Your Mind Matters With Maria Kempinska – Toral Odedra & Andrew Darling – Crisis

Are you feeling anxious? Online therapy 24. 7 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 0207-553-5080 and check out our website onlinetherapy247.com when Viktor Frankl wrote Man's Search for Meaning, he contextualized his theory that all people search for spiritual understanding. When he experienced suffering himself in his personal story, he'd been stripped of dignity, brutally lost his families and in Auschwitz. And it was in that tragedy that he wrote his book, Man's Search for Meaning. He believed that there must be significance in suffering. And he stated that if there's a meaning in life at all, then there must be a meaning in suffering. Suffering is an eradicable part of life, even as is fate and death. Without suffering and death, human life cannot be complete. The Buddhist teaching also believes that suffering is a tenant of their faith. All beings experience pain and unhappiness. It's one of the four noble truths. And that in the cycle of Samsara, which is a cycle of birth, life, death and rebirth, we must experience suffering in Islam. Muslims believe that when they see people who are suffering, they should treat them with mercy. Suffering needs to be understood in many ways and is possibly education or a test or even retribution in the Christian faith, as we know that Christ died on the cross to heal our sins. So there are many forms of understanding of suffering. I'm Dr. Maria Kampinska and both my parents lost their families during the war, the Second World War, and they suffered humiliation, starvation, torment, oppression as prisoners of war under the Russian government in Siberia. So as a child, I was brought up in their world of post traumatic stress. So I was the second generation to experience post traumatic stress from the Second World War. It's now understood much more than it was then. I had to find a deep understanding to get me through the juxtaposition of their lives, which was full of torment and deep struggle and the newfound joy of freedom here in the uk. And when you think about it, even Monty Python made a film called the Meaning of Life, which I think if we all know that one, it's quite funny. So all major beliefs have a similar message, that in pain we can find a deeper meaning. So can we find in our own lives meaning and in our life path itself. This is yous Mind Matters. And today I'm delighted To welcome my guests, Toral Adebra and Andrew Darling, who are telling their life stories and will join in the discussion. Crises as a test of spirituality. Firstly, can I welcome you, Toral, and can you give us a brief background? So I just wanted to say thank you so much, Maria, for inviting me on the show. And I think it's a very important time and it's such an important subject and to go back to my story. So basically I grew up in England in an Indian background and, you know, quite a reasonable, like, religious family. And then when I got into my teenage years kind of started to drift off. Not as focused on that, more like, see your friends go out. And then I ended up moving to Singapore and then to the US and then everything was fine for a long time. And then I went through like a very tough period, like problems at work, in quite a stressful relationship, many different things. And it just. Oh, accidents. And then it just felt like anything that could go wrong would go wrong. And it just felt like I couldn't cope. Like, why me? Why me? And then started getting involved in different things, looking into like meditation and reading different kind of spiritual books. And I really think that it was kind of a wake up call because then I was much more focused. I had much more, say, faith in God. And I would say that was like that crisis what re woke up that beliefs. And was it a different belief to your family's belief? Yes and no, because as I read more like how you were talking about a few minutes ago about Christianity, Islam, when I was so sad, I would look up so many different books and I would look into many religions. So I still have faith in my religion, which I grew up, which is Hinduism, But I also have much more knowledge about other religions now. So, Andrew, can you give us a brief history of your time? Yeah, sure. So, yeah, My name is Andrew Darling, I'm British. I'm. Yes, if I had a religion, you could call it Christian. That's certainly how I was brought up. I spent the early part of my life traveling a lot, really, with my family. My parents worked overseas in Africa, in Indonesia and the United States. And I was sort of dragged along in their wake as a youngster, which was actually fantastic. Really gave me a lot of fantastic early, early life experiences. And I would definitely describe my childhood as a happy one. And then around the age of 13, 14, I was dispatched back to the UK to a very traditional UK boarding school, which I guess was. That was the end of my happy childhood. And I became a sort of institutionalized third culture kid. So it was a sort of, you know, traditional kind of public school, boarding school education. It really taught me one thing more than anything else, which was to rebel. So it gave me a very healthy dose of anti. Anti authoritarianism. But. And I think actually despite all the kind of fact that maybe it was a little bit tough in the early days, it did expose me to some interesting kind of other. Other family backgrounds and other people that, you know, that had a very interesting background, people that come from Europe during the war, people that worked in refugee or been in refugee camps, some of the, you know, family members of friends that I made. And, you know, it sort of kind of showed me that there was not. There was more than an early stage, that there was more to life than just my own existence. And that coupled with my, you know, my background as a kid in moving around in different cultures, I think it contributed to me having an interest in other ways of life, other thinking, other philosophies. And that carried on in my life really through to leaving school. I kind of did the traditional. Well, not quite sure if it's traditional really now, but, you know, put a backpack on and, you know, put my thumb in the air and I went off hitchhiking around Mexico and South America and North America and, you know, became quite sort of independent at a young age, I guess. And then, you know, I. I wouldn't really describe myself as having any kind of spiritual crisis. I was. I was certainly interested in philosophy and other ways, particularly Buddhism. I wasn't particularly religious. I kind of rejected a lot of that just conceptually and intellectually. So it took me a while, really, to understand the connection between philosophy, which was where my head was at, and spirituality, which was inside me. And actually that was a journey which took some time to really fully embrace. Not because I was reluctant to, but just because I couldn't find a way past, I guess, in my head, this kind of extreme rationalist thinking that I'd been trained as at school and at university. And I suppose, you know, I carried on working and living abroad in other countries. And like Toral, I lived in Singapore for a while. And during that time I kind of spent a lot of time visiting other countries around the region and connecting with people who. Of a spiritual background and starting to understand that part of me inside which I needed to kind of embrace. And I finally found a way of getting around that sort of intellectual kind of rationalist thinking which. Which I treasure in an ability to kind of, you know, as a. As a way of being able to think and think about problems, but being able to kind of get around the need for proof of everything and actually just open myself up to acceptance and listen to what was inside me. That's what I kind of probably didn't really achieve that until I was in my, you know, my late 40s. But I think it doesn't really matter when it happens. Right. As long as it happens in an authentic way. And so that's what brought me to here. And actually it was interesting hearing you mention Viktor Frankl's book because that had a, when I read that had a huge effect on me. And you know, the fact that he has that line which I think he borrowed from Frederick Nietzsche actually was those that have a why to live can bear with almost. Anyhow, that was a very profound book for me to read. And yeah, I suppose, you know, I brought myself back here in the early part of last year during the pandemic. And I think the spirituality that I've kind of learned to grow within me has helped me deal with a lot of the crises that have happened over the last 18 months. And can I ask you, Andrew, and I'll ask you shortly, sort of background question, which is how much of your family's Christian religion did they take when they traveled abroad, Andrew? Or was that just sort of subliminally sort of conveyed to you or were you active in going to church when you traveled? No, absolutely none at all. I mean, I think my parents would kind of, you know, had it forced on them as children, but we certainly didn't really. We never really were made to go to church or anything. So it was a fairly free thinking family environment. I just think that where it did come in was when I was actually at school because we were, you know, we had to go to chapel so many times a week. It was religious education was part of the curriculum. But the. But no, there was no family pressure to believe in any particular way. We were really left up to our own, you know, to make up our own minds about that sort of thing. And what about you, Tarrel? Did you know your family were Hindu? How much of that, like in your early upbringing, apartheid? It was very similar. Like my family weren't like extremely religious or anything when I was growing up, like they believed, but it was kind of like minimal. If it was a special occasion or something, they might do something. But only maybe in the last few years, I would say they've probably become more religious too and more spiritual. You know, it's so interesting you mentioning Nietzsche, Andrew. The thing is With Nietzsche, he didn't really experience a reason to his intern. His struggle was more intellectualized rather than the practicality of Viktor Frankl's struggle, which was an absolute struggle against an oppressor, and understanding how his family could be murdered more or less in front of him. And the whole tragedy of the war and being in a prisoner of war camp, if you've ever been out to Auschwitz or any of the prisoner of war camps, it gives you an indication of the lack of spirituality out there. Just to sort of say, in Birkenau. Nothing grows around Birkenau at all. Spiritually devoid. It's so barren, it's so bare, it's so cold. And I think that is where internal struggle comes in, in a crisis. But did. Did you have to have a crisis toral for it to be awakened your spirituality again? I think for me, yes, because I think otherwise I was quite selfish and I probably would have just carried on in my own life. Like when everything was good, I didn't think about anything else because I was just sort of in my own world. And how does it change now? Because when everything started sort of crashing down, I just thought, oh, my God, I can't cope. Why is this happening? What can I do? And then I think it just sort of happened randomly. I just started reading different kind of books to do, say, meditation or spirituality to do, crystals, all different kind of things. And I just started to feel better, I guess. And then I started to pray more, started meditating and started trying to practice. And then from there I started to feel much, much better. Then I realized, you know, maybe it's something I should keep in my life forever, even if things go back to being good is something I would always need. And do you. Are you in tune with that every day? Yeah, I wake up, I meditate every day in the morning. I try and do it once at night also. And what about you, Andrew? Is it something that you engage with every day? Yeah, I mean, I kind of struggled with meditation for a long time, many years, just having the kind of focus to kind of, you know, concentrate or let myself go. And that was something which I kind of tried many times over the years. And I think only in the last five years have I really kind of found the benefits of it. So I wouldn't. I'd love to say that I do it every single day. I try it. I try and do like 10 minutes every day, but it's usually maybe every other day. And was it a crisis that led you to more of a spiritual Awakening, Andrew? No, I wouldn't say so. I mean, I. Like I said, well, I can say before, you know, I always had a really strong interest in anything metaphysical, actually. But, you know, I had this sort of Western, philosophically trained mind. You know, my undergraduate degree had been in philosophy. I'd done political, you know, philosophy at a level. And I had this very extreme, rationalistic way of looking at things, which meant, you know, I didn't need it to have proof for everything. So it was really, you know, trying to kind of bridge the gap between that and the spirituality, the spiritual world, which I knew, you know, I was tremendously interested in, but I just found it hard to access in a sort, you know, rather than saying, you know, some people go, oh, yeah, you know, I went to yoga or whatever. I got really spiritual. You know, I had to have more than just that. I needed to actually feel it making profound difference to me. And so it wasn't until really I lived in Asia, actually, where I started to maybe, because maybe just part of the environment I was in and the places I was going, the people I was meeting, just allowed me to. To, you know, either kind of just take myself off the hook a little bit and. And just be open to it. I guess I was. I was. So I took a while. I took a few months off at one stage. I think it's just before my 50th birthday, when I spent a lot of time in Bali and other places in Indonesia, and I really learned. I was with someone who was a sort of light worker who I've met quite by chance in Singapore. But we kind of established this friendship. And through her, I kind of, you know, she was a very, very smart, very interesting, clever person. And we had a lot of really great chats and, you know, the conversations and, you know, how she kind of framed meditation and the way of accessing our kind of, you know, internal spirit and, you know, the connectedness of everything else. I mean, I'll be frank. Okay. I mean, when I was younger, I used to experiment with leucogenic psychedelic drugs. You know, the connectedness of everything was something I knew was there. It was almost like I had a glimpse into it, but being able to sort of find it without that was what I really set my heart on doing. And that was the thing I found difficult. But I didn't want to just be able to do that thing just by using substances. And I think it was, you know, through. Through my experiences in Asia, I found a way of doing that on a sort of natural level. And so There wasn't really any kind of crisis at that point. It was more, you know, I was actually, you know, embracing it and getting away from my sort of Western rationalist, extreme rationalistic, kind of like thought processes and learning to access the heart and open it up and that being part of my body and my body being part of the, you know, the universe and feeling that connectedness. I think the crisis I had actually with later on. But that was more like a kind of crisis, practical crisis, in terms of, you know, just extreme upheaval and unpredictability in my life and, you know, having the foundations taken away from me where I was living and, you know, the crisis around Covid and stuff. And I think. I think what my spirituality did was enable me to handle that in a much more calmer way that prevented me from getting kind of caught up in the weeds of it and actually just kind of being able to kind of go with the flow and get through it without causing myself any sort of extreme mental or physical breakdown. Right. So it's interesting that. A couple of questions I'll ask you first, Tarrel, because you. A question I was going to ask anyway, Andrews, but, you know, let's talk about recreational drugs. In the 60s, there was this whole thing, wasn't it? Came out of the Second World War and, you know, the hippie all came alive and they're all smoking pot, as they called it, and as a spiritual awakener. So the whole 60s was, you know, the Woodstock. They were all looking at life through a totally different lens. And then you had people like RD Lang and others who were using LSD as trying to understand the mind a bit more. So my question to both of you is it's not relevant whether you've used recreational drugs or not. And I doubt if there are many young people who haven't tried some subscription. But the question is, is it really a quest to awaken the spirit in a quicker way? Is it really a way to elevate ourselves into a spiritual dimension rather than just reaching for happiness? Because, you know, when people take Ayahuasca, it's like a fast track into spirituality, which is almost talking about Andrew, but. And I always doubt that, but here we are. Loads and loads of people take drugs to almost get away from this life, but are they really searching for that spiritual dimension? What do you think, Tarrell? Kind of. Because I guess it's right. They probably do it for some kind of escapism, I guess probably was out of curiosity, but I don't know if they're looking For a spiritual awakening. Or maybe they just are tired of living in this life and they just want to break for a few hours. And what part of this life do you think they get tired of? I think just the nine to five, you know, the like paying bills, working day to day living. Yeah. Is it because it's so regimented? I mean, it's not that long that we've had a regimented life in terms of decades, because say before the 1920s, even before that, and even in the 18th century when industrialization came in, or the 19th century rather, you know, people worked on farms and it was nature that took over. Now we're industrialized even more. Do you think that compounds into our need? Need for escapism, Taurul? Yeah, I believe so. And especially now with all the social media and even more things, it's like people just want to escape more than ever before. And what do you think, Andrew? Do you think that there's that element to it? And do you think. What about just a quick one with you, Tyrell? What about the fast track to spirituality? Do you think people are trying to fast track in? Yeah, 100%. Because how you said the ayahuasca is like such a trend now. So people will say, oh, I want to go to Peru, oh, I met this shaman. Or you know, they don't want to put in the work for the meditation or like, you know, the amount of time it takes or that they just want to quick figure out tomorrow. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's hard to comment on other people. I mean, what I can say about myself is, you know, I, I didn't get into drugs to escape the humdrum 9 to 5 reality because I was actually, you know, a fairly kind of living a fairly privileged existence as a middle class student at university. But so for me it was always there. I mean, it's true there was a recreational element to it, some stage. I suppose it was the end of the 80s and you know, the second summer of love, but it was really predated that a little bit. And it was more, you know, I always felt like I wasn't going to do it unless I was actually going to learn from the experience. That was really, that was really my rule. And I suppose that kind of eventually got swept up along the way somewhere, you know, with the mass, kind of the mass, you know, movement that kind of started to turn everyone on. And I guess a lot of that, you know, maybe that some of that did become a little bit, you know, just recreational, you know, for Purely for sort of instant gratification, but in the back of my mind. And really for me it was always, I'm not going to do this unless I'm going to learn from it. And, you know, the point that you were just discussing with Toro, I. I think you're right. People sort of, I think, you know, it can be a glimpse of the other world. It can be a glimpse into, you know, the other side of the coin, so to speak. But what I think that did for me was show me that, you know, that, that, that, that exists. And you don't need to necessarily, or you shouldn't necessarily only be able to access it by taking drugs. But, yeah, it's an easy option. A lot of people do that. I was talking to someone, sort of younger person, my nephew, recently, and he was saying, oh, you know, but surely it's, you know, it's like, why not take it? Because it gets you there quicker. It's like, if you've got a thousand mile drive to, you know, journey to make, why not take a car? And I was like, well, put it this way, you know, think about if you took that journey on a bicycle or walked, you know, you might not discover that person that you fall in love with, or you might miss that beautiful vista you see on the way. You know, it's about putting the work in. And I think that's the problem. We got a culture that is so, you know, based on instant gratification and shortcuts. Our best. But, you know, as my kind of advice and my spiritual advisor sort of really made it clear is, you know, achieving that sort of enlightenment is one thing, but then you've really got to put the work in continuously afterwards because otherwise, you know, you won't. You know, the biggest mistake we can all make in all our lives is to think that we know everything, right? We've got it sorted out and then we can pull up the, pull up the drawbridge and just think we've got it all figured out. Of course, you know, everything changes and life is a continual learning experience. So, you know, that involves being. Keeping your mind open, keeping your heart open and being. Being prepared to put the work into, whether it's meditation or yoga or exercise or whatever, whatever. We're reading a book, right? So I'm not going to comment too much on the fact that maybe social media is making all that difficult. I can only talk from my own perspective, but I do think, I do think that that is essential. But I have hope that I think people, I think there is a Sort of a sort of awakening happening. And I don't mean that from a sort of woke point, you know, woke kind of stereotypical way. I just mean I think that people have kind of realized, or a lot of people are realizing, that kind of the sort of reality that's been constructed for them from an external point of view has been forced upon them, is changing. I see examples of that happening every day. So, you know, I'm optimistic for the future from that point of view. And it's interesting, when we had our first lockdown, I had a very interesting conversation with somebody who's in media, in production. We talked about the smaller decisions that you make in everyday life that are unnoticed by the rest of the world is where your test is. So coming back to the Islam, Muslim approach, is spirituality and crises a test? Can it be a test for you? You think about that principle, Tarl Yes. And, you know, how do you monitor that test? How do you know whether you've passed the test? I, I call it passing the test on an internal level because I believe in, I believe in that myself when it's a test. But how do you see it? How do you. I agree with Andrew how he said, like, you never have fully, you know, figured everything out. Is it like I'll read one book and I'll think, oh, I really enjoyed that, learn different things from that, then I'll read a different technique. So I think, you know, it is like a kind of evolution where you're constantly learning different things that you didn't know before. So I do think the crisis is not that you pass it, but it maybe pushed you into a catalyst of then learning about that type of life. Yeah, and I think sometimes. I'd like your answer shortly, Andrew, but I do think we're kicked into touch sometimes because, and I mean that sometimes life kicks you metaphorically into a situation that you wouldn't have taken yourself down naturally, but you have to experience. And it's in that experience that you totally twist and turn. You struggle with the experience and you try to find, hold on to a lifeline. It's like when you do when you're deep sea diving, there's always a line that goes up and if you haven't got that line, how to come back out of it. And I think life can sometimes do that. That really makes you entangle with the world and you've got to find your way out. And did you see that your crisis was a test, Andrew? No, I didn't see it that way. I mean, I really take Your point is interesting because, you know, I was, I was in a relationship with a Muslim girl for quite a long time and, and that was how she viewed things. But for me it was also kind of like her attitude towards kind of crisis was. Although, you know, it was accepting and she kind of, but, but almost too accepting. You know, it's like you couldn't get round these problems so you just let them happen and, and you don't. And actually, you know, from my kind of Western standpoint, I was like looking, look, you've got a problem to solve. And you know, actually there are a few things you could do. But you know, it was very much kind of, you know, and Shara sort of approach. And I just thought, well, yeah, okay, we can all meditate every day and pray to Allah and hope that things will be okay, but actually there are some, there are some things that we can actively do to, to stay, you know, to kind of stave off the worst consequences of this is of what's happening. And so I do know what you're saying about, you know, things can be sent to test us. But I don't like to kind of just give in to, you know, to fight on those sort of things too much. I prefer to, you know, as much as I can. If I can do something about it, then I bloody well will. And I think that's the human condition, isn't it? The ability to act on something that you're given. It depends how much spirituality leads you or you are inspired by it as opposed to leading your life. Because you know, there are some religions that give you the basic steps and I think they need to be transformed. And perhaps at this moment in time we're going through a transformation of those spiritual steps that people can be led by. Because you know, if you look at the old mythology and you look at the sort of the heroes like the Odysseus and Heracles, or, you know, they had to overcome certain struggles in order to reach their goals. And I think our human condition gives us that ability to do that. Do you find that your meditation helps you with that aspect of yourself? Toro? Does it help you find answers to how to. I would say maybe not find all the answers, but it helped my like temperament or it helped my emotions. Where before maybe I would lead with either being upset or being angry. But now I do feel more clear headed. I do try and practice every day, but I'm not gonna lie, there are times when I. But I do notice it when I miss one day and I go back to it, I feel much more positive. Much better round. Like more well being. Yeah. You feel easier in dealing with. Do you also find it easy to deal with other people's emotions rather than just. Yeah. Whereas before, probably get more emotionally invested before, probably take it on board more. Whereas now, because I do the meditation, I feel more clear when I'm listening to what they're saying, but at the same time, I'm sort of separated from that. And you find that you're. When you meditate. I don't meditate, by the way. I'll come to that in a minute. But Andrea, how do you find meditation? Does that help you? Yeah, no. I very much share what Taro just said. It doesn't necessarily solve the issues you're facing, but it gives you, I think, a set of kind of tools to deal with it. And I definitely agree about being able to handle other people's, you know, emotions and kind of just the craziness of the world. Because if you're settled in yourself and you're centered then in your feet, you know, whether that's mentally, spiritually and your feet are firmly planted on the ground, then. Then, you know, you can. You can kind of deal with everything good and bad, I find easier. So, like, if I do like I say, you know, sometimes I get a little bit slack and I do miss a couple of days. And I noticed. Noticed that just in the fact that I might get wound up by things that I wouldn't do necessarily, you know, on another. On another good day. It's probably not all down to. Down to meditation, but it's certainly been a really good, you know, thing in my. In my arsenal of, you know, modern life is rubbish coping tools. I mean, I used to go to. I met a great friend actually on a sort of weekend meditation course which was to do with chakra clearing and things. And I've done a lot of work on that and I trained as a healer, but I think everybody's got to find their own way. But also you've got prayer, which I think is a little bit more specific, isn't it? Or you pray for others. And they have proven that thinking of others and praying for others can actually help heal them. Distance. Heal others by your own goodwill and thinking of them. And I quite like you said this earlier, Toral, that your spiritual awakening helped you think about others rather than just yourself. And I think this is almost stepping into adulthood, isn't it? All children think of themselves as they have to. And then as an adult, it's awakening the fact that you also have an impact on others. Do you think I'm going to come back? I'm going to come to the mind Soul connection, let's say. What about the mind? Your attitude? Does it mean that you question your own, Your own ability to think, how you take your own attitude towards the world? Do you think you're less narcissistic if you ever were, Tyrell, do you think? Definitely. So very narcissistic before, I just thought, everything's gonna go how I want, everything, me, me, me. Then when everything doesn't go right and everything comes crashing down, then you think, oh, my God, like, you know, maybe I should have thought of others before. Maybe I should have tried to be a bit, you know, kinder before. So, yeah, definitely. I think you helped me to be probably a better person and stuff. Yeah. And what about you, Andrew? Yeah, I mean, it's funny that. Because you know what? I think it has, like, made me less narcissistic. Not saying I ever was, but you know what I mean? But I've also seen the opposite. I've seen people who kind of embrace spirituality. And I'm kind of waving two fingers in the air here, you know, as a kind of. As in quote marks, because I've met some people who, you know, embrace yoga and, you know, or. Or the law of attraction or, you know, something to kind of deeply find something in themselves. And they are actually the most narcissistic people I've ever met. You know, whether it's because, you know, they're doing yoga because they want a tight butt and want to be sexy, and it's got nothing to do with the kind of spirituality of it, or they're trying to find themselves because actually what they're really doing is they're struggling with this, you know, dilemma inside them where they've got, you know, a lot extreme wealth. Well, not necessarily even extreme wealth, but just they're very, very privileged and. And they're feeling guilty about that or they're trying to justify that. So, yeah, I haven't met. I have met a lot of incredibly narcissistic spiritual people. I mean. Sorry, yeah, no, I was just gonna say that that's part of the. That's part of the lesson. Right. I mean, for me, it was all about gratitude, you know, really, really, really understanding gratitude. And forgiveness, self forgiveness as well. And that's a humbling thing. So I think, you know, the crucial test, I think. Well, if you want to call it a test, I think the crucial factor in anyone's spiritual journey is humility. That's very powerful. So do you therefore think as you say, Andrew? There's so many people who are out there and we all recognize people who've got so much money, they don't have to go through the struggles of day to day living, which is coming back to the concentration camp which Hay had to do, he struggled with. Am I going to live today? Am I going to get enough food? And when you read A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, which was a book I read at 16, and it totally sort of made me think about life in a different way, which was, you know, how much, if you concentrate on what I'm doing today, how much food I'm going to have? Am I going to have enough food? Is there enough water? Am I warm enough? Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the basic needs. Have I got people around that care for me and I care for and just that basic concept of life. Then that's a good starting point. But do people need the steps, the 12 steps in alcoholics Anonymous? Do you need steps to follow or a mentor? Andrew, you said you had somebody, a light worker that influenced you. Do you need that? Listen, I think everyone's, everyone's journey is different, right? It's, it's, it's, it reveals itself. I mean, I think if you're lucky enough, and I mean really lucky enough because there are a lot of fakes out there. I think if you're lucky enough to come into contact with someone that can be a mentor and they get genuinely, you know, authentic, then that is, that's tremendous. I mean, I think I believe in mentorship anyway, right? I'm a business. I, I'm a mentor in business. I use Ben mentors in business. And it's tremendously, tremendously powerful assistance. But I think, you know, you could discover it through. I don't know, you could discover, I mean, you could discover it through dance. You could discover it through, you know, there's, there's so many. I don't think I want to be prescriptive. I'd like to be prescriptive about it because I think that everyone's journey is different and everyone's kind of access to that side is going to be really dependent on their own experience. So, you know, to try and say to someone, you should go in that direction, you should take this path. It might not be right for them. You know, they've got to find their own way. Now that puts a burden on the person because, you know, they've got to do it because they want to do it not because they feel like they ought to do it. So, you know, it's about finding that voice within you. And I, you know, going back to Toro's point about the noise around, you know, for people on social media and all that, I guess it makes it hard, right, to really listen. And so perhaps, you know, it's good, I think that, you know, we have wellness classes in school these days and we're teaching, you know, more that kind of side of it because I think it will make kids more receptive. But I don't expect a 17 or an 18 year old to suddenly find they've got a direct, you know, telephone to the Buddha, you know, or wherever. I mean, you know, I mean, it's got to, it's got to happen in your, in your own, in your own journey. Maybe it happened at 25, maybe it happened at 65. It doesn't matter really. But do you think, Turrel, that people need more guidance? More specific guidance? Yes and no. Because at the same time I agree with, and you said, like with young people, they say the 16, 17, it's like how I felt like, you know, they want to see their friends or go out. It's probably something they're not so interested. So if you maybe try and speak to them about it, maybe they'll feel like, you know, being sort of pushed down their throat, so to say. Or maybe it would help them, but it would depend, like they would have to discover on their own. Maybe if they just saw a book lying around, like in the house, or started to read it or saw something on TV or Netflix, maybe then it could develop by themselves. But I don't know, guidance, because maybe it needs to come to them sort of thing, or they sort of find it in their own way. What do you mean? Give us a. Give us a little bit more on your bird flying around the house concept. Did you see that as a spiritual bird? A book like, say, in New York, one of my roommates had a book. I forget the name, but it was to do with Christianity. One day I just picked it up, started looking at it and it was so interesting. So like that, for example, maybe they would be somewhere and then be exposed to a certain thing, maybe on holiday or somewhere, and then they could get into something organically. Well, you know, years ago again, coming back to our sort of history, we were always given guidance in order to a. Encourage our lives to be better, but also not to behave in a negative fashion towards others. And do you think we're given Free, too much free reign without realizing. So people fall into a trap of doing something without really realizing the repercussions. Is that something that we need more of understanding guidance in that? Because a lot of people do depend on television and TV stories. Yeah, I mean if, Sorry, don't know. Yeah, go on. Yeah. No, I was just going to say, you know, Terrell's point about reading a book is so important. Important. Right. You know, books are amazing and when I was a kid I read, you know, I was just so hungry for reading all the time. Now wherever I could get find a book, you know, I, I, I wonder, you know, just touching on the religious sort of side of things we're talking about before. I mean, I think you're right that, that we, you know, people don't, you know, there are so many influences from, from television or online or whatever, but also just kind of extreme individualism that we don't, we don't owe, owe any duty to anything other than ourselves. And one of the things that you know, religious or religion did, not that I'm, you know, when I say religion I'm not, I'm not talking about organized religion, but just like the message, whether it's Hindu, Islam, Christianity or Judaism, whatever message is still the same, right? It's love one another, have respect for one another, another. And I think, you know, in days gone by when that was more maybe formally part of people's lives, they, they had some kind of framework that they, you know, they were brought up developing. Unfortunately, you know, a lot of it got hijacked from a point of kind of view of sort of, you know, dogmatic control. But in the absence of that, where the playing field is literally open for everything, then, then I think people struggle to have any sort of construct to sort of build their own code of ethics, if you like, upon. And I think that's probably, possibly why, you know, there's maybe a bit of a vacuum of that and you know, like Torah was saying earlier on, people seem to, you know, people maybe found that a lot in the 60s and 90s or whatever in drugs because you know, it gave a meaning, at least a short term meaning for a few hours on a Saturday night. But it gave him a bit of a sort of there is more to life than just this and you know, our lives. I mean I remember when I was in, you know, when I was a young man and I was living in Pakistan up in the Hindu Kush mountains and you know, when I, I did, I remember I really what it taught me more than anything else was how much. In the west, we traded community, a sense of community for just kind of, you know, convenience and comfort. So, you know, although the fact that it was people living in. In really basic conditions, I wouldn't say kind of extreme poverty, but they didn't have much, but they had enough. But they had. But the fabric of society was so much stronger than in, you know, what I was used to in the uk and the only thing I could see that we traded off for the fact that we'd given ourselves license to build this extremely materialistic life for ourselves, which actually, by its own nature precluded having kindness and thought for other people, because it was all about collecting for yourself. It's all about, you know, elbowing out everyone else out of the way, whether it was in work or. Or life, in order to get ahead and be able to have more and have a more kind of materially comfortable life. So, you know, that unrestrained over the last 20, 30 years has really led. Led to the point where. Which would be another. Probably another program subject, where we have this crisis in capitalism because it really is very hard. It's. It's essentially hollow. Yeah. And it's the Wall street where the green dollar became the God, the golden idol or the green idol. What does spirituality look like? You know, what does. Do you have a higher power? Do you have a personification of that? Because fundamentally that's what it is, isn't it? Do you have a personification of that that you recognize or is it a sense toral? I would say probably both, because we have idols, as in, you know, like in Christianity or Hinduism. But I would say for me, it's more of a general higher power, like when I meditate more, that I feel a sense of, you know, something that may be watching over us or that we're going to be okay. So it's a general feeling, I would say. That's interesting. Okay. I wanted to see a slightly change to the more social impact perhaps of lack of regular structured religion to the recent debate on what is called health economics. I don't know if you read about this, but they're saying that some lives are less valuable than others because they are. Yeah. With that lady with the bowel cancer. Yeah. So it's. They're less healthy physically. And so as the world is making more scientific statements now, we're relying on people who are scientifically led. And this particular scientist was saying that she had less value in this particular case than others because physically, structurally, in that physical structure, she was less Healthy. What do you feel about that Toro? Where do you think we're going as a society? I think that's terrible. Like, who is he to say she's less valuable? Because if she was his family member, he wouldn't be saying that if that was his sister or his friend. And I don't know, I think that's really wrong because you can't just put a value on that saying, oh, with this Covid thing, oh, well, she would be taking up a bed and she's less valuable. That's not fair. Oh, and maybe she would have survived Covid, maybe she would survive the cancer. We don't know. So the fact that he could just push her to one side is so unfair. We could say he's significantly older than her, that he is less value, you know, So I think it's a dangerous part to get up. What about you, Andrew? Yeah, that's an interesting point. I think, I think that it's just another word, another term for eugenics. Right. It seems, it seems that, I mean, a lot of things from the late 19th and early 20th century are now and now, now coming back into the sort of public debate. And I think that's a prime example of one. I mean, it's, I think, you know, the fact they put the term economics next to it is interesting because, you know, from the, say, like from a utilitarian point of view, then, you know, the, the greatest good for the greatest number, et cetera, then you could say that someone who kind of abuses their life, smokes, drinks heavily, you know, eats a lot of fatty food, becomes a burden on the, on society from, especially in the UK with the nhs. Right. Is there's an argument, or at least there's a kind of. There is, There's a point of view that would say someone like that is leading a socially irresponsible life. Now, that kind of clashes with the sort of, well, you know, it's personal freedom, etc. Etc. And you can see that it's not this, it's not a black and white. Right. There are shades in that argument. But as far as being able to say to someone, you know, and I think that's, you know, there are some eugenicists out there now who are saying that, you know, that the people's social and employment and intellectual capabilities are all determined by genetics, is, is, is a horrendous kind of, you know, I mean, that's, that's essentially where we got to with World War II, Germany. Right. So I think it's essentially a dangerous argument to sort of portray it in that, in those terms. Having said that, like I said, you know, there is a sort of debate to be had out there with incredibly shrinking resources or scarcer resources. How do we, how do we address that issue where people, you know, there is a need for a healthier lifestyle. Right. Because we all have a. I think it's, you know, it's funny, I think you never think about the NHS when you're younger unless you've had some terrible reason to actually have to use it operationally or, or, you know, or something. Most people don't even access NHS until they're well into the, you know, into their 40s and 50s. Right. So there is a sort of lack of understanding about, about, you know, the, the, the, the gift it is. Or how compared to other countries. But, you know, there's definitely an argument to be made or a debate to be heard about how we allocate resources. And I think that individuals have as much as an important part to play in. That is. No, it isn't acceptable enough just to think, well, you know, I abused myself my whole life and now you've got to look after me. I think, you know, I think we need to kind of instill that in people that you do need. And I think that's happening actually, that, you know, people need to take greater care of themselves. But coming back to your eugenics, which was started in Hollywood, by the way, in Los Angeles, the Gen X movement, and there's a big story around that which we haven't got time to go into. But yes, people are moving towards the vehicle, our vehicle, our spiritual vehicle, as people often say, is our body and how we treat that. But surely we only have a problem if we rely on the nhs and if you are a drunken alcoholic, which I'm, you know, a drunkard, a drug taker, and you couldn't care less about life, well, surely that is your choice. As long as I presume the question is, do you rely on others to make you healthy again? Well, the problem comes in otherwise, do your own thing, isn't it? Lead your own life plan and do your own thing. But we're coming closely to the end. But before we come to end it on a lighter note, after eugenics is such a profoundly. I think it's such an interesting point because it will encroach on our lives. The scientists are encroaching. Although I'd like to throw in the relationship between cg, Jung and Pauli about quantum mechanics and the relationship there, that sort of encouraged Debate, discussion and change on how we do affect each other. And the Greeks always had five elements. Fire, air, earth, water and ether. And in our etheric body that I think we pick things up from people. And I think that's where eugenics and the scientists miss that point that there is such a big profound change that happens within us and can affect change in others. And I love that thought that we. And that's how our spirituality extends and grows. But moving on to something a little bit more light hearted before we finish comes from the Monty Python Meaning of Life. And their notes were they had their tenants to their meaning of life which was. And I'd like you to think about as I'm reading this to add one yourselves please is try to be nice to people. Avoid eating fat. Read a good book every now and then. Get some walking in. Try to live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations. Is there something you'd like to add to that Toril? I would say that here a lot of the points especially like try to be nice to one another. That's probably the main one. Yeah, it sounds very simplistic but it's very powerful. Try to be, to be nice and think of others. Definitely. Andrew, do you want to add to the Monty Python tenets? Yeah, I think you know, I would sum it up, it was just, you know, try not to be a dick. Explore that. Well, I mean you know I've got nothing against dicks but you know, I think you know, you can, you can be someone that just kind of is ego driven, doesn't care about other people, is. Is pure. Don't be selfish, you know, don't be selfish. Practice kindness and, and love. Yeah. It's also that if you look at everybody is compartmentalized nowadays. You know somebody's. You're narcissistic. And I have people obviously as a, when I work as a psychotherapist am I, is my girlfriend a narcissist? Everybody wants to make is my boyfriend a psychopath or you know, a sociopath. And we have all these labels but I think it comes, it's got to come down to humor a bit. And I do bang on about humour because that was part of my sort of working life and it still is that if we can engage in humor a little bit more life will be better. So you know, making others laugh at the cost of you self deprecation is a very big one. And I think also that just to know that psychopaths don't laugh at themselves if you Ever say to somebody something about yourself? If you introduce yourself and say something funny about yourself and they can't do that or can't recognize that there's a part of themselves that could be made into humor, you've really got to look twice about who are they that you're getting into a relationship with? I think that's a good one to think about. But I think also that if you were to add sort of a message, do you think our society. How should it then cope with the science of the world and adding spirituality? Is meditation enough? Should there be something else? What's the message for society? How do you help it along yourselves? How do you bring. I don't know if we could help. I think, you know, with spiritual awakening, they say at the same time, like, the vibration of every. Should probably go up. So maybe they would get their own sign in their own way and they would start to go on their path. I don't know if we could necessarily help them, but maybe if we were calmer, you know, maybe that would reflect in their personality also. Yeah. Do you think that by talking the way. I mean, this is great. Thank you for coming here. But do you think this is part of it, talking about it more? I think talk about it only until maybe you experience it yourself. Maybe when you just hear, like, maybe I'd heard about it before, but I didn't really take no mind in it. But then when you discover it for yourself, then you feel so passionate about it that you can talk to others. Yeah. And you feel that you want to pursue it for yourself. I think before when I would hear about it, I didn't really think much of it. I was just like, yeah, sounds okay. Like when you are in your own problem or your own discovery of it, then you want to pursue it further. And you. Andrew. Yeah. I mean, just on the scientific point, you know, how you kind of, you know, blend that in or how you kind of integrate that with or how that meets spirituality. I think that we're on the. I think actually think we're on the brink of an incredible discoveries from. In that point of view. I mean, you know, I don't, you know, there's been work with, you know, CERN on understanding all the kind of God particle you could call it. But. But I don't really pay too much attention to that because I'm not a physicist. But. But I do think that there was a lot to do with, as Toro was mentioned about vibrational energy and quantum physics. And actually there's. There's a Lot. A lot of kind of ground that's being kind of, you know, a lot of science, you know, used to be if you're a scientist, you're an atheist or, you know, that classic term. But I think now there's much more room for spiritualists and scientists to kind of coexist in the same room because it seems like there's a much more of an understanding going into how, you know, the world of physics and quantum physics and how that relates to a lot of the things that we're discovering about spirituality. Right. The connectedness of everything, the fact that we are part of the universe, literally physically, you know, as well as in a spiritual sense. So. So I think that we're, you know, we're kind of entering a new era in that kind of level of understanding. I think that as I mentioned, and it's such a big subject just to sort of touch on it, to look into synchronicity, which are meaningful events that happen in our lives, not just of kind coincidences, but events on an energetic level that have a meaning to us and how we can, if we do use that vibration, not only talk to people, but also engage with that conversation and understanding of coincidence and meaning. And what does that actually mean to you? And what can we to each other? And I do believe in the act of kindness. Doing something for somebody else, first and foremost, can actually make people come away from their own stresses and distress. Because for me, if I think of somebody else and act upon that, I often find that my state is in a totally different place. And if I can help somebody else, I often feel a lot better. But thank you. I would just like to say thank you to both of you, Toral Odedra, for joining me today and Andrew Darling, and your very inspirational conversation. It's been a pleasure. Thanks very much, Maria. Thank you so much, Maria. Yeah, thanks, Torul. Thanks. So nice talking to you. And till we have our next you Mind Matters with men's radio station and women's radio station. My name is Dr. Maria Kampinska and thank you for listening. Are you feeling anxious? Online therapy 247 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 0207-553-5080 and check out our website onlinetherapy247.com Sam.