think there's kind of a sneaky side to human nature? Yeah, maybe. People just a bit hate to use the word selfish, but just. I just think people are not as out there as we. As we want them to be. This is what I'm saying. You would, you would go and get a test? I would go and get a test. My friend would go and get this. But you can't expect everyone to think and be like you. And that's. Otherwise, it will just eat you up inside. Pam, do you know, I mean, you know, you, you're. This is your life. You talk to people 24 hours a day. And I, I for one, would. I know what I would do, but I can't educate someone else who's a grown man or grown woman on and, you know, an adult. So. Oh, you must get a test because if they don't want to do it, they won't do it. So what's the point? Why wait? Why waste your energy? That's what I'm trying to get at. Helen. Helen has said, yeah, she agrees. It popped up when we were talking about, is there a sneaky side to human nature? And I just think, yeah, one thing I'm getting out of this chat with you is just about keeping your eyes open and being very self aware about, you know, the people we come across and sort of, you know, not measuring others by how we ourselves behave because we might have these higher standards. Yeah. You know, I'm trying to think of a time that I've been sneaky. I'm sure we, we've all in our lives been sneaking. I'm trying to think what it is. Everyone's, as I said, no one's perfect. We've all probably done something a little bit sneaky. We think, oh, no. And then my conscience would tell me, no, that's bad. You have to. You know what I mean? So we've all done it. We've all said to a mate, oh, I'll meet you in the public five o' clock and you don't turn up till six because you've gone to another club without telling that person or whatever. Do you know what I mean? So that's just being late. It's being crafty. It's been. It's being crafty. I'm never late. I'm never late. I'm, I'm punctual too. So are you one of those people that's. Oh, my God. Oh my God. The boys call me Rolex. I've never been late in 21 years. I love it. I'm gonna call you Rolex from now. Yeah. Oh my gosh. See, I'm never late. Literally. Now, both of us having said this publicly, we will both be late for something this weekend or something. I will not be late, Pam. Well, it's really interesting with my children, one of them is always late probably because I always made sure they were on time and the other is like me, always on time. It's really interesting to see in your children. I wonder with your children if they're both going to be like you or, or they're, you know, one of them's going to rebel and be always late. I think, I think Savannah, my six year old. She's always, she's always worried about being late. And Rosanna's like, you've made them, you've made them worry about being late. Now it's your fault. And I'm like, I can't help it. I can't help it. I have to get to school 10 minutes before the gates open. I can't be one of them. That is me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I can't, I can't, I can't deal with it. I've got to say. So. I've learned one thing that you and I share is punctuality and we like humor. But the one thing I can't agree on is the tidiness because I've never been a, like a total neat freak or anything. Why? And, well, I mean, you know, my home's tidy, but, you know, if things get out of place, I don't sweat it. I can't deal with it. I can't deal with it. Cannot deal with. Well, if it ever gets on top of you, we will talk about it. It's been amazing having you and I can't wait to come back again. I want to tell people they can find you, of course, on social media at Anthony Costa. Yeah. BlueOfficial.com for the. It's at Official Blue. Oh, official Blue. Sorry, yeah, yeah, I've been saying it. Yeah. In reverse. That's my dyslexia because I'm dyslexic, so I reverse things so often. But thank you for, for telling me that. So official blue.com and yes, I can't wait to talk to you again. I'll see you in Clubhouse one day when I work it out. Okay. Yes, join us in Clubhouse. See you later, darling. Bye, darling. Bye. Bye. Oh, wonderful to talk to Anthony again. I, I last spoke to him on a show about a year and a half ago and he always likes to go deep with topics. Now I'm delighted my next guest is joining me now. She's an author, a clinical psychologist and a well being expert. And I consider her a friend on social media. You can find her at Dr. FunkyB and her website is Dr.funky.co.uk and she should be joining us from Ghana right about now, I hope. Hello, darling. Hi. Hi. Always love. Lovely to see you. I know it's been so long. We still have a bit of an echo. I don't know what that's about. No, I haven't got the headphones on. Okay, well, we'll crack on. I was going to say the last time we spoke was about two and a half, three years ago. And we interact on Twitter. Sometimes it's just been too long. You're in Ghana, though, now, before we get into talking about teenagers. Well, being. What's it been like during the pandemic in Ghana? Well, obviously I follow the news around the world just to keep abreast of what's going on in Ghana. It's nothing like what's been happening in parts of the world. Yes, we've had a pandemic. We had lockdown for three weeks this time last year. So that was for three weeks. I think it may be around October. The cases really rose up. I mean, not in relation to what's going on in other parts of the world. The deaths in death are deaths. But I think the last I heard was maybe about 600 deaths since the whole pandemic. Wow. Yeah. I think what I could say of what being on the ground, I think Ghana really, as soon as they had one case, Dr. Pam, they shut everything down. The schools were shut, the borders were shut down and they were able to put in a protocol of you get tested as soon as you come and if you're positive, you go to a hotel. They did this way back in last April or May, so they had a really tight system and I think that really helped them. And then we were a bit panicky because all of a sudden cases were rising before. I didn't know anybody who had Covid until, let me say, in October. I'm seeing people having Covid. We went back to school in January because I work in a school and we were really worried, but we haven't had to shut down the school. So it's been, I think, I mean, what we hear, it's not being hit in some parts of the world, so, like West Africa. I don't think Covid is as rampant in South Africa. I know the numbers are very high. Well, that's really good to hear. And, you know, we could take a lesson out of Ghana's book then here in the UK for sure. And how it was handled. Yes. Yeah, let's not go there, Pam. That could be a whole show now we're talking teenagers and good mental health. Are your kids teenage yet? Yeah, I have a son. He's now. Well, had my son, he's 16, so he's a right in it. And my daughter, Even though she's 11, she's a preteen, so, you know, the preteens really are teens in the making, so. And I work with young people, so I'm constantly surrounded by teenagers and yes, in the mental health for teenagers, we need to put on top of the agenda now. Don't you feel that a good foundation for good mental health is created in the very early years? I believe that, Pam. I believe, you know, when we're thinking about how children are red the importance of connection. You know, as psychologists, we look at attachment and say, well, if you have good attachment, then it's going to help raise healthy adults and so forth. Yes. You know, we can always say what is good. But then there's also the reality on the ground. We need to look at what impacts mental health. There's a lot of things impacting mental health before COVID so I don't want us to think that, oh, mental health is. It's on the rise. But if you think about this is where I think the UK were really a step ahead is because they started thinking about mental health in schools way before the pandemic. If you saw what Theresa May was saying, things that were being put in place in schools. So I think the uk, we can stand on that. We do take mental health seriously. I think we could do a bit more. But the knowledge is there. Yeah, the knowledge is there. Putting into action. And with COVID the way schools have been open and shut and open and shut this year, it's been so tough on families. Yeah. What do you think with teens, let's say, whether they had a good foundation and start in life, good, secure attachment rather than insecure attachment to their parents. You know, people can get traumas from all sorts of things, so it's not always a wrong, an easy road, even if you've had a very good foundation, you know, isn't it. It can still. Things can get disrupted. Absolutely. I mean, Pam, there's so many things that affects one's mental health, not only what they've experienced in their childhood. You know, someone may end up having an experience at school. Bullying is a classic and leads to a lot of problems in mental health. They may have had a tragedy, they may have been completely attacked, a sexual assault. That has nothing to do with being raised in a very healthy mental, very healthy family environment. So we need to look at what can be the factors that can trigger one's mental health. And we know, I mean, when we're looking at research, what we do know is that family home is crucial, but also the school experience and what we're seeing now, Pam, in terms of why we're seeing this whole rush of mental health and how the pandemic has really brought it out to a level that we're all scratching our heads. What to do is for so many children, school was a protective factor. And we know as psychologists, protective factors nurture and help us to get through difficult times. Now that was taken away. And then we've told all our young people do not socially connect. When we hear about social distancing, I don't know if you remember when I tweeted and said we should not call it social distancing. What you're saying is physical distancing. And I think that has really messed up a lot of people's minds. And what we're seeing is that young people are struggling because they're becoming more lonely, feeling isolated. What we are seeing, though, Pam, this is really interesting, is that those that will tend to be introverts have kind of thrived in the pandemic because they like being on their own and they like just talking to someone, maybe on social media and don't have to show their face. So what we're seeing, those who are extrovert, who are outgoing, who like to interact and feel alive in that environment, are struggling. And that's not only teenagers, that is adults, too. So that's why. Yeah, I was going to say it's interesting you bring that up because I have had clients who deal with anxiety who have found that by being in lockdown and choices are taken out of, you know, their path and they have to stay at home. And, you know that their anxiety has diminished because they don't feel overwhelmed. Like, oh, when I go out today, when I go into work, you know, is that going to ask me for coffee? And oh, will I feel up to it? Will I feel confident enough? And all those sort of choices have been removed. And also, I think a lot of people have been able to work on their anxieties during lockdown. They've had more time to think what works for me, what makes me better. But with a teenager, that kind of thinking sometimes doesn't work out well. You know, the teenage brain is changing so much. Yes, yes. And also we've got to look at what's happening now. Think of their lives. They're in their room and they're in their home now. They might be family dynamics. They may have seen a member of their family go through Covid. They may see the fear on their family's faces. They may have lost someone to Covid. So all of a sudden, their world is trapped inside this bubble. And usually when teenagers are going through things, they're able to interact with their peers. As a way of an offlet, they have no offlet. So that internal. And even though we can say we've got social media and in a way way we should say thank God for social media because if we didn't have that social media, what would happen? And I know there's some negative sides to it, but I think it's the individual and we're looking at the external factors being what's going on in the home. And that is the real precursor to a lot of the mental health in teenagers because there's struggles going on the home. They might be going for a divorce. We know that child abuse and sexual abuse and all of those things have risen to a level that we can't even identify. So where does the child go there? Everything's been shut down. You've got to suffer in silence. And that's what's worrying for me. That is very tough. Now the other thing, I'm sorry, we've got so much echo. I don't know, can you try muting while I'm talking? Just if when you mute or you're like me, maybe not as technical. I don't know how to mute my mic. Okay. So one thing I was going to say is I've been very concerned that, you know, parents are their children's role model and I get very concerned. I see a lot of people I know who are parents say on social media saying, oh, I'm so anxious. Oh, this makes me so my anxiety is out of control. And I think, well, that's great if you're expressing that to other adults. But are you expressing that to your children and teens? Because I think parents showing a little bit of resilience really helps children. And I sometimes worry that parents forget they are such a big role model. So if they're going banging on and on about anxiety, then their children are just going to absorb that. Do you sometimes wish parents would basically like zip it? What do you think? I'm going to unmute now? It's a really good point you raised, Pam, because as a parent, you raise your child and they look up to you as guidance. But parents are individuals too, Pam. Parents, they've never experienced what we're going through right now. They usually, okay, if this is going to happen, I can guide you. We're living in this new so called normal of complete uncertainty. So when parents are saying they're anxious, what they're saying is, I can't actually tell my child what is the next step because I don't know. And as a human Being they're expressing their emotions in the way they best know. As a parent, a message I would say to a parent is just be present and have these conversations with your family, with your children. Because, you know, kids are so intuitive. If parents don't say nothing, they can pick up the vibe. So have that family time. Yes, this is actually nervous. I'm anxious about this because I haven't dealt with my own anxiety. But it doesn't mean that you have to be anxious. We will get through this together. I think the transparency is so important. That's what helped unite the family. It's not even saying to a parent, buck up, you sort yourself out because they're going through their own stuff too. And I think the reality of life right now, just be real and transparent and get through this the best way we can. I think you're more generous spirited when it comes to parents. We're laughing now because Funkee's just taken off her. She's muted herself again due to the echo. Because I kind of feel that, yes, if you're anxious as a parent that you should be offloading to a partner, if you have a partner, to your best friends, to your own mum, whatever. But when it comes to your children, you kind of, you do bucket up a bit and you do go, when I talk to them, I'm going to tell them I don't have all the answers. But that, that doesn't worry me because no one in the country has all the answers. We're all in this where we're just feeling our way and that's okay, that's an okay way to do things rather than speaking about their own anxiety. Because I just think sometimes with younger children and teens, and I've witnessed this when I used to work in the NHS with families, was just that if you can learn to show a bit more resilience around your children that, that can be helpful. I think, Pam, you are so right because the kids need to feel protected. But I also know the reality. Our young people are on social media and it's bombarded and I think now I know what you're saying because if the parent is not keeping it together, how do we expect the children to keep it together? And that's ideal. But there's some parents that are finding it very difficult and yes, you're right. Speak to an adult. Access services. There are so many strategies out there, Pam, in how to manage anxiety. Once you know you've got anxiety, there was a lot of things that you can actually do and maybe parents can Focus on how can I better myself because if I'm a better version of myself, I'm going to be better able to connect with my family. And that's the self care aspect. But I also know the other side that parents that just don't have those resilience skills and the pandemic has just exposed and made it so raw for the family members to cope with. And then what do we say for those people? The same thing, but I would say seek help, but I don't know. Pam, what is the help available? Is there help available for people who are really struggling with anxiety in the UK right now? Can they easily access a therapist? Yeah, well, they can access the helpline. There is the helpline that is going really well, evidently provided by the NHS and the government for kind of instant chatting, you know, almost like when you bring the Samaritans where you get, you know, to chat then and there, but actual to get proper Skype consultations or, you know, or you know, eventually face to face. That's where the waiting lists are now. I wanted to get, before we talk about your books, I wanted to get just your top tips for parents. What would they say to help with their teenagers self esteem? Okay, that's a really good one because when we think about. Can you hear me? When we think about self esteem, it's one sense of self. As a parent I know it can be really difficult to have if you're not a parent that really is a chatty parent of your teenager. Because teenagers will know when you just read a book and knock on the door, son, daughter, this is. It doesn't work. You got. So I think parents try to educate yourself about self esteem in teenagers, understand what teenagers are going through. So that's the first thing. Educate yourself and really just be present. I really want parents to be present with their kids. That is the most powerfulest thing you can do. And you might say, how can I be present? Maybe at meal times, may not even be meal times. You may not even have a table to sit down and eat, you know, sitting down, maybe watching the program, you can put the program off, maybe engage in some apps. If your children like to do some gaming like Minecraft or something like that, you can engage with them because they feel, wow, my mom and dad, my parents really understand what I'm going through. Then you can have some conversations. The greatest things that I do in my therapy with young children, I would engage in some apps and games. The amount of information and it's just simple discussions. So say to your Child, well, you know, sometimes you say, how are you feeling today? But then you don't know what to say. You could say, what makes you, you know, I like. You can do scaling. On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate your day? They may say 7. What does 7 actually look like? They may say, well, it looks like this. So what would happen if you were on 8? Immediately you've understood what your child needs to get up. So simple stuff like that is just a breakthrough. There's no. I absolutely love that technique and I think it's a great way to get chatting. And I also like to be present and I often say to people, just turn off your mobile when you're around your kids. Do not be distracted by social media. Do not think that what's going on in Facebook is more important than what's happening right in your home. That being present thing is just the most excellent tip you could give. Thank you for that. Now, we've only got a couple more minutes. Let's talk about your books because you've written so many books. I know. Thank you, Pam. The books that I wrote for teenagers, it's a Me, Myself and I series. And the whole point is, was whilst I was writing it and it's present now, is for young people to really understand their friendships and relationships, understand their body changes. I talk about masturbation, I talk about pornography. I think it's so important we do talk about it. I talk about self esteem and so forth. Now these books have also helped with parents because sometimes parents find it difficult to talk about these things. I remember one parent came to me and said, Dr. Funke, I caught my son or watching pornography. I said, oh great, well, here's this book, read it and then read this page together. He came back to me, said this was the greatest thing ever. We had so much conversation because sometimes parents don't know how to gauge it. And these are really simple books with simple case studies where teenagers can really connect and build up their self esteem, understand what friendships are like because we know cyberbullying is high. We know that and also understand about what's going on in their body. Because now more than ever teens and preteens are being exposed to pornography. That's a big deal right here. It's big around the world. The pandemic has magnified it. Now what we want our kids to know is what they see as a form of pornography is not real love. They've got to know what is love because they start to signify and their minds get Programmed what a sexual relationship is like, and it's not like what they see there. So these are the conversations that you as a parent have with your child. And your books are available. You can get them on Amazon. Just, I mean, if you type my name in, then you see all my books. I've got some other books about improving your thinking and love your authentic self. Because I believe that we all need to love who we really are. We do. We do. And it's been wonderful talking to you. And I really hope that we don't leave it another, what, two and a half years to talk. But it doesn't matter. Even whenever we talk, we just connect. So it's wonderful. We'll always have that connection. Ever since our big brother years. Oh, my gosh, we have so much fun on the panel. Okay, well, big, big love sending it over to Ghana right now. Thank you, darling. Bye, darling. You can find Dr. Funky at Dr. Funky beach for Bafura. And her website is drfunke.co.uk, and it always cheers me up talking to Funkee. And it's just been too long, but we've known each other for years now. Last but not least, I have another fantastic guest. He's Dr. John Abramovich, and he's a clinical psychologist, a professor at the University of North Carolina, and the author of the Family Guide to Getting over ocd, Reclaim youm Life and Helped your Loved ones. You can find him on Twitter @Doctor JohnAbram, short for Abramovich, and also@JayAbramovich.com and I hope he's joining me now from North Carolina. I'm here. Hello. Nice to meet you, Dr. Abramovich. Nice to meet you too, Pam. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. Now, first off, I have to say, what's it like with a pandemic in North North Carolina? You know, right now we're kind of. You know, I think that things. People want to think that things are getting better. I'm not sure that they. That they really are. We get some numbers that look good, other numbers that don't look so good. Things are opening up, though. But I still think it's important for people to be wearing masks and socially distancing and doing all the typical stuff. I don't think we're out of the woods here. Well, it's very much the same picture in the UK and if only people distance. But all over the uk, you see, all the time people are saying, I want to take my mask off because it's against my freedom. I'm thinking, what about the freedom for the rest of us not to get ill? But that's a whole nother debate. You're here to talk about ocd, and I'm so thrilled because I know this is a big area for you. First, for people listening who don't know what OCD is, can you please describe it? Sure. OCD is a psychological condition, psychological disorder where the person, person has these unwanted intrusive thoughts and they might be about, you know, what if I'm contaminated with germs? Or what if I am, you know, a violent person when I'm, you know, you know, when I'm really not the image to stab someone that you love? Or what if I forgot to lock the door? And just these thoughts that are just against the person, they're. They're not what the person typically thinks. This thoughts just keep coming and coming and coming and it leads to a lot of anxiety and distress and uncertainty and doubt. And then the person engages in compulsive rituals to try to, I don't know, try to put those thoughts to rest. So if I have thoughts about contamination, I'm going to go and wash my hands over and over again. If I have thoughts that I've left the door unlocked or that, what if I hit someone with my car and didn't realize it, I'm going to go back and check over and over again. Or some thoughts, you know, what if I'm a murderer because I had some thought about harming someone? Or what if I am, you know, a child molester because I had some thought about a young child. They're going to go and ask for reassurance and check and do all sorts of mental rituals also to try to make themselves feel better. But these strategies, these mental strategies and these rituals, they don't work. They just make the problem worse. Person gets into a vicious cycle, causes all sorts of problems in their daily life and functioning. And it can be really difficult to get out of that on your own. Well, it's interesting what you say about the mental rituals for people listening. So people can think obsessively about something but don't necessarily have the compulsive behaviors with it. So how often do you see that where it's just people obsessively thinking, but actually then they don't, you know, it's a sort of thought process. Like you say, they worry they might do something bad or embarrassing, but. But there's no real compulsive behavior that goes to prevent that. So is that less common than people actually Then do some sort of behaviors to kind of make themselves feel better, like the checking of the locks or checking of the oven. They haven't left the oven on. It's a great question. And one of the things that we have found is that the term obsession has just lost its meaning. Everything's an obsession. If I think a lot about my new car, you know, I'm upset. You know, that's an obsession. If I'm. If I've just been, let's say, dumped from a relationship and I'm just, you know, ruminating about it, that's an obsession. I'm obsessed with jealousy. I'm obsessed with this. I'm obsessed with that. In ocd, an obsession is a thought that goes against your typical nature. It's a kind of more senseless thought. So it's not about a real life thing. If you've got. If you've got a new car and you can't stop thinking about it, right. That's not an OCD obsession. If you've got a new, you know, partner or you've been, you know, just kind of dumped, a relationship has ended, and you can't stop thinking about that, that's not ocd because that's a real life unfortunate circumstance. That's kind of a reactive thing just to invent, rather than a kind of chronic. Always obsessing about. Yeah, that's. That's a good way to put it. Those are reactive to an actual event in ocd. We see thoughts like person's just, you know, driving their car home, and they get this thought, was that a speed bump or a body? Right. And so that's. And it's like, you know, I would know if I hit someone. I would hear them scream and all that. I would see the person, probably. So it's a senseless kind of thought. We're talking about people who, let's say, have been married in a. In a heterosexual relationship for 50 years. And they get the thought, what if I'm really gay and I just don't realize it? And then they're going back and checking and reviewing in their mind. Mind. So the compulsions are to try to put things right in their mind, to try to give them certainty about something that's. That's unlikely. And that's really what the crux of OCD is about. It's interesting what you mentioned. Years ago, when I was doing my CBT training, there was a client who was obsessively thinking that when they were driving, they would run over a toddler in a Pram. And they couldn't get rid of this. And they were very anxious whenever they were in their car or if they were even walking past, say, a school where young children's voices could be heard. And I can remember my supervisor saying to me, go tape some young children laughing in a nursery. You know, they're at nursery at school. And then we'll do some relaxation with this. This person, you know, techniques. And when we get them to relax, we'll start also getting them used to listening to laughing children. And it was a really interesting process. And I was really, as a young trainee psychologist, I was really quite shocked about. Because I had a toddler. I was an unmarried student at university who had a child out of wedlock. And I remember thinking, my gosh, this person is thinking about someone my own child's age, you know? And it was a really, really interesting process to work and learn about CBT training and techniques. It's a treatment that works really well. Exposure and response prevention. It's true. Yeah. So tell me, you know, you've written the book about families, you know, with how you can help a loved one. Tell me first, though, what's the first step? I guess the person who's suffering has to kind of embrace the fact that they need. That what they're doing isn't working before the family gets involved, or how would you do that? Well, so the book that I've written is primarily for people who have relatives who have OCD who are having trouble getting started with getting help. A lot of people with OCD who live in families, they will drag their. Whether it's a partner or spouse, whether it's a parent or a child, they will drag their loved ones into the ocd. So you have to wash your hands for me now, right? I'm afraid of contamination. It's not enough for me to wash my hands, but now you have to also to keep everything clean for me, right? Or you have to, honey, you have to help me check all the doors and the windows before we go to bed and then answer 30 questions. Questions about whether everything's locked again. You know, otherwise I. I won't be able to sleep. And so people with ocd, they drag their loved ones in. And what happens is that these loved ones, they feel they're between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they're like, you know, what am I doing? Why am I reassuring my partner that everything's locked when of course, everything's locked? This is ridiculous. On the other hand, they. They love their partner and they don't want to see them or their relative. They don't want to see them anxious and upset. And they know that if, you know, if I don't go through these rituals, if I don't wash my hands for my kid, if I don't check with my partner, then he or she is going to be upset, they're going to be angry with me, it's going to be a whole nother thing, so I'll just do it. And these people get brought in and they don't know what to do. So they're kind of enabling, but as you say, they're caught between a rock and a hard place. What do they do? What should they do? John? Yeah. So my suggestion is to gradually stop to learn that anxiety and obsessional thoughts and uncertainty are not dangerous. What you're going to do when you stop doing this accommodation, we call it, is you're going to teach your loved one how to handle their OCD more independently. And in the book, I give the reader skills for how to, in a loving way, stop accommodating, stop doing these extra things, stop avoiding for your loved one. And at the same time, you're teaching them that they can manage anxiety on, on, on their own, that they, you know, if they don't want to get help for their ocd, then it's. OCD has to be their problem, not, not your problem as the, as the reader. That must be a really tough process for loved ones where, because they feel like they don't want to hurt their partner who's struggling with this. And how do you bolster them to say, no, you're actually, it's probably more harmful to keep accommodating your partner's ocd. I mean, how do you get around to that position with them? It's a great question and it is a delicate tightrope. What I do is I teach in my book, I talk a lot about how, you know, anxiety is normal. Everyone experiences anxiety. So the same sort of anxiety that your loved one with OCD experiences, that's what you have when you're worried about a test or, you know, someone's health or stuff like that. And anxiety is unpleasant, but at the end of the day, it's the fight or flight response. It's not dangerous. And so when you pull back on accommodating, when you stop doing rituals for your loved one, you're actually doing a very loving thing, even though it doesn't look like it in the moment, you're helping your loved one with ocd. To learn that they can manage anxiety, too. And that's what cbt, what you were mentioning before, that's what exposure and response prevention is all about. It teaches people with ocd, I can do it. I can get through this anxiety. And so we just want. If the person's not going to go out and get professional help, then the folks who they're living with can actually kind of unilaterally help the person to learn that by scaling back the accommodation that they're doing. May I ask for. Is there. Are there particular personality traits or personality types that are more susceptible to developing ocd? You know, research just has not been able to figure out what are the psychological or the biological conditions that lead to ocd. We do have some good guesses. So there are people who tend to misinterpret their intrusive thoughts and take their thoughts very literally and have a very tender conscience. Those are people that tend to end up, you know, with. With ocd. A lot of the folks that we see in our clinic, they. They have this tendency to, you know, if I think about something bad, that means I'm a bad person. And so they misinterpret these kinds of thoughts. They see the world more as a dangerous place. They tend to be a little more kind of perfectionist. They tend to be. They have problems with uncertainty. They feel like they need to know for sure. And so this intolerance of uncertainty is a. Is a probably a predictor. Do you think with the pandemic, from your experience with your clients, maybe, or generally, you know, reading research, have OCD behaviors kind of exploded? Because, of course, everybody's been talking about hand sanitizing. Yeah. Or has it not? It depends on the person. Like a lot of, as, you know, like a lot of questions in psychology, the answer is it depends. For some people, absolutely, it's exploded. And those folks that are worried about contamination and illnesses now, like, you know, absolutely. Covid is everywhere. And we see a lot more, you know, rituals around that for certain people. Other people have kind of. They've kind of embraced it. They've leaned. They've leaned into it, and they're. They're able to. To say, hey, look, now all of you know what I'm going through. Welcome to my world. I got this. I've been preparing for this for a long time. So it just depends on the person. Yeah. Now, what I think would be really helpful is we only have a couple of seconds. Your biggest tip for someone struggling with OCD right now, first step, if you have ocd you want exposure and response prevention treatment, find a therapist who can do erp. That's the best form of of treatment, you know, full stop for ocd. What I'd love to do, because I knew I'd need more time with you, is have you back on in the next month or two and we'll talk through more of your tips. Thank you so much, Dr. John Abramovich. People can find you@jayabramovich.com and your book, the Family Guide to Getting Over OCD. Reclaim youm Life and Help youp Loved One is out now. And I'll be back here in two weeks time with another show. Don't forget, it's repeated tomorrow on both of the stations and at 4pm I want to thank you for joining in. Thanks for all the comments that came in earlier. And look after yourself for the next two weeks.