Your Mind Matters – Natali Cohen & Craig Berman, Finding Love In A Hopeless Place

Love is born into every human being. It calls back the halves of our original nature together. It tries to make one out of two and heal the wound of human nature. Each of us then is a matching half of the human whole, and each of us is always seeking the half that matches him. This is the quote that Plato gave Aristophanes in his symposium, love heals the wound of nature and gives life a meaning. Is this true? I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska, and this is yous Mind Matters. Many of my clients bring their problems into my sessions on not only how to find love, but also how to find the right kind of love. Today I have two wonderful guests, Craig Berman and Natalie Cohen, who are discussing their story of finding love in a hopeless place and a hopeless time. So, firstly, welcome, Craig. Can I begin with you and your background and then we'll move on to Natalie? But thank you for joining me, Craig, and welcome. Thank you, Maria, for having me. My name is Craig Berman. I am a American. I came over to the UK from Long Island, New York in 2008. In fact, I probably could say that I moved to the UK for love, now that love faded. But I did travel over for love and career and have established my life here in the uk. I grew up in a nuclear family and I was very academically oriented. I went to Yale and I studied chemistry. And I now, after working in technology and working briefly in Africa for unicef, I now work in the city in London. Amazing. And when did you meet the lovely Natalie? Well, originally, I met Natalie on a dating app about four years ago, and we went on, I think, four dates. Ah, how lovely. So let's move on to you, Natalie. Hello. And I'm so happy to have this story. And by coincidence, actually, or, you know, synchronicity or whatever term you want to use, serendipity, we sort of didn't know that it was actually going to fall on today, the day after Valentine's Day. But, Natalie, you told me such a wonderful story, and I'm delighted to have you both on the program. So over to you, Natalie. Can you tell us your background and how you met Craig and your story? Thank you so much for having me. It's so exciting. So I'm Natalie Cohen. I am the founder of Zestfulness, which is a coaching company which I believe in having energy, enthusiasm, and taking ownership of your life. And I feel like I have a zest for life, so I hope that I encourage that in my clients. I found love definitely in a hopeless place and in a time that if someone had told me this would happen and. And we're not even a year in. Craig and I will be a year in. Only in April. Oh, I actually have no idea what the 27th. There you go. Yeah. The fascinating thing is Covid had just struck my father, who had been seriously ill for three years, had just passed on the day that lockdown began, which is on the 20th of March, 2020. And a week later, I reconnected with Craig and something magical, whatever you may want to call it, serendipity, it was. I still can't believe it. And it's still on the days that. Because not every day is a great day for everyone, especially during this lockdown period, on those days that I'm not having the best of days, it actually gets me out of my. My little slump. And yeah, I was a hopeless romantic from a young age and I just desperately was seeking love and it never really happened to me and it was just amazing. It happened at the most, you know, traumatic time and grieving period for me and. And now it's just the most beautiful thing, really. Sounds fantastic. So can I ask you very kindly said that you would tell your story. So we're coming back to. Here we are a week in after your father's death, which I've experienced my father's death, and any parents death or family member is super traumatic and very hard to understand and make sense of. And there you are, and you've made contact with Craig again. What was it about Craig that. About him that made him different this time to four years ago? There was a calmness. There was. I'm sure Craig wouldn't mind me saying that when we first met, we just weren't in the right places. He had just got divorced and had told me pretty much because Craig is American and has no filter, which is wonderful. Told me that, you know, he would never really think about marriage or children. You know, at that stage four years ago, I really wanted that. And it was something in my head. If people were saying that I thought that was a red flag rather than taking time to explore why. So I think I didn't give him that much of an open space to explore why he wouldn't have wanted that. And then Burger gate, of course. Yes, you can explain that one. Well, I mean, from my perspective, it was just a simple misunderstanding over the final bill of the evening. Well, let's say this, after many cocktails and then a very lovely burger, you know, there was a disagreement about whether we should split the bill or one of us should pay for the bill. And that was not leaving a good first impression on a first date. But we did push through that and met up three more times. And I think it's fair to say that we felt a real connection that, you know, four years later when we reconnected, we went back and looked at our texts from that time period four years ago. And you can read it in the text how we were sort of resisting our own impulses to be that interested in each other. Yeah. Can I ask who did pay the bill? I paid the burger bill and with a real reluctance. And the waiter said, don't worry, you're not the first woman tonight to be paying. But Craig bought the cocktails previously. So, yeah. Because I think dating is difficult. Let's go straight into the subject of dating before we move into. Go back to four years ago and dating and dating apps and social expectations, people's expectations. How quickly should you move into. From online into a date and before we come into the UK and usa, the difference in approach. But first of all, can we talk about the dating expectation from you, Natalie? What was your expectation? What was your hope? Oh, I had such a criteria. I. There was a list that, you know, hopefully they were financially secure, that they had their own teeth, they were educated, funny. Funny was actually number one. And yeah, it would just. There were a lot of things that I was looking for. And I think with dating then and as is now, because it's still a lot online, is that if the date doesn't go swimmingly or to the expectation of what you had, you go on to your next date, the next, you know, you swipe quickly. You don't give that person that time. Where before that I had, obviously I had met, you know, my boyfriends out and, you know, the organic way and. And dating and dating sites and all of that took me by complete shock. And I always felt like I had to be funnier than I actually was in order to try get a date. I always felt like I was selling myself, which wasn't a feeling I really enjoyed, especially because I'm older. So that the experience of online dating, as much as we could make a comedy show for it, and it had made a lot of my friends laugh and we had great times in the pub, swiping left and right. It wasn't. I just don't think we give people enough chances because there is someone waiting and we're already messaging another three people. So I think that was my experience. I'm not sure about you, Craig. Are you waiting to date you've also got back up your safety of other potentials. Have you? Oh, always. I always did. Not now. Clearly not now. Then we're talking four years ago. And, Craig, is it the same for a man? Was it the same for you and were you based here at that time? Yeah, I was. I was in the uk and, I mean, I had, you know, like Nat said, I come out of a very long relationship. It was about a decade, and I hadn't certainly been single or dating when swiping was even a thing. Right. So it was a bit intimidating at first. And in fact, the first person I met was organically, because I just sort of said to myself, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing this online thing. And eventually I realized that, you know, that is sort of the way people meet, one of the main ways people meet now. And if you think of it as a sort of a tool, a means to an end, then I think there's some positives to say about it. You do get to sort of come across a wider range of people that you may have come across organically, because, you know, you have places you go and you tend to see people like yourself. And I think that there's some positive in that. But I do agree with Natalie that there is this sort of, well, what's around the corner? I like this person, but who else might come up next if I keep going? And it's gamified. Right. So there's a bit of adrenaline rush when you, you know, you match someone or they text you first or whatever it is. I found it quite fine. It was pleasant. I did all right on it. I was able to meet nice people. I had a couple funny horror stories, but, you know, not too bad. And, yeah, I mean, I think it was a change. And I do sort of regret that people don't spend a little bit more time before they move on to the next person. Because before we get into your particular story, let's talk about the process of dating. And in the. For example, I was invited to a wedding in India. And when they have weddings in India, I'm not saying all weddings, but the ones I know, they do a horoscope, an astrology match for people, what they call synastry, just to check whether a couple get on. And obviously you've got people who get married without, in certain cultures, who've never seen the other person because they've been chosen by the family. Now you can see the downside to that. But is there an upside to have that courting period that's a little bit longer to have somebody else helping you find someone. What do you think, Natalie? Oh, I don't know. Because when you hear my story, I sort of rush into. I used to just rush into relationships. I used. I say I was a hopeless romantic. So if I had that feeling that it was. There was even a potential or that spark, I would either move in with them very quickly or they would move in with me very quickly. And I never really had a long courtship in that sense. So I think for me, I always went from my gut. But then for a very long time, I was going for the wrong people. So obviously my gut wasn't telling me the right thing. Mind and gut weren't working in sync at that point, but it definitely left. You know, I can always look back and smile and laugh with the love stories. And I'm glad I went through them all, actually, and I'm glad it happened in that sense because I realized very soon if I was wasting my time or they realized very soon if they were wasting their time. And that's been my approach. I'm not too sure I would encourage that to my. To my children. But I do think it's important that you just go. You don't have expectations. You don't have to wait a certain time period, and that you listen to yourselves rather than always thinking about what society wants for you as well. I think that would be important. And Craig, are you of the same mind? Do you think moving in together gives you a sense of who somebody is much more quickly? Is that the best way? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I guess to some extent. Yeah. I mean, we did that. I mean, you know, Boris Johnson said, you know, if you're dating someone, either go all in or cool it. And so we decided to go all in. And, you know, that certainly helped the intimacy. But I. But I do think that, you know, like in. In the sense of, like an arranged marriage or when there's all that societal pressure. I agree with now. I mean, like today you don't really want to be thinking about what society expects of you. But on the other hand, when you are in an arranged marriage or where there's one where there's intervention from your family or friends like that as part of it. You know, imagine how serious you're taking it when you're approaching the other person. You don't know them, but you're basically approaching it like this will work rather than approaching it like this. First 15 minutes better go well, or I'm going to call my girlfriends to get me out to go to the next. The safe word, the password. The safe word, the password. I do remember actually buying a dinner with an amazing actor. His name will come back to me so amazing I've forgotten his name. But it was for charity and the. At 2:30 we had the lunch. It was at lunch and from 1 o' clock and at 2:30 his phone went and he said, no, no, it's okay, it's okay. And it was only a charity lunch by the way. And I said, that's your get out call, isn't it? Yes, because the last time he did this, the women were so boring. I'm not mentioning his name, but we sat there till 5:30 talking, which was fabulous. So yeah, everybody has a get out password or a get out call or something like that. But how did you keep. Now Natalie, you said you're slightly older. How did that impact on your dating? Did you become a little bit more crazy? And you can tell me the answer to this as well, Craig. I have an American girlfriend who is a comedian and we were talking about the difference between dating in the USA and dating here in the uk and she was saying that they might meet for a quick coffee in Starbucks or whatever and they might. The woman will be sitting there thinking, oh, he owns a flat, he's got a spare room, it would look lovely in pink. Would the cock fit in there? That's how the woman's mind's going within the first five minutes of their meeting. And did you feel that your mind got to that point, Natalie? Oh yes, most definitely. Normally after like a good hour or a few cocktails in. No, that was definitely how my would go. I think for me it was the pressure that people were putting on me to settle down and to have children that when I went out, I don't know. And I also help clients with love and it always seems so successful for them. I'm like, wow, I must be really good at this and just so hopeless with myself. So I did have to have a good chat with myself to figure out where I was going wrong. And it was this slight desperation that I think I was giving out and I was always chasing the men. And it was, it was fascinating. The minute that I stopped chasing and actually the minute I stopped caring, I was like, that's it. I don't care if I'm alone forever, I will get a dog. I have, you know, I'm very lucky in every sense of the word. I'm just in a really bad place because my father had just passed. But I said, you know, he would want me to live, and he loved my love stories. So I knew I was never going to give up completely on it, but I just thought I was going to change my attitude towards it. And that when Craig and I reconnected and it was different that time, the way that I pursued that in the sense that I allowed him to pursue me rather than me pursuing him. And I think when people would find out my age and I say, I'm not ashamed to say I'm 38, they would say, oh, wait, do you have a younger sister? You know, it was really fascinating to see how men would approach me compared to when I was in my 20s and. And, you know, after 35, how the dates were going. So I think I probably got into my head a lot about how I was feeling about my age. And the minute I stopped caring and was like, this is me. Love it or love, you know, leave it. And I really was exuding that, you know, I met the right person. So. Yeah. And so you come from a fairly analytic background, being a chemistry Craig. Is that the same for a man? Do men feel the same way about themselves or do they only judge women in that way? I mean, it's hard for me to speak on behalf of men or Americans necessarily. I guess I always try to rationalize things and come up with the sort of scientific explanation for why things went well or not. And obviously, analyzing a date scientifically isn't always particularly helpful. I do think that when I first started, you know, dating again from becoming single, I didn't really know what I wanted and that. That, you know, like desperation, not knowing what you want almost at all in the other person, other than some, you know, traits like kindness and humor, you know, that doesn't also attract the right, you know, people. And I think it was. No, but like, like, now that I'm, you know, getting older, I guess you also feel a little bit like, well, you know, does that photo. Does my hair look gray? You know, do I have to about my height? You know, I don't know why that's on dating profiles, but, you know, hey, so I do think that there's a little bit of that. But obviously in this society, women or men are still not held to the same standards. So I think that the expectations on a male side is, you know, to be financially secure and to want a family, I guess. I don't know. But what was your criteria? What did you mostly look for? Well, I guess what's funny is that I met Natalie on a Jewish Tinder called JSwipe. And I had always resisted dating one of the tribe, and I am, of course, of the tribe. And that was the only person I ever went on a second date with having met on that site. And I did. So out of curiosity, I kind of said, look, I've tried everything. Sort of let me go back to what everyone always told me I would end up with and give it a try. And it did work in the end. So I was really looking for this feeling, a comfort, a warmth, a sparkle in the eye and this humor that someone once told me that what you really want is someone that you're going to solve problems with, that you want by your side to get through difficult times. And from early on, the fact that we met during this quarantine and decided to basically just move in together, there was always that. That real look of trust and patience and get through something tough together that I really was looking for. So we can blame Boris for the baby, but coming back to your j swipe the tribe, do you think that helped because you have an understanding of a culture? Can you go into your culture a little bit more and what that means to you? Because it's more than just a religion, isn't it, The Jewish culture? Yeah, yeah, no, that's true. And for me, for me, it was not really religious. I had religious education growing up. But for me, it was always something that I felt an affinity towards. The culture, the humor, the literature, the expressions, the language, the traditions that were really more or less an atheist. But I appreciated being part of this culture. Feeling part of a community of any kind, I think is very important. And I don't know exactly why it was that I resisted it so much. I think to some extent it was because it was so familiar. And the people who were put in front of me say, oh, she would be a good wife one day. I just didn't find myself attracted to because I guess it was too familiar or too. I don't know what I was expected to do. And I was rebellious. So, you know, to some extent, it was pushing away. And I also became very political and lefty and sort of pushed away from the religion because of the politics that surround some of the stuff that goes on. So. But on the other hand, you know, my grandparents are Holocaust survivors, and they married in a refugee camp, and they survived crazy things and found love together. And I feel the same way, the same kind of energy that they always had I feel with Nat. And it's a thing that I never expected to see, and it sort of Pulled me back, surprisingly. I mean, Nat, you can tell yourself, but I mean, neither of us are particularly observant. You probably you less than me, but yet there's still that connection of that shared culture. Can I just go into your grandparents? Because for me, when I, as a therapist, I not only look at the individual, their family background. You know, they say when you get married, there's you two and your parents, whether they're alive or not, live in the bedroom, basically in the house, in the flat. But also you've got your grandparents, you've got your ancestry, which is so powerful. So because we share a little bit of the same background. My parents were both political refugees here, but they were also prisoners of war in Siberia and my uncle was murdered in Auschwitz. Tell me a bit more about your grandparents, Craig. Sure. I mean, they were born in what's now either Ukraine or Poland, in the shtetl, you know, in the Pale of Settlement, as they call it. And my grandfather was probably about 19 or 20 when the war broke out in Lodz and had a carpet factory with his family. He ended up in the Warsaw ghetto. His flat was already in the ghetto. It's still there. In fact, I had a friend's mom go check it out, take a photo of the front of the building. And the war didn't go well. I mean, he lost his entire family pretty much. And he was in multiple labor camps. He helped build the autobahn, he worked briefly for Messerschmitt forced labor. He was in Auschwitz. He survived a cull of his whole barracks in Auschwitz because He worked a 24 hour shift. He survived the death march through the, through the winter and ultimately ended up on the back of a train after being liberated and ended up in Rome. Meanwhile, my grandmother was, you know, her story is a little bit less told. She doesn't really remember, never really talked about the details of it, but basically was in hiding and we suspect was probably cared for by someone, you know, something in a farm or in a farmhouse or hiding in holes and things like this. She was younger and she also made it out to this refugee camp. It was in Rome. It was where I guess a predecessor to the United nations type organization. She was the cashier or the waitress and he was the maitre d of the refugee camp restaurant. And they got together, got married in the Rome synagogue. Actually, Nat and I were thinking that we'd try to do something there, if that's possible. Again, post Covid. I think you should. I just think it's such a powerful story because this Never leaves you these stories. And I know that people say. Some people say, don't talk about it. Some people try to remember. Some people are now taking down history, and they are. You cannot forget history. You know, even Nietzsche said, if you want to know yourself, you've got to know history. And I do worry about people who are trying to obliterate that, because not only will it repeat itself, it means that a part of one's own psyche, one's own knowledge of oneself, will never really be explored. And you have to explore that dynamic. And I think that's very exciting, what you said, especially about Rome and the synagogue there and going there. So was your background, Natalie, the same. Did you go to a synagogue where did you have a Bat Mitzvah? Oh, no, no. I think I thought I was Catholic for a while. I went to a lot of Christmas Catholic schools, so. And it wasn't really something we were brought up with, apart from when we would go to South Africa where my grandparents were, and they would. They were just traditional. So I knew about the tradition. I really didn't know much about anything about the Jewish religion at all until I realized I was Jewish probably about the age of 9 or 10. And it made got me out of going to chapel because all of a sudden I could say I was Jewish. So I didn't know much about it, and there's a bit of a regret about that, but there was always a sense of something, and I was never really too sure what it was. So I would always read and try and make myself knowledgeable in that sense. And then my father married my stepmother, who's incredible, and she converted. And it was this community and this feel and seeing my father as he grew up and changing the way that he was and becoming slightly more religious towards the end of his life, that made me realize that maybe there was something that I had been missing. And very much like Craig, I was very rebellious. I rarely went out with. With Jewish men, and. But when I did meet Craig, there was just a feeling, like a familiarity, I would say. So I didn't know very much. And I think I would very much like to have a Bat Mitzvah. Not for the presence, not just for the presence, but just, just, just for me, actually. So it's about learning, and I think I would like to have that knowledge, if I use it, that's one thing. But it would just be nice to know. No, because the Jewish religion culture, which I have a great deal of respect for myself, is so powerful. There's so much depth and I particularly like the Kabbalah, and I've been to Israel. I've been and found it amazing. Jerusalem. And it was one of those places I had to go to. And my parents were Catholics. But there's still. Whatever the difference is, there's still a similarity. You know, there's still that belief, that deep sense of belief. And I know very often it's the religion, the belief system that pulls you through so many difficult times. So can I just touch on your father's death here, Natalie? That must have been very traumatic. And how did your father cope? Was he quite religious at that time, you said? No, he got into Friday night suppers and things like that. He didn't go to the extreme, that's for sure. But he. I suppose his religion was life, if I could say that. He had the most incredible zest for life. He really was one of the very few gentlemen I've ever met. And he just had this amazing aura about him. And he was diagnosed three years earlier, and they gave him more or less six months to live. And he fought with such energy and zeal and love. And he would say to us, like, every time we would take him to hospital or admit him, and it was towards the end, he would be like, love kept me alive, and I love life. And he was just living for us towards the end, which gave him that extra few months with us. But he had. He didn't want to go. He was quite young. There was a few things on his to do list. But he was also a man that when we were talking about it, you know, he said, I did so much. No, he was a doctor. He flew planes, he wrote poetry, he rode horses. Everything he wanted to do, he did, and he did it his way. And I suppose for him, religion brought the community in, the people that would be, you know, popping in to see him and my mom, Claire, you know, it was. That was the religious element. You know, there was such care in the Jewish community because that's, you know, where they've lived in North London. And. And he did say he was like, I would like you to find a Jewish man. And I said, okay, okay, I promise you. And I remember cuddling him one night, and I said, I promise you I will find a Jewish man. And, you know, a week later, I reconnected with the Jewish man. So I suppose I can't speak for my father because I don't know what his real mindset was, because he was so strong for us. He lived for his family, he lived for his girls, his wife and Me and my sister and my brother. He was definitely a man who loved his wife and daughters. And he just had this amazing. As I say, I suppose his religion was life learning as well. You never met him. He always had a book around him or he just read something amazing or watched the most incredible program and he was always trying to educate me. And I suppose that's what kept him going through those tough, tough months. Yeah, it's a difficult time to watch a parent, you know, sort of die, go through those motions. But it leaves you with that feeling, that strength and also despair. There's so much to that moment. And I think we sadly are trying and especially during this time. I know so many people that weren't able to see their parents when they went through the last stages of their lives. But it is such a sacred moment and we gain so much as people and it is tragic. But at the same time, within that sorrow there's also that uplifting and the desire to live is so profound that in my work, when I hear about people who've had enough of life and they can't cope, I always find that so sad. And I do my best to keep people away from that way of thinking because life is always at certain points a struggle. There's always something that can be, that can turn your head into torment or despair or those moments that you think, I'm never going to get through this. And apart from your father's, you know, through that terrible time with your father, that sorrow when you were going through boyfriend after boyfriend and let's say, how did you pull yourself out? What was your self talk at that moment when you pulled yourself out? That that one didn't work out. Oh my gosh, how did that happen? What words did you say to yourself? Do you remember? Oh, yes, very much so. For me, my coping mechanism was a. To get very drunk with my best girlfriend Sarah, and to drink a lot and eat a lot of fries. That would be my 24 hours. That was, that was how I would cope the first 24 hours. And then I always made about me and I always put the negative and especially during my 20s and I look back at photos in my 20s, I was like, oh my goodness. I really did not own it in my 20s, but when I hit 30 actually and I just broken up with what I had perceived to be the love of my life, I was like, no more. I'm never going to be doubting myself. I'm never going to have that negative ripple effect. So after breakup or one or two serious breakups in my 30s, I actually allowed myself to have this time to reconnect with myself. Why did it go wrong? Figure out what it was. And I always learned it was because I let myself be controlled. I would have this. I think I have quite energetic energy and a light. And by the time a relationship would end I was always really. My sparkle wasn't there. And it was very interesting. My father would always be the first person to pick it out. He always, you know, he liked one or two of the boyfriends and then towards the end he would be like, your sparkle's gone. You can't be with someone that takes away your sparkle. So that was for me, I really had to learn about what my worth was. And I think that's what I worked on in my 30s and will continue to work on is knowing that when a relationship ends it's not just your fault. There are, there is, there's two people in a relationship and you can't beat yourself up forever because you miss out on life. You miss out on possibly the next best thing if you're going to be wallowing and actually making yourself a victim of maybe something that was fun for a while and you know, was going to end anyway. So I tried. One of the things that I've always tried to do and still do is find humor in quite a lot of it. So it's. And I would, I would find, you know, that, that tiny bit of humor and to get me through the tough times and I wouldn't beat myself up. But in my 20s it was like the end of the world. You know, I would eat Percy pigs for a year and get super skinny and you know, cry and then was like what the hell have I done for a year? Get over it girl. So self talk. And realizing that the negative was so bad that I actually, when I started becoming a coach and did all the courses, I think that's when it really helped me to get over relationships and learn how important your inner dialogue is. Yeah. And being self reflective and I always say to clients and to people generally and obviously to myself because it doesn't matter who you are, you have to have self talk is when you. Anybody's gone through a relationship and it gets to a point where you are, there's something wrong and you finish. There's always when it goes, starts going wrong, it's wrong for a reason. And if you write those reasons down, it's normally because that's where the boundaries are. So always look at the first spark of any relationship and write that down. If you're being self reflective, and then write down where it went wrong, because that's what you don't want in the next relationship. So it gives you a clue, basically. So it's good to be in and out of a certain amount of relationships. But let's not overdo it, because some people become addicted to that initial hit, that adrenaline rush, as you said, Craig, of the initial relationship, and then to meet somebody and meet somebody else and somebody else. And that in itself can become addicted. But, Craig, how much did your family influence your choice? I know we talked about you for the first time going on really connecting with somebody on the app for the Jewish community, let's say. But how much of your family now do you think they influenced you and what you were looking for unconsciously? Yeah, I mean, I think to some extent. And I'm very lucky in that they just want me to be happy, basically. That's it. As long as I'm happy and healthy, then they'll be happy for it. I think it has influenced my choices, though, because I think in my past relationships, there was always a distance or a coldness between my partner and my family that even I couldn't help but realize and recognize wasn't quite right and probably wasn't mature enough to deal with it or face it. And therefore, their influence was basically to find someone who would fit in with my family. Don't fight the family. Add to the family, basically. So when I. When, you know, one of the reasons that I knew Nat was perfect for me is that she already felt like family. And I knew that if she were stuck in a room with my. With my family, she would not only not be annoyed by them, but she would just, you know, they would be rolling on the floor, laughing with each other. And I think from that perspective, they've had an impact on me. Yeah. Because family, at the end of the day, when you're in a relationship, play an even bigger role than we think initially. And they can influence a relationship. They can help soothe problems. To get them involved is important and at times absolutely downright essential, especially in our world where we are so isolated. But just to keep in that area, you know, where. Because it is an extension of love. We're talking about love here. And the extension of love. And the Greeks. And you know, the Greeks, as we know, you know, the Greeks and the Greek gods have Aphrodite and Psyche and Eros and all those wonderful mythological stories. And for the Greeks, they have so many names for love. And the one that you sort of Moves from is from Eros, which is that spark of love. And we all know that that's what Valentine's Day is based on. You know, flowers and diamond rings and let's run away together. And then it grows. Love can grow. And they also have. You've got playful love, which is ludus, and then you've got love for everybody, which is agape, which people don't really talk about that. There are different types of love, and it doesn't have to be erotic love every time. And they also have, you know, sort of filial love, which is deep friendship, but also a love for the family. And by virtue of connecting to your partner, that extends into the family, hopefully, because there's nothing worse than not being able to get on with a family member of your partner, because that can be, as you say, very damaging. So there's wonderful extensions to our love. When people do fall in love and create the family, then it extends out and it gives people a very. It's very potent, and it gives them a sort of a wonderful joy in life, whether it's from an aunt to a nephew or niece. That just develops that sort of side of love, which is not only addictive, but it's catching. Everybody wants a little bit. So that's why I was so pleased to have you here on the program. But Freud, I'm going to move slightly, and Freud said love and work are the cornerstones of our humanness. Would you agree with that, Craig? Love and work, yes, but I think it depends very much on what we interpret as work. I think for love, it would be the love you describe, which is multifaceted. I think that the one that you say agape, that people don't talk about the community, love, the love of everyone, I think is one that's super important, especially in society when we're feeling isolated. Even before COVID you have isolation and people feeling like they're just a cog in the machine. And there are those times when people feel that kind of love, whether that's at a big concert or a comedy club where everyone's laughing at the same thing or singing along to the same song or in a religious service. I think that's really important. And work, yes, but work is not just whatever. Earning your salary. Work could be doing volunteer work. Work could be building your house, taking care of your kids, cleaning. Work is a lot of things that make you feel productive. I always have felt that. I mean, one of my favorite jobs I ever had was being a tech help desk person at my university and that's because I got to take apart computers and fix them. And you could see the work. You could feel it in your fingers and show the fruits of your labor. And I think that there is a human need to be productive in some way, whether that's writing music or it doesn't have to be working for the man like me. But also, you worked in Uganda. I did. I did. I worked. I followed an ex who was working for the civil service. And I ended up taking three months to just kind of enjoy myself and get used to the country. But then I found a job working for UNICEF doing sort of healthcare IT projects, for example. We worked on systems that helped digitize, let those remote, very poorly connected health centers from around the country report shortages of medicine by text message, instead of it taking 6 or 12 months to arrive by paper into Kampala, the center of Uganda. And that was great because when you had a database of all the health workers. For example, there was an Ebola outbreak in western Uganda, where it often happens. And because we have this database of all the health workers, you know, we were able to send messages out, you know, in conjunction with the World Health Organization and the Ministry of Health, to sort of alert people, here's where it's happening. Here's the isolation unit. Here's, you know, how you disinfect. And so it felt good to, you know, sort of take the skills that I learned in the city and take it to a different context and face very different challenges. The bureaucracy of the UN and the corruption, which is actually, surprisingly, wasn't a whole lot. I was once asked for iPads by a minister, but, you know, it was rewarding in some ways. And it was interesting to see that the same challenges you face in the corporate world, you face parallels of. In the develop, you know, and doing development work. Yeah. And what is their attitude towards marriage? What is their cultural attitude? Do they have? Are they all the same with various online apps as well? I mean, I didn't do a lot of online dating there, but I do know that. I mean, the country is extraordinarily diverse. I mean, it is a good mix of Catholics, Protestants and Muslims, even a small Jewish community out there. Interesting story. And then the ethnic groups and language groups, there's like 50 different languages in the country. So it is complicated. And so to answer that question for the whole country, I can't do. But there were. I remember when I lived there, and at first you meet people all over, whether it's out and you're going on safari or going out to visit a site of a health center. And I remember some very strange perceptions. I remember once I was on a safari walk and the guy had two or three phones on his belt and we asked, why do you have three phones? He said, well, this phone is for the wife, this phone is for the girlfriend, and this phone is for work. And so there was definitely, I mean, monogamy is a relatively recent thing in some of the cultures in the country. So that was interesting. But otherwise, no. I felt it was a very modern place for love and romance and all the rest and a different way to connect. And do you think that there needs to be a different approach to the apps? So coming back to you, Natalie, and you're a coach and when you coach people, you're helping them focus. Is it mostly for work that you're doing it? Is it focusing or is it focusing on the whole person? Oh, the whole person. Yeah, the whole person. And normally when they, they come in for a session they think it's one thing and it never is that one thing, it's always something else. You know, the home environment, you know, you know, health, it could be. But a lot of people focus on the work. But then once you explore with some, with questions, it always seems to be something else. And it normally comes down to self worth and how they're feeling rather than what they actually came into the session thinking they would be. So yes, I focus on all of that. So do you think that dating in this day and age needs to have a different approach? So if you were to create a new app, would you change certain elements of it? Because I think people have moved on from that initial spark of this is the person I want or I don't want one night stands or I want looking for lt. What do they put it? Ltr, long term relationship and so on. There's all this shorthand because people are becoming more self. Yeah, you see, I know, I know what I'm talking about. As you can tell, I am single. I'm not one of those people that has three mobile. Craig. But you know, it's quite interesting because I think people are becoming more self reflective. Both men and women are becoming more self reflective. And do you think that could be accommodated in the dating scenario, Natalie? I think so. I think time, I think people as you say, being self reflected, therefore they're going to give more time to the person that they're sitting in opposite. And I think the whole swiping left and right, maybe it's sort of, it's had its thing and Maybe the new thing could be like, you have to wait 72 hours before you swipe your next person. Just give yourself, you know, some time to actually enjoy who's sitting in front of you, be it on zoom, where a lot of dates have been taken, or in a park or on a bench. But it's about that. That time. And I think, you know, there are some positives about the swiping game, but I think if you are able to see it as what it is and not be, you know, desperate for the next, that actually. And you know what you really want. I think that's really important as well, because one reason that Craig and I didn't work the first time is he told me lots of things he didn't want. And. And when we reconnected less than a year ago, he said on the first meeting, again, he said, oh, these are the things I want. And we were aligned again. So I think it is really important that, you know, you can be flexible in your thinking, but have some sort of idea what you want as well. I think that's important. Is it harder or is it easier for women to announce that nowadays, do you think, or did you find that, I mean, Craig, obviously from America, are American men easier to date because they respect powerful women, or are they harder? Oh, is that for Craig or me? I think from my experience, I can't speak for everyone, but from my experiences, I. The one. The one relationship, or the two relationships that have gone very. Went well where they were American because they did respect me for the fact that I was an entrepreneur. I always have a zest for making things happen. And interesting enough, whenever I would go on dates with Englishmen who were very senior in their corporate lives, they will always try to break me down. And it was fascinating to watch. And I remember leaving the pub one day crying. I was like, this is not how you're meant to be feeling. So I don't know if it's an American thing or if I was just going for the wrong people, but I hadn't. I do think, you know, there is maybe. Maybe there is that American dream that we're all looking for. But as I said, that was my experience. The ones that the hideous states were people that were quite powerful, quite dominant, and they were always trying to break me down. And if it was on the flip side and they were American, then they were still also quite in very professional professions. There was this, I want to help you. Let's make this happen together. And there was this energy. So, yeah, you know, because for Many people dating can be quite isolating in itself for women, especially in the world of work. I often hear this particularly for entrepreneurial women and especially in the boardroom. And I always say that you should have a lot of humor in the boardroom for a woman, but the whole breaking down of the female, you know, there's so much competition in the boardroom and amongst men and if that translates to into the dating scene on into a marriage, it can be very detrimental. Coming to you then, Craig, was it easier to date British women? I mean, I guess I've always dated people from, you know, diverse backgrounds, let's say. So there was, there was no, no, no clear identities, I guess. But I do think that I was always interested in what was people who are worldly and open minded and different. But I also, I guess I had really, really good female role models growing up. I was close to my mother and obviously she did a very good job, I would have to say. And so therefore, you know, I've always respected women. I've always wanted to be with someone who has their own thing going on and of course I'd want to be part of it and support it. So I didn't do a lot of dating in America because I moved here in 2008 when I had just graduated university. So. So I don't know, but I've done okay here. Maybe there should be on our new app that we're devising here, Natalie, maybe there should be one for just Americans for British women or the American psyche. Coming back to the principle of the feminine, the mother, the woman. But we're talking about the feminine principle, the power of the mother. Now in your culture, in the Jewish culture, Jewish religion and culture, it comes through the mother. Isn't that correct, Craig? Yes, that's right. I mean, the religion is passed down through. Yeah, yeah. And so the mother has a lot of respect within the community, is that correct? Yes, absolutely. I mean, mothers are enormously respected. I mean, what's interesting to me is that I do get a sense that in the Jewish community there is, is a little bit more, I mean, you know, in the very religious sects. It's not that different from other very religious sects of other monotheistic religions. Christianity, Islam, where there's not a lot of equality always in religious matters between men and women. But I think the vast majority of Jews culturally, you know, do have that deep respect for women. But interestingly that's true of a lot of other parts of the world and lots of other cultures. And I don't know what it is that makes it more prominent in one versus another, but it's in the mind because it's in the attitude as you're saying, Natalie, that when you go out with somebody that is in competition with you because you're a woman as well, it's almost like a woman is going to steal their lunch. Yes, I definitely had some feelings and experiences where I just did something very successful in terms of my business and I would go on a date and I was like, oh, we should celebrate. This has just happened. And it was like, oh, who do you think you are? Get off your high horse. And so, yeah, but in, you know, I've had bad experience, but I also have had some great experiences and I'm going to be a mother for the first time in five months time. So I think when it comes to dating all I think I will tell you either I have no idea what the sex is, be it a boy or a girl. I think when it comes to love, I think I'm just going to give the same advice that my dad did, which is don't overthink it, enjoy it, but never bring yourself down. And I think that's going to be very important. I think that will probably be the knowledge I would pass down. And don't beat yourself up if you don't look like a Victoria's Secret model or you're not the boss. You know, you're not running, you know, a city firm by the time you're 23. And I think that's what I'm going to tell our babka in five months time or when it can actually understand what I'm saying to it. Do you know, I think what is so important that again, when it comes to rearing children, how much they just absorb of the way you are together. If a parent respects the other, that's what the child will absorb. That's where it comes from. And as you said Craig, in your family, and as you said Natalie, in your family, you absorbed it because that's what life is. Sometimes the words, if they are contradictory to the action, children get very confused. So you know, to have a couple that respect each other, which I can hear you do, and to support each other in that way is quite phenomenal. And it's incredibly important that that respect is there. And I think that's the part of relationships in some areas that have been lost, you know, and it's almost. And you know, in my, even in my sessions, if I hear a couple talking badly to each other, I will Stop that. And it doesn't matter whether it's two men, two women, you know, male, female, the respect has to start off in front of us. I'm sure you do the same in yours when you're doing coaching. But it has to be in that room that these are the rules of engagement. What's the way that you speak to each other and how do you communicate is so powerful and that's what a child will understand and feel and sense. Do you care? Do you respect the rest of it? There's always going to be things wrong. There's always. That's life. That's the nature of life. You know, things are going to go wrong, but they're not necessarily going to go as wrong if you're at odds with each other. And I think it's how you develop that, but in your work as well. Are you going to continue this, Natalie, after you have your child? Oh, yes, very much so. In actual fact, Craig and I co started a website called Cranky Cankles to enjoy the cranks of pregnancy and actually the humor and the hormonal humor that I didn't even know existed. So I'm working on that as my creative outlook at the moment and I will definitely carry on coaching because for me, that's my passion. I love seeing my clients excel. I get more of a buzz than if they paid me my invoice. Like seeing that they are doing what they want to do. You know, I would do this for free if I could because I just. It really is where I get my energy from helping and I've been so fortunate with those who I get to work with. I work with young people, I work with professional footballers, I work with CEOs. And for me, for me to just give that up, I think I would lose myself a little bit. I may potentially not be doing the same hours. I'll probably have a nap or longer naps in between, but I'm not going to give that up because that's what I look forward to is such an important part of life and children like that, actually. And my children grew up, as I told you, I owned Jongle's comedy clubs at that time and I used to balance my work with my children and at times they'd come into work because, you know, when they were older and even when they were very young, because I could take them in the sling. But, you know, it is a part of life and I think it's good for children to see that the mother works and the father works and there is a way that. But can harmonize. And I think it's, you know, sort of a part of life nowadays that the mother works. And it's very exciting what you're doing. Don't do it for nothing. No, no, I won't. I won't. I have Craig telling me that, don't worry, you know, that it's who pays the ferryman. It's, you know, sort of in the system of exchange, there has to be a financial exchange. It has to be understood that this has value. And very often women are particularly in therapy as well. They often. Or as women start their own companies, they find, oh, my goodness, you know, how much do I charge? Should I charge? Perhaps I shouldn't charge anything. And every single person in business says, you've got to charge. You've got to have a value in the work that you do and people will respect it more. That's why you've got certain handbags that sell for 26,000, which is crazy. If you pay 26,000 for a handbag, your work should be rated much, much higher. But it's fascinating. So just to finish off, is there a message you can give to people about love and finding love? Yeah, don't give up. Don't give up, because as I say, if someone told me I would be in this position a year ago, I would have told them to get lost. I don't give up. And don't beat yourself up and enjoy the journey. And there are going to be some serious lows, but there actually are wonderful highs as well. And I think that's what life is. And, you know, never give up on something that you potentially want. And if it's love, then, you know, don't give up on it. Craig, what do you think? What's your message? Yeah, I agree, Absolutely. Do not give up. And also I think, you know, focus on getting yourself to that good place. If you want love, be happy with yourself, invest in yourself, get fit, get happy, get healthy. And then that will make you much more open to the kind of feelings that you really want this love. And I think that even in a time like today, in coronavirus times, it happens and we're proof of it. And it gives me hope that no matter what we face as humanity will still find love. Oh, I love that. And Natalie and Craig, you are wonderful story of our time. And let's not forget, and I'm in the world of comedy, and you both love comedy. There's so many stories to be told about relationships and love. Please don't stop anybody who wants to find love. Keep trying. Keep going. Because it gives you the power. It gives you the fire to continue. And it's such a wonderful feeling. Thank you both for joining me today. Your mind matters.