Your Mind Matters With Maria Kempinska – Sofia Nicodemo & Joel Aston, Teenage Minds Part 1

Can this time of pressure bring success or are they mutually exclusive? And is pressure helpful for young minds? I'm Dr. Maria Kompinska. I'm a business owner and I'm in the world of entertainment. I've trained as a drama therapist. I've been a performer, not necessarily a successful one. I do practice psychotherapy. And this is yous Mind Matters. I'm discussing the future of young minds with two amazing young people that I haven't had to persuade. They've been very kind to join me today in discussing the topics of pressure and success. And they are Sophia Nicodemo and Joel Aston. Both of them have experienced anxiety and I think everybody at this moment experiences some form of anxiety, lots of pressure. And they also have stress, of course. And they're going to talk about how they have coped with anxiety and pressure and social issues that impact on them personally, but also what they've experienced. And I've actually asked them to be the voice of the young people around them, because I think they can give us a view into the world of the younger mind. And I am, you know, very, very keen for us together to explore how younger minds are dealing with not only what is happening in the world today, but also their own interpretation of the help they're given. Is the giving? Is the help adequate? Is it not adequate? Are we really reaching the depths of the young minds that we have around us today? They are so sophisticated, they're so caring and they are so knowledgeable and highly intelligent. And I think we're missing a trick there as adults when we try to talk to them. But first of all, Sofia, could you please introduce yourself? Hiya. I'm Sophia Nicodemo. I have been studying theatre for years now and I've decided now to take a branch into doing filmmaking. And I'm 17 years old. Lovely. And what have you been studying? Were you doing theatre along with your normal studies? Sofia? I have been studying theatre, I guess, kind of professionally for about four years. And along with that, I had for two of those years I also had my GCSEs, so I had to kind of balance all that out. But I've been doing theatre as, like a hobby, I guess you would. Yeah, I guess you'd call it for about. Since I was about 6 or 7. Okay. So I've done it for a while. Mm, lovely. Joel, can you just give us a little bit of your background? And welcome. Hi, everyone, I'm Joel Aston. I'm now. I'm 19 and I'm studying biochemistry at university now, specifically the University of Oxford, and I have been doing like drama and theater in my life as a hobby. I've never formally moved into it or studied it as a subject, but for the majority of my Life, since around 6 or 7, just like Sophia, and both of you are and have experienced both the pressure of theatre and the pressure of exams, and every exam that you do take and every theatre show that you perform in, there is a certain amount of pressure, isn't there? Because both of them to some extent require different types of performance. You've either in an exam, you've got to perform, you've got to get all your thoughts out in that exam during that period of time, an hour, two hours, hour and a half, or in the theatre, you've got to perform your lines within that sort of framework of the performance, which is normally, again, two hours with the break. Yeah. Are they comparable? Can you see a comparison between the two? Sophia, what do you think? Yeah, I'd say so. Because, well, in a sense of like, with theatre, if you, you can obviously kind of ad lib and save it, but if you really mess up a line or in your scene or something, you kind of mess up the whole play in a sense. So there is a lot of pressure on you in that specific moment to make sure you keep the story going and to make sure you keep the audience engaged and understanding what's happening. Because if you were to say a random thing or say it a bit too quietly so no one hears or anything like that, the audience might completely lose what's happening. And do you find the same, Joel? I think that they are comparable, but I would say that there's a different form of pressure inherently between the two only because if you want to go into theater and be a part of that play, you have to make that active decision, choose to do that and have some form of enjoyment in it. Like you have to actively learn those lines and do that kind of stuff of your own free will and volition. But when it comes to exams, they're mandatory. So you don't have that kind of choice to be like, oh, I'm enjoying this, I'm going to do this because I want to. It's. I have to do this. Oh, gosh. And is that true for all the exams? Do you feel like that or is there an exam that you don't mind doing so much? Have you just quite enjoy? Yeah, I think there are definitely some exams that I. I enjoy the subject going into it and I was confident going into the exam, but just the nature of them is very like, even some subjects that I really, really enjoyed the exam was just not really like, representative of that entire subject. And I didn't get to show my enthusiasm and enjoyment with within that, as you said, like two hour allotted slot for two years of, for example, for GCSE or two years for A levels. Right. So, yeah, I would say that there's obviously going to be things you enjoy, as most people do enjoy something, but you have to do more than just what you enjoy, which I think is the difference. Yeah. And do you feel the same, Sofia? Yeah, well, for me it feels like if I picked a subject that I enjoyed for GCSEs, by the time I'm doing the exam, because of how much I've been stressing out about this exam, I end up hating the subject because it's just so much stress. And you're just thinking, I have to pass this exam. And the schools aren't really teaching you everything there is to know about the subject, they're just teaching you how to pass the exam about the subject. So, yeah, like there definitely were some more exams, like English, I was a lot more relaxed, but other subjects like maths, I just could not get my head around at all. And were you given help in that? Were you given help in two different ways? I'm going to ask. One is obviously with the subject and secondly with how to handle the pressure of the exam. Sophia, were you given any of that? Well, with the subject, I got an out of school maths tutor to come in because I was just stressing out so much. I was convinced I was going to fail. So from about January until about May, I had a tutor every week. But when it comes to learning how to handle the exams, I remember we year 11, we had these. Oh, I can't remember what they were called, but they were basically these workshops that tried to teach us about how to handle exam stress and how to prepare for an exam and stuff like that, but most of it was just if you revise, you'll pass, which in some cases people can revise as much as they want, but if they haven't got the extra kind of support they need, they might not be able to pass. Like, I'm very lucky that I was able to get a maths tutor. And what was the worst time you experienced in an exam? Oh, probably my mock exams because I did awfully. I literally, I was in a big. I was in like the big exam hall and everything and I guess just my mind couldn't process, process that Enough. So I just ended up, especially with maths. I just didn't actually write anything on my page besides, like, maybe a page of work. So I had to get put into, like, a library to do my actual GCSEs, but just basically any exam that had maths in it, because I would end up walking out of there crying, convinced I failed, like, having, like, small nosebleeds out of stress and just stuff like that because of just how worked up I had been about this one subject since January, trying to pass it. And Joel, have you ever experienced anything like that? I think probably my most stressful exam was not my math, but in fact, one of my English exams for gcse. And that was mainly because I. It wasn't about the pressure that was put onto me in this case. It was more about the pressure I put onto myself because for English, I put so much revision in to try get, like, learn that perfect essay structure, memorize all these past, like, paper, like, questions and know what to say for all of them. And by doing all that, I was putting pressure on myself to perform and achieve in that examination. And as soon as I sat down in that exam and I saw the question, I was like, oh, no, I have forgotten everything. My head is empty. And then there was a bit of a panic that occurred. And I remember thinking after the exam, like, where did it all go wrong? I enjoyed English at one point. Like, I took joy of finding the nuance and interpretations from these things and letting my mind, like, work at that. And I naturally, like, feel joy when I was doing this. So when I was going into my second exam, I was like, just, let's ease off on the revision. You've done enough. Don't stress yourself out. Don't revise up until the exams. You're just about to go into the exam and have fun. Because it was the unseen part. I hadn't seen a lot of the content. I couldn't do that, like, memorizing structure and stuff, so I could just have fun with it. And I actually, God forbid, enjoyed that exam. Said too often. And did you pass? I did, yeah. I did well at the end, but it was. It was an interesting experience to me. I don't know. I couldn't tell you which paper I did better at, but I could tell you which paper I enjoyed more. I think that's important. And that's when you let go of the pressure for yourself. And was that. And Sophia, did you pass? Yeah, I passed maths. Excellent. Yeah, I got a. Well, it's a Level four. But, you know, going back to letters, that would have been a C. So that's a pass from. From, you know, a mock where you were walking out in tears. You, yourself, through those steps, you built up a few more skills, a few more understandings, and you passed. Yeah. So coming back to the question of pressure, which I'm sure we'll talk about, you know, in different ways now that you've done that, do you think you can face a little bit more pressure in other things? Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, the adult world these days is full of pressure. So I guess. What do you expect other sort of pressures to come your way? Oh, like work deadlines? Like, I'm already facing coursework deadlines. Yeah, yeah, just like. Yeah, work deadlines. Like, the pressure of, you know, if people want it, maintaining, like, a family, keeping a family, maintaining a house, you know, being able to afford, you know, life essentials. That's all different elements of pressure. So I guess, in a way, it is kind of good that we're learning about pressure. So then it's less of a shock, I guess. Do you feel the same, Joel? I think there's always gonna be pressure that the world puts on you, whether it be through expectation, through roles that you have to uphold, through deadlines and stuff like that. There's always gonna be pressure put on to you from the society, under society, around you. But I think how. What kind of. What I've learned over the last few years is that doesn't necessarily mean you have to hold on to those and stress about them, and you can control how you react to those pressures that are put onto you. Because I. How I deal with, how I found that I've dealt with stress and pressure, and I had to find this the hard way is I kind of just carry it and like, not. Not unaware, like, unaware of it building, building, building up until it gets to the point that, like, it's. I'm at a breaking point and I need to relax and stop and drop everything. Right. And I think it's a matter of checking in with yourself as these pressures are coming in and seeing how much you're actually stressed about them. So you can manage and maintain your, like, a healthy mindset towards the challenges that you have. Because being overwhelmed is always. Is always going to lead to. Is something unhealthy. How do you do that then, Joel, what's the techniques you use? And I'll ask you shortly, Sofia, what's the techniques you then learn to use in dealing and checking in with yourself? Well, I think I'm quite like. I'm quite like a organized mind. Like, I like to have timetables and to do lists and stuff like that. So I always make a habit. And making a habit, I think is really important of making time on these organized places to have time for self reflection, for checking in with myself. And that could just be me talking to myself in a mirror. Right. It's a bit crazy, but it's what I need to sort of pull these kinds of thoughts and feelings out of me that I wouldn't have otherwise thought about. I also, like, have a few apps on, like, meditation stuff where there's time where I can just sit and be. And also, like, I have to relax from time to time. Like, I can't keep going, going, going. Like, there'll be a series. I'm looking forward to a movie I've been meaning to watch. And I'll be like, okay, today after this, I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna treat myself to do that. And is that what you've chosen to do, Sofia? Are you more in charge of your pressure? Because now that you've experienced the intensity of that pressure as you nosebleed and so on, are you now monitoring the work you have to do and the pressure that builds up inside you? Gonna be honest, I'm probably not the best with organization in my mind. Let's just put it like that. I like to think of my mind sometimes as a bunch of filing cabinets, and there's always a couple papers in the wrong cabinet. That's kind of how I see it. I see that it's quite normal. Yeah, definitely. But I kind of. For me, I relax by being around, like, or talking to the people that I care about. So I will always call up my friends and we'll play some games or, you know, if I. If I want someone close to me to come over and see me, I'll be like, obviously it's hard in the time we live in, but, yeah, video calls at the moment and just. Yeah, stuff like that. So that sort of distracts you, does it, for that moment that takes the pressure off through distraction. Yeah. Excellent. And so everybody. You know, I like your concept of the filing cabinets because I think that's what we all try to do to our minds. And it's great that you've got that. And I'm sure Joel was laughing as I was, because there is something that happens within our mind, and particularly a creative mind. And I know you're doing biochemistry, and we'll come to that job, which is, I think, creative in itself anyway, that we have to organize our own thoughts. And when you do, in my training, and I've trained extensively over the years, but there's still new things we learn because everybody is so individual that we do learn that, you know, what Freud and Jung and other psychologists try to do is create sort of order in our mind so we understand ourselves. So as you were saying, Joel, that you recognize the pressures building up. Is it a physical pressure? Is it a mental pressure? How do I release that? And you know, with you there, Sophia, you're talking to your friends and Joel, you actually have got some meditation tapes that you listen to or apps that you listen to. And I think it's the same with adults. They equally need to find ways that they can calm themselves down and not be so responsive to pressure from the outside world. But one thing that Jung devised and something he discussed in the 1920s was psychological types. And in the psychological types he talked about, do people need to go inside to organize themselves and that self talk, or do they have to do it with others? And it looks as if you're both one or the other. So it sounds as if you're a little bit more introverted, Joel, where you go inside and Sophia, you go outside to people to get a response from them. But do you feel that you can sense around people when their pressure is building up? Can you do that, Joel? Are you conscious of other people's pressure? Yeah, I think sometimes I'm even hyper aware because you can tell through body language through. Especially if you know someone like quite well, you can tell how they're speaking to you and like, like if they're like snappy or not. Because I feel like when people are more and more pressured, they've got like a shorter fuse, if that makes sense. Because they're so stressed that they can't, you know, the threshold for stress is much lower because they're already at this like, level that's higher than usual. And so I feel like being able to manage and like try to help diffuse that sometimes or just giving them the space is something that I've grown quite accustomed to, especially being around, you know, people who moved into the guinea pigs for the new GCSEs. And then like, obviously my friends and I go like trying to navigate uni during COVID and stuff like that. It's like stress is kind of a prerequisite now and then. So it's quite good to be able to pick up on that, especially with those close to me. And I feel like I found that I was much better at noticing other people were stressed than I was stressed, which is quite an interesting conclusion to come to. Yeah. And so you find dealing with other people's stress is good to give them space? Do you? Sometimes, I think it depends, because especially when people aren't aware of their stress, like, trying to help them and trying to talk them through it and stuff can do more harm than good because people need to figure out, you know, like, you have to give people the space to figure it out themselves before they can, like, get help. Right. Like, I think that's a universal saying, but especially with stress, like, you can't, you know, overwhelm them and try push, because that's just gonna make them more stressed. Yeah. And do you do it differently, Sofia? Do you engage when people are stressed? Do you try to help? Is that your way with people when you sense that somebody's stressed? If. Well, I'm kind of the same as Joel in the sense of I feel like I can just pick up, even, like, through, like, people messaging me. I feel like I can pick up when people are not having the best day or they're stressed and stuff like that. But I will always, like, hint at giving them help, going like, oh, if you need anything, like, I'm here if you need to talk to me. But if they don't, if they don't want to accept that, that's completely fine and they can figure it out for themselves. Like, I will never pressure someone into letting me help them if they don't want that help. But if someone actively says to me or kind of implies that they would like to talk to someone or would like some help, you know, I. I'm. I feel like I would be there to be like, yeah, come on, let's talk about it. What's up? You can always extend the helping hand. Yeah. Their choice to, like, take it or not. And do you both ask for help yourselves. Or are you the ones that support others? I'd say I'm probably more. I'm a lot better than I used to be in the sense of, like, a year or so ago. I would never ask for help with anything. But I feel like through, like, people that I've been around, they've who have said, like, you can talk to me. I'm here. I am a lot more open with being like, yeah, I'm. I need some help right now. But a year ago or like, a year and a half, you around that. I just. I just. Yeah, I never Ever asked for help. Really? Yeah. And I think that's kind of with the. If we bring it, like back to exams and stuff in certain places, that's kind of the environment when it's talking about stress. Like, obviously they have the offer of, like, there's a counselor, but like, any actual sec. Any actual, like, stress, like workshops and stuff that they bring up are like, extra. They're not like, they're not, you know, like, mandatory. They're, oh, we did good. Here's a workshop on how to deal with your stress. And because it's not like mainstream, it's not like, seen by experts and stuff, it's kind of usually one teacher who's like, googled something or, you know, it's like an organization comes in and that can be helpful. But with that mindset, it's difficult to know that you can talk to people about your stress because that kind of, that, that kind of dialogue hasn't been opened up. You have to actively find and open that dialogue. And a lot of people aren't able to do that when they're stressed because they're already too overwhelmed to actively search that out. Yes. I've often thought that there is this big push nowadays with mental health, number one, for everybody to open up and number two, to reach out. And in my experience, when I deal with clients who are going through extraordinary pressure and there's a debate between what do I continue doing, how can I cope with this? That you have to reach in to them because they can't reach out. And I should think that's the same with younger people. But also, do you feel that if you're. There's too much openness, do you think people are expected to feel anxious and stressed? Oh, I mean, like, I guess if you're, if you're in an environment, you like a year 11 GCSE or even year 13, A level or even a uni environment, there's always going to be a feeling of pressure, a feeling of stress, because even if it's not the majority, people will be walking around feeling stressed. And that can, like, kind of expand and let make other people kind of feel that. And I feel like in a sense of talking about this stress, I mean, I know I got it off a friend once when I was talking about it. I was like, oh, yeah, this is just really stressing me out. And it was like, well, everyone's going through the same thing. And that was just, you know, cut off, disregard. Everyone's going through the same thing, so don't talk about it. Yeah, I definitely experienced that. And sorry if I'm cutting you off, but. But I think, like, that's all the more reason to talk about it. Like. Like, stressing or suffering, like, in silence and alone can be so much worse. Like, so much worse, even deadly than talking to your. Like, I would not have been able to get through my first time of uni without talking to the people around me constantly about how stressed I was and, like, them talking as well. I didn't feel alone because they also felt stressed. I wasn't just, like, underperforming. We were all stressed together. And I think there was a beauty in that. And I get what you're saying about, you know, like, Mario, about, like, how if you create like, a kind of culture of people over sharing stuff and how people might just, like, feel anxious through, like, diffusion. But that's perhaps why they should start that dialogue with a professional, with someone who's trained in it, who can manage and understand that. So people get the tools so that they can start to. When they share that and create that space with friends and with colleagues or whatever, they have the vocabulary, they have the toolkit to be able to make sure that that doesn't happen and that they're sharing and unloading and making sure that they don't feel, you know, overwhelmed. Yeah. And what's so interesting that you've both said that, you know, to be able to reach out to people in a similar position so that you can all discuss the problems you're going through or the stresses you're going through because you can learn from each other. Do you think, though, that you are taught enough skills at that point, you know, something to pick up on what you were saying? Joel, at university, you might have a lecturer who's read something and they want to share that. Do you think there's enough people who've been trained to help you, you know, to really understand what's going on? And do you think that there are other skills that could be taught to you in different ways, you know, to help with the pressure to understand? Right. You're going into your first year. This is the type of thing that you might going through. Do you think that's helpful for you? Yeah, I think my year was a bit interesting because obviously not only were they dealing with a cohort of freshers, which they've dealt with so many times before, they're also dealing with COVID guidelines and that risk and that's going on constantly in the background, and all these, like, new rules and regulations that need to be Upheld in order to, like, maintain safety. So I think there was a pressure put on. We have, like, a welfare system, but I think personally, the welfare system, which is run by the students, did a fantastic job at handling and dealing with that. Do I think that more people should be trained in that and be able to deal with that? And that should increase and increase. People who have a healthy dialogue about stress have tools and abilities to be able to deal with them, rather than just one random session in secondary school or in sixth form. Yes, definitely. That should become more of a norm. But I think the people who are trained in them, at least my interactions are like, at least the roles within the college that I go to. You have to run for it. You have to, like, want it. You have to be the kind of person who would fit a welfare rep. And they've done that, and they're very good. But more people should be trained, I think more than just, you know, the two people who identify as, who are welfare reps. They should give everyone some sort of training on managing stress and coping with pressure and stuff. And do you feel the same, Sofia, judging by what you were saying when you approached somebody and said, I'm going through my exams, this is really hard. Do you feel that if everybody was given training to listen, a little bit of counselling, training themselves? Because counseling is not just about a therapist talking and identifying, it's also listening effectively and then being able to guide the person. Do you think that's useful for most people? Definitely. Like, not even just for exams, like, for life situations, because, yeah, if everyone has the skills to listen and help if the other person needs it, I feel like things would be a lot, like, better, less stressful. But, yeah, especially with exams. Like we had in my school, we had, like, we had, like, an office for, like, students who were, you know, feeling anxious and stuff like that. And, you know, I'm sure they were trying their best, but it just seemed unorganized most of the time. It just seemed a bit, I guess, chaotic in a sense, because they had to kind of keep an eye and kind of try and help so many people. And there was only a couple of people who were trained to do it, to, like, actually do it and help. So I feel like if there. If people were to get, like, trained, more and more people to get trained, it would help, like, just, like, I guess, globally, in a sense, because. Yeah. And help each other understand. Yeah, exactly. That you. That you. I would have thought that with this sort of what I find when I'm dealing with clients Particularly, and what I love about that work that I do, that actually, I can't separate the work I do as a psychotherapist from my friends or from the business world I'm in, because everything is about listening on the different levels with people. Everybody has levels. And this is the joy of art, this is the joy of theatre, this is the joy of books, this is the joy of the work that both of you do. You know, sort of in the world of the arts, you know, theatre, plays, film, all have different levels. And the characterizations or the people that sit in front of me or that I'm with, all have multiple levels that they are dealing with, whether it's a pressure from younger years or external social pressure or something that has been bothering them, or an emotional pressure where they're not only trying to do their exams. As you're talking about, Sophia, it's who are you pleasing at that time? Is it for you? Do you feel you've got to do it or else you won't get on in society? Or are your parents saying something? Or is somebody's parents saying something? Or, you know, the rest of the school saying something? How will you get on? Will you be able to get your next job? And so on? And I think it's. There's so many different factions here. And I do think that we are complicated. Of course we are. We're human beings. But I think that we become more sophisticated as time goes on and to understand the different levels that we are on as human beings. Once we understand ourselves, we can understand others. And you've both sort of identified a certain area within yourselves of how you deal with stress. But I was doing my Speak youk Mind in front of a lot of people. It was a panel before we weren't allowed to go out. And I did it in a quite casual environment because I wanted people to start talking about mental health. Because I've always felt that certain areas of mental health are not really tackled. And again, it's not there because people have got to think about it in a different way. That's my perception. But one of the stories that I. Or one of the themes that we can discuss. One of the themes that I wanted to talk to everybody about was the hero's journey. Now, the hero's journey is a theme that is embedded in a number of stories. You know, the Greek mythology was full of the hero's journey. And then Star wars, the hero's journey was taken in that and the Matrix. But essentially what I was pointing out is that we've all got a starting point in life and suddenly you realize, oh, my goodness, this is what I'm good at and this is what I'm not good at. And sometimes you can't even identify. It's almost the world identifies it for you. And part of it is exams, part of it is relationships, part of it is friendships, part of it's family. Somebody's always saying something to you. You're not good at this, are you? Or you're weak at that. But also, we do identify within ourselves. And sometimes you get, you know, in psychotherapy they say if you don't deal with your own stuff, the world is going to help you deal with it yourself, if it's meant to be. Because I believe we've got a soul that runs through us like a river. And, you know, if we're meant to deal with a part of ourselves, then you're meant to deal with it. For example, when I was a teenager, I wanted to work in psychiatry because I helped at what was called a mental asylum at that time, a massive one in Leavesden, which I think is very close to where Tom Cruise is filming at the moment. And, you know, and I also wanted to work in the theatre, and my father said no to both. But because they were part of me and who I wanted to be, I eventually went into both of those areas, although he wanted me to be a teacher, and I ended up teaching English and drama and learning in those areas. So there's something within us that is unique and has a calling or something that suits us. As you were saying, Sofia, film as opposed to acting and so on. But in the Hero's Journey, we're given things to accomplish throughout life and everybody has this and you have the highs and lows. And then eventually, I think our world is that you look back and say, oh, my goodness, I did manage to do that. Much like your starting point with your maths or your English that you turned around. And I think if people were to understand this sort of trajectory in life, that there is something that comes up, there is a pressure, and if you go over. Get over that point, you get over that obstacle, the 12, you know, sort of Herculean, Herculean obstacles, you know, the challenges in life, once we understand that they exist, do you think that would make life easier? Just that understanding of this is life, this is how it happens, things happen and you've got to overcome them. Do you think just that starting point is a useful starting point for people? I think that it's interesting. It's going to be helpful in the way that if you look at it like a Herculean like story or like the Odyssey for example, you have an ending that is going to, you have like a happy ending that you're working towards that justifies, it's a means to an end. Right. You're justifying going through, slaying that creature, protecting that town. But like as you made the reference to the Herculean stories, Hercules, the king who Hercules was serving, just kept giving him more and more trials and finding ways to like take away his achievements and stuff like that. And I think there's an, to an extent you have to understand that trying to go over and complete all of these trials and stuff, sometimes some of these can be more, do more harm than good. You need to figure out your own limits and you need to know when it's okay to take a step back, take a breath, maybe talk to someone. Like trying to do like these heroes journeys never really happen by themselves. There's always people around them to help them through. So like comparing yourself to a hero, like a one man team to yourself is never going to end well. And I think you also need to realize sometimes you aren't going to be able to do all these things, which is, can be depressing sometimes to be like, oh my dream, blah, blah. But I think by appreciating and knowing that then you can start to focus more on what you can do rather than trying to push yourself past the point into burnout. You can start to be like, okay, what can I do? And start to shift your mindset into a. I don't need to go on this magnificent, fantastic quest and do all these things. Sometimes it's enough just to, you know, travel there and do this and do that and be content with that. Yeah. Do you see that, Sophia? Do you feel the same? Yeah, like kind of going back to the topic of exams again with stuff like that. We're always kind of told from a young age, okay, well you, you get good grades in your exams, then you get a job and you get rich, you get a car, you get a house. We, we've been, I've been told that from a very young age, you know, do good in school, pass your exams, you know, get your dream job. But like, I don't know, it just feels like in the sense of if so if my parents in another life wanted me to be a mathematician, there is no way I could be a mathematician. Like and you know, I would look back and go, well, I can't do that. I physically Cannot do that. What am I good at? Okay, I'm all right. Acting. Let's go into that. So it's that sort of thing of kind of what Joel is saying of the whole thing of you need. Yeah, you do need to kind of realize your strengths. You need to realize your weaknesses, but not see your weaknesses as a bad thing. Like, it's not gonna, you know, kind of drag you down for like, your whole life. Like, I'm. Like, I'm not devastated that I'm not the best at maths. Like, I've just kind of had to accept it. And I feel like that's something quite good as well in the sense of pressure, just accepting, like, your faults, like, okay, I'm not good at this, but it's okay. And the whole concept of. Sorry, continue. No, I was just going to say because very often that's assuming you have your support group around you, family, friends, that will accept that. But equally, there are certain people who are born into, say, mathematicians. They actually don't want to do maths. They want to be an artist, and they just don't fit in. And so they create a Persona, what they call the false self, to support, you know, to please everybody else. And then suddenly that starts cracking. And that's where a lot of the pressure comes in, I think, for people. And they often can't see that. Do you think, though, that schools. I don't want to harp on about schools too much because I want to move on to how theatre and plays and that experience can help understanding pressure, but also to help understand the world and life. But do you think schools would do better if they really highlighted your strengths so you were exceptional at your strengths as opposed to trying to build up your weaker points all the time? I mean, I feel like with schools, they should definitely highlight students strengths more. But I don't think, and this just might be my kind of black or white point of view, I feel like it's a sort of sense of they should highlight strengths, but they shouldn't. They shouldn't say to students, you're fantastic at this when they're not, like, fantastic at it. That might give a false sense of hope and security when it might not be there. I think one of the issues as well is schools, to an extent. I mean, it depends, because they're trying to get people ready for the real world, which I'm using air quotes for the issue with that. And yes, they don't really teach us about finances or, you know, like, other. Other things that can be important. But with the subject wise, right, you need to do math and English and you need to do some form of science and you need to do these things that give you a base to enter the world. The issue is a lot of people don't really fit into those molds and they don't necessarily want like that people aren't necessarily good at maths or science or that, that they might be crazy good at acting, they might be fantastic at history, they might be like, like the best artist that anyone's ever seen. But those like, maybe not so much history, but like the arts and stuff aren't taking it seriously because they're not seen as a viable option in like in the world to like do. In the society that we're in, you're seen as knuckle down, put your head down, go into this. This is a respectable, sustainable job that you won't have to like work for. But if you. Yeah, exactly. If you're going into like acting or art or stuff, that's a very rocky road. You're gonna have to fight a lot to keep your place and you have to be exceptionally talented and all this kind of stuff. So trickling down to like secondary school level, those aren't really emphasized or seen as just as important in terms of the resources allotted, in terms of the like the, you know, all the stuff that goes into it. So I think we can't start. We have to kind of take a step back and think, okay, if we want to be pushing people to do better at what they're good at, make them feel good about that and push them forward, then we need to look at this kind of hierarchy of subjects that we've created within the school system and maybe start to shake things up a bit and maybe add a few more things in that might actually help people. Like a finance class on how to deal with a mortgage. Because I don't know how to do that, I don't know how to pay my taxes. We don't get taught that. Everyone does it, but no one gets taught it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's the practical things that are missing. And do you think, and this is, this might be too tricky for you to answer, but schools must have a lot of pressure on them. Do you think that we need to engage with younger people in a different way so that, you know, sort of. Not that parents can always help because there's always. They're dealing with their own lives, but there should be some sort of life school that can, you can tap into, that can teach you a little bit More. Right, I want to know a bit more about mortgages. Or do you think it should be done within a sort of more friendly social framework so that you could, you know, sort of either when you're out in the pub or you're out, you know, socializing, you can go in and listen to a talk. Which, which is the best format that could work then. Or do you think theatres should be used in that way? Because at the moment. I'm not talking about at the moment, but, you know, sort of theaters are used in the evenings, but for rehearsal during the days, but often they're empty. And could you, you know, sort of. Would you go to somebody that's talking about your life outside school, outside family? This is the stuff that you can, can happen to you, where you're actually asking questions at the same time. Is that something you might engage in? I personally feel like, because, like, a lot of schools have like tutor and form, and I feel like maybe there should be something in those, like form sessions. Even if it's like 10 minutes a day or 10 minutes every two days or something like that. Just something that kind of goes, okay, look, we're looking at mortgages. Like, here's the basics. If you have any other questions, you can go on this website that gives you a full list of like, you know, all the details. You can talk to this person here. Like, because I feel like with some, especially with like young teenagers as well, I feel like, I mean, I know I was a. I was a bit like this when I was younger. If it was something like extracurricular that I thought was going to be like, I'm doing air quotes here, boring, I wouldn't have gone, yeah. So I do feel like with. If you do it in form, where students literally have to sit there, you know, it might make more of an impact. But then again, there's the issue of they might not, they just might not be listening because they don't care. Yeah. And I think what was said about theater and using theater was an interesting point because I remember one of the most educational things that I ever learned in the PC lessons, which is like form and like learning about life was through a musical that came to my school that was talking about topics that we hadn't spoken about properly before. Like, it was all about sex education, like consent work, like, relationships, like, you know, first time sexuality. All that kind of stuff was packaged into this musical and it was all like, like these things are supposed to be awkward, but they did it in a funny way, in an engaging way that Got people to listen, see, learn and I think what else is like, you know, theater been useful but to convey stories on a personal level and get people to empathize and understand these things. So why can't they be used in an educational purpose to kind of break down these taboos within that system within like, like secondary school and stuff like that, to then begin these dialogues and conversations? Yeah, and I think there's so many wonderful stories out there are people reading less and relying then on film to take over. And there are. That transition between film and the book hasn't quite happened. And this is where theatre can come in. Just as you were saying Joel, about you know, watching something, did it actually promote discussion? Definitely. I think a lot of the students coming out were like whoa, I didn't know that or I wasn't aware of that. And then at the end of the day I think kids and children and teenagers like to an extent are curious about life, about what's happening around them. And I think they're going to figure things out, whether it be through Googling random things on the Internet, rumors in school or through an actual proper source of like researched and educational dialogue. And a good way to reach that is I think to be in an engaging way could be through an interesting film or through theatre. And I think one of the issues at like my school after that play happened, there was a lot of information that was given to us that was packaged in the finely tuned, like little Christmas presents if you will, considering the time. And they didn't do anything about it. The school didn't really talk about it or do breakout rooms or have those discussions further because I don't think the teachers felt comfortable and knew quite how to approach that because I don't know if they had the training to because it's not really integral to our systems. Teachers don't need that training to be able to talk about that stuff. And Sophia, have you experienced anything like that at your school, that sort of training about sexual contact, sexual relationships? We, in our, in my, in my school we had one thing which was a theater performance again and it was about like drug usage. But when it came to. I remember we got shown these videos in like year seven or year eight and they just, they just what? They, you could tell they just weren't, they didn't have the amount of kind of passion and thought they needed behind them, let's put it like that, about consent and stuff like that because people just started joking about it and like anti bullying videos that people were showing people would Start joking about it. And you know, there was this consent video that was about a cup of tea. Like if someone's asleep, don't give them a cup of tea. And they were kind of sugarcoating the reality of everything. And I feel like I'm still fairly new to film in general. I'm still like fairly new to understanding everything about it. But my, my kind of point here really is if films are in my opinion a great way to kind of portray something to, you know, you want to tell a story that, you know, cuts from here to there, you want to go into someone's memories and come back out, you can do it in a film eas. So I feel like with films you can basically portray anything you kind of want to. So why can't people make films that have passion in them? Not even long films, short films that have passion in them to be shown to schools about these topics. And maybe there is like, you know, once again, I'm new to film, maybe there is and my school just didn't see them. But I just feel like if these films, like these anti bullying films, these consent films that are being shown around schools, if they actually had this passion and treated teenagers like adults, that's a big thing. If they treat teenagers like adults. I feel like, not to use like a math metaphor, like sorry to fear in advance, but in terms of these social situations, they're teaching us how to use basic addition when life is just full of a bunch of quadratic equations, right. Like they're saying, oh yes, it's easy, there's just one plus one equals two. When you have to like go and deal with x squared plus, you know, y squared equals 3x plus 2y. Like more complex situations in life that were just not like. And then they expect us to be able to apply the knowledge that we have from those like little videos and then be able to adapt them to this, this like complex nuanced situation that is life. And I think it's just, it's unreasonable and they're just treating us like we're not going to have to deal with those things when people will do. Yeah, because what has changed quite substantially, especially at the moment is all the structures that were in place have now gone. So there's almost an emotional and a psychological free for all happening out there there that, you know, you are engaging in situations that frankly you may not have engaged in at such an early age with people and you need to be able to understand what is going on for you. And it sounds as if weather schools can't do it because they're too afraid. And teachers just don't have the same experience, which they may not. So do you think, though, coming back to plays and books, you know, when you look at the classics, you know, the Shakespeare or Dickens, why they have carried on through time and we talked about Greek mythology, that gave you a snapshot of the depth and intensity of psychology. So you say, for example, with Charles Dickens, you know, sort of we have various characters in there that you sort of hang on to, like the Bill Sykes in Oliver, or you've got Miss Havisham in Great Expectations, or one of my favorites is Uriah Heep, you know, in David Copperfield, you know, the one that actually squeezes into his way into his master's, you know, business and then takes over eventually, you know. And these are all wonderful characterizations that do we underestimate the knowledge that younger people have the understanding that you have of psychology, you know, what's there. You understand that there's betrayal on one level and love on another, but they can all happen simultaneously. Do you think that people are just underestimating you? I definitely think so. Like, I think I knew from quite a young age that life is complicated. Like, things aren't simple. And another thing as well is kids are growing up a lot quicker. Kid, like, kids are growing up a lot, lot quicker. Like, I have young niece and nephews, and they're growing up so quickly. Like, my nephew is 8 and, you know, he's asking me for an iPhone 12. So, you know, they're growing up quicker and in the sense of, you know, kids should understand that like this about the world and especially with characters like Bill Sykes, because although he's seen as this not dastardly villain, there are still people like Bill Sykes out in the world that we need to be aware of. Like, they could be hiding behind a suit and tie, but we need to be aware of. Of, you know, these people. And I feel like kids, you know, watching, like, watching Oliver, like I was in Oliver when I was about eight, you know, watching Oliver and watching a form of entertainment that is funny and will make you laugh, but still learning about there are bad people in this world. You need to be careful. I think that there are, first of all, all these works, one of the main reasons they have stood the test of time is obviously they are masterfully written, like Shakespeare, Dickens, you know, these things have made it this far because they were done beautifully and they do, I think, express there is with storytelling. Why people engage with it is because there's something that they empathize with, whether it be in an emotion or some interesting like story, like the betrayal, hate, love. Like these themes are integral to the human experience and these pieces of work do well at capturing them and putting them in a format that's really interesting. I would, however, say that at least from, at least speaking from my generation, people would not as easily engage with these works because there is that kind of barrier of context that we don't get because it's from a different time and language. Like, for example, Shakespeare in English. And there was one like, like. But media still does, still is able to break down those social norms and walls that it did back then, like with Dickens and with, with Shakespeare. Like I recently watched a series on BBC called I may destroy you. And I, safe to say, was destroyed. It was so good at talking about issues about like, as we kind of mentioned earlier, like, like breaching on things like, like consent and, and understanding oneself and trauma and things like that that I think are become. Are very contextual to this time. Like concepts that have really like, taken the forefront of our society. And so that's why I think it's good to look at the greats, look at, look at where we've come from. And it's quite easy to empathize with those emotions. But you don't get the nuance unless you study these texts greatly or you're watching something from now and you're seeing like, what's happening and what's coming up and you kind of can understand the, the context because you're inherently, like. It's inherently feeding into your brain as you live and live in this society. So do you think then, I mean, we are living in a time of media. You know, you've got media, we're all living computers. You've got YouTube, you've got television, you've got so many channels. Do you think they're doing us a disservice then? Because they are not really engaging in the depth of emotion that juxtaposes itself, you know, like you've got sibling rivalry that if you, if you look in the Bible that is echoed through. There is some classical sort of conflicts that always reappear in life. Sibling rivalry or greed, envy, vanity, you know, lust, you know, all those. What's it, the seven deadly sins, if you like. And do you think that writers and filmmakers need to engage more with those so that you can explore that as well? I mean, I believe that in. I believe that from some of the films I've seen. I feel like Some writers and directors are doing it already really well. Like, I've seen films that, you know, have. Have. Have had some very dark scenes in them, and I've been like, wow, the way that they've kind of executed that and put this onto a screen, like they've put it on so. Not delicately, in a sense, but they've just done it so well to portray this darkness. Yeah. And, you know, I watched a film recently that, you know, made. I'm quite emotional with films. And there was this film I watched recently, and it took me about five minutes after the film ended, and I was thinking about it, just, just thinking about it, and then I, like, started crying about it because it had left such a. Like a mental impact that I was just thinking about it and thinking about it. And I find it amazing that films can, you know, get people to think so intensely about these different subjects. I think media in itself, like, I can't. I can't really. I mean, you can. You can talk about something and criticize it, but the media. Media has given me the ability to fill in the gaps that the. Our education system has. Hasn't been able to teach me. Right. Like, it gives resources and information, but it's also created a lot of the pressures that the education system is not able to deal with. Like, it's created a lot of new pressures for young people, new situations that have just never been a thing before. So I think the main issue with media is it's oversaturated. Like Sophia was saying, there are perfect, really good films at dealing with these things, but a lot of people haven't come across them because there's 80,000 other films that you could watch instead. Yeah, like. Like a lot of. There are films that are made for cash grabs or films that are made because they're just cool to look at. Like, it's. You have to look and you have to be able to wade through all of this media to find what you enjoy. And that skill isn't something that's taught. It's something you have to learn and. And it's difficult to learn. And I can't even say that I'm that good at it because I'm very easily distracted by that and that and that. So as is human nature. So, yeah, I would say, I think we are coming to the end of this program, which has been inspiring. Both of you are absolutely sensational young minds, intelligent, articulate, exciting. And I just wanted to say that from my point of view, listening to you, definitely there's that saying of feel the fear and do it anyway, which you two exemplify. And I just wanted to say thank you so much, Sophia Nicodemo and Joel Aston, for joining me today. It's been absolutely sensational, and I just hope enough people listening to you talking about your world and our world, in fact, and how we can all work together would be sensational. So thank you so much for joining me today.