Trending With Dr. Pam Spurr – Jay James, Dawn Neesom, Anjula Mutanda

Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Pam Spurr here with you every fortnight on a Thursday on the men's radio station for trending with Dr. Pam. And it's repeated on Fridays, 4pm on both the men's and the women's stations. Now what do we do on the show? We take the trends from social media and we bring them back to our lives, what they mean to us. Forget what the politicians and the celebrities are doing. And I always have awesome guests who share their views, their stories, their journeys, and we learn so much from them. Don't forget, you can follow both the men's and women's radio stations on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all the usual places. Now I'm super psyched for my first guest who is part of the multi platinum selling group the Overtones and also a radio and TV presenter. He was in the final eight of the X Factor 2014. And on Twitter and Instagram you can find himjames and you can find the Overtones at the Underscore Overtones. And I'm delighted that Jay is going to join me now. Hello. Hey, you're child free. You had your adorable little Franklin with you a few minutes ago when we were talking. I did. I must admit though, Dr. Pam, Franklin may be making a bit of an appearance because my wife. I've done that. It's a bit cliche now with the old lockdowns that we've been having, but the child care scenario, I'm still looking after Franklin, so he may pop up in a minute, but it's great to see you. And can I just say, those two pictures, those paintings behind you are incredible. Who painted those? Well, guess who. Thank you. But they both have really dramatic stories behind them. I'll just highlight the one. This is called the Ghost Breast, about a breast cancer survivor who lost a breast to surgery but felt there was like the ghost of her breast left. So I tried to create that in that. But hey, I want to say we're already joined by Helen who says, hey, Pam. Hello, everyone. Hey, Jay. Hello, lovelies. Great to see Helen's joined us. Now, Jay, you have got so much going on. But before we get to the Overtones and then what's trending, I just want to ask, what's it been like with lockdown loosening? Hasn't it made life a bit easier for you and your family now? Yeah. Do you know what? It's one of those things where we're still a little bit kind of trying to get used to it. I think we've been in that bubble where, you know, as you know, Pam, three days a week I'm up sort of commuting to my radio show, you know, the big show on bfbs. So it's kind of, I've been out and about through that time as a kind of key worker. So. But it's just like the normal life, things going to shops, you know, going out to days out and things like that that we've not been able to sort of do. And that's, that's the thing really is like getting, getting the kids out and, and doing that. And that's something that's just been so amazing, you know, just, you know, just going to go into the park and going to the farm with the kids, it's just, I, it's lush. Because Franklin is my two year old son. You know, he's so young and he's the majority of the year that he's experienced and coming into consciousness, has kind of almost just been around the house and of course going out for walks and certain things, but now going to like certain farms. We've got a wonderful place near us called Puxton park and it's got all the, the animals and loads of different rides and different things and he just absolutely loves it, you know, and it's just, it's gorgeous to see. So, yeah, thoroughly enjoying ourselves and hopefully this is the beginning of something that's just going to keep on opening and hopefully we'll be out and about and doing a lot more shows from a music perspective too. Live music. Well, exactly, and we'll be coming on to that in a minute. But I just wanted to say there's been a lot of worry for people with children Franklin's age, toddlers during lockdown. Of course, Nova, your older child has more understanding, but he must be kind of reveling in actually being able to be taken places and petting farms and whatever. Yeah, he really has. And, and also, you know, not just Franklin because it's almost like Franklin's discovering all these things for the first time again. You know, it's. And, but also he said his name. Look and he can see you. Oh, hello again. Franklin, I just saw you a few minutes ago. Say it again. What is that car? Oh, is there a car out there? And tell me, is your daddy fun to play with? And a scooter. Okay. I was just wondering if you would spill the beans on your dad and whether or not he's fun to play with. Franklin, who's your favorite group? What's your favorite music? Lots, lots of People joining in. Anne Marie says, guten mid dog mid talk. However you say that in. In Dutch, I think. And Charlotte Lamb is saying hello. She's liking the orange. Yeah. So we've got the. Some of your major fans here. They're amazing. And they're saying hello to Franklin. Oh, he's adorable. Although he didn't give me a scoop on whether Daddy was a fun daddy or not a fun daddy. I'm a fun daddy. I'm a fun daddy always. I think that's the problem. I need to be a little bit less fun at times. Yeah. A little more strict. Yeah, totally. Well, listen, let's get on to the Overtones now. You've just released Also A Night True Member, and my lovely producer Cena has a clip of it. So let's listen to that and then hear about the Overtones news. I think we're gonna get a clip. When you love someone, it's natural, not demanding. And there's one thing, and I'm proud to say I found it you. I'm so glad that we've reached an understanding Now I know my heart is safe with you. Party. Come on, let's party. I cannot wait to see you guys live. So, Franklin, pretty cool tune. Who's that by? Frankie? Who was that singing? I think it was Daddy. He's fascinated at the level. There we go. Overtones for the Overtones. Rock the house with the Overtones. Funky. You want to hear it again? Well, unfortunately, we need to talk to Daddy about lots of other things. I love that. Charlotte's saying. I absolutely love that. And Anne Marie is laughing. Yeah, that's the way to tear everybody up. We need that. Yeah. You know what? We're so excited to just get out and just get performing again. Do you know what I mean? And it's the. Of course, the album at the moment. We've been for. For the last 18 months, really. We've been working on the album, which is available to pre order right now, including the deluxe version. The deluxe version it is. You know, they're signed. All the signed copies are available on our website, so. Theabestones TV and. Cool. I'm gonna get one of those. I want the signed one. You can have the same one, Dr. Pam. Yeah. So we're, you know, we're just mega excited about it all, really. Dr. Pam, I've got. I've got Victoria at the door now, who's going to take over child duty. So I love live radio. You see if people are watching, you're going out and you're Doing what you have to do. Absolutely, absolutely. Sorry, sorry, Pam. But yeah, Anne Marie says the album is. Is it 30th of July? So is that the actual release date? It is indeed. Yeah, it is indeed. We've got a bit of a run up and it was just delayed by a month slightly because we wanted to get. We had so many tracks and so many things that we wanted to do, you know, and, and it was just like, oh gosh, how can we make these things happen? And unfortunately we couldn't get it all in time for the originally, so we just moved back back a month and was able to get things like cassettes and, you know, the, the T shirts and the deluxe version out there, which we're just mega excited about. So yeah, just head across the website and take a look guys. It's. It's ridiculous as well what we've been able to do with like the value of stuff. Being able to, you know, attach a sign physical and a digital deluxe version, like, you know, I think the Deluxe is about 499, which is nuts because you can't get a 99 ice cream for that nowadays. I don't think we're making any money on this, but it's brilliant because it's not about that. It's about us being able to create new music. So when we get out and tour, which is what we love to do best, people can enjoy some of the music they've been listening at home. Well, that's what I want to find out first, some of the messages. Helen says she's got the cassette on order. Let's see. See what Charlotte says. She has both signed versions on pre order. And also I haven't been out since October, so can't wait to see the boys live again. You see, this gives people a sense of, oh my goodness, this is going to be the most incredible thing to see live music. So tell me, how excited are you guys to actually perform again and how much are you rehearsing together right now? Do you know what? It's. We're probably together on a sort of weekly basis doing different things and you know, it's, it's like, it's just lush now because we're, you know, we were always in a bubble and. But there's always that thing where you're in a bubble and you know, we, of course, the COVID testing and all that, but it feels like there was always that sense that it's like you're almost doing wrong because you're together in a bubble. But we, we weren't we? You know, it was all totally legal. We were allowed to do it and all that sort of stuff, but. But now you're just seeing everybody else, you know, rehearsing in parks together and like seeing everybody sort of walk by and, you know, rehearsing in a park. Any Greater London parks, I want to go to that park. The weather's just, you know, it's wonderful. I think we've got a bit of a heat wave coming this weekend as well, so. That's lovely. So, yeah, it's just been, you know, it's just been so great. Like it. Yeah, we felt like there's been a bit of a cloud, you know, and as. As, you know, we just love to bring the sunshine, but, you know, it's. Yeah, it's. Hopefully now, guys, you know, we. Yeah, we can expect really good things to happen and. And get back out to touring and, you know, experiencing life as we used to in. In. In. In some ways. Hopefully. Exactly. Now, Lindsay says we will hear the new live tracks at the Concord Club as the album is out after the previous. Before this show in July. So. So are you talking about the Concord in Brighton or. Or which Concord? So this is the Concord in Eastleigh, which is near Portsmouth. Okay. I haven't been to that one. I've been to Concord, Brighton, but not that one. It is amazing, Pam. Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. I think we're there. I mean, I'm sure people correct me, but I think we're on the 4th and 5th of July, two nights. It's a really special place for us and. And we love it. It's really intimate and. And yeah, we could just. Yeah, we can't wait. And we will be performing some of the new tracks there, guys. Yeah, absolutely. As we will be for our online show, which is happening a little bit later on in June. So it's happening on the 15th of June, and it's a kind of worldwide global show, online show that we've done for everybody and you know, and we're performing some of the. The new tracks on that as well. So. And what are people buying tickets for the online show? Where do they get these? You know, they are. They. They can head to stable.com which is s t a b a l dot com. And what they can do is when they go there, they can buy an online ticket to the show, but also they can purchase the album from there as well. And that, you know, there's a bundle where they can get a T shirt. But. But actually, you know, for. For all of the sign stuff, the digital stuff, just go to our website, the Overtones tv and, you know, every sale for us counts towards chart positions and stuff. So come. I think it's the 7th of August, you know, we're looking to try and, you know, do, do as best we possibly can, you know, in the charts. And it's a really difficult climate at the moment. So, yeah, we're hoping people can support us and, and we can try and do best we can there. So we'll see how we get. It's not all about, it's not all about that. Of course it's not. But yeah, after 10 years that, you know, the boys 10 years ago had a number four in the album charts and so we'd, we'd love to, yeah, we'd love, yeah, we'd love to get a top 10, you know, we would, that would be incredible. Well, we'll give out that information again at the end of the interview where we can do it. I've got a couple questions that Helen had told me that, you know, I should ask you. And the first one is, what is your embarrassing childhood memory? I have one and I want to hear one from you. Okay. All right. Oh, gosh. Go on, you tell me yours first, Dr. Phone, because I want to know how embarrassing I could go. Okay. Well, it was like a summer sports day and I was only about five and we were doing a sack race and I misunderstood the instructions and I thought you only had to run one length, but you actually had to turn around and come back. So I hopped my little heart out in that sack, got to that line first and kind of jumped around excited, not really noticing all the other five and six year olds were turning around and going back for the second lap. And when I realized I was, I was, I can remember that was kind of the first time I felt embarrassed as a child that I just thought I had won. Yay. And I was like, oh, no. Oh, bless you. And the moral of the story is listen to instructions, children. And I would have heard twice, do the length twice. Bless you. Well, I suppose my embarrassing story is, is kind of like quite the opposite to that message and that is like, don't listen sometimes to family members. Oh, really? Yeah. And I've, you know, my, my grandfather Walters, who many of the people that are tuned in will, will know that I've, I, I, I've spoken about so many times because he was such a character and such a massive influence and he had a massive impact on my life and myself as a character. You Know, and, and he was the sort of family photographer, so he loved taking pictures of everybody. You know, like, he was that guy that was kind of like, you know, whenever the family's around, he's. He's taking pictures. And then, you know, when technology was able to provide it, he was the one that was making the kind of calendars with the family pictures just, you know, to give everybody. And, but he was a very talented photographer and, and I believe somewhere you, you'll probably find photos because he actually had some put on the BBC website, BBC Wales website of his sunsets that he used to take it. We used to get up every morning and go and take pictures of the sunset down at Sunder Spot harbor where we lived. Vivian Walters was his name, Viv Walters. Anyway, when he did take family photos to get everybody laughing and this was specifically for the adults, he used to say, everybody say condoms. Right? Okay. So, so he said everybody say condoms, which was highly inappropriate for us children. And then the minute he got us, he used to say, gotcha. And so anyway, the, the embarrassing story goes, and, and every time. And I, I picked up as a child that every time he used to say, everyone would, would laugh hysterically and, you know, there'd be a lot of fun and banter and so anyway, I, I was brought up in a Catholic primary school with nuns. And. And so anyway, I must have been. I must have been no older than Nova, around 7, 8 years old, conscious to the world, you know, knew what was going on. And so I picked this up. So we had a school photograph and all of, all of the nuns were collected behind us and the photographer, the whole school was there and I wasn't shy. And, and as soon as he took the photo, I said, everybody say condoms. Oh my goodness. Did you get in trouble with the nuns? I was, yeah. To which, of course, crying from laughing, I was, I was pull. Pulled it. I was pulled into the headmaster's office with the nuns and my, My, My mother was asked to come into school to say. To suggest where on earth my son had got this from. So anyway, but it was. Yeah, it was. That beats my story. Mine was so innocent compared to yours. I didn't know what it meant. I didn't know what it meant until you were 30 years old, what it meant. I still don't know what it means. I still don't want. It means we've got Helen saying no and Charlotte no. And they're all laughing. Everybody's commenting with laughter. Yeah, absolutely. But now I was going to say the next Question Helen had for us was, what's the best advice you've ever been given? My. Again, there's a couple of. There was a. There was a couple of bits as I follow on again from the Walters. My granddad used to say to me, and he always. He was a, he was a very successful businessman. My, My granddad an entrepreneur in many ways, and his, his ability to communicate with people and motivate and inspire people was something that I always looked up to. His character. You know, he spoke, but he always used to say to me, james, it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. That's always, always stuck to me. Always stuck to me because it's, you know, it's so, so true. And do you know what? I've been blessed. I've been really blessed to work with some incredible people over the years. A lot, A lot of people that, you know, a lot of names that I could drop, but also a lot of people that. Drop a few. Go on, drop a few. You know, you know, the likes of Booker T. Justin, Tim Blake, you know, like John Legend, like, people, you know, who have been really, really successful, but in fact, that have just been the most amazing people, you know, and, and really gave to other people time. They gave their time to people and, and, but also some people who, you wouldn't know and, and had equally as a big of influence. And that's always come to me. My, my dad always says to me, in all things, be humble. And, and I kind of think those two, again, always go together. They always go together. So that explains your personality, darling. I love your personality. I mean, it's just incredible. People are saying, you know, Helen's saying, that's absolutely so true, love that. And, and Marie saying, you know, about. It's, it's, it. Oh, it's just gone on screen. It's nice to be important, but more important to not be nice. And saying. Great Charlotte saying, grandparents are so wise. Yes, they are. Yeah, they are. It'. It's so true, you know, that it's, it's. Yeah. I was very fortunate to have. Yeah. To have two, two grandparents and two grandmothers who, again, just were so influential in my life and who I am today. So. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, to answer Helen's question, my little bit of advice that I had from my late father when my eldest was a teenager, like, do you remember Harry Enfield and Kevin, that teenager that used to grunt? Okay. Well, although that was before my son was a teenager, probably just before when that came out, yeah, quite a bit before when he was a teenager, he was like that. And I used to say to my dad, oh my gosh, dad, what do I do? And he said, meet his unreasonableness with your reasonableness. That is, don't rise to the bait. Don't get upset. And he just grunts at you, just stay calm and stay reasonable. And actually, Jay, it really helped and I just will never forget that. It's so true. I think that's such a, you know, for, for any parents out there. Like, you know, and Victoria and I are kind of like constantly reminding ourselves with it when like everybody, we get tested, you know, from the kids. It's kind of like you react with negativity and you react with these things and, and actually it just doesn't help. It doesn't work. It gets humor wound up. It's not great. So. You're so right. That's a great saying, Pam. Yeah, even more be, be even more positive and. Yeah. Well, thank you to Helen for those questions. I must get Charlotte now. Marie giving me questions. Next time you're on the show. Now over to trending big stories. Trending. The first one, Dominic Cummings getting his revenge. So I want to open that up to revenge. Have you ever seen someone, you know take revenge and what happened? Because I have a story about a girlfriend. But I want to hear your thoughts on revenge and whether you think it's ever worth getting revenge on someone. No, I really don't think it is. I don't. I feel, you know, and it's funny you should just kind of say what you said in regards to reacting to maybe negative situations in a broader scope. I think that's, that's the only way that you can react. I think if, if someone has maybe got to you in the past or done something to you that's really, really upset, set you, you should just try and utilize that to inspire your own journey and, and not focus in on whatever they've done to get them back. It's not about them, it's about you. It's about your life journey and how you can be better every single day. You know, it's, you know, I, I know we're not talking politically, but it was just completely unbelievable to see someone like Dominic Cummings who's obviously got his own agendas and his own things to, to talk about, but to speak so openly and terribly. It was mind blowing, wasn't it, about the government, about the Prime Minister and the Health Secretary, who, you know, in, during unprecedented times are trying to do everything they possibly can to do best by us, to do best by the economy, which equally is with us. It was just mind blowing how he got that free speech in front of people to do that. But equally, I understand that he, he, you know, he needed to do his own things. But aside from that, you know, going back to what I said, I think, you know, revenge. I believe in karma. I believe that you've just gotta just put that past you and just crack on. Use it to fuel your own journeys in a positive way. Interesting you mentioned karma because Anne Maria says karma will find its way. Focus on yourself. Charlotte says the biggest revenge is to be happy. Helen says isn't nice and best to not react at all. And I have to say I deal with this in my work a lot, as you can imagine, as a coach and psychologist. And I always say to people that short term game of thinking, yeah, I've got that person back. Long term isn't. It's just not healthy. It comes back on you. And I've got. I'll tell you what happened with my girlfriend. She found out her husband was having an affair. And, and the affair, because he was a project manager. Manager and would go around the countryside managing projects in different locations that the affair was conducted during working hours. So he would come home on time, but where he had been, he'd be hitching up with this other woman. Well, she dubbed a minute at work. But what happens? She had two young children, he loses his job, she doesn't get the financial support and all just to kind of go, I told you so. And then of course it came back on her and of course she regretted it. But. And I always say to people, please run what you want to do past someone. Let them, someone you trust their judgment. And they'll probably tell you don't do it. You know, and that's the general feeling about revenge, is don't do it. Just make yourself move forward on your own journey. Absolutely. Absolutely. So a lesson to any cheaters out there, someone might dub you in it, even if it comes back on them. Now the next story we wanted to tackle is the Friends Reunited has been trending on and off for about, you know, two weeks ever since everybody knew the Friends Reunited show was going to take place. Now, the importance of friendships. I think people hold that television show in their hearts because it was all about the thick and thin that Friends go through. And I. With your friendships, how do you, you know, how do you feel you've got friends that you can count on that you can go through thick and thin with. Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, again, I sort of been blessed with so many friendships during my time in, you know, from the armed forces, from back at home, you know, and the armed forces community is very much like that because you spend incredible lengths of time together and then you won't see that person for a number of years and then you'll bump into that person. It's like no time has passed. And I think, you know, again, I, I, I would hate to feel like I'm, I'm preaching or. Because I'm not, or giving advice because I'm not. Because I'm not, you know, I'm not what you are, you know, Dr. Pam, like a trained psychologist and amazing at what you do. But I kind of feel like, I kind of feel like every experience negative of maybe friends that I've really had that have been close and then maybe we've fallen out or we've drifted apart is because of that, because of life just moves on and you drift apart. Maybe not from any circumstances or, you know, reasons, but it's, you know, it's because of your own journey and it's your own thing. And, you know, if those people come back into your life, then amazing, like, celebrate the times that you had together and celebrate the, the things that you still have in common. But if they don't, then don't, you know, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. You know, I think that comes into your, your life for a reason and for, for the moments that they do. I totally agree. And it can be bittersweet like that with, you know, sometimes there are natural, organic reasons, as people say, why friendships come to an end, or sometimes there can be something toxic that happens. And I think when you've got a good friendship, just celebrate that. There's nothing. In America, we say body shifter. The person who would help you shift a body in the middle of the night. Those, the friends you hang on to. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Absolutely. And Helen are talking about close friends, you know, and, and a couple that they hardly ever speak to either. So, you know, you know, we all, you know, have friendships that kind of meander back and forth from really intense to maybe a little bit more independent. Now we're running out of time. Quickly. Oh, my gosh, very quick. You know, the writer, you know, Eric Carle, has died at 91. He wrote hundreds of books, the Very Hungry Caterpillar being one of them. And I wanted to ask, do you have a special book from childhood that you, you know, loved in childhood, do you know what? It's James and the Giant Peach. Because I always related to the name James, I think. And it's weird, isn't it? It is weird because children do relate to that when it's their own name. Do you know what? And. And it's. It's so apt, isn't it? In a world when we're talking about diversity and we're talking about, you know, just being all inclusive and making sure that people are seeing themselves, you know, represented. And it's so weird. And I know that's on a real small. Yeah, it's completely different because it's just a name. Right? But it's so important because again, even now it. I look back at that being my favorite book because. Because it was like, oh, you know, something for you. A connection. Yeah, totally, totally. And. And so, yeah, it's. It's just a funny one, isn't it? But every time I pe. Every time I see a peach, I'm like, james, I love it. And you're wearing kind of peachy orange. Maybe it's a bit bright red, actually, but it is coming out orange now. Listen, thank you so much for your time, Jay. Let's remind everybody they can find you on. On social media at J. James. The Undertones are at the Underscore. Undertone. Overtones. Undertones Overtones on Twitter, but on Instagram, they're. They're the same on it. Yeah, we're the same on Instagram. So it's at the Underscore Overtones. And then on Facebook, it's just the Overtones. But do you know what? Just come over to the website, the Overtones tv, and you'll see everything there. We're doing loads of different things, I think today with. As a throwback Thursday, we're asking people to get involved. If you've ever been to an Overtone show, just get on the socials and share your story with us. There's loads of pictures from the Overtones tour shows from the last 10 years, and it's just wonderful. It's wonderful to see. So come and connect with us. You can connect me at JJ @J James. Obviously, I do my own radio show. You know, just come and get involved. You know, we're all friends and. And thanks so much for having me, Dr. Pam. It's always a pleasure to come and chat with you on here. And you know what? I'd love to chat again on men's radio with you, just because a couple of weeks ago, you know, I had a vasectomy And I know it's a bit of a. It's a bit of a dirty word, but, you know, I'd certainly like to chat with you about that, Dr. Pam, at some point. I'm going to get you back on soon and we'll talk about that. Thank you so much, darling. Lots of love. And now I'm going to move on to my next guest, who is what was a Fleet street editor and is a journalist and columnist with the Daily Star and Women's Own. You cannot miss her on all the main TV and radio shows. I can't believe I got 15 minutes of her time. Now she's on Newsom on social media. And I'm delighted to welcome the lovely and formidable Dawn Newsom to the show. Hello. Hello. It's so good to see you. Hi, Apam. Thank you so, so much for having me on. It's an absolute pleasure to join you today. Thank you. And that is my favorite jacket you're wearing of yours. I've seen you in that before, like on other shows. I love it. There's a limit to how many jackets I have. I have way too many red ones. So I'm trying to use different colours now. But, you know, after a lifetime of working on newspapers where black was the uniform, it's really tricky to break out of it and wear nice, bright, cheerful colors. Well, we're going to be talking about your tabloid journey, but first I have to say I'm going to have to call you Hot Dawn Newsom from now on because a male pal of mine saw that you're going to be on the show and messaged me saying, she's so hot. Oh my God, I dress a bit hot. Don Neeson. Well, I have to say, Pam, recently I haven't been that hot because the British summer is delivering its true freezing cold conditions, isn't it? So, yeah, actually officially the cold dawn Nissan today mostly getting better. Mind you've got a secret fan. Now listen, you have had or you have quite a career and tell me how your Fleet street journey started. It started really unusually because I, you know, there's no, there's no journalists in my family. My mum was a cleaner and she worked in factories. My dad was a lorry driver. Basically he was a driver. So there's no history of it in family. No one in my family family went to university and I just always, from being a little girl, wanted to be a journalist. I mean, I remember, Pam, when I was, I think I must have been about 10 or 11 years old, I wrote to one of the big female names on Fleet street on national newspapers at the time. And that was at Marjorie Proops. I mean, you know. Yeah. Your older listeners might remember. And this has to be, as I said, has to be around about 1970, 1975. Give my age away, you know, saying, I want to be a she. She must have honestly thought I was mad. I want to be a journalist. How do I be a journalist? And you know what she wrote back to me? Pan, my mum still has this letter to that very day. I know. And for Christmas that year, I was brought my very first typewriter, which. Which makes me sad. I mean, you'd have to explain to kids now what a typewriter actually is as opposed to a computer. I know, I know, but I mean, it makes me sound incredibly sad. But, you know, I just. I loved reading, I loved writing, I love newspapers. I used to make my own little magazines and newspapers as a little kid, you know, just coloring them in and stuff. So it's something I always wanted to do. But obviously when you are, I mean, it sounds like a cliche, but when you're a working class kid, it wasn't, you know, no one went to university. I mean, you know, the school I went to, there were two girls from our sixth form who went to university. Now if you don't go to university, it's like unheard of. What? Why aren't you going? Why don't you go? So we just didn't go to university. It wasn't expected. It wasn't even a conversation we had in our home. So I did what, I don't know, the old school route, I guess I started at the bottom. I started making tea and filing stuff and, you know, doing whatever people wanted me to do. And my, my very first staff job was actually on the national magazine, on Woman's Own magazine, which I know, which I love. The fact that I still work there and I write a column for. That's incredible. Had a break in between, so, I mean, I was a baby. But you know what I think with most things in life, Pam, if you start at the bottom and you learn from scratch, you really learn the basics and the ropes, it's going to hold you good steady in whatever career you choose in life. I agree so much. And I'm going to say, Helen says, hey, Dawn. Charlotte says, lovely colored jacket. Yeah, pink. Do you feel, you know, that, you know, obviously that benefited you being willing to start at the bottom and do everything it took to get notice. When did you get the kind of first break after that? With you got a staff job there and that. But then how did you end up with a tabloid newspaper? Because they are hard to get into. They are incredibly hard. But I was very, very lucky to work with some incredibly talented, strong, determined women when I was a very young female journalist. And you know, you know, the likes of our, you know, Eve Pollard, Patsy Chapman, Bridget Rowe, I mean these are named sort of like, you know, Patsy heads of the newsletter world when it was really unheard of, Eve Pollard at the Express. So there were women for me to look up to as well. And these were strong, feisty women, they took no prisoners. And I was lucky enough to be asked by one of these, K. Goddard, who was working on the sun newspaper at the time. And she asked me to go from the magazine to the Sun. And this must have been, yeah, it must have been the early 90s, around about 1992, 93. So I was still in my very early 20s. And honestly, Pam, walking onto the news floor at the sun at the time, it was the towel end of Kelvin Mackenzie's reign. So it was, it was a, like a real, another cliche but a real baptism of fire. And I remember reading an interview with another female journalist who went on to be, you know, an amazing editor. And she was saying that the newsrooms at the time she started a good 10 years before she goes, yeah, they were full of men, but it was like a forest was full of trees. It was what it was. You didn't even think about it that much. So, you know, it's like, as I said, it's like everything in lifetime, once you get in somewhere. And as I said, I was absolutely terrified. And I went, you know, funny enough, when I left my newspaper, I mean, Kelvin Mackenzie actually took me out for a coffee and you know, even now I'm a middle aged woman who's sort of like being around for like decades, I was still terrified. So it's, it's, I think, you know, you've got to, you know, as you would know yourself, you've got to feel the fear and do it in any case. So, you know, you know, the more something scares you, the more you want to overcome it and, you know, you do it. And I was just incredibly lucky, as I said, to work with so many inspirational women who paved the way for women like me. And hopefully, I mean we are now in a situation where I was just looking it up. We have, I think of the 22 daily and Sunday national titles in the UK, excluding Scotland, eight of them are edited by women. So more than I would expect. Yeah. I mean, you know, of the 10 daily national titles, 40% of them are edited by women now, you know, so, girls, we are getting there. Yeah. I was going to say, how about the sexism, though? When I first started doing a little TV, you know, about 1995 maybe, then I started pitching to find a magazine column. As a young psychologist, I wrote to 30 magazines and it was Sunday Magazine, Sunday magazine from the sun gave me my first break, but I can. And then I got a column, and then I got a column in the News, sorry, Sunday magazine from the News the World. Then I got a column in the News of the World. But let me tell you, there were times where I would go in for lunches or whatever and feel very uncomfortable with some of the men. You know, just, you know, because I wrote a lot about sex and that were just. They would just do the tabloid stuff on me about sex. And I just, you know, I had to be really just tough, not take the BS and crack on with what I was doing, because it was going well. You know, I was at the News of the World for many years, which. Yeah. Which was an incredibly tough place to work. I mean. I mean, no. 1 look, not just for women, for young male journalists starting out in the industry, it was a very tough, scary world. It was dominated by alpha males who just thought anybody who was sort of like, you know, a whippersnapper, male or female, was just really not. There were some exceptions. There were some very, very good people. As I have said already, the thing I found with sexism when I first started, and in fact all through my career, and I'm going to be completely honest here, is I never really experienced anything too bad, to be honest with you, Pam, because I went into, like. I go into everything in life not actually thinking about my sex. It was like, I am just a person. I am a journalist. I'm going to do a very good job. I know I'm good at what I do, so I'm not going to. I'm not going to think too much about my sex because I think as soon as you start putting yourself in boxes, whether it's class or race or sex or even age these days, then you encourage other people to put you in a box. So I behaved. I didn't look, I didn't sell out and behave like one of the lads. I mean, because I guess I was more tomboyish. In any case, that sort of came naturally to me. But I didn't play the, oh, my God, I'm a Girl, I can't do this. And I think not just in journalism and on national newspapers, in any career, as soon as you forget about putting boundaries in front of yourself, then you can overcome the boundaries other people try to put in front of you. So you know what, Pam? I just got my head down and got on with it. And I think because I had that attitude and you know, you give as good as you get, but this applies to young boys and the girls working. They're both sexes. You give as good as you get. You don't take any, as you say, bs. And then, you know, people do respect that and you get on. But it's the one thing, and look, this is going to sound terribly incorrect, Pam, but I think the one thing that worries me now with lots of youngsters of either sex going into journalism, newspaper journalism, or most careers, is they expect too much. They almost expect people to tiptoe around them. I mean, maybe we have, you know, because everything's gone on, wrapped, you know, some of the younger generations in cotton wool. And I think they're in for a big shock when they, you know, when you leave universities where you, you know, people are, you know, if people has a different opinion to you, they're not allowed to speak. You have safe spaces. It's, you are morally colored to a certain extent. I think when you get out in the outside world of work, as you know, Pam, in any job, you're in for a real wake up or a real shock. And while I agree that, you know, you know, sort of like, you know, offensive behavior is wrong, people are going to have different opinions to you, not everybody is going to be nice. I totally agree with you. It's interesting. Both my children are in the music industry and they've been in the music industry, say for a decade each. And they talk about the young interns they are now, you know, who are helping them. And they say things like, wow, you know, they actually think they can clock off at six in the music industry. And I'm going, wow, when I was in newspapers, I never clocked off at 6. You know, I was interviewing people for columns, you know, at 9 at night after they put their kids to bed or at the weekend. And they, they have been surprised themselves by just people. Just, you know, they are, my children are millennials. But the generation underneath them, which I can't remember, is it Generation X? Yeah, absolutely. And I've got to agree with you. I think we've got to find the in between from what you and I have grown up with and what the new generation expects because they expect what I think is too much. Now we're going to, I didn't realize we've only got like two more minutes. So I've got to ask. Oh my God, that's gone so fast. I've got to ask you. You've given great already in just sharing what you, your, your career. Any top tips for anyone listening who might want to go into journalism? You never give up. Never ever give up. I'm a firm believer. You know, as I said, I'm from a working class background. I didn't go to university, I didn't even go to college to study journalism because you know, my parents couldn't afford, you didn't get a grant so my parents couldn't afford it. So you know, even if you're going to go into a newspaper floor or a magazine floor or, or a digital startup now media startup, you make the tea, you file papers, you do the errands, you learn while you're there. And the one thing, Pam, just quickly, I know you're with time, but the one thing now that breaks my heart is that everybody is working remotely like this and youngsters are not getting that hands on experience of working in whatever industry of, you know, their elders, not necessarily their betters, but their elders. And I think it's a very, very valuable learning curve to work with people that are been there and done that. No, I think you're absolutely right. I, funny, I just didn't think I was going to agree with everything you said through the whole interview. It's been fabulous having you, Don. Of course people can find you on social media at Don Meesome and, and we'll see you on TV screens and radio shows wherever they look. I'm, I'm on talk, I'm on talk radio tonight live with the legend that is James. Well so please tune in. Say hello to James for me. I will do. Lots of love. Thank you so much, Dr. Pam. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. And that was Don Mesom. Now last but not least in the what I kind of call my psychology slot because we tend to always have a psychologist. I have the psychologist, presenter, writer, diversity ambassador and person again like, like dawn who you will see on so many TV shows as a psychologist. You can find her on Twitter at therealangelam and on Instagram Angela TV. Her website is Angela.com and I'm delighted that Angela Mutanda joins me now and we can say hello. Hello. How are you? I'm so well. I'm so happy you could join me. And when I emailed you, I mean, you. I was going, do you remember me? Because I think it was about 15 years ago. You were on one of my old LBC shows. You know, it was a long time ago. And you are a legend, Pam. How can I forget you? I mean, and I see you everywhere and I read your stuff. You're brilliant. Like I said, you're a psychology rock star. No, you are. We can argue about it now, Angela. It's so interesting. So when I was asking you what topics we might cover in the psychology slot, you said how clients of yours are talking about major changes they have decided to make during lockdown. So tell me, what sort of things have come up? Oh, it's been fascinating, not just for my clients, but for me as well. I mean, I think when we all went into lockdown, we had the same thing in common, which was survival mode. So let's just follow these simple rules and just get on with it. And after time went on, I think what started to happen is all our usual distractions got cut off, whether it's leisure, pleasure, going to a place of worship, going to the clubs, whatever it could be. And we had ourselves to ourselves and time to think. And I think that headspace created. It was actually some crisis for people where they were reflecting on their own lives. And I'm talking about people who haven't necessarily been, you know, terribly affected by Covid. I mean, we've all been directed, directly affected or indirectly affected. But I'm talking about people here who have been following the rules, haven't got any family members who are particularly ill with it or themselves haven't been ill with it, but they've just been, like, stuck in their full walls with either on their own, with their own thoughts or with family members. And they have really gone through that kind of cycle, through that crisis of what am I doing with my life? Do I love my job? Am I passionate about my relationship? Where am I going? Why do I put up with my children treating me? You name it, I've heard it. Yes. Well, that's interesting is I have two from. From certain clients, particularly single people, because I do a lot of date coaching and a lot have been sharing things like, you know, what, realizing what they're really looking for, rather than just kind of scattergun dating, as I call it, where they just have a zillion dates and hope that they land on something, you know, good. Yeah. And a lot of them have felt in terms of what they're looking for that having been through, as you described, but we've all been through that. Their goals are different now, and they want to not just try dating with anyone, but actually really look for the core values that they've kind of discovered in their lives. So that's been really interesting to see that change with singles. But back to, you know, some of the work you've been doing and the clients you've heard from. What. How have you guided clients who say, maybe realize they don't have a very good relationship with their partner or family member? What. What's been happening? I think what people who've come to me have initially responded with is with panic. And it's that sense of, oh, my God, I don't want to be in the situation anymore. And a response to that panic has been, I want to do something today, I have to do something now. Yeah. And what. Actually, it's an interesting process because what my work has been about is actually slowing people down and going back to almost brass tacks and having reforming a relationship with themselves a bit like you're talking about there. It's, you know, not the scattergun approach, but what is going on with me? What's my process? Do I have a plan? What are my feelings telling me what's going on in my thought process? What's this panic actually broadcasting to me? So once you slow people down into that process, they just take a breath and then they step back and say, actually, yeah, it's what's really been going on. The root cause for me has been that I haven't been communicating with my partner. I haven't really been saying what's going on. And here we are stuck in this house together in silence, and that communication is telling them a lot that they're not happy. So the reaction, almost that stress reaction, is to, I want to get the hell out of here as soon as I can. But actually, when you slow that down, when you say to someone, your silence speaks volumes. So what you want to do actually is to sit down with your partner and have an honest discussion. What do you want to say? And giving them that sense of control and agency and that kind of locus of control, you can say what you want to say. Let's write it down first. Be specific. Those kinds of things have just enabled people just to slow down and make sense of what they're going through. Because I think when there's panic on the outside, you know, we have a world that feels a little bit scary or has felt a bit scary. Then the world, your internal world, also feels scary. That's double the stress. So nowhere feels safe. So the therapy actually has felt the safe space to slow down and reflect on what's really going on for me and how can I take steps to make it different. And having a plan and doing your research and speaking to your. All these things have been stuff that I've been working with over the last 13, 14 months and people listening who don't know anything about therapy. So you mentioned, like, getting people to, you know, think about what they want to say and writing it down. So describe more about that. Well, for some people, it can just be an overwhelming sense of there's a lot going on in my head, and I just can't focus. And sometimes for people, just writing down how you feel, like a feelings diary, can enable you to just take it out of here, where it's just churning around and you're ruminating and putting it on the page so that you can actually look at it and think, oh, that's what I'm feeling, and then prioritize that. What's the number one thing that's really bugging me or that I'm really concerned about, and then just really sort of chunking it down so that it's not that overwhelming. And once you get to that space where you're doing one thing at a time, I will use sometimes some cognitive behavioral therapy. So just looking at how your thoughts and feelings are affecting your behavior. And I think for some people, that's been really helpful, whether it's thinking about a career change or wanting to talk to their boss, for instance, about doing much more remote working, just having a plan. And that gives you a sense of, oh, I have control, because the world has felt very out of control. I totally agree with that. I think it's a real method when people don't realize. They think, oh, I'm just writing down a few feelings or whatever. But I always say when you think in ink like that, it kind of clarifies it when you're actually looking at it. And I think you're absolutely right. It gives people an opportunity to prioritize and think, well, what is that first goal? Looking at all these things I've put down, and I just think people don't realize how valuable that can be. Um, and I. I often get clients reflecting back to me saying, wow, I did really find it helpful. And. And I'm so glad that, you know, you're. You're advocating that. That kind of method to start slowing down the mind, you know, yeah. Now, I mean, it very much depends on the person. I mean, different people respond to different methods. So it's finding out who that person is and what they're looking for. Yeah. Now, the next step. It'd be great to get some tips from you for this. So once people have maybe, let's say they're having a problem with their partner as you described, they've had silence, and you're locked down, and it's not good. It's an unhealthy silence. It's not a nice, calm silence where you both love each other. Once they've kind of prioritized their goals, what people often ask me, and I would love to know what you say, what do I first say to my partner when we sit down to chat? You know, how do I find the words? I think people are always worried about offending or hurting their partner's feelings when they don't want to do that. They just want to make progress. So what do you recommend? Yeah. Isn't it funny, though, because I've said to people, you know, that that man or that guy in your life saw you giving birth, but it's really hard for you to sit down and say those words because you don't want to hurt them. And so my stance is always come from a loving place. So I, you know, I love you and we have a wonderful relationship, but they're things that I think could be better. And I sometimes struggle when you don't listen to me. So if you come from that I Space. Yes, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And you couch it from a loving space, because if your partner says that we need to talk, that's very threatening. It does feel very threatening. Yes. Yeah. Because you think, well, something is wrong. And often if you want to sit down and talk to your partner, I bet you your partner already feels that there's something going on that isn't working out for both of you. So they already know. They're already pretty primed. So coming from that I space. But it's a loving space. Can begin that conversation. And you don't have to solve it all. All in that one conversation. It's a starting space. And I also say to people, be very specific as well. So don't. Just two. Two really good points. But you know, that first one of not going in with the expectation you're going to solve something in one conversation I think is really important to flag up. Absolutely. And. And, yeah. Sorry. Well, I was gonna say. And then. And then your. Your. Your next point you know about. Then you Know, you've already broken it down in goals in your own mind and you can, you've highlighted a positive. You don't expect to sort it in one conversation. And in that coming from that loving place you describe you, you kind of present maybe you know, generally, like as you said, I don't feel you listen to me. Yeah. And it gives the person a chance to say, well, when. And you have to then have little examples ready. I think sometimes the children, you don't listen to me about the children or something. So yeah, it's sort of being prepared for each stage. Yes. And if you're on the receiving end, it can be very difficult to be in that space. So what I say to people also is to engage in active listening. So rather than waiting for your turn to speak and go, yeah, but you do X, Y and Z wrong. And you really get on my back about it and I can't, you're gonna get nowhere. It's just gonna go to the defense space. So if you can actively listen. So I hear what you're saying and you know, tell me more, I get it, I've heard you. Then, then it's a two way process rather than, you know, feeling, oh God, I just have to wait to kind of punch back with my words. So I think it's the dance of give and take, which can be so difficult, but when you break it down and it comes from a loving space, it can work out really well. And I think I love the way you were doing that, that finger pointing like you always. And I often say to people, you know, your partner may well do things that hurt you or are things thought thoughtless, but making it sound like they always do that, like you always make me the baddie with the children. No one is always in that role. So it's, you know, kind of reeling back from making it sound like they're always doing something wrong, you know. Yeah. You know, just sometimes I wish you would consider my feelings on this, you know, or something like that. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And there's, you know, a couple of other things I think that could be useful for people is, you know, going for, for a walk together in nature. To have this kind of a conversation can be really positive because it reduces stress and you're not eyeballing each other. Yeah, absolutely. A kind of side by side enjoying. And now that we're having good weather, it's the time to do that. I'm afraid we've run out of time. That has been so. I know, I know. It just shoots fast. So let me just flag up to people. Your website is Angela and your insta is just simply Angela tv, but your Twitter is therealandela. M. So got those out there. I've gotta run now, but it's been wonderful reconnecting with you. I hope you'll come back on the show soon again. Lots of fun. Thank you so much. And that was Angela Mutanda. And come back and join me in a fortnight where I'll have more fantastic guests. I hope you look after yourself and have a wonderful weekend. And thank you for being here at the men's and women's radio stations.